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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jan 8, 2022 4:38:08 GMT -5
Why do the authors hate specifically Frecklewish so much?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 8, 2022 5:39:20 GMT -5
Oh wow...that is almost exactly the points I've pointed out over the years. This is hilariously satisfying to read.
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Post by crowspirit on Jan 8, 2022 6:40:11 GMT -5
Well, I don't think she should have gone to the Dark Forest while Oakstar, Ravenwing and Appledusk went to StarClan. Especially Oakstar. But her behaviour still doesn't sit right with me. I get that she was grieving, but calling the kits half - clan creatures, attacking their mother in front of them and leaving while the kits are being swept away is pretty scummy. I'm not saying that she should have jumped into the river, because that would be suicide, but she could have at least waited to see if the kits are okay or crouch at the shore to see if she could have reached one of them. Just leaving like this is really heartless, but I don't think it's enough to justify her being sent to the Dark Forest.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 8, 2022 6:44:56 GMT -5
This has to be one of the most biased articles i've seen. Frecklewish deserves better.
In the books, it says that she thought the kits could be saved by the RiverClan patrol, and when asked by Mapleshade, she inmmediately shows guilt by saying she didin't mean for the kits to die. The article points out that she snarled that she "wishes for Mapleshade to die", and that suddenly means showing no remorse- when, before she said that, Mapleshade literally snarls at her that she's a fox-hearted coward, and that she surely meant for the kits to die. Then, Frecklewish literally snarls at Mapleshade, NOT THE KITS, that she wishes she was dead, and i repeat, NOT THE KITS. So Frecklewish can't show anger anymore because that means she deserves Dark Forest?
Imo, this article is incredibly biased. The article also says "She shows no responsability" when 3 lines before she dies, she literally says she didin't mean for them to die. Also, nowhere near the book she "shows no remorse". She never, ever tries to guilt Mapleshade on the kits' deaths, or says they deserved it. The only thing she does is say to Maple that she should die, but that was in a moment of anger, where Mapleshade likely hit her were she had most guilt.
There are also several things that didin't allow her to call for help, or it would be too late. Do the authors think she should have just jumped into the river to save the kits?
Did they even reread the book before sending her in the DF?
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Bisexual
dnacat
But courage need not be remembered, for it is never forgotten.
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Post by dnacat on Jan 8, 2022 7:44:08 GMT -5
This article is ridiculous. The team literally describes how the river was flooding and Mapleshade and the kits were being swept away - and still blame Frecklewish for not doing anything. What is the logic in that? Is she meant to kill herself, just so StarClan don't blame her for what happens next? Her getting into the river and trying to help would have done nothing. She's a ThunderClan cat with no swimming experience at all, she would have drowned before she got anywhere near the kits and Mapleshade. And there are no implications in the book to suggest she sat by, watching and enjoying it.
And, as other people have pointed out, they could at least be consistent. Why does Oakstar get to hang out in StarClan with Firestar? Why does Ravenwing, who told on Mapleshade despite knowing what would happen, get to chill with Cinderpelt? What about Appledusk? What about Rainflower - who neglects Crookedstar on an arguably way more severe level, and gets to hang out with Sandstorm and Ferncloud?
"But Frecklewish didn't show any remorse," the story team cry, discussing a character who we only see through the eyes of somebody who hates her. Frecklewish literally admits that she didn't want the kits to die, but that's disproven because... she growls at someone trying to attack her (and who also used her dead brother as a cover-up story). Right.
I just don't get it, at all. I don't think Frecklewish was a good person, but I don't think it can be argued at all that she's to blame for the kits dying. I could maybe understand it if the other 'villains' of Mapleshade's Vengeance also went to Kitty Hell, but they don't. So, I don't get it, and it's never, ever going to make sense to me.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jan 8, 2022 8:16:11 GMT -5
Well, I don't think she should have gone to the Dark Forest while Oakstar, Ravenwing and Appledusk went to StarClan. Especially Oakstar. But her behaviour still doesn't sit right with me. I get that she was grieving, but calling the kits half - clan creatures, attacking their mother in front of them and leaving while the kits are being swept away is pretty scummy. I'm not saying that she should have jumped into the river, because that would be suicide, but she could have at least waited to see if the kits are okay or crouch at the shore to see if she could have reached one of them. Just leaving like this is really heartless, but I don't think it's enough to justify her being sent to the Dark Forest. Agreed, I don't think she is 100% morally innocent. If she could have helped the kits, then she should've tried her best to convince Oakstar to let them stay with her when they were being exiled and apologizing for lashing out at them. (I don't think there's much else she could do to help anyway, especially not at the river.) Yet the fact that she is one of the only cats to be punished for breaking this rule is pretty weird. There are cats such as Rainflower, Oakstar, and Russetfur who have done a lot worse than her when it comes to Code 12, yet they're never punished by StarClan for it.
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Post by Rainfire on Jan 8, 2022 8:44:25 GMT -5
This just makes me reaaaaaally want a short story or something from Frecklewish's POV during the river-event, since this confirms she saw it transpire to the point where she even saw Larchkit clinging to the branch and yowling for help. I'd love to know what exactly was going on in Freckle's mind during those moments and immediately afterwards.
(as for the "freckle in starclan or dark forest" debate i'm neutral, and I honestly don't care that they put her in the df because i've never liked her lol)
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 8, 2022 9:04:16 GMT -5
This article is ridiculous. The team literally describes how the river was flooding and Mapleshade and the kits were being swept away - and still blame Frecklewish for not doing anything. What is the logic in that? Is she meant to kill herself, just so StarClan don't blame her for what happens next? Her getting into the river and trying to help would have done nothing. She's a ThunderClan cat with no swimming experience at all, she would have drowned before she got anywhere near the kits and Mapleshade. And there are no implications in the book to suggest she sat by, watching and enjoying it. And, as other people have pointed out, they could at least be consistent. Why does Oakstar get to hang out in StarClan with Firestar? Why does Ravenwing, who told on Mapleshade despite knowing what would happen, get to chill with Cinderpelt? What about Appledusk? What about Rainflower - who neglects Crookedstar on an arguably way more severe level, and gets to hang out with Sandstorm and Ferncloud? "But Frecklewish didn't show any remorse," the story team cry, discussing a character who we only see through the eyes of somebody who hates her. Frecklewish literally admits that she didn't want the kits to die, but that's disproven because... she growls at someone trying to attack her (and who also used her dead brother as a cover-up story). Right. I just don't get it, at all. I don't think Frecklewish was a good person, but I don't think it can be argued at all that she's to blame for the kits dying. I could maybe understand it if the other 'villains' of Mapleshade's Vengeance also went to Kitty Hell, but they don't. So, I don't get it, and it's never, ever going to make sense to me. Literally this. The fact that she's literally blamed just because she growls at Mapleshade who calls her a fox-hearted coward is ridiculous.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 8, 2022 9:42:18 GMT -5
This article is ridiculous. The team literally describes how the river was flooding and Mapleshade and the kits were being swept away - and still blame Frecklewish for not doing anything. What is the logic in that? Is she meant to kill herself, just so StarClan don't blame her for what happens next? Her getting into the river and trying to help would have done nothing. She's a ThunderClan cat with no swimming experience at all, she would have drowned before she got anywhere near the kits and Mapleshade. And there are no implications in the book to suggest she sat by, watching and enjoying it. And, as other people have pointed out, they could at least be consistent. Why does Oakstar get to hang out in StarClan with Firestar? Why does Ravenwing, who told on Mapleshade despite knowing what would happen, get to chill with Cinderpelt? What about Appledusk? What about Rainflower - who neglects Crookedstar on an arguably way more severe level, and gets to hang out with Sandstorm and Ferncloud? "But Frecklewish didn't show any remorse," the story team cry, discussing a character who we only see through the eyes of somebody who hates her. Frecklewish literally admits that she didn't want the kits to die, but that's disproven because... she growls at someone trying to attack her (and who also used her dead brother as a cover-up story). Right. I just don't get it, at all. I don't think Frecklewish was a good person, but I don't think it can be argued at all that she's to blame for the kits dying. I could maybe understand it if the other 'villains' of Mapleshade's Vengeance also went to Kitty Hell, but they don't. So, I don't get it, and it's never, ever going to make sense to me. Literally this. The fact that she's literally blamed just because she growls at Mapleshade who calls her a fox-hearted coward is ridiculous. No, she's blamed for growling that she wishes she was dead and then leaping at her with apparent intent to make that come true. Actions speak louder than words, and it's difficult to believe she feels real regret about it when her immediate action upon being confronted with what is just a devastated mother is to go blind with rage and proceed to try to attack her. You'd think if she felt so regretful, she might have empathized a little bit. But ultimately, her hatred of Mapleshade mattered to her more than anything else in that moment. I don't think her statement is in anyway a big statement of regret. It's an incredibly deflectory statement.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 8, 2022 10:32:53 GMT -5
Literally this. The fact that she's literally blamed just because she growls at Mapleshade who calls her a fox-hearted coward is ridiculous. No, she's blamed for growling that she wishes she was dead and then leaping at her with apparent intent to make that come true. Actions speak louder than words, and it's difficult to believe she feels real regret about it when her immediate action upon being confronted with what is just a devastated mother is to go blind with rage and proceed to try to attack her. You'd think if she felt so regretful, she might have empathized a little bit. But ultimately, her hatred of Mapleshade mattered to her more than anything else in that moment. I don't think her statement is in anyway a big statement of regret. It's an incredibly deflectory statement. I... struggle to understand what you wanted her to do. Mapleshade throws accusations at her that probably made Frecklewish feel a lot more guilty of their deaths. She even admits it later on. It is only after Mapleshade calls her a fox-hearted coward that she attacks, probably only in a moment of anger. Tell me, was she supposed to bend over and constantly beg for forgiveness? Have a therapy session with her? Just because Mapleshade was a devastated mother, dosen't mean she didin't use her dead brother as a tool and manipulate her, insult Frecklewish, trespass into TC territory, challenge her into a fight, and accuse her of their deaths. And after all of that, Frecklewish isin't allowed to have a moment of anger, because that inmmediately means going to the Dark Forest? Especially when she didin't even touch Mapleshade, and it was only a moment of blind rage? She dosen't deserve going to literal hell when she didin't do anything besides having some intrusive thoughts in a moment of anger. Also, there's no proof in the books that she sat back and enjoyed the kits' death, or that she was lying that she felt responsable. But we may have proof that she feels guilty: 1. She says it. 2. She never tries to accuse Mapleshade instead, or try to guilt the river, nothing else. She never brings up the kits or insults them again- Even if chapters before she was calling them half-clan creatures. Seems strange, right? All she blames Mapleshade for is for using her brother as a tool for her plans. Nothing else. Give me proof that appears in the book that it shows she felt no remorse. And, in my personal opinion, the article can't be held as proof; considering the book takes a different direction and makes Frecklewish even admit she's guilty. I've said it in another post in this thread, but the article contradicts itself a lot.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 8, 2022 10:56:24 GMT -5
No, she's blamed for growling that she wishes she was dead and then leaping at her with apparent intent to make that come true. Actions speak louder than words, and it's difficult to believe she feels real regret about it when her immediate action upon being confronted with what is just a devastated mother is to go blind with rage and proceed to try to attack her. You'd think if she felt so regretful, she might have empathized a little bit. But ultimately, her hatred of Mapleshade mattered to her more than anything else in that moment. I don't think her statement is in anyway a big statement of regret. It's an incredibly deflectory statement. I... struggle to understand what you wanted her to do. Mapleshade throws accusations at her that probably made Frecklewish feel a lot more guilty of their deaths. She even admits it later on. It is only after Mapleshade calls her a fox-hearted coward that she attacks, probably only in a moment of anger. Tell me, was she supposed to bend over and constantly beg for forgiveness? Have a therapy session with her? Just because Mapleshade was a devastated mother, dosen't mean she didin't use her dead brother as a tool and manipulate her, insult Frecklewish, trespass into TC territory, challenge her into a fight, and accuse her of their deaths. And after all of that, Frecklewish isin't allowed to have a moment of anger, because that inmmediately means going to the Dark Forest? Especially when she didin't even touch Mapleshade, and it was only a moment of blind rage? She dosen't deserve going to literal hell when she didin't do anything besides having some intrusive thoughts in a moment of anger. I think attacking the grieving mother because she got smacktalked is a bit excessive, doubly so if one believes she was going for the kill (saying you wish someone is dead while charging them aggressively is probably considered a threat on their life). This isn't a matter of honor, Mapleshade is an exiled and destitute wreck who has no standing whatsoever to damage her name any further. As for what Frecklewish could have done, hilariously enough she could have just called the patrol like she threatened to do. Or maybe displayed some form of contrition that isn't immediately negated by her flying into a rage and threatening to kill Mapleshade. That kind of makes the "regret" angle look really unconvincing and I don't believe it at all. A moment of anger is one thing, this was a long string of horrible decisions starting with the camp fight, neglecting kits in danger, and then continuing to show not a lick of sympathy and being ruled by her rage. One could make the argument that given time to get over it, she could have become more calm. But she squandered that chance by jumping straight into an adders' den, and in that regard she is no different from the likes of Clawface who got the Dark Forest when none of his compatriots did.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 8, 2022 11:14:53 GMT -5
I... struggle to understand what you wanted her to do. Mapleshade throws accusations at her that probably made Frecklewish feel a lot more guilty of their deaths. She even admits it later on. It is only after Mapleshade calls her a fox-hearted coward that she attacks, probably only in a moment of anger. Tell me, was she supposed to bend over and constantly beg for forgiveness? Have a therapy session with her? Just because Mapleshade was a devastated mother, dosen't mean she didin't use her dead brother as a tool and manipulate her, insult Frecklewish, trespass into TC territory, challenge her into a fight, and accuse her of their deaths. And after all of that, Frecklewish isin't allowed to have a moment of anger, because that inmmediately means going to the Dark Forest? Especially when she didin't even touch Mapleshade, and it was only a moment of blind rage? She dosen't deserve going to literal hell when she didin't do anything besides having some intrusive thoughts in a moment of anger. I think attacking the grieving mother because she got smacktalked is a bit excessive, doubly so if one believes she was going for the kill (saying you wish someone is dead while charging them aggressively is probably considered a threat on their life). This isn't a matter of honor, Mapleshade is an exiled and destitute wreck who has no standing whatsoever to damage her name any further. As for what Frecklewish could have done, hilariously enough she could have just called the patrol like she threatened to do. Or maybe displayed some form of contrition that isn't immediately negated by her flying into a rage and threatening to kill Mapleshade. That kind of makes the "regret" angle look really unconvincing and I don't believe it at all. A moment of anger is one thing, this was a long string of horrible decisions starting with the camp fight, neglecting kits in danger, and then continuing to show not a lick of sympathy and being ruled by her rage. One could make the argument that given time to get over it, she could have become more calm. But she squandered that chance by jumping straight into an adders' den, and in that regard she is no different from the likes of Clawface who got the Dark Forest when none of his compatriots did. But she'd already regretted half fo those long strings of decisions, it was only a moment of anger blinding her in the moment. I'll ask again, since i'm pretty confused by your point. When you say Frecklewish should show sympathy, how do you want her to do that? What do you want her to say? She'd already apalogized for their death, admitting that it wasn't in her intentions for them to die. Her being compared to Clawface is a stretch, imo. She didin't follow a tyrant and murder like Brokenstar and seemed to geniuely enjoy following his orders, she didin't kidnap kits, murder a medicine cat, and if his leader is exiled, follow him into exile. Also, as far as we know, the other cats regretted their actions, or didin't commit such crimes to be held in the Dark Forest.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 8, 2022 11:20:39 GMT -5
And Victoria Holmes confirmed her inspiration for Starclan and the cats religion is inspired from various christian teachings, and carries many of its undertones. But take that how you will. ugh i gotta rant about this for a second. i think borrowing elements of real-world religions to incorporate into a fantasy is fine, and can even be really interesting when done right. but its so obvious that the erins took only the most superficial aspects/traditions of religions without any understanding of the philosophic/theological principles that justify them. i've mentioned in the past that the medicine cat's no mate, no kits rule was clearly inspired by western catholic priests. IRL there are long-held traditions and beliefs from which this discipline originates. the erins didn't care about any IRL explanation, they just thought the end concept would be cool to implement for drama. so when they eventually had to explain the origin of the medicine cat code, they could only think of a single-minded, dumb explanation ("this one cat showed favoritism and it caused problems, so now nobody else can have mates/kits") that nobody was satisfied with. it's extremely shallow reasoning. and then they have essentially cat heaven and hell. which, cool, that's interesting. but they implement it without any concrete idea of how the afterlife works beyond a very loosely understood "sin" system that lacks observable value or consistency. this is fine if you keep the afterlife vague, and if characters remain pretty black or white. it becomes a problem as soon as you introduce morally gray characters. what choices are worthy of eternal damnation and what are redeemable aren't clear -- that's a big issue. basically what im trying to say is that the erin's fictional religion falls apart under even the slightest scrutiny. they borrowed a lot of external resemblance of real-life religion and slapped it onto their cat world without adopting any of the reasoning behind these borrowed elements. there's no in-world justification for any of it. the philosophy behind starclan and the dark forest could be really compelling if they had put actual thought into its structure and sense. only mildly related to the above rant: i feel like this series' afterlife would create less issues if they had a purgatory.
contrary to its frequent misportrayal in popular media, purgatory does not refer to a "medium place" or "waiting room" in the afterlife. in its actual theological definition, purgatory is a state of the soul (or place, if that is easier to conceptualize) prior to entering heaven in which the saved soul is cleansed of all remaining sins. the process is painful and the length of time is proportional to the soul's sins. so basically, although you are heaven-bound, you still suffer temporarily for any wrongs you committed on earth. (there's a long philosophical reason why but that isn't super important for this).
if warriors implemented a sort of purgatorial system in its afterlife, i feel like a lot of issues would be solved. characters who goofed up majorly once in their life but were otherwise good cats would still face repercussions for those wrongs in the afterlife before joining starclan. blackstar, mudclaw, and juniperclaw are great examples. or cats who lead a bad life but ultimately regretted it, like snowtuft. the dark forest would then be reserved for those that did not regret their bad choices (tigerstar, mapleshade, brokenstar, etc). time in purgatory might be reduced or nullified for repentant acts while alive (such as hollyleaf's self-exile, or juniperclaw drowning to save shadowsight).
it doesnt have to look/work exactly like the IRL purgatory concept, just something similar. that way cats who do wrong still face repercussions for their choices without condemning them completely to eternal punishment.
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Post by mean and green on Jan 8, 2022 11:23:04 GMT -5
I feel like this is why we needed a Mapleshade SE or an SE about this whole story in general instead of a novella since there isn't too much to go from in the novella. We could have learned more about these characters, like Frecklewish, instead of trying to analyze 1-2 lines in the book.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 8, 2022 11:35:15 GMT -5
as for the actual article, while their reasoning makes sense if we take it as Word of God canon, it does imply a few things that nonetheless make me uncomfortable with this conclusion.
Mainly, the article seems to imply that the primary reason Frecklewish went to the DF is because she didn't regret her actions (or lack thereof?). However, we know that Juniperclaw canonically regretted his bad choice before dying and actively tried to make up for it, but he still went to the DF.
I am also uncomfortable with the implication that if Frecklewish did anything less than potentially sacrifice herself to save the kits, she would be in the wrong. I understand that the article is saying it was lack of good intention that was the problem. But it also seems to suggest that failing to act for any reason is equivalent to breaking the code and thus DF worthy.
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Post by Goldy from Dappleclan on Jan 8, 2022 11:41:33 GMT -5
So she went to the DF because she didn't dive into a raging river?
Come on, her brother drowned and she isn't a Riverclan cat
If she'd tried to save the kits, she probably would have died
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 8, 2022 11:52:23 GMT -5
I think attacking the grieving mother because she got smacktalked is a bit excessive, doubly so if one believes she was going for the kill (saying you wish someone is dead while charging them aggressively is probably considered a threat on their life). This isn't a matter of honor, Mapleshade is an exiled and destitute wreck who has no standing whatsoever to damage her name any further. As for what Frecklewish could have done, hilariously enough she could have just called the patrol like she threatened to do. Or maybe displayed some form of contrition that isn't immediately negated by her flying into a rage and threatening to kill Mapleshade. That kind of makes the "regret" angle look really unconvincing and I don't believe it at all. A moment of anger is one thing, this was a long string of horrible decisions starting with the camp fight, neglecting kits in danger, and then continuing to show not a lick of sympathy and being ruled by her rage. One could make the argument that given time to get over it, she could have become more calm. But she squandered that chance by jumping straight into an adders' den, and in that regard she is no different from the likes of Clawface who got the Dark Forest when none of his compatriots did. But she'd already regretted half fo those long strings of decisions, it was only a moment of anger blinding her in the moment. I'll ask again, since i'm pretty confused by your point. When you say Frecklewish should show sympathy, how do you want her to do that? What do you want her to say? She'd already apalogized for their death, admitting that it wasn't in her intentions for them to die. Her being compared to Clawface is a stretch, imo. She didin't follow a tyrant and murder like Brokenstar and seemed to geniuely enjoy following his orders, she didin't kidnap kits, murder a medicine cat, and if his leader is exiled, follow him into exile. Also, as far as we know, the other cats regretted their actions, or didin't commit such crimes to be held in the Dark Forest. What regret are you talking about? I didn’t see any iron clad regret aside from her saying she didn’t want them to die, which rings hollow on account of what exactly did she think would happen? You and I view her statement in very different ways. I don’t see it as an apology given her immediate action after is to explode into a murderous rage. That also seems to be the article’s position, that it was just a deflection rather than real contrition. You are free to believe it was genuine but I don’t see it as such and that is the crux of the issue. My comparison to Clawface isn’t moral evil, it’s that if you die early on, before you can regret or make up for your actions, then that’s it. This is the situation Freckle finds herself in, dying too quickly after her string of horrible decisions to make up for it.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Jan 8, 2022 11:59:29 GMT -5
Awesome! Thanks, story team. In my opinion, Frecklewish got what she deserved. I do wish that Oakstar had ended up in there OR we get canon proof that he regretted his actions enough to make it into StarClan as he lived for a long time after that happened. I'm just happy that at least one sh*tty cat from MV made it into the DF.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 8, 2022 12:02:46 GMT -5
But she'd already regretted half fo those long strings of decisions, it was only a moment of anger blinding her in the moment. I'll ask again, since i'm pretty confused by your point. When you say Frecklewish should show sympathy, how do you want her to do that? What do you want her to say? She'd already apalogized for their death, admitting that it wasn't in her intentions for them to die. Her being compared to Clawface is a stretch, imo. She didin't follow a tyrant and murder like Brokenstar and seemed to geniuely enjoy following his orders, she didin't kidnap kits, murder a medicine cat, and if his leader is exiled, follow him into exile. Also, as far as we know, the other cats regretted their actions, or didin't commit such crimes to be held in the Dark Forest. What regret are you talking about? I didn’t see any iron clad regret aside from her saying she didn’t want them to die, which rings hollow on account of what exactly did she think would happen? You and I view her statement in very different ways. I don’t see it as an apology given her immediate action after is to explode into a murderous rage. That also seems to be the article’s position, that it was just a deflection rather than real contrition. You are free to believe it was genuine but I don’t see it as such and that is the crux of the issue. My comparison to Clawface isn’t moral evil, it’s that if you die early on, before you can regret or make up for your actions, then that’s it. This is the situation Freckle finds herself in, dying too quickly after her string of horrible decisions to make up for it. We may just have to agree to disagree. I see it as something genuine, you see it as a rushed answer. We can leave it at that, since we didin't get her POV, we can both have our interpretations.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 8, 2022 12:10:41 GMT -5
In case anyone wants a reference, here's the scene:
And here it is again in GC.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 8, 2022 12:16:42 GMT -5
The fact that she was seen with "sad" eyes might also imply she was sad/upset at the moment. Not a hint of satisfaction or enjoyment. Just pure sadness.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Jan 8, 2022 12:18:03 GMT -5
I would also be totally down to a Frecklewish redemption in ASC, if she ever appears.
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Post by *•.¸♡𝘥𝘢𝘸𝘯𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘦♡¸.•* on Jan 8, 2022 12:20:32 GMT -5
i think frecklewish would belong in the df it it weren’t for the fact that every other character on the same moral ground as her (and some of them worse) weren’t in starclan. i don’t really care about frecklewish but it’s ridiculous to only throw some kinda bad characters in instead of just establishing a limit to how bad a character can be to still get into starclan Exactly. This. I can excuse Clear Sky getting into StarClan as he literally founded a Clan, but Leopardstar and Blackstar? They're both worse than Frecklewish and got into StarClan.
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Aroace
#ffa100
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𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 8, 2022 12:22:47 GMT -5
The fact that she was seen with "sad" eyes might also imply she was sad/upset at the moment. Not a hint of satisfaction or enjoyment. Just pure sadness. I always thought it was more in relation to Frecklewish still being understandibly sad about her brother Birchface. Which made her initial fixation on the kits even more heartbreaking since she was seen to show some joy again after assuming he was their father.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Jan 8, 2022 12:24:12 GMT -5
Cloudstorm I mean from what I got from the article, it implies that she was watching the kits down, and possibly enjoyed it? idk if im just making a strech but thats whaat I got fro mthe article and if that is correct that is df worthy to be fair i did like the idea of her in there for story angles (like the opposite of ashfur. didnt deserve it but got it vs did deserve it and didnt) so once again a bit of bias there she’s also described as stiffening in shock, and responding to Mapleshade in a raspy voice, that could be indicative of becoming emotional, teary-eyes and regretting their deaths, so I would say she never truly intended or wanted the kits to die, and that the nasty things she said about them were out of grief in the height of the moment. And the article rides heavily on that she didn’t jump into the River, and very potentially risk herself drowning trying to save them as justification for damnation, which even if the action of not helping them, when there was plenty of other involved at the time lending help is considered breaking the code from negligence to a kits safety, it’s still 1 wrongdoing or slip-up and isn’t indicative that she was a rotten, contemptuous or malicious person/cat as a whole and is morally unjust to condemn someone over 1 mistake. Thats comparable to the department of transportation revoking your driver’s license indefinitely over 1 Traffic infraction or DUI charge, it’s needlessly harsh and cruel, and disparaging to deem ones moral constitution and soul as purely malignant from a singular violation of conduct. so unless they want to come out and say she was a malicious criminal the entirety of her life and a delinquent that enjoyed harming people in general like a psychopath, then no she shouldn’t be in The Dark Forest. Key word is 'could be' perhaps she was stiffening in shock because she didn't expect to be called out
I agree, i never expected her to jump in I think it comes down to more or less if she enjoyed watching the kits be swept away, the article implying she did
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Post by *•.¸♡𝘥𝘢𝘸𝘯𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘦♡¸.•* on Jan 8, 2022 12:30:43 GMT -5
This better have relevance in A Starless Clan (or maybe a novella on Frecklewish???) otherwise I don't see the point in making the change. Just to stir up arguments in the fandom? Really?
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 8, 2022 12:48:52 GMT -5
What regret are you talking about? I didn’t see any iron clad regret aside from her saying she didn’t want them to die, which rings hollow on account of what exactly did she think would happen? this reasoning seems a bit odd to me? you can be witness to someone else's tragedy and know its not gonna end well, and still be sad that it happened. if i see someone swept down rapids toward a big waterfall, and i know they will probably die, that expectation doesnt negate the fact that i dont want them to die. i know the article suggests that frecklewish didnt even consider helping, which is the actual issue. but your particular justification for why frecklewish saying "i didnt want them to die" is a hollow regret feels very off.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 8, 2022 13:05:07 GMT -5
The thing is, though, even in real life, it's advised that you don't jump in the water if you see someone drowning. If she went to the Dark Forest due to negligence, then I really don't get what StarClan expected Frecklewish to do.
Never mind that rushing rivers tend to be really loud, so it's not like she would've been able to yell for help, unless they expected her to at least try and save them? But then again, the book makes it clear that she even saw that Appledusk and his Clanmates were nearby, so I don't know.
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Post by jujiaanne on Jan 8, 2022 13:12:57 GMT -5
This series really needs a clear list of reasons to be sent to the Dark Forest. I don't think breaking one rule in the code gets you sent to the Dark Forest, protagonists break that rule every. Single. Arc. Clear Sky killed multiple cats and is in StarClan, he is without a doubt worse than Frecklewish. Cats like Tigerstar the first and Brokenstar are cats that deserve the Dark Forest, cats like Frecklewish, on the other hand, weren't the best, but don't exactly deserve the Dark Forest. Not too mention blackstar, Leopardstar, Russetfur, Needletail, Yellowfang, Bluestar, Leafpool. and Dustpelt and several others didn’t want to take in Daisy and her Kits, and technically by proxy, that could be construed as negligence of a kits safety by kicking her out back into the wild, soooooo there’s been plenty of incidences of cats doing horrible things, and breaking the code, but not being condemned. But apparently Frecklewish is worthy of eternal damnation because of her one falling out with a code, that many have broken but not been punished for, which makes absolutely zero sense and is completely unfair. And if slimebags like Clear Sky are deserving of entry, then Frecklewish is too. and to add on to that, as warriors fireheart and greystripe spied into riverclan camp during the first arc when greystripe wanted to see his children,this is the scene where we find out that tigerstar and leopardstar have allied shadowclan and riverclan, tigerstar is issuing that all half-clan cats are killed. stonefur is ordered to kill the featherpaw and stormpaw, he refuses to, then he is killed by blackstar instead, greystripe and fireheart watch this happen, they watch blackfoot kill stonefur, all of the riverclan and shadowclan cats watch blackfoot kill stonefur, just like frecklewish watched the kits being swept away by the brutal flood tide. does this mean that you can fairly argue that every single one of these cats also deserves a sentence to hell? both scenarios resemble eachother, a cat dies and others bystand. and whats more, greystripe and fireheart resort to saving greystripes children, which they manage, does this increase thrir crime? they saved greystripes children but not stonefur. when people argue that frecklewish should've tried to rescue the kits and mapleshade its completely unreasonable, and also means that fireheart and greystripe should've also put their own sancity at risk to save stonefur, which similarly to frecklewish's circumstance, would've put them in immediate danger. frecklewish genuinely thought that the kits would be saved, she couldnt not see or hear a sliver of them the moment they went under, she is not responsible for their deaths, and if somebody argues that she is, then fireheart and greystripe and every onlooker in the entire camp was responsible for stonefurs death.
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Post by jujiaanne on Jan 8, 2022 13:15:23 GMT -5
Not too mention blackstar, Leopardstar, Russetfur, Needletail, Yellowfang, Bluestar, Leafpool. and Dustpelt and several others didn’t want to take in Daisy and her Kits, and technically by proxy, that could be construed as negligence of a kits safety by kicking her out back into the wild, soooooo there’s been plenty of incidences of cats doing horrible things, and breaking the code, but not being condemned. But apparently Frecklewish is worthy of eternal damnation because of her one falling out with a code, that many have broken but not been punished for, which makes absolutely zero sense and is completely unfair. And if slimebags like Clear Sky are deserving of entry, then Frecklewish is too. and to add on to that, as warriors fireheart and greystripe spied into riverclan camp during the first arc when greystripe wanted to see his children,this is the scene where we find out that tigerstar and leopardstar have allied shadowclan and riverclan, tigerstar is issuing that all half-clan cats are killed. stonefur is ordered to kill the featherpaw and stormpaw, he refuses to, then he is killed by blackstar instead, greystripe and fireheart watch this happen, they watch blackfoot kill stonefur, all of the riverclan and shadowclan cats watch blackfoot kill stonefur, just like frecklewish watched the kits being swept away by the brutal flood tide. does this mean that you can fairly argue that every single one of these cats also deserves a sentence to hell? both scenarios resemble eachother, a cat dies and others bystand. and whats more, greystripe and fireheart resort to saving greystripes children, which they manage, does this increase thrir crime? they saved greystripes children but not stonefur. when people argue that frecklewish should've tried to rescue the kits and mapleshade its completely unreasonable, and also means that fireheart and greystripe should've also put their own sancity at risk to save stonefur, which similarly to frecklewish's circumstance, would've put them in immediate danger. frecklewish genuinely thought that the kits would be saved, she couldnt not see or hear a sliver of them the moment they went under, she is not responsible for their deaths, and if somebody argues that she is, then fireheart and greystripe and every onlooker in the entire camp was responsible for stonefurs death. PLEASE EXCUSE THE TYPOS OMG😭⁉️
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