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Post by Sand 🎃 on Jan 11, 2022 6:06:52 GMT -5
tema — Please refrain from posting on this thread any further. If you wish to continue your debate with Saint Ambrosef — as long as she is comfortable with it, go into PMs. You’ve been snarky, rude, and acting in bad faith which all break forum rules. Please don’t post any further. Thanks.
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#FF55A3
Name Colour
Apricity
Bravelands is too slept on.
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Post by Apricity on Jan 12, 2022 2:39:10 GMT -5
I wasn't sure of my opinion before, but I have one now after reading through this thread. How I'm seeing it, Frecklewish at the river was hoping for the kits to die. And she justifies herself walking away when she sees the RiverClan patrol, thinking whether the kits lived or died wasn't her concern or would be her fault as well. Then when faced with the fact that they actually died, she feels remorse. And Frecklewish attacks Mapleshade not only for her brother, but also when Mapleshade's accusations hit close to home. It is at least in the book that Frecklewish didn't care enough to stick around until she could confirm Mapleshade and her kits fate, so that's part of where I got this from. I've never been in this situation, so I can't say for sure. But I can't imagine walking away, even if I couldn't do anything, until I know they're okay or not. So yes, I am leaning more towards she belongs in the Dark Forest. But why, why, why not Oakstar?
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 12, 2022 11:41:45 GMT -5
No, Frecklewish DOES NOT deserve to be in the darkforest. She just grieves for her brother mostly. Because when she found out Mapleshade's kits' father was the one who killed her brother she devastated. If you look through her perspective you'll understand, she just really cares for her brother and is furious and upset to found out Mapleshade lied to her. Even tho she called Mapleshade's kits "half-clan creautures" was harsh, but when she found out the truth of course she'll react that way. She did see Mapleshade and her kits struggle in the river. You might think "HAHA let's watch these kits drown". I mean she maybe could've help the kits? Since it's part of the warrior code to save a kit in need in danger even from a different clan. But she maybe thought Mapleshade's kits were gonna be saved from the RiverCan cats? So i'm trusting Frecklewish on that despise what she said or did or reacted.
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 12, 2022 12:24:49 GMT -5
It could've been Oakstar Mapleshade should've killed tho
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Post by Cheetahstar on Jan 12, 2022 12:42:23 GMT -5
Frecklewish when she sees helpless kits just trying to survive
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jan 12, 2022 12:42:34 GMT -5
It could've been Oakstar Mapleshade should've killed tho You have to remember that Oakstar had more than 1 life, to kill him would be much more difficult. Though he did play probably the biggest outsider role for the kits death. I always thought that slowly killing Frecklewish was Mapleshade's way to get back at Oakstar, because the two cats he loved most are now dead.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 12, 2022 13:48:17 GMT -5
It could've been Oakstar Mapleshade should've killed tho dont forget, frecklewish cried for them all to be exiled. the same thing oakstar actually had the authority to carry out...frecklewish isnt better than him....
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 12, 2022 19:25:05 GMT -5
You actually have a point
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 12, 2022 19:25:26 GMT -5
Ohh alright
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 7:26:59 GMT -5
But like- Mapleshade could've killed Oakstar instead of Frecklewish, after knowing that frecklewish watched her kits drowned she was devastated and furious that her loved ones (her kits) died, so maybe she could've killed Oakstar? Having Frecklewish's loved once taken away for Mapleshade to have her understand how it feels for her loved ones taken away making Frecklewish have nobody left, hopefully my point comes across
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 7:31:18 GMT -5
But, it'll be difficult for Mapleshade to kill him
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Post by downfalls on Jan 13, 2022 11:14:55 GMT -5
as much as im neutral on frecklewish and mapleshade is one of my favorites, i feel that the frecklewish being sent to the dark forest thing was unfair. by that logic, oakstar should've been sent to the df for kicking them and their mother out to bring them to their real father, which would have broken the warrior code in a way.
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 11:41:48 GMT -5
True
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 11:45:21 GMT -5
I'm not defending Oakstar on behalf of this situation at all he's a leader, he should've known better it wasn't the kits fault for for their birth he maybe could've let them stay? but I don't think it makes sense, because he's furious at the kits and Mapleshade because she lied about their father was Birchface instead the real father was Appledusk the one who KILLED Birchface 'accidentally' But not sure is this includes in this topic at all, but in Goosefeather's curse Oakstar is described as a noble leader
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 13, 2022 11:46:14 GMT -5
question:
i've seen a few comments over the course of this thread where some users seem to suggest that Oakstar's exile was in itself as bad as killing the kits/essentially sending them to die. but is exile necessarily such a death sentence? like yeah, as a single mother with three kits, living outside the clan is definitely rougher and more dangerous. but that's a common reality for most rogue and loner mothers like Sasha and Petalnose, so it's not impossible odds.
this isn't questioning whether oakstar did wrong, by the way. just doubting that exile is equivalent to a death sentence as a few people have implied.
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 11:56:17 GMT -5
Saint AmbrosefI never really thought of it as a death sentence Oakstar couldn't just let them stay after Mapleshade lied and knew the truth from Ravenwing THAT Mapleshade lied that the father was Birchface like I said up there he couldn't accept them because Appledusk was "killed" Birchface and Appledusk was THE FATHER who clearly killed Birchface's son, and because Mapleshade lied and the kits were half clan and how she broke the warrior code Mapleshade was insensetive she brought it on her self
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 13, 2022 12:01:09 GMT -5
question: i've seen a few comments over the course of this thread where some users seem to suggest that Oakstar's exile was in itself as bad as killing the kits/essentially sending them to die. but is exile necessarily such a death sentence? like yeah, as a single mother with three kits, living outside the clan is definitely rougher and more dangerous. but that's a common reality for most rogue and loner mothers like Sasha and Petalnose, so it's not impossible odds. this isn't questioning whether oakstar did wrong, by the way. just doubting that exile is equivalent to a death sentence as a few people have implied. I think that it is very bad in context of a torrential rainstorm wherein hypothermia is a real concern. Exile in and of itself would not be so bad if they had time to prepare and to leave the camp at a better time, but the timing was very harsh. Rogue mothers survive on their own, but they also don't make a habit of exhausting their kits before a storm and then not having any shelter to go to. That said, I do think it's an interesting point that Oakstar ends up being a degree removed from the actual responsibility for their deaths. He led to the situation and what he did was wrong, but I can see the argument that while he led them to be in danger, there was enough gray area that it's possible for it to not be considered associated with a death sentence.
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 13:34:26 GMT -5
But all we can do is blame Mapleshade for being insensetive and not carefully cautious of her actions
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 13, 2022 13:59:25 GMT -5
But all we can do is blame Mapleshade for being insensetive and not carefully cautious of her actions I don't think that's true. I think Mapleshade was stupidly naive, and she shoulders a lot of blame for the predicament she found herself in. But that doesn't mean we can't judge the other characters as too harsh in their assessment of the situation.
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 14:17:13 GMT -5
But all we can do is blame Mapleshade for being insensetive and not carefully cautious of her actions I don't think that's true. I think Mapleshade was stupidly naive, and she shoulders a lot of blame for the predicament she found herself in. But that doesn't mean we can't judge the other characters as too harsh in their assessment of the situation. You do have a point, but she should've know what she was doing she can't just expect "A happy ever after" she also mentioned to Appledusk in Mapleshade's vengeance, that when the kits were fully accepted she'll tell the rest of the clan and has "great faith in starclan" But that caused trouble for her kits anyway however as I criticize Mapleshade we have others judging her also if she would've been aware of her actions she wouldn't be in this mess I do not pity Mapleshade nor have sympathy i'm still on my side of opinion tho
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Post by Cheetahstar on Jan 13, 2022 15:05:56 GMT -5
he exiled them during a storm thats uh
really bad
also hi to any youtubers reading this x3
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 13, 2022 15:25:50 GMT -5
he exiled them during a storm thats uh really bad Technically, he didn't. It started raining after they left the camp. Although Oakstar could probably tell it was about to rain, there were no signs of a particularly bad storm -- the narration never mentions wind, thunder, etc. It's not even a storm, just a heavy rainfall.
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 15:30:19 GMT -5
he exiled them during a storm thats uh really bad also hi to any youtubers reading this x3 It really wasn't a storm, there was no evidence that trace there was the storm I think you got mixed up with the river flooding or sm when Mapleshade tried to cross the river with her kits
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 13, 2022 15:33:36 GMT -5
I'm also not sure I buy "it was going to storm" as justification for the claim that exiling her and the kits was a death sentence. If Mapleshade wasn't intent on crossing the river to RiverClan, she could have just as well lead the kits outside ThunderClan territory and found a bush to shelter under until the rain passed. Plunging the kits in the cold river water was more likely to give them hypothermia than rain.
EDIT: Again, not saying exiling them was fair. Just that to me, I'm having a hard time seeing their exile as particularly dangerous to the point of accusing Oakstar of indirect murder.
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Post by ✦ GreatSwiftFoxz太阳的✦ on Jan 13, 2022 15:43:38 GMT -5
I'm also not sure I buy "it was going to storm" as justification for the claim that exiling her and the kits was a death sentence. If Mapleshade wasn't intent on crossing the river to RiverClan, she could have just as well lead the kits outside ThunderClan territory and found a bush to shelter under until the rain passed. Plunging the kits in the cold river water was more likely to give them hypothermia than rain. EDIT: Again, not saying exiling them was fair. Just that to me, I'm having a hard time seeing their exile as particularly dangerous to the point of accusing Oakstar of indirect murder. Frankly I suppose, in the book the kits were at least approximately "two moons old"Mapleshade was small-minded without thinking and lead her kits to the river to get across was stupid the kits weren't at the appropriate age to come across Also, If Mapleshade sheltered herself in the bushes on ThunderClan territory Frecklewish who followed her to make sure she leaved her territory and when she find Mapleshade sheltering on their territory..you know Frecklewish's reaction..
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 13, 2022 15:43:48 GMT -5
he exiled them during a storm thats uh really bad Technically, he didn't. It started raining after they left the camp. Although Oakstar could probably tell it was about to rain, there were no signs of a particularly bad storm -- the narration never mentions wind, thunder, etc. It's not even a storm, just a heavy rainfall. Having reread it, you're right. There wasn't even any rain until they had left camp. I do think this makes Oakstar's decision, if cruel and prejudiced, also not as evil as is often thought. From his perspective, they weren't in any great danger of death. I think this perspective also absolves Ravenwing of some blame, as he was in the same boat of not knowing the danger they were in. It also makes Frecklewish stand out more, as she was the only one to actually follow her into the rainstorm, see the danger they were in, and not lift a paw That said, I don't think Mapleshade could have just sheltered under a bush. She'd have to leave Thunderclan territory, which is either the Twoleg place with all of its dangers, Shadowclan which involves crossing the Thunderpath, Four Trees which is bare of cover, or Windclan which is also bare of cover. Riverclan isn't a bad decision under those circumstances
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 13, 2022 19:54:59 GMT -5
Technically, he didn't. It started raining after they left the camp. Although Oakstar could probably tell it was about to rain, there were no signs of a particularly bad storm -- the narration never mentions wind, thunder, etc. It's not even a storm, just a heavy rainfall. Having reread it, you're right. There wasn't even any rain until they had left camp. I do think this makes Oakstar's decision, if cruel and prejudiced, also not as evil as is often thought. From his perspective, they weren't in any great danger of death. I think this perspective also absolves Ravenwing of some blame, as he was in the same boat of not knowing the danger they were in. It also makes Frecklewish stand out more, as she was the only one to actually follow her into the rainstorm, see the danger they were in, and not lift a paw That said, I don't think Mapleshade could have just sheltered under a bush. She'd have to leave Thunderclan territory, which is either the Twoleg place with all of its dangers, Shadowclan which involves crossing the Thunderpath, Four Trees which is bare of cover, or Windclan which is also bare of cover. Riverclan isn't a bad decision under those circumstances Fair point, I can see that.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Jan 13, 2022 21:32:12 GMT -5
O o p
my bad
Though
*cracks fingers and googles*
Your cat can use its heightened senses to detect when a storm is brewing. ... Cats and many other animals are more sensitive than humans to sounds, smells and changes in atmospheric pressure, and their heightened senses can allow them to pick up hints that a storm is coming well before their owners catch wind of it.
but yeah
that was my bad, as the cats in the books never show this ability that their real ife counter parks have
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 13, 2022 21:46:43 GMT -5
O o p my bad Though *cracks fingers and googles* Your cat can use its heightened senses to detect when a storm is brewing. ... Cats and many other animals are more sensitive than humans to sounds, smells and changes in atmospheric pressure, and their heightened senses can allow them to pick up hints that a storm is coming well before their owners catch wind of it. but yeah that was my bad, as the cats in the books never show this ability that their real ife counter parks have To be fair, real life cats also are able to see in the dark well, whereas this doesn't seem to be the case in the books.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 13, 2022 21:51:26 GMT -5
real cats also have natural swimming ability just like dogs but warriors wants to say "only riverclan cats can swim"
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