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Post by MadameDelune on Nov 26, 2021 21:03:37 GMT -5
What are your thoughts? I’m absolutely loving the change.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 26, 2021 21:33:52 GMT -5
im gonna assusme she's in there for breaking the code about letting a kit be hurt/in danger.
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Nov 26, 2021 21:51:07 GMT -5
my thoughts are that she's actually there for secretly having plans to become an evil generic villain which were cut short only by bad Mapleshade timing
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Nov 26, 2021 22:21:31 GMT -5
I'm pretty neutral on it.
Makes me wish we'd get more judgment scenes though? Like, does how soft your jury is determine where you go? Leafpool would have gone to the DF if Moth Flight had her way. How was Ashfur spared? Did Mudclaw only slip by because Tallstar was at his and felt bad?
Did Frecklewish get stuck with the cats who made the codes of no apprentices before a certain age? the cats who made the rule about helping all kits?
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Post by cable on Nov 27, 2021 0:21:43 GMT -5
its so funny people are genuinely really angry about it lol. most of my hate for frecklewish is out of spite but like. i love this and i only wish she had taken ravenwing and oakstar with her.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 27, 2021 2:04:45 GMT -5
I'm pretty neutral on it. Makes me wish we'd get more judgment scenes though? Like, does how soft your jury is determine where you go? Leafpool would have gone to the DF if Moth Flight had her way. How was Ashfur spared? Did Mudclaw only slip by because Tallstar was at his and felt bad? Did Frecklewish get stuck with the cats who made the codes of no apprentices before a certain age? the cats who made the rule about helping all kits? i'd like to think that cats who followed whatever codes were around when they were alive got to starclan. putting them in the dark forest before a code is even set in stone is even more dumb than the starclan trials
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Post by Aqua on Nov 27, 2021 2:05:28 GMT -5
its so funny people are genuinely really angry about it lol. most of my hate for frecklewish is out of spite but like. i love this and i only wish she had taken ravenwing and oakstar with her. Oakstar and Frecklewish probably deserved it, but not Ravenwing. He was just doing his job and I don't really blame him for not wanting to keep quiet for a disloyal cat who broke the code. He had to pick his clan over Mapleshade. Maybe he should've spoken up when Oakstar exiled her and the kits, but that was the only questionable thing he had done. He was a medicine cat doing his job, being honest to his clan about Mapleshade's disloyalty. Also nobody's gonna change my mind so please don't debate. Thanks.
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Post by crowspirit on Nov 27, 2021 2:21:51 GMT -5
Frecklewish called the kits half - clan creatures and attacked their mother in front of them, that's really messed up. She also didn't try to help them because “the RiverClan cats were already helping them”, but I think that's just a stupid excuse. Firestar jumped into the gorge after being attacked by dogs to save Bluestar, a completely fit Frecklewish could have at least tried to help the kits. Or at least stay there and wait until she's sure they're okay. I do feel kind of bad for her though because she'd just lost her brother and definitely wasn't completely sane, but her behavior was still quite disgusting.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 27, 2021 3:54:51 GMT -5
Frecklewish called the kits half - clan creatures and attacked their mother in front of them, that's really messed up. She also didn't try to help them because “the RiverClan cats were already helping them”, but I think that's just a stupid excuse. Firestar jumped into the gorge after being attacked by dogs to save Bluestar, a completely fit Frecklewish could have at least tried to help the kits. Or at least stay there and wait until she's sure they're okay. I do feel kind of bad for her though because she'd just lost her brother and definitely wasn't completely sane, but her behavior was still quite disgusting. frecklewish literally said "not my problem" and let the kits drown oof
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 27, 2021 4:13:34 GMT -5
Oh? An early holiday gift, lol.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 27, 2021 4:18:09 GMT -5
She wasn't portrayed the best in Mapleshade's vengeance, but that's all we got to see of her. She may have been a bit cruel at the time, but given the circumstance that her brother just died and the person who she thought was her friend is dating his accidental murder (And also using her dead brother to cover up for her codebreaking). It makes sense that she's angry, though she did not go about it in the right way.
She may not have acted right in the moment, but we only got a glimpse at her when she was at her worse. It's not fair to give her a spot in the dark forest based on her actions in MV. She made a mistake, but mapleshade brutally murdered her with a snake before she could ever do anything to try and make up for it.
And about the kits thing, I don't think she did the right thing but I don't think she thought the kits were going to die based on her reaction when mapleshade comes to kill her. It's messed up, but then again it's through mapleshade's perspective. We never got to know frecklewish side of the story.
Then again, her character is all up to interpretation so I can see why others might hate her.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 27, 2021 4:22:07 GMT -5
She wasn't portrayed the best in Mapleshade's vengeance, but that's all we got to see of her. She may have been a bit cruel at the time, but given the circumstance that her brother just died and the person who she thought was her friend is dating his accidental murder (And also using her dead brother to cover up for her codebreaking). It makes sense that she's angry, though she did not go about it in the right way. She may not have acted right in the moment, but we only got a glimpse at her when she was at her worse. It's not fair to give her a spot in the dark forest based on her actions in MV. She made a mistake, but mapleshade brutally murdered her with a snake before she could ever do anything to try and make up for it. And about the kits thing, I don't think she did the right thing but I don't think she thought the kits were going to die based on her reaction when mapleshade comes to kill her. It's messed up, but then again it's through mapleshade's perspective. We never got to know frecklewish side of the story. Then again, her character is all up to interpretation so I can see why others might hate her. Frecklewish caused her own death. If Frecklewish hadn't jumped at Mapleshade and attacked her a second time, she wouldn't have died. All Mapleshade had to do was side step and dodge Frecklewish, which caused her to collide into a snake and get bit in the first place. Instead of doing the logical thing and going back to the safety of her patrol, she chose to attack Mapleshade after wishing death on her. And also after admitting that she witnessed Mapleshade and the kits drowning before literally walking away from the situation. Her actions were her own fault. And leaving children to die is not a "mistake" imo, it's just downright heartless.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 27, 2021 4:28:17 GMT -5
She wasn't portrayed the best in Mapleshade's vengeance, but that's all we got to see of her. She may have been a bit cruel at the time, but given the circumstance that her brother just died and the person who she thought was her friend is dating his accidental murder (And also using her dead brother to cover up for her codebreaking). It makes sense that she's angry, though she did not go about it in the right way. She may not have acted right in the moment, but we only got a glimpse at her when she was at her worse. It's not fair to give her a spot in the dark forest based on her actions in MV. She made a mistake, but mapleshade brutally murdered her with a snake before she could ever do anything to try and make up for it. And about the kits thing, I don't think she did the right thing but I don't think she thought the kits were going to die based on her reaction when mapleshade comes to kill her. It's messed up, but then again it's through mapleshade's perspective. We never got to know frecklewish side of the story. Then again, her character is all up to interpretation so I can see why others might hate her. Frecklewish caused her own death. If Frecklewish hadn't jumped at Mapleshade and attacked her a second time, she wouldn't have died. All she had to do was side step and dodge Frecklewish, which caused her to collide into a snake and get bit in the first place. Instead of doing the logical thing and going back to the safety of her patrol, she chose to attack Mapleshade after wishing death on her. And also after admitting that she witness Mapleshade and the kits drowning and literally walked away from the situation. Her actions were her own fault. And leaving children to die is not a mistake imo. Yes, her death is like the kits. She didn't try to help so neither did mapleshade. and Idk what else to call her actions, I thought what she did was wrong obviously. (Also I thought the riverclan patrol was there when she arrived? Was it not?) I'm not saying she was right, I'm just not sure if it's fair to fully judge her yet and condemn her to the DF.
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Post by rabbit on Nov 27, 2021 4:38:17 GMT -5
I'm pretty neutral on it. Makes me wish we'd get more judgment scenes though? Like, does how soft your jury is determine where you go? Leafpool would have gone to the DF if Moth Flight had her way. How was Ashfur spared? Did Mudclaw only slip by because Tallstar was at his and felt bad? Did Frecklewish get stuck with the cats who made the codes of no apprentices before a certain age? the cats who made the rule about helping all kits? man this why I dislike the whole trial thing. I like to think that the Dark Forest cats had too much resentment, or other negative feeling, in their heart and that’s why they are there. And that fits with Frecklewish. Not some BS band of hypocrites from StarClan banning them from their exclusive club. I would never forgive Moth Flight if Leafpool became a dark forest cat.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 27, 2021 4:55:24 GMT -5
Frecklewish caused her own death. If Frecklewish hadn't jumped at Mapleshade and attacked her a second time, she wouldn't have died. All she had to do was side step and dodge Frecklewish, which caused her to collide into a snake and get bit in the first place. Instead of doing the logical thing and going back to the safety of her patrol, she chose to attack Mapleshade after wishing death on her. And also after admitting that she witness Mapleshade and the kits drowning and literally walked away from the situation. Her actions were her own fault. And leaving children to die is not a mistake imo. Yes, her death is like the kits. She didn't try to help so neither did mapleshade. and Idk what else to call her actions, I thought what she did was wrong obviously. (Also I thought the riverclan patrol was there when she arrived? Was it not?) I'm not saying she was right, I'm just not sure if it's fair to fully judge her yet and condemn her to the DF. The hunting patrol arrived not long after Frecklewish got bit, and Mapleshade quickly left before that, so even if Mapleshade had helped her, in that very unlikely possibility, she wouldn't have time. As for the events at the river, this is what happened: Mapleshade and her kits were exiled into a storm, and Frecklewish stalked after them to make sure they left ThunderClan territory. Considering Oakstar threatened and gave permission to his cats to attack her if she stayed in TC territory, it's unsurprising that Mapleshade wouldn't have risked staying. She tries to cross the river, which is the fastest way with her kits, despite the flooding, they were able to get half way, but then a sudden wave came and swept them all away. Frecklewish is later revealed to have been watching the entire time, while also admitting to being aware of the patrol that was nearby. Despite that, she walked away from the scene, leaving Mapleshade and the kits to drown, and then to be eventually discovered by the patrol by chance. The patrol saved Mapleshade in time, Mapleshade then had to force herself to talk while still choking on water, informing the patrol that the kits were in the river, to which the patrol then quickly go back into the river for. However, by the time they return, it's too late. If the patrol had been aware of the kits prior, those kits could have most likely been saved. Frecklewish wouldn't even have to get her paws wet even, she could have alerted the patrol, call for help, anything. But in the end, she walked away, and left them to their fate. Those kits were in active stress and danger, and she turned away from them. In similar situations, Fireheart dove into water to save kits, and he's not even a RiverClan cat. Jayfeather, a blind medicine cat, at least attempted to save Flametail, and there's even Bristlefrost who saves Rootpaw from drowning. Making it seem that it's just one small thing would be minimizing her actions, especially when prior she gave plenty of reason to act out of maliciousness toward innocent kits. I think leaving kits to die, children, is plenty of reason for someone to go to the Dark Forest tbh.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 27, 2021 5:08:19 GMT -5
Yes, her death is like the kits. She didn't try to help so neither did mapleshade. and Idk what else to call her actions, I thought what she did was wrong obviously. (Also I thought the riverclan patrol was there when she arrived? Was it not?) I'm not saying she was right, I'm just not sure if it's fair to fully judge her yet and condemn her to the DF. The hunting patrol arrived not long after Frecklewish got bit, and Mapleshade quickly left before that, so even if Mapleshade had helped her, in that very unlikely possibility, she wouldn't have time. As for the events at the river, this is what happened: Mapleshade and her kits were exiled into a storm, and Frecklewish stalked after them to make sure they left ThunderClan territory. Considering Oakstar threatened and gave permission to his cats to attack her if she stayed in TC territory, it's unsurprising that Mapleshade wouldn't have risked staying. She tries to cross the river, which is the fastest way with her kits, despite the flooding, they were able to get half way, but then a sudden wave came and swept them all away. Frecklewish is later revealed to have been watching the entire time, while also admitting to be aware of the patrol that was nearby. Despite that, she walked away from the scene, leaving Mapleshade and the kits to drown, and then to be eventually discovered by the patrol by chance. The patrol saved Mapleshade in time, Mapleshade then had to force herself to talk while still choking on water, informing the patrol that the kits were in the river, to which the patrol then quickly go back into the river for. However, by the time they return, it's too late. If the patrol had been aware of the kits prior, those kits could have most likely been saved. Frecklewish wouldn't even have to get her paws wet even, she could have alerted the patrol, call for help, anything. But in the end, she walked away, and left them to their fate. Those kits were in active stress and danger, and she turned away from them. In similar situations, Fireheart dove into water to save kits, and he's not even a RiverClan cat. Jayfeather, a blind medicine cat, at least attempted to save Flametail, and there's even Bristlefrost who saves Rootpaw from drowning. Making it seem that it's just one small thing would be minimizing her actions, especially when prior she gave plenty of reason to act out of maliciousness toward innocent kits. I think leaving kits to die, children, is plenty of reason for someone to go to the Dark Forest tbh. Thanks for the summery, I'm still pretty neutral on the situation but I wish mapleshade hadn't killed her as I really hoped she'd be able to find a way to make up for her mistake of leaving the kits, she seemed to regret what she'd done when mapleshade attacked her. IDK what she could've done but the whole situation is pretty sad. I always head-canoned that getting frecklewish killed was a way of getting back at Oakstar. She broke the code, and a big one at that. Yet so has so many other cats who never got the DF. (Mudclaw, Onestar, Ashfur,) It makes me wonder why starclan decided to send her there, then again there is no reason with starclan. I don't think she should get into starclan, but nor should she deserve the DF. Letting her be a ghost (exiled from starclan, not by choice) and ponder on what she's done would be a more fitting punishment.
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Post by 𝐛𝐥𝟒𝐜𝐤𝐬𝐨𝐥 on Nov 27, 2021 5:12:21 GMT -5
She did not deserve the Dark Forest and no one will ever change my mind.
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Post by cygna on Nov 27, 2021 6:42:00 GMT -5
Freckewish did not deserve that. She didn't kill anyone nor was she the reason 3 innocent kits were killed.
Oakstar and Ravenwing deserve more blame than her.
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Post by Goldy from Dappleclan on Nov 27, 2021 7:20:22 GMT -5
Could anyone send me the source for this information?
The official warriors website is so slow, buggy, laggy and extremely confusing to navigate lol
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 27, 2021 13:35:44 GMT -5
fireheart and jayfeather jumping into the river/lake is routinely slammed as a stupid (if courageous) thing to do so idk why everyone is comparing them to Frecklewish not trying to drown herself in a flooding river
also, it was a flooding river, they are loud. Frecklewish calling for help to the RiverClan patrol literally had -20 chance of being heard over the roar.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Nov 27, 2021 14:07:42 GMT -5
perhaps it was less she did nothing, which already is bad, but more so her feelings of the matter
she didnt mean for them to die but how do we know she didnt feel satisfied over them in the river?
too many what ifs
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 27, 2021 14:25:47 GMT -5
perhaps it was less she did nothing, which already is bad, but more so her feelings of the matter she didnt mean for them to die but how do we know she didnt feel satisfied over them in the river? too many what ifs pretty sure if feeling satisfaction from someone else’s suffering that you have resentment for was a ticket to the Dark Forest. There would be many more that would be tossed in The Dark Forest . The inconsistencies regarding the right of passage into Starclan is so flippant and all over the place it’s difficult to take seriously. And I’m probably in the minority, but personally I don’t think cats should be judged for merely having malicious thoughts once an awhile, or for not intervening in a rescue, while it’s maybe a bit heartless, I don’t think it’s morally wrong . Though overall I’m pretty neutral , and don’t really care if Frecklewish is in the Dark Forest or not, unless of course they decide to have her make an appearance in ASC then my opinion might change. But if they decide to give us another Arc with the overarching plot and story revolving around the Dark Forest again, honestly I wouldn’t know what to think about that.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 27, 2021 14:39:48 GMT -5
So Mudclaw gets passage into Starclan after leading a revolt against his own newly appointed leader and Clan? Yet Frecklewish gets iced and sent to the Dark Forest for inactivity, and Wishing harm to befall someone else in her Grieving state. Sounds legitimate since TBC has brought up this concept of needing to let go once dead, we have no clue if frecklewish let go of her feelings or not. if she didnt let go and didnt hide them like ashfur did, she would have gone to the dark forest. mudclaw is showing letting go and accepting and apologizing at the end of his manga, so thats the benefit of the doubt there.
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Post by Katanaheart on Nov 27, 2021 14:47:58 GMT -5
I’m still more upset about Stumpytail than her due to child attachments tbh. He also remained the entire time in ShadowClan after his mentor was overthrown and later is part of the joint battle with WindClan against TC for harboring Brokentail. But nope, DF for a cat who never even followed Brokenstar into exile with his cronies.
As for the novella character, she failed to intervene in the lives of children who she let drown. (Considering she called them creatures.) This is mainly speculation, but she likely considered their deaths as some form of justice for her brother. Be it from StarClan or otherwise. Her hatred that led to her accidental death likely didn’t help things either.
If she had lived past her brush with the adders her feelings may have changed over time and she would have been allowed into StarClan. Likely RC Graywing was a judge at her trial before Frecklewish died and I doubt she would have allowed another cat to foolishly stand aside as other children drowned, just as she had done while alive. Graywing also held no malice over the WindClan kits she let drown, merely prioritizing the life of Brindleclaw. Meanwhile, Frecklewish would have likely been more than pleased if Mapleshade had drowned alongside her “half-clan creatures.” Or at least have seen it as some poetic justice, all speculation on my part, as we haven’t really seen her exact in the moment. I wonder if by the time of the encounter at Snakerocks, Frecklewish had centered her ire entirely on Mapleshade, having either forgiven the kits for existing and being a part of her brother’s betrayal in her eyes or having realized that the kits were never to blame in the first place?
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 27, 2021 15:18:16 GMT -5
So Mudclaw gets passage into Starclan after leading a revolt against his own newly appointed leader and Clan? Yet Frecklewish gets iced and sent to the Dark Forest for inactivity, and Wishing harm to befall someone else in her Grieving state. Sounds legitimate since TBC has brought up this concept of needing to let go once dead, we have no clue if frecklewish let go of her feelings or not. if she didnt let go and didnt hide them like ashfur did, she would have gone to the dark forest. mudclaw is showing letting go and accepting and apologizing at the end of his manga, so thats the benefit of the doubt there. Ashfur and Frecklewish are kinda in a comparable scenario, obviously different misdeeds, but Ashfur being allowed into Starclan based off the reasoning he may have repented if allowed to live a longer life should apply to Frecklewish , since like Ashfur she immediately died after committing her wrongdoings, so why wasn’t she granted the benefit of the doubt that she may have felt remorse and penitence if she lived longer, especially considering that Ashfur’s crimes in my opinion are much worse, since he had the intent of premeditated murder, as Frecklewish’s involvement in Her crimes are inactivity to intervene, which even if she had alerted the patrol there still is no guarantee that the kits would of been saved. While she definitely had malicious intent in the moment, there’s no way of knowing if she would of regretted her actions , or inaction later down the road . And applying my own interpretation of the afterlife/heaven/hell etc, I find the explanation of that Ashfur was able to hide his evil thoughts pretty flimsy . Anyway with how they change how Starclan operates seemingly every arc nowadays, I‘m hardly compelled to take anything new they add as Canon any more.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 27, 2021 15:43:42 GMT -5
since TBC has brought up this concept of needing to let go once dead, we have no clue if frecklewish let go of her feelings or not. if she didnt let go and didnt hide them like ashfur did, she would have gone to the dark forest. mudclaw is showing letting go and accepting and apologizing at the end of his manga, so thats the benefit of the doubt there. Ashfur and Frecklewish are kinda in a comparable scenario, obviously different misdeeds, but Ashfur being allowed into Starclan based off the reasoning he may have repented if allowed to live a longer life should apply to Frecklewish , since like Ashfur she immediately died after committing her wrongdoings, so why wasn’t she granted the benefit of the doubt that she may have felt remorse and penitence if she lived longer, especially considering that Ashfur’s crimes in my opinion are much worse, since he had the intent of premeditated murder, as Frecklewish’s involvement in Her crimes in inactivity to intervene, which even if she had alerted the patrol there still is no guarantee that the kits would of been saved. While she definitely had malicious intent in the moment, there’s no way of knowing if she would of regretted her actions , or inaction later down the road . And applying my own interpretation of the afterlife/heaven/hell etc, I find the explanation of that Ashfur was able to hide his evil thoughts pretty flimsy . Anyway with how they change how Starclan operates seemingly every arc nowadays, I ‘m hardly compelled to take anything new they add as Canon any more. i dont think frecklewish would have forgiven anyone. if she lived, she would have been blind, a constant reminder of what happened to her. she was pretty angry after the reveal in the novella, so idk. but i agree, starclan's lore and how it opperates is so inconsistent and stupid...idk why they keep making stuff up out of nowhere just for a specific plot, and then retconning or changing it later, etc.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 27, 2021 15:48:15 GMT -5
i find the idea of "lingering resentment sends you to the dark forest" to be....well at best a pretty inane retcon (even within the whole "TBC borrows from horror" scope there are a lot of pretty nasty implications presented in warriors)
i could take or leave frecklewish as part of the dark forest but in the end i wish it'd remained for like, the worst of the worst
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 27, 2021 16:28:58 GMT -5
Ashfur and Frecklewish are kinda in a comparable scenario, obviously different misdeeds, but Ashfur being allowed into Starclan based off the reasoning he may have repented if allowed to live a longer life should apply to Frecklewish , since like Ashfur she immediately died after committing her wrongdoings, so why wasn’t she granted the benefit of the doubt that she may have felt remorse and penitence if she lived longer, especially considering that Ashfur’s crimes in my opinion are much worse, since he had the intent of premeditated murder, as Frecklewish’s involvement in Her crimes being inactivity to intervene, which even if she had alerted the patrol there still is no guarantee that the kits would of been saved. While she definitely had malicious intent in the moment, there’s no way of knowing if she would of regretted her actions , or inaction later down the road . And applying my own interpretation of the afterlife/heaven/hell etc, I find the explanation of that Ashfur was able to hide his evil thoughts pretty flimsy . Anyway with how they change how Starclan operates seemingly every arc nowadays, I’m hardly compelled to take anything new they add as Canon any more. i dont think frecklewish would have forgiven anyone. if she lived, she would have been blind, a constant reminder of what happened to her. she was pretty angry after the reveal in the novella, so idk. but i agree, starclan's lore and how it opperates is so inconsistent and stupid...idk why they keep making stuff up out of nowhere just for a specific plot, and then retconning or changing it later, etc. unfortunately we’ll never know. Maybe she would of held onto her resentment for Mapleshade and allowed her grief to fester and warp her thinking further down the road like Ashfur, or maybe she’d eventually come to accept the lose of her brother, let go, feel remorse and moved on and lived a perfectly honourable life. I’m personally taught that people aren’t judged by their thoughts, but their actions. So them just throwing her into allegorical hell based entirely upon Malicious thoughts rubs me the wrong way. Everybody has Dark, malicious evil thoughts lurking in the back of there minds, if we used that logic then everyone would go to The Dark Forest, or an exponentially greater quantity. But it’s all speculative territory at this point, they probably have plans for using Frecklewish in ASC for some reason, which is what I believe the changes were made for.
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Post by Rainfire on Nov 27, 2021 16:52:28 GMT -5
I'm ambivalent about it. I just wish we could get Freckle's own POV on everything happened, but I doubt we ever will.
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