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ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jan 8, 2022 21:16:07 GMT -5
I am glad she's in the Dark Forest because she never made any attempt to help. It isn't the matter of it being successful, as Jayfeather was unsuccessful in saving Flametail.
If memory serves me right, Graywing, the medicine cat that pushed the code, didn't bother helping the WindClan kits either. It was a lack of effort. Graywing made up for it, Frecklewish did not.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 8, 2022 21:21:27 GMT -5
See, my conflict is that I don't know whether to take this as Word of God, because these are "Erins" who didn't write the book they're talking about. Vicky wrote Mapleshade's Vengeance and Vicky said that, in her own opinion, Frecklewish probably went to StarClan. This is someone else taking her work and manipulating it, maybe because Frecklewish is gonna pop up as a minor or even major villain in ASC (which is the only reason I can think of as to why they're sticking so tightly to their guns). Ohhh I didn't know that. That does add a new element to it. Hmm. The fact that the original author saw the situation differently suggests that this is right back to the speculation issue.
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Post by cable on Jan 8, 2022 21:36:21 GMT -5
frecklewish has always been a super hard character for me to like solely because the fandom made me hate her for a while. i love characters who do terrible things out of grief, and clawing a mother across the face, calling her children “half-clan creatures” in front of them, and then demanding they be exiled into a storm is indeed a very terrible, scummy thing to do, regardless of your feelings. and the thing i love most is the aftermath, grappling with those emotions and deciding whether or not to accept youve done wrong and try to be better or just let that anger consume you. but the fandom just turns frecklewish into a sad crying baby who never did anything wrong and its annoying as hell. regardless of your stance on the river, what she said to those kits, and being the first to demand their exile? thats seriously messed up. and if the common fandom perception wasnt so boring and obnoxious id love to see her dealing with that in starclan.
as it is, all i can say is “okay” to this because i cant make myself enjoy her. its kinda funny how upset people are about a one-off character who exists to be angry and then die tho. lets bring this energy for stumpytail.
tbh, all im really annoyed about is oakstar not going to the dark forest. possibly ravenwing too. those two had the most power in that situation and both took steps that they knew would put kits in harm and didnt give a damn. theyre definitely more shitty than frecklewish.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Jan 8, 2022 21:50:31 GMT -5
So my brother* got back to me and while I don't think he cares enough to say if he thinks she belongs in the dark forest or not, he IS on the side of the people who say she should've done something. Not so much jumping in the water herself, but he thinks it should be relatively easy for her to have gotten the attention of the patrol even with the rain. He asked me if she watched it happen and said "that's pretty messed up" so there's the opinion of a professional
*he's in the coast guard and currently training for hurricane relief, but he's worked on the water for a few years. just as credentials
edit: to clarify he asked me if she watched mapleshade fall in, not if she watched them drown
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Post by Katanaheart on Jan 8, 2022 22:12:17 GMT -5
frecklewish has always been a super hard character for me to like solely because the fandom made me hate her for a while. i love characters who do terrible things out of grief, and clawing a mother across the face, calling her children “half-clan creatures” in front of them, and then demanding they be exiled into a storm is indeed a very terrible, scummy thing to do, regardless of your feelings. and the thing i love most is the aftermath, grappling with those emotions and deciding whether or not to accept youve done wrong and try to be better or just let that anger consume you. but the fandom just turns frecklewish into a sad crying baby who never did anything wrong and its annoying as hell. regardless of your stance on the river, what she said to those kits, and being the first to demand their exile? thats seriously messed up. and if the common fandom perception wasnt so boring and obnoxious id love to see her dealing with that in starclan. as it is, all i can say is “okay” to this because i cant make myself enjoy her. its kinda funny how upset people are about a one-off character who exists to be angry and then die tho. lets bring this energy for stumpytail. tbh, all im really annoyed about is oakstar not going to the dark forest. possibly ravenwing too. those two had the most power in that situation and both took steps that they knew would put kits in harm and didnt give a damn. theyre definitely more shitty than frecklewish. I wish there was energy for Stumpytail. I mean he was part of the attack with ShadowClan on Brokentail. He never left to be with Brokentail and the others. He likely died of sickness just like Nightstar and Cinderfur, yet the Dark Forest for some reason. Seriously, there’s no reason for him to be in the Dark Forest.
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Post by cable on Jan 8, 2022 22:27:14 GMT -5
frecklewish has always been a super hard character for me to like solely because the fandom made me hate her for a while. i love characters who do terrible things out of grief, and clawing a mother across the face, calling her children “half-clan creatures” in front of them, and then demanding they be exiled into a storm is indeed a very terrible, scummy thing to do, regardless of your feelings. and the thing i love most is the aftermath, grappling with those emotions and deciding whether or not to accept youve done wrong and try to be better or just let that anger consume you. but the fandom just turns frecklewish into a sad crying baby who never did anything wrong and its annoying as hell. regardless of your stance on the river, what she said to those kits, and being the first to demand their exile? thats seriously messed up. and if the common fandom perception wasnt so boring and obnoxious id love to see her dealing with that in starclan. as it is, all i can say is “okay” to this because i cant make myself enjoy her. its kinda funny how upset people are about a one-off character who exists to be angry and then die tho. lets bring this energy for stumpytail. tbh, all im really annoyed about is oakstar not going to the dark forest. possibly ravenwing too. those two had the most power in that situation and both took steps that they knew would put kits in harm and didnt give a damn. theyre definitely more shitty than frecklewish. I wish there was energy for Stumpytail. I mean he was part of the attack with ShadowClan on Brokentail. He never left to be with Brokentail and the others. He likely died of sickness just like Nightstar and Cinderfur, yet the Dark Forest for some reason. Seriously, there’s no reason for him to be in the Dark Forest. i thiiink tigerstars novella retconned him as one of brokenstars followers but like. i dont think he even died as a rogue. stumpytail is the most innocent guy here
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Post by Katanaheart on Jan 8, 2022 22:44:28 GMT -5
I wish there was energy for Stumpytail. I mean he was part of the attack with ShadowClan on Brokentail. He never left to be with Brokentail and the others. He likely died of sickness just like Nightstar and Cinderfur, yet the Dark Forest for some reason. Seriously, there’s no reason for him to be in the Dark Forest. i thiiink tigerstars novella retconned him as one of brokenstars followers but like. i dont think he even died as a rogue. stumpytail is the most innocent guy here I hate that. I’d rather ignore the novella in favor of canon information. Stumpytail shouldn’t be a random cat thrown in like Ratscar. He is seen elsewhere in the main books at a completely different place than Brokenstar’s rogues.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 9, 2022 3:40:13 GMT -5
I never said Blackstar wasn't bad? When did I even mention Blackstar. This is a discussion about Frecklewish and you were talking about Frecklewish. You have missed the entire point of what I'm saying. I'm not saying Frecklewish=Clawface in moral badness, the comparison I am making is that she is in a similar position to Clawface vs his compatriots. That is to say, they died while in a bad spot and so got the Dark Forest while their compatriots who did the exact same things didn't because they had the fortune to live longer and do good things later. I am not saying she is morally equivalent to Clawface, it is simply an analogy for why she'd be in the Dark Forest while some others may not be. Ohh, alright, I misunderstood you. Yes, that actually makes sense (even though Ravenwing died before he could do anything good again, but he is probably favored by StarClan because he is a medicine cat).
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 9, 2022 4:23:21 GMT -5
vectoring34 I’m not going to disagree that her watching the kits get swept away by the River without taking some initiative to put forth some effort to attempt to assist with a rescue if possible is an objectionably and morally bad decision. However, that’s not concrete enough grounds for eternal damnation because of 1 unjust act. And there’s no in-universe canon evidence in the book that explicitly proves that she found satisfaction in the kits demise, or witnessed them fall into the River, or that she didn’t stick around long enough to see the Riverclan patrol helping them to begin with before actually deciding to leave knowing they were being assisted. There’s really no concrete evidence backing up either side of the argument, and no I’m not considering the article as definitive proof, because it’s just personal opinions of the current writing teams interpretation of a piece of writing that Victoria Holmes personally wrote, and has confirmed that all of Mapleshades Victims in the book ascended to Starclan, so it’s safe to presume that The rest of frecklewish’s life was righteous enough that she was deserving of going to Starclan. But of course the current team probably has intentions of making her a villain for ASC for manipulating and changing Victoria Holmes interpretation of the characters in the book that she wrote personally by herself , that the current team had no involvement in of any kind. And while some will consider it appropriate, it’s imo an insult to Her work and personal interpretation of what’s considered right and wrong in the series that she literally is responsible for being so popular and still going Strong today. And while the current team isn’t legally obligated to honor the previous developers established world-building and lore that’s been built. They should at least attempt to keep things as consistent as possible in honor of the original creator, if they plan on making the proceeding work canonical and not a spin-off or reimagining of the original series(which I don’t have any problem with) if they want to retain their fanbase, which was much larger then what they have now. But if they want to change the original interpretation of the Original Authors work, then I guess there’s really no stopping it.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 9, 2022 10:46:23 GMT -5
You have missed the entire point of what I'm saying. I'm not saying Frecklewish=Clawface in moral badness, the comparison I am making is that she is in a similar position to Clawface vs his compatriots. That is to say, they died while in a bad spot and so got the Dark Forest while their compatriots who did the exact same things didn't because they had the fortune to live longer and do good things later. I am not saying she is morally equivalent to Clawface, it is simply an analogy for why she'd be in the Dark Forest while some others may not be. Ohh, alright, I misunderstood you. Yes, that actually makes sense (even though Ravenwing died before he could do anything good again, but he is probably favored by StarClan because he is a medicine cat). I'd argue that of the three, Ravenwing was least responsible for what happened to Mapleshade's kits. He's definitely not blameless. But he was a young, somewhat inexperienced medicine cat who legitimately thought he was just doing what was best for the clan (and thought he had a sign from StarClan). Whereas Oakstar and Frecklewish mainly wanted her exiled for personal reasons and used Ravenwing's omen as an excuse to enact revenge for her lie. It could also be that he regretted her exile when he heard what happened. The most consistent factor in afterlife judgement so far seems to be intention. Seems to me that Ravenwing's placement could be interpreted the same way as Mudclaw, insofar as his overall intention/motivation was the good of his clan, even if his choice was objectively wrong.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 9, 2022 11:40:42 GMT -5
Ohh, alright, I misunderstood you. Yes, that actually makes sense (even though Ravenwing died before he could do anything good again, but he is probably favored by StarClan because he is a medicine cat). I'd argue that of the three, Ravenwing was least responsible for what happened to Mapleshade's kits. He's definitely not blameless. But he was a young, somewhat inexperienced medicine cat who legitimately thought he was just doing what was best for the clan (and thought he had a sign from StarClan). Whereas Oakstar and Frecklewish mainly wanted her exiled for personal reasons and used Ravenwing's omen as an excuse to enact revenge for her lie. It could also be that he regretted her exile when he heard what happened. The most consistent factor in afterlife judgement so far seems to be intention. Seems to me that Ravenwing's placement could be interpreted the same way as Mudclaw, insofar as his overall intention/motivation was the good of his clan, even if his choice was objectively wrong. It's also possible that Ravenwing's omen actually was relevant and Mapleshade's kits did need to go.
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Post by Hollyfall on Jan 9, 2022 11:46:07 GMT -5
I don't care enough about Frecklewish to debate what afterlife she deserves, but all this article tells me is that this series needs a clear-cut list of rules or something as to what constitutes getting into StarClan vs Dark Forest. My issue isn't where she resides, but rather this flawed judgement system. Cats like Ashfur, Mudclaw, Skystar, Needletail, Oakstar, and Ravenwing (cats who did arguably worse than Frecklewish here) get access into heaven without a second thought.
I'm hoping something will be established in the next arc, given what happened with Ashfur, but that doesn't make it any less frustrating that there doesn't seem to be any form of clear-cut system that dictates who goes where. It's so inconsistently applied that it doesn't make sense.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jan 9, 2022 15:05:14 GMT -5
vectoring34 I’m not going to disagree that her watching the kits get swept away by the River without taking some initiative to put forth some effort to attempt to assist with a rescue if possible is an objectionably and morally bad decision. However, that’s not concrete enough grounds for eternal damnation because of 1 unjust act. And there’s no in-universe canon evidence in the book that explicitly proves that she found satisfaction in the kits demise, or witnessed them fall into the River, or that she didn’t stick around long enough to see the Riverclan patrol helping them to begin with before actually deciding to leave knowing they were being assisted. There’s really no concrete evidence backing up either side of the argument, and no I’m not considering the article as definitive proof, because it’s just personal opinions of the current writing teams interpretation of a piece of writing that Victoria Holmes personally wrote, and has confirmed that all of Mapleshades Victims in the book ascended to Starclan, so it’s safe to presume that The rest of frecklewish’s life was righteous enough that she was deserving of going to Starclan. But of course the current team probably has intentions of making her a villain for ASC for manipulating and changing Victoria Holmes interpretation of the characters in the book that she wrote personally by herself , that the current team had no involvement in of any kind. And while some will consider it appropriate, it’s imo an insult to Her work and personal interpretation of what’s considered right and wrong in the series that she literally is responsible for being so popular and still going Strong today. And while the current team isn’t legally obligated to honor the previous developers established world-building and lore that’s been built. They should at least attempt to keep things as consistent as possible in honor of the original creator, if they plan on making the proceeding work canonical and not a spin-off or reimagining of the original series(which I don’t have any problem with) if they want to retain their fanbase, which was much larger then what they have now. But if they want to change the original interpretation of the Original Authors work, then I guess there’s really no stopping it. I think just calling it "1 unjust act" is...not fair? She literally lets CHILDREN drown without attempting to do anything. If someone did that in human society, without calling for help or anything and just walking away, they'd be hated by society - because not protecting children is inherently DISGUSTING. The rest of Frecklewish's life wasn't righteous? She literally tries to kill Mapleshade in the rest of her life and then gets bitten by an adder from her aggressiveness. Frecklewish did a morally reprehensible thing and then never got to repent for it. Protecting kits is in the code. And it's a VERY important code. Because children are innocent
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Post by *•.¸♡𝘥𝘢𝘸𝘯𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘦♡¸.•* on Jan 9, 2022 15:12:17 GMT -5
Others have said this before, but I wouldn't have a problem with Frecklewish being in the Dark Forest if there weren't cats so much worse than her in StarClan. Russetfur and her patrol did almost the exact same thing as Frecklewish except they could've helped Berrykit and they wouldn't have died (also minus the fact that kits died, Frecklewish was in much more extreme and risky circumstances), yet when Russetfur dies she goes to StarClan. Cats like Blackstar literally murdered an elder and a deputy who was protecting apprentices, when he died he went to StarClan. Frecklewish isn't perfect and she could've tried to do something, but there are cats worse than her that went to StarClan.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jan 9, 2022 15:18:51 GMT -5
Others have said this before, but I wouldn't have a problem with Frecklewish being in the Dark Forest if there weren't cats so much worse than her in StarClan. Russetfur and her patrol did almost the exact same thing as Frecklewish except they could've helped Berrykit and they wouldn't have died (also minus the fact that kits died, Frecklewish was in much more extreme and risky circumstances), yet when Russetfur dies she goes to StarClan. Cats like Blackstar literally murdered an elder and a deputy who was protecting apprentices, when he died he went to StarClan. Frecklewish isn't perfect and she could've tried to do something, but there are cats worse than her that went to StarClan. Blackstar goes to Starclan because he regrets his actions and goes on to be one of the best leaders of Shadowclan, and is generally a pretty just cat. Russetfur also had a decent, more moral life outside of the Berrynose incident (such as helping Sasha's kits and being a decent deputy) Frecklewish never gets to repent for her actions, and likely doesn't regret them. It seems like she's startled that Mapleshade knows she watched as opposed to any regret
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Post by *•.¸♡𝘥𝘢𝘸𝘯𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘦♡¸.•* on Jan 9, 2022 15:22:50 GMT -5
Others have said this before, but I wouldn't have a problem with Frecklewish being in the Dark Forest if there weren't cats so much worse than her in StarClan. Russetfur and her patrol did almost the exact same thing as Frecklewish except they could've helped Berrykit and they wouldn't have died (also minus the fact that kits died, Frecklewish was in much more extreme and risky circumstances), yet when Russetfur dies she goes to StarClan. Cats like Blackstar literally murdered an elder and a deputy who was protecting apprentices, when he died he went to StarClan. Frecklewish isn't perfect and she could've tried to do something, but there are cats worse than her that went to StarClan. Blackstar goes to Starclan because he regrets his actions and goes on to be one of the best leaders of Shadowclan, and is generally a pretty just cat. Russetfur also had a decent, more moral life outside of the Berrynose incident (such as helping Sasha's kits and being a decent deputy) Frecklewish never gets to repent for her actions, and likely doesn't regret them. It seems like she's startled that Mapleshade knows she watched as opposed to any regret I honestly can't really argue with that. I just wish that the cats in the Dark Forest were all on a similar level of terrible. Frecklewish is no where near as bad as cats like Brokenstar were. If Frecklewish were to go anywhere I think it would be some sort of middle ground between StarClan and the Dark Forest.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jan 9, 2022 15:26:17 GMT -5
Blackstar goes to Starclan because he regrets his actions and goes on to be one of the best leaders of Shadowclan, and is generally a pretty just cat. Russetfur also had a decent, more moral life outside of the Berrynose incident (such as helping Sasha's kits and being a decent deputy) Frecklewish never gets to repent for her actions, and likely doesn't regret them. It seems like she's startled that Mapleshade knows she watched as opposed to any regret I honestly can't really argue with that. I just wish that the cats in the Dark Forest were all on a similar level of terrible. Frecklewish is no where near as bad as cats like Brokenstar were. If Frecklewish were to go anywhere I think it would be some sort of middle ground between StarClan and the Dark Forest. It's a little inconsistent, but Frecklewish definitely did a really nasty thing towards children, so I'm not really upset either? I just know people keep bringing up Blackstar, but I think he was handled well in his novella? At his leadership ceremony, it's pretty intense, he feels pain, he's faced with his sins, asks for forgiveness and genuinely regrets, and doesn't even necessarily get that. He's very complex and well-written to me, while Frecklewish's whole character is kind of centered on her sins? It's hard to compare them I think Oakstar going to the DF would have been okay though
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Post by *•.¸♡𝘥𝘢𝘸𝘯𝘳𝘰𝘴𝘦♡¸.•* on Jan 9, 2022 15:33:40 GMT -5
I honestly can't really argue with that. I just wish that the cats in the Dark Forest were all on a similar level of terrible. Frecklewish is no where near as bad as cats like Brokenstar were. If Frecklewish were to go anywhere I think it would be some sort of middle ground between StarClan and the Dark Forest. It's a little inconsistent, but Frecklewish definitely did a really nasty thing towards children, so I'm not really upset either? I just know people keep bringing up Blackstar, but I think he was handled well in his novella? At his leadership ceremony, it's pretty intense, he feels pain, he's faced with his sins, asks for forgiveness and genuinely regrets, and doesn't even necessarily get that. He's very complex and well-written to me, while Frecklewish's whole character is kind of centered on her sins? It's hard to compare them I think Oakstar going to the DF would have been okay though We also have a lot more content on Blackstar as he's a more major character along with being a leader, Frecklewish is more minor and I don't think we get to see her being a normal warrior, she's in like 2 or three books while Blackstar has a whole novella to himself, along with having a life that we actually see outside of the bad things he's done. Who knows, maybe Frecklewish was actually a really nice cat up until Mapleshade's Vengeance. I'm just hoping for some in-book content on this because it's started quite the debate in the fandom. Also yeah Oakstar should've gone to the Dark Forest.
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Post by tema on Jan 9, 2022 16:12:48 GMT -5
Ohh, alright, I misunderstood you. Yes, that actually makes sense (even though Ravenwing died before he could do anything good again, but he is probably favored by StarClan because he is a medicine cat). I'd argue that of the three, Ravenwing was least responsible for what happened to Mapleshade's kits. He's definitely not blameless. But he was a young, somewhat inexperienced medicine cat who legitimately thought he was just doing what was best for the clan (and thought he had a sign from StarClan). Whereas Oakstar and Frecklewish mainly wanted her exiled for personal reasons and used Ravenwing's omen as an excuse to enact revenge for her lie. It could also be that he regretted her exile when he heard what happened. The most consistent factor in afterlife judgement so far seems to be intention. Seems to me that Ravenwing's placement could be interpreted the same way as Mudclaw, insofar as his overall intention/motivation was the good of his clan, even if his choice was objectively wrong. Ravenwing was not acting out of altruism. His attitude on MV was pure spite when he confronted Mapleshade and didn't bother humoring some soft mercy-pleading for the innocent children when he revealed their parents to the Clan. He was as bitter as the rest.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jan 9, 2022 17:56:58 GMT -5
Others have said this before, but I wouldn't have a problem with Frecklewish being in the Dark Forest if there weren't cats so much worse than her in StarClan. Russetfur and her patrol did almost the exact same thing as Frecklewish except they could've helped Berrykit and they wouldn't have died (also minus the fact that kits died, Frecklewish was in much more extreme and risky circumstances), yet when Russetfur dies she goes to StarClan. Cats like Blackstar literally murdered an elder and a deputy who was protecting apprentices, when he died he went to StarClan. Frecklewish isn't perfect and she could've tried to do something, but there are cats worse than her that went to StarClan. Blackstar goes to Starclan because he regrets his actions and goes on to be one of the best leaders of Shadowclan, and is generally a pretty just cat. Russetfur also had a decent, more moral life outside of the Berrynose incident (such as helping Sasha's kits and being a decent deputy) Frecklewish never gets to repent for her actions, and likely doesn't regret them. It seems like she's startled that Mapleshade knows she watched as opposed to any regret THIS ^ this is what i believe too and that's all i'll say on the matter.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 9, 2022 18:01:00 GMT -5
ottersplash that’s all speculation and circumstantial evidence that there is absolutely zero definitive proof that she even saw the kits fall into the River and get sweated away by the raging flood, exactly how close or far away she was observing the events unfold, or what all she witnessed to begin with. And given the current weather conditions, and the noise of the flooding river she probably most certainly didn’t hear the kits wailing either. And there’s a very high probability she’s developed some level of trauma-induced aquaphobia from watching the horrifying tragedy of her brother birchface and flowerpaw drowning, though we could argue that’s not explicitly elaborated on, but neither is nothing else presented in the article, and in fact it makes some blatant contradictions. It say’s she shows no remorse, but she’s described as stiffening with shock and surprise when the revelation is revealed to her by Mapleshade, which is indicative that there’s a probability she wasn’t even privy to the information that the kits fell into the River and drowned in the first place. And she rasps her reply “ i didn’t mean for your kits to drown” which is very indicative of her being genuine and showing emotion and being remorseful and regretful that it happened. And there’s not a shred of evidence that that indicates that Frecklewish proactively seeked revenge against Mapleshade, and it’s not until after being provoked and coerced and belittled by Mapleshade Several times does she lash out in anger. That article is very clearly imo to have been written by a Mapleshade apologist as it reeks with her sentiment and delusional and warped sense of logic and morality. And pretty clearly the story team has never actually Read Victoria’s book MV to begin with, and have zero understanding of it. Her only fallacy is not responding to a situation that she may or may not been cognitive too, or didn’t react to a situation quickly enough that undoubtedly took place very rapidly, or approaching dangerous, raging rapids that she could of easily gotten swept into and drowned herself, is not something I’d consider to be negligence, and even if so certainly not deserving of spending eternity in hell for.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Jan 9, 2022 18:10:34 GMT -5
ottersplash that’s all speculation and circumstantial evidence that there is absolutely zero definitive proof that she even saw the kits fall into the River and get sweated away by the raging flood, exactly how close or far away she was observing the events unfold, or what all she witnessed to begin with. And given the current weather conditions, and the noise of the flooding river she probably most certainly didn’t hear the kits wailing either. And there’s a very high probability she’s developed some level of trauma-induced aquaphobia from watching the horrifying tragedy of her brother birchface and flowerpaw drowning, though we could argue that’s not explicitly elaborated on, but neither is nothing else presented in the article, and in fact it makes some blatant contradictions. It say’s she shows no remorse, but she’s described as stiffening with shock and surprise when the revelation is revealed to her by Mapleshade, which is indicative that there’s a probability she wasn’t even privy to the information that the kits fell into the River and drowned in the first place. And she rasps her reply “ i didn’t mean for your kits to drown” which is very indicative of her being genuine and showing emotion and being remorseful and regretful that it happened. And there’s not a shred of evidence that that indicates that Frecklewish proactively seeked revenge against Mapleshade, and it’s not until after being provoked and coerced and belittled by Mapleshade Several times does she lash out in anger. That article is very clearly imo to have been written by a Mapleshade apologist as it reeks with her sentiment and delusional and warped sense of logic and morality. And pretty clearly the story team has never actually Read Victoria’s book MV to begin with, and have zero understanding of it. Her only fallacy is not responding to a situation that she may or may not been cognitive too, or didn’t react to a situation quickly enough that undoubtedly took place very rapidly, or approaching dangerous, raging rapids that she could of easily gotten swept into and drowned herself, is not something I’d consider to be negligence, and even if so certainly not deserving of spending eternity in hell for. This. Mapleshade made a story up in her head, and the whole point of the book is to show that she really isn't a reliable source of information about a situation she and we didn't know anything about in the pov of Frecklewish. Mapleshade assumes thinks and makes up a whole story so she can justify her lust for revenge and killing Frecklewish, and the writers of this article took this story for granted while the whole point of Vicky was to show that Mapleshade was making these things up. Vicky herself told us that she imagined Frecklewish to be in StarClan, not long after she wrote MV, which means her ideas and intensions when writing the book were still fresh in her head and she knew what she was talking about. The new team just messes with Vicky's creations.
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Post by *Faith* on Jan 9, 2022 19:02:25 GMT -5
i thiiink tigerstars novella retconned him as one of brokenstars followers but like. i dont think he even died as a rogue. stumpytail is the most innocent guy here I hate that. I’d rather ignore the novella in favor of canon information. Stumpytail shouldn’t be a random cat thrown in like Ratscar. He is seen elsewhere in the main books at a completely different place than Brokenstar’s rogues. He was also a part of Brokenstar's rogues in Blackfoot's Reckoning, but in the main series he was still listed in the ShC allegiances all the way up to Rising Storm. According to the wiki, he only appeared in Forest of Secrets.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Jan 9, 2022 19:59:09 GMT -5
ottersplash that’s all speculation and circumstantial evidence that there is absolutely zero definitive proof that she even saw the kits fall into the River and get sweated away by the raging flood, exactly how close or far away she was observing the events unfold, or what all she witnessed to begin with. And given the current weather conditions, and the noise of the flooding river she probably most certainly didn’t hear the kits wailing either. And there’s a very high probability she’s developed some level of trauma-induced aquaphobia from watching the horrifying tragedy of her brother birchface and flowerpaw drowning, though we could argue that’s not explicitly elaborated on, but neither is nothing else presented in the article, and in fact it makes some blatant contradictions. It say’s she shows no remorse, but she’s described as stiffening with shock and surprise when the revelation is revealed to her by Mapleshade, which is indicative that there’s a probability she wasn’t even privy to the information that the kits fell into the River and drowned in the first place. And she rasps her reply “ i didn’t mean for your kits to drown” which is very indicative of her being genuine and showing emotion and being remorseful and regretful that it happened. And there’s not a shred of evidence that that indicates that Frecklewish proactively seeked revenge against Mapleshade, and it’s not until after being provoked and coerced and belittled by Mapleshade Several times does she lash out in anger. That article is very clearly imo to have been written by a Mapleshade apologist as it reeks with her sentiment and delusional and warped sense of logic and morality. And pretty clearly the story team has never actually Read Victoria’s book MV to begin with, and have zero understanding of it. Her only fallacy is not responding to a situation that she may or may not been cognitive too, or didn’t react to a situation quickly enough that undoubtedly took place very rapidly, or approaching dangerous, raging rapids that she could of easily gotten swept into and drowned herself, is not something I’d consider to be negligence, and even if so certainly not deserving of spending eternity in hell for. Except we KNOW Frecklewish knows they fell into the river. Her stiffening could also be indicative of the fact she never thought Mapleshade would find out she was watching Also, it doesn't matter what Mapleshade's morality was. It is inherently immoral to watch children down and take no action. Please don't bring up 'She could have drowned!' People just wish she had done SOMETHING. She makes no attempt. She sees the kits fall in, shrugs, and walks away. If you did that in our society, you would be met with scorn because it's disgusting and immoral. I cannot imagine seeing a child fall into water and start to drown and not scream for help of some kind.
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Post by Katanaheart on Jan 9, 2022 20:07:07 GMT -5
I hate that. I’d rather ignore the novella in favor of canon information. Stumpytail shouldn’t be a random cat thrown in like Ratscar. He is seen elsewhere in the main books at a completely different place than Brokenstar’s rogues. He was also a part of Brokenstar's rogues in Blackfoot's Reckoning, but in the main series he was still listed in the ShC allegiances all the way up to Rising Storm. According to the wiki, he only appeared in Forest of Secrets. Very annoying, I wish they had left him be. Especially when he had a scene showing him on a different side entirely.
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Post by insertusername on Jan 9, 2022 20:14:39 GMT -5
I honestly can't really argue with that. I just wish that the cats in the Dark Forest were all on a similar level of terrible. Frecklewish is no where near as bad as cats like Brokenstar were. If Frecklewish were to go anywhere I think it would be some sort of middle ground between StarClan and the Dark Forest. It's a little inconsistent, but Frecklewish definitely did a really nasty thing towards children, so I'm not really upset either? I just know people keep bringing up Blackstar, but I think he was handled well in his novella? At his leadership ceremony, it's pretty intense, he feels pain, he's faced with his sins, asks for forgiveness and genuinely regrets, and doesn't even necessarily get that. He's very complex and well-written to me, while Frecklewish's whole character is kind of centered on her sins? It's hard to compare them I think Oakstar going to the DF would have been okay though If we're talking about Blackfoot's Reckoning, that's a pile of garbage that's not actually a redemption, but a bunch of empty words. Real redemption should come when he apologizes to Mistyfoot, Stormpaw, Featherpaw, and the ShadowClan queens whose kits were killed under Brokenstar and Tigerstar, and he actually takes actions in the immediate aftermath of The Darkest Hour to redeem himself. It's entirely possible he did this offscreen, but that novella was a wasted opportunity. Blackfoot's actions were worse than Frecklewish's (direct murder > indirect death). If the issue is simply that Frecklewish didn't have enough time to redeem herself, that's also poor reasoning. It was luck that she was killed by Mapleshade, does that mean that whether a morally grey character going to StarClan or the Dark Forest is up to luck? That's also garbage. It's bad no matter which way you turn.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 9, 2022 20:52:08 GMT -5
It's a little inconsistent, but Frecklewish definitely did a really nasty thing towards children, so I'm not really upset either? I just know people keep bringing up Blackstar, but I think he was handled well in his novella? At his leadership ceremony, it's pretty intense, he feels pain, he's faced with his sins, asks for forgiveness and genuinely regrets, and doesn't even necessarily get that. He's very complex and well-written to me, while Frecklewish's whole character is kind of centered on her sins? It's hard to compare them I think Oakstar going to the DF would have been okay though If we're talking about Blackfoot's Reckoning, that's a pile of garbage that's not actually a redemption, but a bunch of empty words. Real redemption should come when he apologizes to Mistyfoot, Stormpaw, Featherpaw, and the ShadowClan queens whose kits were killed under Brokenstar and Tigerstar, and he actually takes actions in the immediate aftermath of The Darkest Hour to redeem himself. It's entirely possible he did this offscreen, but that novella was a wasted opportunity. Blackfoot's actions were worse than Frecklewish's (direct murder > indirect death). If the issue is simply that Frecklewish didn't have enough time to redeem herself, that's also poor reasoning. It was luck that she was killed by Mapleshade, does that mean that whether a morally grey character going to StarClan or the Dark Forest is up to luck? That's also garbage. It's bad no matter which way you turn. You're right that luck of when you die matters, but that's always been how it worked from the very moment the Dark Forest as a concept came up. Two cats who did the same things can end up in different places if one of them dies earlier than the other, because what's more important for afterlife qualifications seems to be what condition you are in when you die.
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Post by cable on Jan 9, 2022 21:21:48 GMT -5
I'd argue that of the three, Ravenwing was least responsible for what happened to Mapleshade's kits. He's definitely not blameless. But he was a young, somewhat inexperienced medicine cat who legitimately thought he was just doing what was best for the clan (and thought he had a sign from StarClan). Whereas Oakstar and Frecklewish mainly wanted her exiled for personal reasons and used Ravenwing's omen as an excuse to enact revenge for her lie. It could also be that he regretted her exile when he heard what happened. The most consistent factor in afterlife judgement so far seems to be intention. Seems to me that Ravenwing's placement could be interpreted the same way as Mudclaw, insofar as his overall intention/motivation was the good of his clan, even if his choice was objectively wrong. Ravenwing was not acting out of altruism. His attitude on MV was pure spite when he confronted Mapleshade and didn't bother humoring some soft mercy-pleading for the innocent children when he revealed their parents to the Clan. He was as bitter as the rest. ravenwing literally said he knew the kits would suffer and did nothing but “stare coldly” as they were exiled even though as a medicine cat he has a lot of political power to try to protect them. i dont care that he was young and inexperienced- he was a grown adult who had his full name already. medicine cats often get their names later than warrior apprentices since their training takes longer, meaning he was likely older than the average new warrior when he was left with medicine cat duties. its not too much to expect him to do what literally any decent person would and speak up for the safety of children. like, literally all we were told his vision consisted of was reeds being washed into camp. if he took that as a sign of kits needing to be exiled then i really dont have any pity to spare.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jan 9, 2022 21:53:59 GMT -5
"Frecklewish could have drowned." She didn't need to jump into the river to help, that's how Appledusk saved Mapleshade and he's a Riverclan cat.
"The patrol probably wouldn't be able to hear Frecklewish." if Mapleshade could hear Appledusk, with a concussion, and being swept down a raging river, then I'm sure a patrol would be able to hear, or even see Frecklewish if she ran along the shore.
"Frecklewish didn't know they fell in." Nettlepaw literally told Mapleshade she saw it happening and walked away and did nothing, it's literally the reason why Mapleshade targeted Frecklewish in the first place.
"There was nothing Frecklewish could do." It's not about her being successful in saving the kits or not, it's about her not even bothering to try in the first place.
"Ravenwing couldn't have known they'd be exiled." He says it himself that he knew they would suffer, looked on coldly while she was put on trial, and did nothing to step in for the sake of the kits's safety.
"Ravenwing is young and inexperienced." yet when he made the accusation and talked about the omen, he didn't necessarily seem so young and inexperienced; "Ravenwing gazed at her, and suddenly he didn’t seem like a young, inexperienced cat anymore. Knowledge glittered in his eyes like frosty stars."
"Other cats did worse and got into StarClan." As annoying and inconsistent as StarClan is, those cats also did something to make up for what they did in life, technically acting within their right or the code, or were unfairly murdered. Frecklewish doesn't fall under any of those, and in her last moments decided to attack a mother with malicious intent and ended up causing her own demise. I'm not saying every choice that got into StarClan was the right choice, but considering Frecklewish's last choices and moments, she did nothing redeemable to put her in StarClan. Even a cheating scum bag like Appledusk was willing to die protecting his unborn kits, his mistress, and his apprentice. Which is ironic.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 9, 2022 22:58:52 GMT -5
ottersplash where does it say in the book that she watched the kits fall into the River? We only have Nettlepaw saying she saw Mapleshade fall in. And obviously children falling into a raging River are going to cry out for help, but there’s no confirming that she was actually within close enough earshot to hear their wails for help above the noise of a flooding river and rainstorm, nor that she was just cackling maliciously to herself while witnessing the spectacle. And while yes it would be socially unacceptable to watch a child drown if it was applicable to save them, but your not going to get charged and sentenced for Murder or Negligence because you don’t risk your life or take some kind of action to attempt a rescue(unless of course your the parent, and we’re being irresponsible and neglectful to your child’s safety which resulted in them to be trapped in dangerous waters to begin with). And in the case you find yourself alongside a rapidly flowing river, with whitewater rapids, dangerous eddies and riffles and such and someone gets swept screaming by at 20+ mph were you know for it to be futile and would inevitably end up drowning yourself trying to save them. Your inaction by not jumping in to your death isn’t malicious, sadistic or in any way dishonorable or a condemnable offense of any kind. Nor does it mean your apathetic and unfeeling to the persons suffering or wished harm upon them to begin with or that you are inherently a bad person. And even if we are deem being a character witness to a tragedy without taking measures to offer help, which in this case probably wouldn’t of made a difference, as negligence, she’d still wouldn’t be damnable to hell for eternity over one black mark. And there’s no indication or evidence even remotely suggesting that she took pride or found any sadistic satisfaction or pleasure from the kits drowning, but there is pretty clear indication of her being remorseful and haunted by the whole ordeal. And no I’m taking that ridiculous article as any kind of proof or evidence, as I basically consider it a false witness or testimony that completely contradicts and backpedals the whole purpose of the MV to begin with. Which is to showcase how delusional, warped and unhinged Mapleshade is in her perception of what happened, and to show how vindictive and incapable she is of taking responsibility for her actions and will point blame upon anyone but herself for horrible tragedies that have befallen her, and that’s she unwilling to make any type of atonement or amendment for her transgressions. And instead becomes a vengeful and spiteful cat hellbent on exacting revenge. And by making assumptions and pegging Frecklewish, Oakstar and Ravenwing and Appledusk are criminals deserving of the Dark Forest for what they did. Than that opens up the question “ was Mapleshade Murdering them considered unjust, since she’d only be taking out criminals?” which by that point might as well just throw MV out the window altogether, since that would be defeating it’s whole purpose of being written at all.
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