|
Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 9, 2022 23:15:35 GMT -5
I think the two sides here are living in two separate realities, so your arguments are missing each other. The anti-Frecklewish crowd is using Mapleshade's story (the one presented as canon by the article) as evidence, while the pro-Frecklewish side is just going "We don't know that for sure!". Y'all aren't gonna get anywhere when you can't agree on the objective events.
This is why Word of God articles suck. The book is ambiguous, but at least people can agree on the objective events. Now we have half of people using WoG evidence while the other half resolutely refuses to hear it (understandably). It just creates an effing mine field.
|
|
Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
|
Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 9, 2022 23:33:19 GMT -5
I think the two sides here are living in two separate realities, so your arguments are missing each other. The anti-Frecklewish crowd is using Mapleshade's story (the one presented as canon by the article) as evidence, while the pro-Frecklewish side is just going "We don't know that for sure!". Y'all aren't gonna get anywhere when you can't agree on the objective events. This is why Word of God articles suck. The book is ambiguous, but at least people can agree on the objective events. Now we have half of people using WoG evidence while the other half resolutely refuses to hear it (understandably). It just creates an effing mine field. MV is intentionally written to be vague and ambiguous in order for Mapleshade to be able to fill in the blanks with warped manifestations of false realities that may or may not hold any actual truth to them in order to anchor her motivations and rationalize going on a killing spree for revenge. She’s meant to be seen as an unreliable narrator that’s unhinged and has warped sense of reality that doesn’t show any remorse for her murders,m. It what makes her such a great and sinister villain imo. But by criminalizing the victims it’s quintessentially devaluing the heinous weight of her crimes, and start to wonder if even Mapleshade belongs in The Dark Forest if she was just exacting revenge on criminals that needed to be taken down. Only thing that article accomplishes is contradicting everything that Victoria Holmes wrote in MV, and has spoken out about the book afterwards and what happened to all Mapleshade’s Victims and that they made it to Starclan. Which only plausible reason I can see behind the change, is because their going to use Frecklewish as a villain in ASC, so they can have yet another controversial character return for the next arc imo. It my come true or not, just my theory.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 9, 2022 23:48:07 GMT -5
after reading frecklewish's wiki page again, i've got some questions and accusations. i'm starting to believe she never even loved the kits before the reveal. she only saw them as gifts for her own benefit. she even brags, saying "wait until riverclan hears about the kits" as if she wants to use them as a weapon to make riverclan feel bad for killing their supposed father birchface. she never saw them as actual kits to love. only as tools for her own gratification.
as soon as she is told they're not her brother's, her so called "love" instantly turns into full on hatred. she outright dehumanizes the kits by calling them "half-clan creatures" (dehumanizing is the best word to use despite them being cats. she's basically saying they're not even worthy to be called cats at all).
and i have a question: why was she at the river in the first place? let me know if im missing some context in the actual novella text. however, to me, she was only there to further chase them out despite mapleshade and the kits already being distressed...once she saw what was happening, she stopped her pursuit to just sit back and watch. i can almost see her taking some kind of satisfaction in it...it doesnt invalidate her words that she "didnt mean" to let them drown...what if she was just at the river in the first place to scare them off some more and didnt intend to physically harm? why else would she have followed them and been able to have a view of the drowning?
anyways, thats my take. the article reinforces my bias: frecklewish DOES belong there.
|
|
|
Post by Hollyfall on Jan 10, 2022 0:18:20 GMT -5
I've gone through the book and complied the few scenes we have about Frecklewish watching the kits cross the river. So take it how you will.
Mapleshade learning about Frecklewish watching the event from Nettlepaw:
Actually, Mapleshade herself later thinks:
Mapleshade confronts Frecklewish at Snakerocks:
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 10, 2022 1:26:14 GMT -5
I think the two sides here are living in two separate realities, so your arguments are missing each other. The anti-Frecklewish crowd is using Mapleshade's story (the one presented as canon by the article) as evidence, while the pro-Frecklewish side is just going "We don't know that for sure!". Y'all aren't gonna get anywhere when you can't agree on the objective events. This is why Word of God articles suck. The book is ambiguous, but at least people can agree on the objective events. Now we have half of people using WoG evidence while the other half resolutely refuses to hear it (understandably). It just creates an effing mine field. MV is intentionally written to be vague and ambiguous in order for Mapleshade be able to fill in the blanks with warped manifestations of false realities that may or may not hold any actual truth to them in order to anchor her motivations and rationalize going on a killing spree for revenge. She’s meant to be seen as an unreliable narrator that’s unhinged and has warped sense of reality that doesn’t show any remorse for her murders,m. It what makes her such a great and sinister villain imo. But by criminalizing the victims it’s quintessentially devaluing the heinous weight of her crimes, and start to wonder if even Mapleshade belongs in The Dark Forest if she was just exacting revenge on criminals that needed to be taken down. Only thing that article accomplishes is contradicting everything that Victoria Holmes wrote in MV, and has spoken out about the book afterwards and what happened to all Mapleshade’s Victims and that they made it to Starclan. Which only plausible reason I can see behind the change, is because their going to use Frecklewish as a villain in ASC, so they can have yet another controversial character return for the next arc imo. It my come true or not, just my theory. I actually agree with you. Just saying if you don't consider the article canon, you're going to have a hard time arguing against someone who does, that's all.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 10, 2022 1:35:07 GMT -5
I've gone through the book and complied the few scenes we have about Frecklewish watching the kits cross the river. So take it how you will. Mapleshade learning about Frecklewish watching the event from Nettlepaw: Actually, Mapleshade herself later thinks: Mapleshade confronts Frecklewish at Snakerocks: (quoting just so the book citations are in this post, not actually a response to Hollyfall) So the objective events we know happened (according to JUST the book): - Frecklewish followed Mapleshade to the river - Frecklewish saw Mapleshade fall off the stepping stones - She also saw a RiverClan patrol on the shore at some undisclosed time either before or after Mapleshade slipped
That's it. Everything else people are throwing out (she watched them drown, she did/didn't call for help, she did/didn't try to save them) is a guess, not actually stated to be the case in book. Obviously she either did something or did nothing, but the point is we don't know (and that is the point. Of the entire book actually) Going on to the article, we now know which was the case: she watched the kits drown and did nothing to help. That's not the interpretation I had when reading the book, but it's just as canon as anything else on the family tree or the rest of the website. Sucks, but that's where we are.
|
|
|
Post by tema on Jan 10, 2022 1:40:21 GMT -5
I think the two sides here are living in two separate realities, so your arguments are missing each other. The anti-Frecklewish crowd is using Mapleshade's story (the one presented as canon by the article) as evidence, while the pro-Frecklewish side is just going "We don't know that for sure!". Y'all aren't gonna get anywhere when you can't agree on the objective events. This is why Word of God articles suck. The book is ambiguous, but at least people can agree on the objective events. Now we have half of people using WoG evidence while the other half resolutely refuses to hear it (understandably). It just creates an effing mine field. I think the whole thing can be summarized with "do you believe that you should consider outside information when looking at a media's story?"
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 10, 2022 5:40:47 GMT -5
I've gone through the book and complied the few scenes we have about Frecklewish watching the kits cross the river. So take it how you will. Mapleshade learning about Frecklewish watching the event from Nettlepaw: Actually, Mapleshade herself later thinks: Mapleshade confronts Frecklewish at Snakerocks: Thanks for the quotes Hollyfall. The fact that whether Frecklewish saw them fall in or not is being questioned, is such a strawman argument. The novella speaks for it'self. Frecklewish literally told Nettlepaw what happened and he has no reason to make that up. Mapleshade goes after her for it, confronting her her for watching them suffer and doing nothing. While Frecklewish straight up confirms putting herself there and that she watched them get swept away in the river and didn't even bother to do anything. And I don't know how many times it has to be said: The real problem isn't if she was successful or not at saving the kits, its the fact that she didn't even bother to try.She has NO excuse, to not even try. Because if you're going to justify her walking away from that scene, regardless of if she saw them fall in or not (despite the fact she was confirmed to and even stalked after them out of camp), it still doesn't change the fact that when she walked away from them, they were drowning. It doesn't change the fact she did NOTHING. It doesn't change the fact, that she saw children in distress, hearing them or not, she walked away from them heartlessly, with no effort to even try to help. And it's even worse because she KNEW there was a patrol nearby and did nothing to get their attention. If she actually didn't mean for them to die, and actually cared about those kits, if she actually loved them like she claimed, then her actions showed NO evidence of that. And we have no reason to give her the benefit of the doubt, especially because of how she "dehumanized" them before, and called for ALL of them to be exiled.
|
|
|
Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 10, 2022 13:51:54 GMT -5
What irks me most about this article is the fact that it just slapped new things into canon to justify her being in the Dark Forest when in the book of MV, there was literally nothing to prove all those things. For example:
"She shows no guilt" Yet, when Mapleshade accuses her, she inmmediately regrets it- she even says it with a raspy voice. In addition, she never brings up the kits again- Only angry at Mapleshade when she mentions her brother (Frecklewish was probably traumatized from his death and her mental health probably got worse when Mapleshade lied in her face about him being her mate). In the book, all we know is that she saw Mapleshade fall on the stepping stones, and that she saw a RiverClan patrol in the border. In another book she's also described as having sad eyes. Does that give any indication of her being evil?
But yet, the article now says that she watched Larchkit struggle, didin't bother to call for help, try to save them herself (Wich, as we all know, is deadly), etc. It really feels like just making material that was previously non-existent suddenly canon to justify her going to a place were your soul can get corrupted and become evil and you never see your family again. That's a bit too much, don't you think?
In my opinion, even if what she did is cruel, i don't think it means she deserves to be in eternal suffering because of what she did. If there could be a "limbo" of some sorts in Warrior cats, that's where she would belong. So she can regret her actions and get a pathway to StarClan. If she's truly evil, and not mentally unstable, then to the Dark Forest.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 10, 2022 14:02:13 GMT -5
I'd argue that of the three, Ravenwing was least responsible for what happened to Mapleshade's kits. He's definitely not blameless. But he was a young, somewhat inexperienced medicine cat who legitimately thought he was just doing what was best for the clan (and thought he had a sign from StarClan). Whereas Oakstar and Frecklewish mainly wanted her exiled for personal reasons and used Ravenwing's omen as an excuse to enact revenge for her lie. It could also be that he regretted her exile when he heard what happened. The most consistent factor in afterlife judgement so far seems to be intention. Seems to me that Ravenwing's placement could be interpreted the same way as Mudclaw, insofar as his overall intention/motivation was the good of his clan, even if his choice was objectively wrong. Ravenwing was not acting out of altruism. His attitude on MV was pure spite when he confronted Mapleshade and didn't bother humoring some soft mercy-pleading for the innocent children when he revealed their parents to the Clan. He was as bitter as the rest. I didn't say he was innocent, lol.
|
|
|
Post by tema on Jan 10, 2022 14:08:24 GMT -5
Ravenwing was not acting out of altruism. His attitude on MV was pure spite when he confronted Mapleshade and didn't bother humoring some soft mercy-pleading for the innocent children when he revealed their parents to the Clan. He was as bitter as the rest. I didn't say he was innocent, lol. I didn't imply you said he was. The idea in question was that Ravenwing "legitimately thought he was just doing what was best for the clan." His actions reveal no such consideration or higher calling. Dude was a jerk.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 10, 2022 14:22:03 GMT -5
What irks me most about this article is the fact that it just slapped new things into canon to justify her being in the Dark Forest when in the book of MV, there was literally nothing to prove all those things. For example: "She shows no guilt" Yet, when Mapleshade accuses her, she inmmediately regrets it- she even says it with a raspy voice. In addition, she never brings up the kits again- Only angry at Mapleshade when she mentions her brother. In the book, all we know is that she saw Mapleshade fall on the stepping stones, and that she saw a RiverClan patrol in the border. In another book she's also described as having sad eyes. Does that give any indication of her being evil? But yet, the article now says that she watched Larchkit struggle, didin't bother to call for help, try to save them herself (Wich, as we all know, is deadly), etc. It really feels like just making material that was previously non-existent suddenly canon to justify her going to a place were your soul can get corrupted and become evil and you never see your family again. That's a bit too much, don't you think? In my opinion, even if what she did is cruel, i don't think it means she deserves to be in eternal suffering because of what she did. If there could be a "limbo" of some sorts in Warrior cats, that's where she would belong. So she can regret her actions and get a pathway to StarClan. If she's truly evil, and not mentally unstable, then to the Dark Forest. What guilt? She showed no guilt for leaving the kits to drown, if the novella actually said anything about her "Stiffening from guilt" or "guilt reflected in her eyes/voice" then there would be no argument. She most certainly didn't show it in her actions either considering after Mapleshade accuses her of wanting them dead, she immediately deflects that and attacks Mapleshade after saying she wished she was dead instead. If her exploding into a murderous rage is proof of her "showing guilt" then that's a strange way to show it. You don't need to be evil to do horrible things. You can still do morally reprehensible things and still end up in the Dark Forest, Juniperclaw is the most recent example of that. Also sad eyes =/= guilt, cause it can easily be assumed she was only sad because the kits weren't an extension of her brother like she obsessed over for the last few moons. It was confirmed by Nettlepaw, and even Frecklewish herself considering she confirms it when Mapleshade confronts her, that she saw them get swept into the river by the flood. She assumed the patrol would save them, meaning it's before Appledusk saves Mapleshade. She was aware of the patrol nearby, but did nothing to alert them, call for help, or even do the same thing Appledusk does later; saving the kits with a branch. Meaning in between that time frame she indeed was there when literal children were crying out for help, she watched them drowning before leaving them behind to their own fate. At least Nettlepaw expressed he cared about the kits. And for comparison, here's the scene of when Mapleshade and her kits were swept into the river, aka what Frecklewish decided to walk away from, lol. Regardless of how long she stayed there, she stalked after them out of the camp, watched them try to cross and then get swept away by a sudden wave. Watched them be carried down stream, and then assumed they'd be fine just because she knew a patrol was nearby. If her literal reaction to seeing kits in danger is to just walk away, then that already says plenty about her character. And a side note, what I find even more interesting is that, since Frecklewish knew the river swept them away, because she saw it, that means she also saw Mapleshade climb back out after she got a concussion, while the kits were being dragged down stream. Meaning, if Mapleshade hadn't climbed back out, she would have just watched 3 kits get dragged away by the water, and still walk away from it. Or the fact that Mapleshade climbed out and she didn't hurry over to her to at least try to assist. The branch was also hanging in the river, literally nothing is stopping Frecklewish from using the same tactic Appledusk does to save a fully grown warrior.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 10, 2022 14:46:38 GMT -5
I didn't say he was innocent, lol. I didn't imply you said he was. The idea in question was that Ravenwing "legitimately thought he was just doing what was best for the clan." His actions reveal no such consideration or higher calling. Dude was a jerk. Every relevant Ravewing scene: To me, it seems pretty clear that he was primarily motivated by the omen and the desire to tell the truth, with the belief that letting Mapleshade lie to her clan (in two ways) was a violation of the code. He's angry at her and thinks code breaking must be punished. But he emphasizes multiple times that the question of truth is why he does all of this, echoing a belief that the Clan had a right to know. Moreover, he specifies that he wishes no suffering on the kits, or her, but that he is compelled to end her lies. Again, Ravenwing is in the wrong. I'm not excusing any of his choices. Part of wisdom is knowing when not to say something, and in this case, letting Mapleshade keep her secret rather than outing the kits' father as Appledusk specifically was not helpful to anyone. But he was motivated by principled intention, not personal rage or the desire to see Mapleshade (and/or kits) suffer, as Oakstar and Frecklewish were. It's possible he misinterpreted his omen. Maybe he didn't. What we do know is that he legitimately thought the omen were telling him something negative about Mapleshade's three kits. And cats indirectly dying from a wrong omen isn't a new concept -- several innocent WindClan cats probably suffered/died because of Goosefeather's supposed vision about destroying their whole herb supply. That doesn't mean Goosefeather deserves the Dark Forest; his intention was the good of his clanmates.
|
|
|
Post by tema on Jan 10, 2022 17:09:12 GMT -5
I'm going to be cutting out a lot of the irrelevant text, since stuff like his attitude towards Mapleshade when he mistakenly believed the kits were entirely ThunderClan, and Mapleshade's blame of him, are complete red herrings to what we are talking about and seem to be more for bolstering mentions of him than analyzing his character. EDIT: Please disregard that last paragraph because apparently pointing out that sone information is irrelevant to a conversation is "bad faith listening..." The entire reason Ravenwing arrives in this scene to justify his suspicions on the omen, looking to confirm the kits' parents and act accordingly. His immediate questioning is done so with the next dialogue in mind. Being surprised by Mapleshade having the audacity to let the kits play in the water is irrelevant to why he arrived to begin with. He even goes so far as to start questioning Patchkit, willing to use anything the kits say against them. What, in God's green Earth, about this scene resembles "empathy" in any way? He stands there in her way for no other purpose other than to initiate a confrontation about information he already figures out, then outright states that the kits don't belong because of their heritage, yet ThunderClan has taken in SkyClan refugees by this point. I won't reprise my prior statement here and instead point out the inflections in Ravenwing's voice reveal his underlying attitude. Mapleshade directly challenges the notion that this is about "truth" since she had, at this point, never actually lied about the kits' father. It's eeriely similar to Bluefur's kitting in this regard. I removed the bold since it's irrelevant and cherry-picking (not that I'm one to talk lol). Regardless of the knowledge obtained, Ravenwing is still choosing to act on it in a way malicious to the kits. He is apologizing because he knows that the kits will be collateral, but his primary motivation is to stand against Mapleshade. It's not that he's seeking truth. He already has that. He has all of the power in this dynamic. At this point, his goal is to enact what he feels just to a cat he feels wronged him.And bolding his apology is pretty silly since he isn't even taking blame here; he's blaming Mapleshade for his choice to act! He cannot acknowledge his own role here because he is focused on making certain Mapleshade feels distressed. "Moreover, he specifies that he wishes no suffering on the kits, or her..." He makes no effort to try to help the kits or mitigate their suffering. He is forefront here feeding into Oakstar's anger. He's angry at her and thinks code breaking must be punished. Yes. He's acting on spite and pointing at the code as a cope. Again, Ravenwing is in the wrong. I'm not excusing any of his choices. ...You just spent a paragraph doing exactly that. Part of wisdom is knowing when not to say something, and in this case, letting Mapleshade keep her secret rather than outing the kits' father as Appledusk specifically was not helpful to anyone. Weird wording, since the part of the quotes challenge this idea, going so far as to describe Ravenwing as he "didn’t seem like a young, inexperienced cat anymore." By this point in the story, Ravenwing is perceptive enough to figure out who, exactly, the kits' father is, then directly confront Mapleshade on the issue. You cannot reasonably argue that he was acting on naive when the book shows him as being clever enough to control the entire confrontation. But he was motivated by principled intention, not personal rage or the desire to see Mapleshade (and/or kits) suffer, as Oakstar and Frecklewish were. Whether or not he felt anything personal is entirely irrelevant. In fact, one could make the argument that it makes it worse; it's enacting judgement based on his morality against lives he knows will be ruined for the sake of judgement. One could. I won't because that's not the problem; the problem is that he knows exactly what those cats he tells are motivated by, and still chooses to act. It's a proxy to their motivations. It's possible he misinterpreted his omen. Maybe he didn't. What we do know is that he legitimately thought the omen were telling him something negative about Mapleshade's three kits. If there really is that much room for debate for the actual omen in sharp contrast to Ravenwing's very specific conjecture, that tells me that the sign wasn't bad, it tells me that Ravenwing read the message that the kits were half-RiverClan, and then pointed at that omen to justify his later conjecture. (Just to beeak formality for a moment, the whole idea that a plant "doesn't belong in ThunderClan" is such a pretty stupid line of logic for a medicine cat, a cat whose job is to gather plants from all over the forest, that I am struggling to see how he could have come up with that bit unless it was an idea he constructed after figuring out the kits' parents.)That doesn't mean Goosefeather deserves the Dark Forest; his intention was the good of his clanmates. There is a huge difference. Goosefeather sees omens and reads them incorrectly, and acts on incomplete knowledge. He was mistaken in judgement. He took open-ended information and worked with it in his jinxed prowess. Ravenwing knew what would happen if he acted. He was absolute. He did not know the kits would die, but from the ThunderClan perspective of "kits leave the territory," it achieved the same result.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 10, 2022 17:39:12 GMT -5
tema I...think you misunderstood a lot. Not everything I quoted was meant to be evidentiary support to my argument. I just quoted every scene that Ravenwing and Mapleshade appear together in the novel (except his death) so that everyone could see the entirety of their interactions + their context. Moreover, you're ascribing certain interpretations of such scenes to me that I never claimed. (Where on earth did I claim Ravenwing was empathetic?) I'm not going to go through and argue each individual counterargument you made, because you frankly misunderstood/misinterpreted most of my argument to begin with and are challenging points I wasn't making in the first place. Idek where to begin responding to it. EDIT: Also, analyzing a character's motivations and how that might affect his afterlife placement =/= excusing his actions, lol.
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Alice on Jan 10, 2022 20:11:32 GMT -5
Okay I'm going to say my piece because I already touched on this but it's really been gnawing at me. This is not, to be clear, a post regarding the morality of things and what I think actually happened, but just my feelings as someone with. Well I had my writing credentials here but it seemed like humble bragging. Anyway: It really doesn't actually matter what Frecklewish did. The book is filtered through Mapleshade's viewpoint and she is just on page detached from reality after her kits die. Did Frecklewish want the kits to die? Did she see them drown? We don't know and it literally doesn't matter, all that matters is that Mapleshade thinks that's the case. We know she saw what happened through a secondary source in what are frankly pretty vague terms, and when Frecklewish does show up Mapleshade has made up her mind on what the narrative is.
I'd've been frustrated if the writers confirmed Frecklewish innocent because again, it's not the point of the story. I think I'd less annoyed insofar as how that'd play into Mapleshade having a warped idea of what was happening, whereas the authors saying "she was right, by the way" just ruins the whole point of an unreliable narrator anyway. As readers we can speculate and argue and all that but the writers confirming any which way just cheapens the story.
Anyway peace that's the last I'll say on this
|
|
|
Post by Cheetahstar on Jan 10, 2022 20:47:45 GMT -5
the more i think about this the more I hate frecklewish lol
have fun in the df
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Jan 10, 2022 20:59:21 GMT -5
Just an FYI, since I see this being brought up a lot - Just because someone is an unreliable narrator doesn't mean every perception or event through their eyes is wrong. There was no way for Mapleshade to have skewed what Nettlepaw said in this book. While her own perception of the events or her reaction may be off, we know for a fact that Frecklewish saw the kits and Mapleshade in the river but did nothing to help or alert anyone. The only argument to be made here is whether her callous lack of action is DF worthy or not
|
|
|
Post by Spooky Alice on Jan 10, 2022 21:21:22 GMT -5
Just an FYI, since I see this being brought up a lot - Just because someone is an unreliable narrator doesn't mean every perception or event through their eyes is wrong. There was no way for Mapleshade to have skewed what Nettlepaw said in this book. While her own perception of the events or her reaction may be off, we know for a fact that Frecklewish saw the kits and Mapleshade in the river but did nothing to help or alert anyone. The only argument to be made here is whether her callous lack of action is DF worthy or not i know i said im peacing out but that's literally what an unreliable narrator is. nettlepaw ONLY told her that frecklewish saw her fall in, there was absolutely nothing said about her doing nothing to help. that's what mapleshade assumed.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 10, 2022 22:03:46 GMT -5
Okay I'm going to say my piece because I already touched on this but it's really been gnawing at me. This is not, to be clear, a post regarding the morality of things and what I think actually happened, but just my feelings as someone with. Well I had my writing credentials here but it seemed like humble bragging. Anyway: It really doesn't actually matter what Frecklewish did. The book is filtered through Mapleshade's viewpoint and she is just on page detached from reality after her kits die. Did Frecklewish want the kits to die? Did she see them drown? We don't know and it literally doesn't matter, all that matters is that Mapleshade thinks that's the case. We know she saw what happened through a secondary source in what are frankly pretty vague terms, and when Frecklewish does show up Mapleshade has made up her mind on what the narrative is. I'd've been frustrated if the writers confirmed Frecklewish innocent because again, it's not the point of the story. I think I'd less annoyed insofar as how that'd play into Mapleshade having a warped idea of what was happening, whereas the authors saying "she was right, by the way" just ruins the whole point of an unreliable narrator anyway. As readers we can speculate and argue and all that but the writers confirming any which way just cheapens the story. Anyway peace that's the last I'll say on this This. I've been trying to say this exact thing the whole time, but you put it better than I could. The authors confirming either way what Frecklewish did ruins the interpretive aspect of the story, which was the entire point of the book.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 10, 2022 22:21:13 GMT -5
we know for a fact that Frecklewish saw the kits and Mapleshade in the river but did nothing to help or alert anyone. We know for a fact that Frecklewish saw Mapleshade fall into the river. We don't know if she saw the kits and we don't know that she didn't help or try to alert anyone.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 10, 2022 22:30:05 GMT -5
Something just occurred to me. How come nobody on the planet is discussing Nettlepaw? We all just assume everything Nettlepaw says is the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Kid may have been scared shitless by Mapleshade and spoke unclearly. Maybe everything he says is the truth, but he didn't get a chance to elaborate given that Maple snarls at him. He doesn't know what Frecklewish did either, just what she said when she came back.
There's so many layers of telephone-game in this book, I don't understand how people can possibly say we know anything about Frecklewish's actions.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 10, 2022 22:39:45 GMT -5
we know for a fact that Frecklewish saw the kits and Mapleshade in the river but did nothing to help or alert anyone. We know for a fact that Frecklewish saw Mapleshade fall into the river. We don't know if she saw the kits and we don't know that she didn't help or try to alert anyone. No offense, but that's nonsensical. Nettlepaw literally said that Frecklewish told him, she saw them fall off at stepping stones from the flood, and then she left them to drown. Frecklewish confirms this because she says she never meant for them to die, meaning she knew they were in danger, but figured they'd be fine. Because she thought it was perfectly okay walking away from a situation where children were in literal distress. Mapleshade and the kits fell into the river at the same time, AND she had followed Mapleshade form the camp in the first place. When Mapleshade resurfaced after beings slammed against the bottom of the river, the kits were being swept away, meaning regardless, Frecklewish would have seen them. To claim that she didn't it, is a strawman argument. Especially because, again, Frecklewish confirmed to knowing they were in danger. Nettlepaw also has no reason to lie. Nettlepaw knew that the kits and her were carried away by the flood because its what Frecklewish herself told him, hence why he said, "but I hoped you made it to the other side" because he was only then finding out through Mapleshade, that the kits didn't survive. How would he have known that the kits were in danger if not through finding out from Frecklewish? He'd have no reason to say that line otherwise. There is no room for the interpretation, "Maybe she didn't see the kits fall in" when the narrative, Nettlepaw, and Freclewish herself + the article, confirms she saw them fall in, and there's no reason to think otherwise, when all four of them were dragged under the water at the same time.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 10, 2022 22:52:55 GMT -5
Something just occurred to me. How come nobody on the planet is discussing Nettlepaw? We all just assume everything Nettlepaw says is the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Kid may have been scared shitless by Mapleshade and spoke unclearly. Maybe everything he says is the truth, but he didn't get a chance to elaborate given that Maple snarls at him. He doesn't know what Frecklewish did either, just what she said when she came back. There's so many layers of telephone-game in this book, I don't understand how people can possibly say we know anything about Frecklewish's actions. He showed no signs of fear when he told Mapleshade what happened, in fact he was literally the most merciful character in the novella, next to Myler, when it came to how other cats treated Mapleshade and the kits. What reason would he have to lie? He literally goes behind Ravenwing's back and gives Mapleshade herbs he was supposed to be gathering. Told her he had hoped she and the kits were safe after Frecklewish told him they were washed downstream. Nettlepaw only looked scared to Mapleshade after she visibly got angry at finding out that Frecklewish saw what happened and did nothing. If anything he tried to give Frecklewish the benefit of the doubt by saying "She must have thought they were okay.", when she honestly doesn't deserve it. There is literally no telephone game here, considering the information of what Frecklewish did only went through literally one cat, and that being Nettlepaw, who actually felt bad for Mapleshade. And again, if this wasn't actually the case, Frecklewish would have had no reason to confirm Mapleshade's accusations. “Too scared to fight me yourself, Frecklewish?” she hissed. “You prefer watching helpless kits drown, don’t you?” The brown she-cat stiffened. “I thought your kits would be saved,” she rasped. “I never meant for them to die.”If she didn't see the kits fall in, she wouldn't have said that, nor confirm that she walked away from it. If she was as innocent as people are trying to make her out to be, or people trying to make Nettlepaw out to be a liar, then she wouldn't have said those lines. It's very transparent context.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 10, 2022 22:53:25 GMT -5
i agree with ❅Maplefrost❅nettlepaw is clearly a good cat. instead of forgetting he saw mapleshade, he goes back to give her herbs. he shows mapleshade kindness and sympathies, and even apologizes for the kits being lost. he wouldn't lie or exaggerate. he has no stakes in the matter, but frecklewish and mapleshade do. leads me to ask how he got this info from freckle. she's not his mentor, so was she just bragging about it in camp or something? did he ask her himself? im making biased assumptions though.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 10, 2022 23:05:49 GMT -5
i agree with ❅Maplefrost❅ nettlepaw is clearly a good cat. instead of forgetting he saw mapleshade, he goes back to give her herbs. he shows mapleshade kindness and sympathies, and even apologizes for the kits being lost. he wouldn't lie or exaggerate. he has no stakes in the matter, but frecklewish and mapleshade do. leads me to ask how he got this info from freckle. she's not his mentor, so was she just bragging about it in camp or something? did he ask her himself? im making biased assumptions though. I will say, Skypaw13 made me notice something interesting though, lol. "Mapleshade glanced sideways to see a wall of water bearing down on her, sweeping branches and debris ahead of it. She paddled furiously but the current was dragging her away from the stones, not toward them. “Hold on!” she screeched to the kits as the wave crashed over her head." The wave slammed Mapleshade into the bottom of the river, she then had to swim back up and cling to stepping stone, and then sees her kits being dragged down stream. The kits were washed away from stepping stones by the large wave, Mapleshade then, out of desperation, jumps back in to try and save them. However when Frecklewish told Nettlepaw she simply says, " They fell off the stepping-stones.” that's honestly putting it lightly, imo. She really tried to minimize how severe the situation was, no wonder Nettlepaw still had some sort of hope that they would make it across safely.
|
|
Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
|
Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 11, 2022 1:01:11 GMT -5
This will probably be my last post for this thread. And for the sake of being purely objective to the argument, I’m going to assume everything implicated in the article is true.
And presume Frecklewish actually watched the whole objective event unfold of Mapleshade and her Kits being swept off of the stepping stones by the wave into the flooding river, witnessed Mapleshade get rescued from the river by the Riverclan patrol before leaving, with the assumption that the situation is under control(if that’s even possible in said scenario). It’s very unlikely to near impossible that she would of been able to actually considering the low visibility conditions of the torrential rainstorm, unless she was standing right next to the shore which in that case Mapleshade and the Riverclan patrol would of probably been privy to her presence. And there’s no evidence that she was finding sadistic pleasure from the ordeal, or that she didn’t contemplate lending a paw, now i suppose we could argue that she should of just flung herself into action and made herself present.
However, It’s most certainly crucial and worth mentioning that Frecklewish has just started recovering from clinical Major Depressive Disorder, to where she had practically given up on life from her Brothers death, and undoubtedly was also suffering from PTSD and associated aquaphobia that would of left her a crippled and traumatized mess that would of probably frozen in fear and shock from just the prospect thinking about getting near to the water. Which would also explain her mood swing and outbursts of anger and her lashing out at Mapleshade after the truths revealed, plus from grief and anguish. So safe to say she’s at a pretty low spot mentally at the time, which would definitely have negative impacts on her judgement .
The article also directly contradicts MV by describing Larchkit yowling for help while clinging to the branch, when in actuality it’s described as a faint mew barely audible by Mapleshade, whom is close proximity to Larchkit at the time. And shortly after Larchkit vanishes beneath the waves of the river Appledusk is seen wading out into the river and tells her to grab the branch and wait for him to pull her out, which it’s not until Mapleshade tells him that the kits are drowning in the river that he realizes they were even there to begin with, meaning neither him or the rest of Riverclan patrol saw or heard the kits even though they were right next to the shore. So I’d say there’s a very high probability that Frecklewish didn’t even notice or realize that the kits were in the River to begin with since she was more then likely viewing the whole ordeal from a fair distance away hidden. Even though the article implies she was knowledgeable of it, given the low visibility conditions, and the raging river, it’s hard to really make a claim like that since there’s hardly any concrete logic to make it stick, and just showcases that whoever wrote the article has zero understanding of the original material. And there’s no concrete evidence to prove or disprove that she didn’t call out or not, and it’s very likely wouldn’t of been heard anyway.
But let’s assume she did witness the kits fall in, and didn’t try to take any action, which by this point the kits are beyond being saved by any reasonable means and are unfortunately inevitably are going to drown. But I suppose she could of offered moral support or something to Mapleshade ?? Consolation perhaps. Which basically comes down to if there’s validation for the charges that have condemned her to the Dark Forest, which is Negligence for the kits lives, which is defined as “Failure to take proper care” which only one at the scene that falls under that category is Mapleshade for taking her kits across a flooding river, or failure to take reasonable care or action to prevent injury or death to someone, which would first implicate that there is reasonable means within your power to prevent injury, and at this point there’s nothing reasonable short of mindlessly throwing oneself in the river in a haphazard attempt at a rescue in whitewater rapids, which is pretty much suicide.
But let’s say there’s validation to charge her for breaking the code. Then it boils down to personal perspective and judgement whether if the singular act of fallacy is deserving of being condemned to eternal misery, and suffering in Hell. Personally, I don’t think so, not by a long shot.
All the article accomplishes is completely undermining the purpose of MV, and taking away the intentional ambiguity and vagueness of the narrative, that’s intended to highlight Mapleshade as a sociopathic serial killer, with bloodlust that hellbent on revenge, and is capable of warping the delusional reality she’s living in, and take small bits of information and fabricate false realities in order to rationalize and anchor her motivation, and tell herself it’s perfectly okay to commit murder without remorse, which is realistic to how real serial killers operate. She’s an unreliable narrator that more then likely exaggerated the coldness of of everyone around her, and clearly chooses to ignore or refuses to acknowledge any sympathy or guilt that is hinted but not explicitly expressed by the narrative from the other cats, too further drive home the point that she’s a maniacal and twisted cat who’s narrative isn’t really meant to be taken super seriously.
Personally she’s my favorite villain because of how demented, twisted, sadistic, bloodthirsty, maniacal and realistic of a character she is. She’s operates without any remorse or a shred of acknowledgment that what she’s doing is wrong, and she’s also very cunning and sinister and manipulative and has no qualms using every malicious and malignant act in the book to achieve her twisted goals . She’s a villain that would ultimately make the king of horror himself, Stephen King proud, obviously her heinous crimes are toned down to the appropriate audience, but shes of that caliber. And by making her victims out to be criminals reprehensible enough to be condemned to hell, their simultaneously devaluing and reducing the weight of her atrocities and an impact as a villain and reshapes her character, from a bloodthirsty serial killer to someone that’s just enacting retribution against criminals that wronged her, which is a scenario more reminiscent to the movie “Law-abiding Citizen”.
And even opens the passageway to question with whether or not she’s even deserving of the Dark Forest, if she was only taking out condemned criminal’s.
Anyway. That’s the end of my rambling, neither juniperclaw or Frecklewish deserve the Dark Forest. And I know there’s no written concrete rules of what’s deserving to be condemned to the Dark Forest, but up until the last 2 arcs there wasn’t really anyone being sent there that was questionable(besides Ashfur). Brokenstar/Tigerstar 1, Hawkfrost and Thistleclaw are all more then deserving of there placement in the DF. peace out.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 11, 2022 2:01:59 GMT -5
We know for a fact that Frecklewish saw Mapleshade fall into the river. We don't know if she saw the kits and we don't know that she didn't help or try to alert anyone. No offense, but that's nonsensical. Nettlepaw literally said that Frecklewish told him, she saw them fall off at stepping stones from the flood, and then she left them to drown. Frecklewish confirms this because she says she never meant for them to die, meaning she knew they were in danger, but figured they'd be fine. Because she thought it was perfectly okay walking away from a situation where children were in literal distress. Mapleshade and the kits fell into the river at the same time, AND she had followed Mapleshade form the camp in the first place. When Mapleshade resurfaced after beings slammed against the bottom of the river, the kits were being swept away, meaning regardless, Frecklewish would have seen them. To claim that she didn't it, is a strawman argument. Especially because, again, Frecklewish confirmed to knowing they were in danger. Nettlepaw also has no reason to lie. Nettlepaw knew that the kits and her were carried away by the flood because its what Frecklewish herself told him, hence why he said, "but I hoped you made it to the other side" because he was only then finding out through Mapleshade, that the kits didn't survive. How would he have known that the kits were in danger if not through finding out from Frecklewish? He'd have no reason to say that line otherwise. There is no room for the interpretation, "Maybe she didn't see the kits fall in" when the narrative, Nettlepaw, and Freclewish herself + the article, confirms she saw them fall in, and there's no reason to think otherwise, when all four of them were dragged under the water at the same time. I was about to ask if you missed the rest of my post and then realized that my dumb ass deleted it, my bad. I had followed up my statement with "realistically, she would have seen the kits, but the fact remains that's it's not stated directly". I had a paragraph written here clarifying my points yet again, but upon reflection it's honestly not that important. You know how I feel on the situation, so does everyone else: I'm not here to defend Frecklewish, I just want people to stop using personal interpretations as hard fact. That's it. I don't care about Frecklewish. Think I'm just gonna perma-read this thread and head out.
|
|
|
Post by tema on Jan 11, 2022 2:08:16 GMT -5
tema I...think you misunderstood a lot. Not everything I quoted was meant to be evidentiary support to my argument. I just quoted every scene that Ravenwing and Mapleshade appear together in the novel (except his death) so that everyone could see the entirety of their interactions + their context. Moreover, you're ascribing certain interpretations of such scenes to me that I never claimed. (Where on earth did I claim Ravenwing was empathetic?) I'm not going to go through and argue each individual counterargument you made, because you frankly misunderstood/misinterpreted most of my argument to begin with and are challenging points I wasn't making in the first place. Idek where to begin responding to it. EDIT: Also, analyzing a character's motivations and how that might affect his afterlife placement =/= excusing his actions, lol. I did not misunderstand your argument. All I did was scrutinize the passages provided to see if they matched your interpretation of Ravenwing's actions, which were lacking. Besides your shifting to personal attacks, I have several problems with some of the individual defenses of your prior argument here. You claimed that not everything you mentioned was meant to be evidence (of Ravenwing's character) "so that everyone could see the entirety of their interactions," but you explicitly highlighted several parts to draw attention to them in support of Ravenwing's motives. Is that not an attempt at presenting evidence? Am I mistaken is noticing the attempt to draw explicit attention to them? I'm asking rhetorically. Also, stating that certain quotes were added without intention of viewing them in the analysis is not a merit, it's a red herring, a distraction that has nothing to do with the actual discussion. Furthermore, you seem more concerned about me using using the word "empathetic," but not me pointing out that Ravenwing's attitude is contrary to some blameless "compulsion." Ironically, you are misinterpreting my argument here. The point there was not primarily to turnabout your wording, the point was highlight the underlying spite fueling Ravenwing's decisions. Lastly, I'd like to talk about the notion that you aren't excusing him. Your argument stems on the notion that Ravenwing is acting because he feels "compelled" to the truth. This wording takes the responsibility out of his own decision by placing Ravenwing's thought process onto some alleged objective standard, when breaking down his actions yields more sinister undertones spiced with his own emotions and conjecture, even going so far as to blame Mapleshade for his decision to tell Oakstar, a cat he knows will evoke wrath upon her and the children. I would appreciate not being egregiously handwaved.
|
|
|
Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 11, 2022 2:19:59 GMT -5
Something just occurred to me. How come nobody on the planet is discussing Nettlepaw? We all just assume everything Nettlepaw says is the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Kid may have been scared shitless by Mapleshade and spoke unclearly. Maybe everything he says is the truth, but he didn't get a chance to elaborate given that Maple snarls at him. He doesn't know what Frecklewish did either, just what she said when she came back. There's so many layers of telephone-game in this book, I don't understand how people can possibly say we know anything about Frecklewish's actions. Let me clarify now that people have responded to this post: I was NOT saying Nettlepaw is a bad cat / maliciously lying. I was pointing out that he may not be objective. There are a LOT of reasons a young cat wouldn't tell the entire factual story. For example: he doesn't remember exactly what was said and is summarizing. Happens all the time. Just because someone doesn't provide the objective factual truth doesn't mean they're a bad person, and I wasn't trying to imply such. I'm sorry if I did, that would be a miscommunication on my part.
|
|