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Post by *Ottersplash* on Nov 29, 2021 21:48:33 GMT -5
this thread is making me ask deep questions. would a warrior want to have a noble death, trying to save innocent kits? or would they want to live in guilt knowing that they stood by doing nothing and let kits die in front of them? does this kind of thing even apply for the situation here? like yeah, thunderclan cats cant swim, but ALL cats have instincts to swim, riverclan or not. it's literally a real life biological instinct felines possess! Depends on how honorable the cat is. Like Firestar, Graystripe, Squirrelflight, Leafpool, and many others would probably die trying to save the kits because that's just the kind of cats they are. Also, cats like Daisy? I don't think she'd think twice before trying to save a kit, even if her swimming wasn't strong. Since Warriors is based on human morality for the most part, I'd say what Frecklewish did is considered inherently dishonorable I still personally think Frecklewish was not upset the kits died. Mapleshade points that out, and Frecklewish completely changes the subject to how she wants Mapleshade dead. That's probably why she got sent to the DF. I'm not sure if it's DF worthy, but I don't think Frecklewish is a good cat. I think she's just as bad as her father.
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Post by silverpaw7 on Nov 29, 2021 23:56:56 GMT -5
After reading this I don't think frecklewish is innocent, but just that worse cats have gone to StarClan
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Dec 1, 2021 13:27:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure about where Frecklewish belongs anymore but if she is in the Dark Forest then her father Oakstar should join her there as he was the one who exiled and thus endangered the AppleMaple kits.
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Dec 1, 2021 14:05:45 GMT -5
Ravenwing should have went as well to the Dark Forest.
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Post by Ravenwing on Dec 1, 2021 14:57:42 GMT -5
Ravenwing should have went as well to the Dark Forest. Why's that? He was a young medicine cat who was doing his best after his mentor died really early. He only did his job in telling the truth, what happens after had nothing to do with him. He didn't exile the kits. You could argue that he should of tried to stop Oakstar which is fair but at the same time, he was young and was doing his best. And because her kits died, he was murdered and then his corpse was left out for the birds- I think he got more than he deserved already.
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#04F9B3
StarClan leader
Name Colour
Featherstar
She could now see that destiny alone could not save RiverClan. - Frostpaw, Wind
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Post by Featherstar on Dec 1, 2021 15:09:29 GMT -5
Ravenwing should have went as well to the Dark Forest. Why's that? He was a young medicine cat who was doing his best after his mentor died really early. He only did his job in telling the truth, what happens after had nothing to do with him. He didn't exile the kits. You could argue that he should of tried to stop Oakstar which is fair but at the same time, he was young and was doing his best. And because her kits died, he was murdered and then his corpse was left out for the birds- I think he got more than he deserved already. He indirectly caused the deaths of Mapleshade, Frecklewish, Appledusk, Mapleshade's kits and his own death. He was the one who told Oakstar the truth about Mapleshade's kits linage. Then Oakstar banished Mapleshade and her kits because of that. Then Mapleshade killed Ravenwing and Appledusk and indirectly caused Frecklewish's death. If Ravenwing hadn't told Oakstar the truth about Mapleshade's kits, none of this would have happened. Ravenwing could've kept the truth to his self. Maybe tell it at a later time when Oakstar was upset over his son's recent death and mad at Appledusk. Maybe Oakstar would have understood then and told some warriors to watch Mapleshade to make sure she was loyal once more.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Dec 1, 2021 15:46:08 GMT -5
Why's that? He was a young medicine cat who was doing his best after his mentor died really early. He only did his job in telling the truth, what happens after had nothing to do with him. He didn't exile the kits. You could argue that he should of tried to stop Oakstar which is fair but at the same time, he was young and was doing his best. And because her kits died, he was murdered and then his corpse was left out for the birds- I think he got more than he deserved already. He indirectly caused the deaths of Mapleshade, Frecklewish, Appledusk, Mapleshade's kits and his own death. He was the one who told Oakstar the truth about Mapleshade's kits linage. Then Oakstar banished Mapleshade and her kits because of that. Then Mapleshade killed Ravenwing and Appledusk and indirectly caused Frecklewish's death. If Ravenwing hadn't told Oakstar the truth about Mapleshade's kits, none of this would have happened. Ravenwing could've kept the truth to his self. Maybe tell it at a later time when Oakstar was upset over his son's recent death and mad at Appledusk. Maybe Oakstar would have understood then and told some warriors to watch Mapleshade to make sure she was loyal once more. im neutral on ravenwing's involvement tbh...but then again, i do believe in the domino effect. ravenwing indirectly endangered the kits due to speaking up. even if he thought starclan told him to do it, he should have known starclan wouldnt want to kill or endanger kits. he should have had courage to go against it and put the kits lives first. thats what medicine cats do, and especially since kits being protected at all costs is in the code itself.
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Post by cable on Dec 1, 2021 15:55:14 GMT -5
even if he literally had to tell the truth why tf didnt he speak up for the kits? medicine cats hold a lot of political power and also have the moral and code-written obligation to protect the lives of kits. he literally just stares at her and the doesnt do anything to help the kits. he could have just spoken up and said starclan wouldnt want kits endangered or something. he didnt even have to protect mapleshade. just the kits. regardless of whether it would have worked or not, he didnt even try. even if he was young he was still a grown adult. trying his best/being stressed doesnt excuse doing nothing to protect innocent kits.
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Post by Aqua on Dec 1, 2021 16:46:03 GMT -5
Why's that? He was a young medicine cat who was doing his best after his mentor died really early. He only did his job in telling the truth, what happens after had nothing to do with him. He didn't exile the kits. You could argue that he should of tried to stop Oakstar which is fair but at the same time, he was young and was doing his best. And because her kits died, he was murdered and then his corpse was left out for the birds- I think he got more than he deserved already. He indirectly caused the deaths of Mapleshade, Frecklewish, Appledusk, Mapleshade's kits and his own death. He was the one who told Oakstar the truth about Mapleshade's kits linage. Then Oakstar banished Mapleshade and her kits because of that. Then Mapleshade killed Ravenwing and Appledusk and indirectly caused Frecklewish's death. If Ravenwing hadn't told Oakstar the truth about Mapleshade's kits, none of this would have happened. Ravenwing could've kept the truth to his self. Maybe tell it at a later time when Oakstar was upset over his son's recent death and mad at Appledusk. Maybe Oakstar would have understood then and told some warriors to watch Mapleshade to make sure she was loyal once more. Or... none if this would have happened if Mapleshade hadn't broken the code, sneaking off with Appledusk and lying to her clan in the first place. I know Ravenwing was wrong to tell the truth, but tbf, he received an omen from Starclan and they normally have to tell leaders the signs they receive. Honestly, his only fault was that Ravenwing should have spoken up for the kits. He did the right thing to tell the truth. Nobody wanted the kits exiled except Oakstar and Frecklewish. Ravenwing was just doing his job. He puts his clan first before Mapleshade, who made her own bed of mistakes.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Dec 1, 2021 17:40:19 GMT -5
He indirectly caused the deaths of Mapleshade, Frecklewish, Appledusk, Mapleshade's kits and his own death. He was the one who told Oakstar the truth about Mapleshade's kits linage. Then Oakstar banished Mapleshade and her kits because of that. Then Mapleshade killed Ravenwing and Appledusk and indirectly caused Frecklewish's death. If Ravenwing hadn't told Oakstar the truth about Mapleshade's kits, none of this would have happened. Ravenwing could've kept the truth to his self. Maybe tell it at a later time when Oakstar was upset over his son's recent death and mad at Appledusk. Maybe Oakstar would have understood then and told some warriors to watch Mapleshade to make sure she was loyal once more. Or... none if this would have happened if Mapleshade hadn't broken the code, sneaking off with Appledusk and lying to her clan in the first place. I know Ravenwing was wrong to tell the truth, but tbf, he received an omen from Starclan and they normally have to tell leaders the signs they receive. Honestly, his only fault was that Ravenwing should have spoken up for the kits. He did the right thing to tell the truth. Nobody wanted the kits exiled except Oakstar and Frecklewish. Ravenwing was just doing his job. He puts his clan first before Mapleshade, who made her own bed of mistakes. A medicine cat's job is the keep cats safe and healthy, no matter what clan they belong in. Also, the whole half-clan relationship thing is ridiculous. Making kits suffer because they're half-clan is unacceptable. Oakstar even realizes that later in life
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Post by Ravenwing on Dec 1, 2021 19:33:58 GMT -5
Or... none if this would have happened if Mapleshade hadn't broken the code, sneaking off with Appledusk and lying to her clan in the first place. I know Ravenwing was wrong to tell the truth, but tbf, he received an omen from Starclan and they normally have to tell leaders the signs they receive. Honestly, his only fault was that Ravenwing should have spoken up for the kits. He did the right thing to tell the truth. Nobody wanted the kits exiled except Oakstar and Frecklewish. Ravenwing was just doing his job. He puts his clan first before Mapleshade, who made her own bed of mistakes. A medicine cat's job is the keep cats safe and healthy, no matter what clan they belong in. Also, the whole half-clan relationship thing is ridiculous. Making kits suffer because they're half-clan is unacceptable. Oakstar even realizes that later in life Even if the rule is dumb, she shouldn't have done that and if she did, she should of immediately come clean about it and apologize. That's something Mapleshade never does, she never apologizes for anything. No matter what happens, she never takes responsibility for her actions. Appledusk isn't great but at least he apologized to his clan for doing what he did. He realized he screwed up. Mapleshade wouldn't take any responsibility, even if maybe if she would, they wouldn't have exiled her. (Though, the fact that she was exiled is still on Oakstar) She never tried once.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Dec 1, 2021 19:50:45 GMT -5
A medicine cat's job is the keep cats safe and healthy, no matter what clan they belong in. Also, the whole half-clan relationship thing is ridiculous. Making kits suffer because they're half-clan is unacceptable. Oakstar even realizes that later in life Even if the rule is dumb, she shouldn't have done that and if she did, she should of immediately come clean about it and apologize. That's something Mapleshade never does, she never apologizes for anything. No matter what happens, she never takes responsibility for her actions. Appledusk isn't great but at least he apologized to his clan for doing what he did. He realized he screwed up. Mapleshade wouldn't take any responsibility, even if maybe if she would, they wouldn't have exiled her. (Though, the fact that she was exiled is still on Oakstar) She never tried once. They would have exiled her no matter what. It wasn't about the half-clan relationship, it was about the fact it was APPLEDUSK - who Oakstar and Frecklewish blamed for their son/brother's death and wanted revenge against. Ravenwing knew what he was doing and is still not innocent. Does he deserve the DF? No, but that doesn't make him some angel.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Dec 1, 2021 20:58:37 GMT -5
I’m kinda confused why people are arguing that Ravenwing should of stood up for the kit’s, when he’s received an omen that clearly signifies that the Kits will cause nothing but trouble and must be taken out of Thunderclan, at least according to his interpretation, so seems that the kits were gonna be exiled from Thunderclan whether Mapleshade went or not. Which if they would of exiled the kit’s without their mother, that would of been infinitely more cruel, and child abandonment and neglect to say the least. imo people are being unfairly judgmental towards Ravenwing and Oakstar, it’s unfortunate that the kits drowned for sure, but don’t see where people go putting blame and responsibility on their shoulders for Mapleshade deciding to make irrational decisions in her crazed state by crossing a flooded river, heck even the kits protested crossing at first, it’s basically blaming them for punishing her for breaking the rules. It’d be like your Boss catching you stealing at work, then firing you, followed by you blaming them for being evicted cause you have no job to pay the rent/mortgage. The manager isn’t responsible cause you’ve suffered a domino effect of consequences because of your fallacy. Mapleshade had other options she could of chosen, she could of left clan territory, went to twolegplace , one of the surrounding farms/barns and stayed there for awhile until her kits are old enough to travel elsewhere, or that Oakstar’s anger has had time to simmer down and potentially be reasoned with, or Riverclan, instead of the most risky choice.
Unless people want to argue that Ravenwing misunderstood the meaning of his dream/omen, which will probably never be confirmed whether he did or didn’t in canon.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 2, 2021 1:42:38 GMT -5
Omen or not, nothing was stopping Ravenwing from at least speaking up about the safety of the kits, nothing was stopping him from stepping in and suggesting for a mother and her children to either be escorted to RiverClan, or allowed to stay and wait out a storm first.
Ravenwing KNEW going to Oakstar with his accusations would lead to the kits suffering, period. I'm not saying he had to keep Mapleshade's secret, but as a medicine cat, he has a duty to look out for the health and well-being of cats, especially kits, no matter their heritage.
Mapleshade breaking the code doesn't mean she and her kits should suddenly not be allowed leniency and should be treated like garbage.
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Post by Ravenwing on Dec 2, 2021 8:35:41 GMT -5
Omen or not, nothing was stopping Ravenwing from at least speaking up about the safety of the kits, nothing was stopping him from stepping in and suggesting for a mother and her children to either be escorted to RiverClan, or allowed to stay and wait out a storm first. Ravenwing KNEW going to Oakstar with his accusations would lead to the kits suffering, period. I'm not saying he had to keep Mapleshade's secret, but as a medicine cat, he has a duty to look out for the health and well-being of cats, especially kits, no matter their heritage. Mapleshade breaking the code doesn't mean she and her kits should suddenly not be allowed leniency and should be treated like garbage. You know, that's fair. Personally, I feel like we can't expect too much out of him but I know that's not how everyone will see it. Though, while he didn't do that, he definitely doesn't deserve the dark forest. He already suffered a terrible death and had his corpse eaten.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Dec 2, 2021 15:20:27 GMT -5
Omen or not, nothing was stopping Ravenwing from at least speaking up about the safety of the kits, nothing was stopping him from stepping in and suggesting for a mother and her children to either be escorted to RiverClan, or allowed to stay and wait out a storm first. Ravenwing KNEW going to Oakstar with his accusations would lead to the kits suffering, period. I'm not saying he had to keep Mapleshade's secret, but as a medicine cat, he has a duty to look out for the health and well-being of cats, especially kits, no matter their heritage. Mapleshade breaking the code doesn't mean she and her kits should suddenly not be allowed leniency and should be treated like garbage. I Agree the kits deserved leniency 100%. But Mapleshade 100% is undeserving of any leniency in my opinion, and whether or not Oakstar or Ravenwing spoke up and decided to offer sanctuary or leniency , even if temporary, there’s absolutely no way I’d see Oakstar extending the same courtesy to Mapleshade, nor should be it expected or consider unjust for him not too. She was caught red-handed fraternizing with the enemy, and his sons murderer, so he’s justifiably peeved. And Keeping the Kit’s in camp without their mother wouldn’t have probably been a very wise move, cause in all practicality, can we expect a Queen in Thunderclan to volunteer to nurse them and care for them?, while they either contemplate eventually taking them to Riverclan, or given Mapleshade the opportunity to come retrieve them after they’ve calmed down. There’s pretty distinct possibility that the kits would of been mistreated or neglected without their mother there. I Fully understand why people would appreciate the kits being given shelter, and not having to suffer. But given the circumstances it’s highly impractical to expect or condemn either Oakstar or Ravenwing for not doing so, at least in my eyes. it’s a very tragic and unfortunate situation all around, that sadly often befalls people when they don’t fully think their actions through, before proceeding with them.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 2, 2021 15:28:15 GMT -5
Omen or not, nothing was stopping Ravenwing from at least speaking up about the safety of the kits, nothing was stopping him from stepping in and suggesting for a mother and her children to either be escorted to RiverClan, or allowed to stay and wait out a storm first. Ravenwing KNEW going to Oakstar with his accusations would lead to the kits suffering, period. I'm not saying he had to keep Mapleshade's secret, but as a medicine cat, he has a duty to look out for the health and well-being of cats, especially kits, no matter their heritage. Mapleshade breaking the code doesn't mean she and her kits should suddenly not be allowed leniency and should be treated like garbage. I Agree the kits deserved leniency 100%. But Mapleshade 100% is undeserving of any leniency in my opinion, and whether or not Oakstar or Ravenwing spoke up and decided to offer sanctuary or leniency , even if temporary, there’s absolutely no way I’d see Oakstar extending the same courtesy to Mapleshade, nor should be it expected or consider unjust for him not too. She was caught red-handed fraternizing with the enemy, and his sons murderer, so he’s justifiably peeved. And Keeping the Kit’s in camp without their mother wouldn’t have probably been a very wise move, cause in all practicality, can we expect a Queen in Thunderclan to volunteer to nurse them and care for them?, while they either contemplate eventually taking them to Riverclan, or given Mapleshade the opportunity to come retrieve them after they’ve calmed down. There’s pretty distinct possibility that the kits would of been mistreated or neglected without their mother there. I Fully understand why people would appreciate the kits being given shelter, and not having to suffer. But given the circumstances it’s highly impractical to expect or condemn either Oakstar or Ravenwing for not doing so, at least in my eyes. it’s a very tragic and unfortunate situation all around, that sadly often befalls people when they don’t fully think their actions through, before proceeding with them. Bluestar literally kept a blind genocidal ex-clan leader as a prisoner in her camp. While Tigertwo does the same later, with a genocidal possessed clan leader that literally tried to ice his son. If Oakstar honestly can't stand keeping a traitorous mother in his camp a bit longer, keeping an eye on her while they wait out the storm, or instead having them escorted out of the territory safely, then he's just a cowardly scumbag who doesn't deserve his ranking, same for Ravenwing. He can be angry, no one is saying otherwise, but he took his anger out on innocent kits, and his judgement toward them was out of pure spite and bias. It doesn't matter if their mother broke the code, because regardless, he would have treated them horribly simply for who their biological father was. Mapleshade deserved leniency period, for being a queen with innocent kits.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Dec 2, 2021 21:17:24 GMT -5
I Agree the kits deserved leniency 100%. But Mapleshade 100% is undeserving of any leniency in my opinion, and whether or not Oakstar or Ravenwing spoke up and decided to offer sanctuary or leniency , even if temporary, there’s absolutely no way I’d see Oakstar extending the same courtesy to Mapleshade, nor should be it expected or consider unjust for him not too. She was caught red-handed fraternizing with the enemy, and his sons murderer, so he’s justifiably peeved. And Keeping the Kit’s in camp without their mother wouldn’t have probably been a very wise move, cause in all practicality, can we expect a Queen in Thunderclan to volunteer to nurse them and care for them?, while they either contemplate eventually taking them to Riverclan, or given Mapleshade the opportunity to come retrieve them after they’ve calmed down. There’s pretty distinct possibility that the kits would of been mistreated or neglected without their mother there. I Fully understand why people would appreciate the kits being given shelter, and not having to suffer. But given the circumstances it’s highly impractical to expect or condemn either Oakstar or Ravenwing for not doing so, at least in my eyes. it’s a very tragic and unfortunate situation all around, that sadly often befalls people when they don’t fully think their actions through, before proceeding with them. Bluestar literally kept a blind genocidal ex-clan leader as a prisoner in her camp. While Tigertwo does the same later, with a genocidal possessed clan leader that literally tried to ice his son. If Oakstar honestly can't stand keeping a traitorous mother in his camp a bit longer, keeping an eye on her while they wait out the storm, or instead having them escorted out of the territory safely, then he's just a cowardly scumbag who doesn't deserve his ranking, same for Ravenwing. He can be angry, no one is saying otherwise, but he took his anger out on innocent kits, and his judgement toward them was out of pure spite and bias. It doesn't matter if their mother broke the code, because regardless, he would have treated them horribly simply for who their biological father was. Mapleshade deserved leniency period, for being a queen with innocent kits. That’s a fair point, and I partly agree, not fully since apparently Bluestar was mentally ill, and Tigertwo is just a glorified Neanderthal, so not exactly sure if I’d call those comparable scenarios. But that aside. I’m now dying with genuine curiosity, which we all know curiosity killed the cat. Being that the main focal points of Mapleshade’s backstory and motivation for revenge are revealed at the end of Crookedstar’s promise. How would you’ve wanted the narrative to spin her story, without retconning or making major changes to what’s already been confirmed, and doesn’t make anyone else to be in the spotlight for fault, for her kits drowning but herself?. The only scenario I could think of that would make sense and be cohesive, would be Oakstar, Ravenwing and the rest of Thunderclan unanimously deciding to cast out Mapleshade, while acknowledging the kits are innocent, and being compassionate and merciful and declaring that they’d keep the kits and raise them like any other TC kit, followed by Mapleshade furiously refusing to allow her kits to remain in TC , and then her basically forcing them to leave with her. Note: hmmmm now that I mention it, that probably would of made a much better backstory, and been a far more cohesive explanation to why she went to the dark forest and was considered so evil in the first place. And we wouldn’t be arguing over this nonsensical garbage on the fandom. Dang it Vicky, why must you do this us?
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Post by MadameDelune on Dec 3, 2021 2:11:50 GMT -5
Tbh I feel like Ravewing faked the omen
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 3, 2021 3:45:40 GMT -5
Bluestar literally kept a blind genocidal ex-clan leader as a prisoner in her camp. While Tigertwo does the same later, with a genocidal possessed clan leader that literally tried to ice his son. If Oakstar honestly can't stand keeping a traitorous mother in his camp a bit longer, keeping an eye on her while they wait out the storm, or instead having them escorted out of the territory safely, then he's just a cowardly scumbag who doesn't deserve his ranking, same for Ravenwing. He can be angry, no one is saying otherwise, but he took his anger out on innocent kits, and his judgement toward them was out of pure spite and bias. It doesn't matter if their mother broke the code, because regardless, he would have treated them horribly simply for who their biological father was. Mapleshade deserved leniency period, for being a queen with innocent kits. That’s a fair point, and I partly agree, not fully since apparently Bluestar was mentally ill, and Tigertwo is just a glorified Neanderthal, so not exactly sure if I’d call those comparable scenarios. But that aside. I’m now dying with genuine curiosity, which we all know curiosity killed the cat. Being that the main focal points of Mapleshade’s backstory and motivation for revenge are revealed at the end of Crookedstar’s promise. How would you’ve wanted the narrative to spin her story, without retconning or making major changes to what’s already been confirmed, and doesn’t make anyone else to be in the spotlight for fault, for her kits drowning but herself?. The only scenario I could think of that would make sense and be cohesive, would be Oakstar, Ravenwing and the rest of Thunderclan unanimously deciding to cast out Mapleshade, while acknowledging the kits are innocent, and being compassionate and merciful and declaring that they’d keep the kits and raise them like any other TC kit, followed by Mapleshade furiously refusing to allow her kits to remain in TC , and then her basically forcing them to leave with her. Note: hmmmm now that I mention it, that probably would of made a much better backstory, and been a far more cohesive explanation to why she went to the dark forest and was considered so evil in the first place. And we wouldn’t be arguing over this nonsensical garbage on the fandom. Dang it Vicky, why must you do this us? At the same time, it's a heinous act to forcefully separate a mother and her children. She wouldn't be forcing her kits to come with her, she'd be stopping the clan from forcefully tearing her family apart. It would be a similar situation to when Willowbreeze and Graypool were torn away from their mother, but also too young to understand the situation, just 10x worse. I also doubt that the kits would be treated fairly at all, they'd probably get the Raggedstar treatment, over their heritage, even more so because of who their father is period. Oakstar and Frecklewish were also already planning to use them as weapons against Appledusk too, whos' the say they wouldn't still do that, especially if Mapleshade isn't there to protect them. Those kits would have been discriminated against and treated like trash, whether Mapleshade stayed with them or not. It's especially evident because even when Mapleshade was on supposed trial, no one stood up for her, let alone the innocent kits, and Frecklewish goes as far as to calling them "things". They were also accused of being a bad omen by a medicine cat. Honestly, the best scenario for Mapleshade would have been being granted permission to stay and wait out the storm, and then escorted off ThunderClan territory. It would have ensure their survival much better than how they were treated in the novella, and ThunderClan could still get rid of her for breaking the code, it would have been that easy. I think the more compelling question to ask here would be what would happen if Mapleshade did make it to RiverClan with her kits? What would happen between her, Appledusk and Reedshine, especially since Reedshine was already pregnant by then? Also, honestly, the only reason why Mapleshade's case is argued so much in the fandom in general is because people seem to forget that she was also a victim in her own novella. What she did was wrong, her breaking the code was wrong, killing cats were wrong, and so on, but it also doesn't justify how she and her kits were treated prior. But people refuse to acknowledge that the situation isn't as black and white, it's a very gray area, with very moral complications. But also a situation that could have easily been avoided.
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Post by Aqua on Dec 3, 2021 9:35:23 GMT -5
That’s a fair point, and I partly agree, not fully since apparently Bluestar was mentally ill, and Tigertwo is just a glorified Neanderthal, so not exactly sure if I’d call those comparable scenarios. But that aside. I’m now dying with genuine curiosity, which we all know curiosity killed the cat. Being that the main focal points of Mapleshade’s backstory and motivation for revenge are revealed at the end of Crookedstar’s promise. How would you’ve wanted the narrative to spin her story, without retconning or making major changes to what’s already been confirmed, and doesn’t make anyone else to be in the spotlight for fault, for her kits drowning but herself?. The only scenario I could think of that would make sense and be cohesive, would be Oakstar, Ravenwing and the rest of Thunderclan unanimously deciding to cast out Mapleshade, while acknowledging the kits are innocent, and being compassionate and merciful and declaring that they’d keep the kits and raise them like any other TC kit, followed by Mapleshade furiously refusing to allow her kits to remain in TC , and then her basically forcing them to leave with her. Note: hmmmm now that I mention it, that probably would of made a much better backstory, and been a far more cohesive explanation to why she went to the dark forest and was considered so evil in the first place. And we wouldn’t be arguing over this nonsensical garbage on the fandom. Dang it Vicky, why must you do this us? At the same time, it's a heinous act to forcefully separate a mother and her children. She wouldn't be forcing her kits to come with her, she'd be stopping the clan from forcefully tearing her family apart. It would be a similar situation to when Willowbreeze and Graypool were torn away from their mother, but also too young to understand the situation, just 10x worse. I also doubt that the kits would be treated fairly at all, they'd probably get the Raggedstar treatment, over their heritage, even more so because of who their father is period. Oakstar and Frecklewish were also already planning to use them as weapons against Appledusk too, whos' the say they wouldn't still do that, especially if Mapleshade isn't there to protect them. Those kits would have been discriminated against and treated like trash, whether Mapleshade stayed with them or not. It's especially evident because even when Mapleshade was on supposed trial, no one stood up for her, let alone the innocent kits, and Frecklewish goes as far as to calling them "things". They were also accused of being a bad omen by a medicine cat. Honestly, the best scenario for Mapleshade would have been being granted permission to stay and wait out the storm, and then escorted off ThunderClan territory. It would have ensure their survival much better than how they were treated in the novella, and ThunderClan could still get rid of her for breaking the code, it would have been that easy. I think the more compelling question to ask here would be what would happen if Mapleshade did make it to RiverClan with her kits? What would happen between her, Appledusk and Reedshine, especially since Reedshine was already pregnant by then? Also, honestly, the only reason why Mapleshade's case is argued so much in the fandom in general is because people seem to forget that she was also a victim in her own novella. What she did was wrong, her breaking the code was wrong, killing cats were wrong, and so on, but it also doesn't justify how she and her kits were treated prior. But people refuse to acknowledge that the situation isn't as black and white, it's a very gray area, with very moral complications. But also a situation that could have easily been avoided. I wish Darkstar allowed Mapleshade to stay and grieve for her kits. She probably wouldn't have been as willing to kill Appledusk or Reedshine if Riverclan gave her sympathy. I hate how nobody cared about a homeless queen and her kits tbh. Partly why I despise the book.
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Post by Ravenwing on Dec 3, 2021 9:44:41 GMT -5
At the same time, it's a heinous act to forcefully separate a mother and her children. She wouldn't be forcing her kits to come with her, she'd be stopping the clan from forcefully tearing her family apart. It would be a similar situation to when Willowbreeze and Graypool were torn away from their mother, but also too young to understand the situation, just 10x worse. I also doubt that the kits would be treated fairly at all, they'd probably get the Raggedstar treatment, over their heritage, even more so because of who their father is period. Oakstar and Frecklewish were also already planning to use them as weapons against Appledusk too, whos' the say they wouldn't still do that, especially if Mapleshade isn't there to protect them. Those kits would have been discriminated against and treated like trash, whether Mapleshade stayed with them or not. It's especially evident because even when Mapleshade was on supposed trial, no one stood up for her, let alone the innocent kits, and Frecklewish goes as far as to calling them "things". They were also accused of being a bad omen by a medicine cat. Honestly, the best scenario for Mapleshade would have been being granted permission to stay and wait out the storm, and then escorted off ThunderClan territory. It would have ensure their survival much better than how they were treated in the novella, and ThunderClan could still get rid of her for breaking the code, it would have been that easy. I think the more compelling question to ask here would be what would happen if Mapleshade did make it to RiverClan with her kits? What would happen between her, Appledusk and Reedshine, especially since Reedshine was already pregnant by then? Also, honestly, the only reason why Mapleshade's case is argued so much in the fandom in general is because people seem to forget that she was also a victim in her own novella. What she did was wrong, her breaking the code was wrong, killing cats were wrong, and so on, but it also doesn't justify how she and her kits were treated prior. But people refuse to acknowledge that the situation isn't as black and white, it's a very gray area, with very moral complications. But also a situation that could have easily been avoided. I wish Darkstar allowed Mapleshade to stay and grieve for her kits. She probably wouldn't have been as willing to kill Appledusk or Reedshine if Riverclan gave her sympathy. I hate how nobody cared about a homeless queen and her kits tbh. Partly why I despise the book. I agree, Darkstar should of. Though at the same time, I hate how we blame others for Mapleshade's actions. Just because they indirectly pushed her to make that decision, it was still Mapleshade's decision. And honestly, I feel like Mapleshade would of done it even if they were kind to her. Myler and Nettlebreeze tried to show her kindness and she just pushed them away and continued to be swamped in her world where everyone was against her. Mapleshade focus is on herself only. She never sees her actions as wrong at any point and pushes the blame on everyone else.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Dec 3, 2021 14:49:42 GMT -5
I wish Darkstar allowed Mapleshade to stay and grieve for her kits. She probably wouldn't have been as willing to kill Appledusk or Reedshine if Riverclan gave her sympathy. I hate how nobody cared about a homeless queen and her kits tbh. Partly why I despise the book. I agree, Darkstar should of. Though at the same time, I hate how we blame others for Mapleshade's actions. Just because they indirectly pushed her to make that decision, it was still Mapleshade's decision. And honestly, I feel like Mapleshade would of done it even if they were kind to her. Myler and Nettlebreeze tried to show her kindness and she just pushed them away and continued to be swamped in her world where everyone was against her. Mapleshade focus is on herself only. She never sees her actions as wrong at any point and pushes the blame on everyone else. When Nettlepaw found Mapleshade, she was ready to give up in that scene. The wording is depressing, she was described as starving and filthy, ready to rot in the ditch and never climb back out. She was ready to give up. It was Nettlepaw telling her that Frecklewish was watching her and her kits drown, that she became fueled with anger again, on top of her having literal hallucinations of her dead children telling her to kill so they could be at peace. She was far too gone at that point. On the other hand, Myler is some kittypet, she really has less of a reason to accept his kindness than any other cat, and when she did push him away it was after she just killed Appledusk and was also dying herself. She wanted to be alone in her final moments. Mapleshade did deserve punishment, for breaking the code, but at the same time she didn't deserve to be treated unfairly either. The lack of leniency the clans had toward her and her children, just because of who the father happened to be was quite disgusting. If anyone actually did help her, a lot of the narrative could have changed so easily. What if someone actually defended her during the unfair trial? What if Ravenwing actually suggested a safer way to kick her and the kits out? What if Frecklewish actually tried to help, or tried to get help? What if her kits survived and she made it to RiverClan? Or what if they still drowned, but Darkstar allowed her to grieve and wait out the storm? There's many ways this story could have turned out much better for everyone involved, but unfortunately it didn't. And considering how Mapleshade was treated, and how much she went through, it's unsurprising she snapped.
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Post by madhatter on Dec 13, 2021 20:34:38 GMT -5
I hate it. I read mapleshades vengence a couple times and well frecklewish's actions weren't good they were of someone who was lied to. mapleshade used frecklewishes DEAD brother, who her actual mate killed alongside a appretiace its literally said multiple times in the book that she didnt know the drowned, HECK the frecklewish watching the kits drown was a complete Assumpition on mapleshades end.
In fact its implied by nettlepaw Frecklewish left just after she noticed the riverclan patrol which could have been very shortly after They fell in. Frecklewish couldnt swim much less in a FLOODED river, if she dove in after them she could have risked the kits lives even more and possibly risk herself as well. she took what looked to her the best chance of the kits survival and sadly it did not end up as she thought it would. She seemed to actually think that riverclan patrol could help Mapleshade more than she could even try, she was so sure she left. SHE DID NOT STICK AROUND TO WATCH THEM DIE, even then she couldn't call for help flooded rivers are LOUD.
We only saw her through mapleshades heavily flawed perspective
The best view we have of frecklewish's character is before the truth is out. She's kind and up to helping mapleshade with the kits heck mapleshade lets her watch the birth. She was emotionlly unwell when she asked the question, and mapleshade used that to her advantage she may have never verbally said it but she never denyed it she played as if that was the truth and took advantage of this women, she says she can't like but then lies right afterwards
There are cats who have done so much more Frecklewish is among the Cats who were unfairly judged they let her ****ING father in who did way worse, she got her punishment from her brutal death. She even gave mapleshade a multiple warnings
Her only crime is being mean one time, and yes attacking mapleshade was a bad move BUT THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH WORSE THAT HASN'T BEEN PUNISHED, what about characters who trained the kits before six moons i don't see flintfang in the dark forest i don't see blackfoot getting any problems from starclan, or what about the cats actually responseble such as y'know DARKSTAR OR OAKSTAR.
I don't believe she should be in the dark forest nor do i believe she's completely innocent. SHes a flawed person but not enough to be condeemed to eternal suffering when Oakstar is prancing around starclan
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Post by Aqua on Dec 13, 2021 21:24:18 GMT -5
I hate it. I read mapleshades vengence a couple times and well frecklewish's actions weren't good they were of someone who was lied to. mapleshade used frecklewishes DEAD brother, who her actual mate killed alongside a appretiace its literally said multiple times in the book that she didnt know the drowned, HECK the frecklewish watching the kits drown was a complete Assumpition on mapleshades end. In fact its implied by nettlepaw Frecklewish left just after she noticed the riverclan patrol which could have been very shortly after They fell in. Frecklewish couldnt swim much less in a FLOODED river, if she dove in after them she could have risked the kits lives even more and possibly risk herself as well. she took what looked to her the best chance of the kits survival and sadly it did not end up as she thought it would. She seemed to actually think that riverclan patrol could help Mapleshade more than she could even try, she was so sure she left. SHE DID NOT STICK AROUND TO WATCH THEM DIE, even then she couldn't call for help flooded rivers are LOUD. We only saw her through mapleshades heavily flawed perspective The best view we have of frecklewish's character is before the truth is out. She's kind and up to helping mapleshade with the kits heck mapleshade lets her watch the birth. She was emotionlly unwell when she asked the question, and mapleshade used that to her advantage she may have never verbally said it but she never denyed it she played as if that was the truth and took advantage of this women, she says she can't like but then lies right afterwards There are cats who have done so much more Frecklewish is among the Cats who were unfairly judged they let her ****ING father in who did way worse, she got her punishment from her brutal death. She even gave mapleshade a multiple warnings Her only crime is being mean one time, and yes attacking mapleshade was a bad move BUT THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH WORSE THAT HASN'T BEEN PUNISHED, what about characters who trained the kits before six moons i don't see flintfang in the dark forest i don't see blackfoot getting any problems from starclan, or what about the cats actually responseble such as y'know DARKSTAR OR OAKSTAR. I don't believe she should be in the dark forest nor do i believe she's completely innocent. SHes a flawed person but not enough to be condeemed to eternal suffering when Oakstar is prancing around starclan It's just so unfair. Frecklewish acted this way only out of grief. Ravenwing said that Frecklewish was so devastated by her brother's death, THAT SHE FELT HER LIFE WAS WORTH LIVING AGAIN AFTER MAPLESHADE HAD HER KITS AND LIED ABOUT THE FATHER. It's completely screwed up, and a big reason why I despise Mapleshade in the first place! Was Frecklewish wrong for attacking the kits' mother, and calling them creatures? Of course! But Mapleshade manipulated her, letting her believe in false lies and didn't even try to understand why Frecklewish was so upset. She only cared about herself, and she honestly shouldn't have broken the damn code in the first place. They're both in the wrong. I don't give a shit who was worse. Frecklewish shouldn't have attacked a queen, but Mapleshade was just as horrible for letting a depressed she-cat believe in her lies and took advantage of FRECKLEWISH'S GRIEF OVER HER DEAD FAMILY MEMBER. It's messed up. Mapleshade is a selfish asshole who only ever cared about herself. If Dovewing, Yellowfang, Bluestar, Leafpool, and so many other cats who broke the code because of forbidden love are given so much crap, why does Mapleshade get a free pass? Why do fans expect Ravenwing to cover up for Mapleshade's mistakes that she created herself? She messed up. Period. She doesn't deserve any special treatment, she isn't any different than the others who all got a lot of crap of their own for lying. The ONLY thing Mapleshade should have gotten was sympathy from her clan, it was wrong to exile a queen and kits, but she shouldn't have expected a medicine cat - who's job is to literally heal and be honest with his clan from Starclan’s messages, mind you - to lie for her. She screwed up. She made her own bed and needed to lie in it. Frecklewish doesn't deserve to die, just because she lashed out at Mapleshade. We don't even know if Frecklewish even WANTED the kits to die (though I'm pretty sure she said so herself she didn't mean for the kits to die) so it's a little frustrating how people say she deserved the Dark Forest, when Mapleshade was about to kill her, she hesitated, confirming she didn't want the kits dead, only her. Granted, her words toward Mapleshade herself were uncalled for, she doesn't deserve to die, but I understand her hatred toward her. She used her, made her believe she was related to the kittens, and had no ounce of sympathy for her lies, she truly believed she didn't do anything wrong, even after her clan threw her out. Mapleshade never tried to be understanding, she just whined and said she only tried to love. She broke the code, she lied to her clan, and used their grief while they were upset over her Birchface. That ain't love, bitch; that's just you being selfish, lol.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Dec 13, 2021 21:39:25 GMT -5
I hate it. I read mapleshades vengence a couple times and well frecklewish's actions weren't good they were of someone who was lied to. mapleshade used frecklewishes DEAD brother, who her actual mate killed alongside a appretiace its literally said multiple times in the book that she didnt know the drowned, HECK the frecklewish watching the kits drown was a complete Assumpition on mapleshades end. In fact its implied by nettlepaw Frecklewish left just after she noticed the riverclan patrol which could have been very shortly after They fell in. Frecklewish couldnt swim much less in a FLOODED river, if she dove in after them she could have risked the kits lives even more and possibly risk herself as well. she took what looked to her the best chance of the kits survival and sadly it did not end up as she thought it would. She seemed to actually think that riverclan patrol could help Mapleshade more than she could even try, she was so sure she left. SHE DID NOT STICK AROUND TO WATCH THEM DIE, even then she couldn't call for help flooded rivers are LOUD. We only saw her through mapleshades heavily flawed perspective The best view we have of frecklewish's character is before the truth is out. She's kind and up to helping mapleshade with the kits heck mapleshade lets her watch the birth. She was emotionlly unwell when she asked the question, and mapleshade used that to her advantage she may have never verbally said it but she never denyed it she played as if that was the truth and took advantage of this women, she says she can't like but then lies right afterwards There are cats who have done so much more Frecklewish is among the Cats who were unfairly judged they let her ****ING father in who did way worse, she got her punishment from her brutal death. She even gave mapleshade a multiple warnings Her only crime is being mean one time, and yes attacking mapleshade was a bad move BUT THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH WORSE THAT HASN'T BEEN PUNISHED, what about characters who trained the kits before six moons i don't see flintfang in the dark forest i don't see blackfoot getting any problems from starclan, or what about the cats actually responseble such as y'know DARKSTAR OR OAKSTAR. I don't believe she should be in the dark forest nor do i believe she's completely innocent. SHes a flawed person but not enough to be condeemed to eternal suffering when Oakstar is prancing around starclan It's just so unfair. Frecklewish acted this way only out of grief. Ravenwing said that Frecklewish was so devastated by her brother's death, THAT SHE FELT HER LIFE WAS WORTH LIVING AGAIN AFTER MAPLESHADE HAD HER KITS AND LIED ABOUT THE FATHER. It's completely screwed up, and a big reason why I despise Mapleshade in the first place! Was Frecklewish wrong for attacking the kits' mother, and calling them creatures? Of course! But Mapleshade manipulated her, letting her believe in false lies and didn't even try to understand why Frecklewish was so upset. She only cared about herself, and she honestly shouldn't have broken the damn code in the first place. They're both in the wrong. I don't give a shit who was worse. Frecklewish shouldn't have attacked a queen, but Mapleshade was just as horrible for letting a depressed she-cat believe in her lies and took advantage of FRECKLEWISH'S GRIEF OVER HER DEAD FAMILY MEMBER. It's messed up. Mapleshade is a selfish asshole who only ever cared about herself. If Dovewing, Yellowfang, Bluestar, Leafpool, and so many other cats who broke the code because of forbidden love are given so much crap, why does Mapleshade get a free pass? Why do fans expect Ravenwing to cover up for Mapleshade's mistakes that she created herself? She messed up. Period. She doesn't deserve any special treatment, she isn't any different than the others who all got a lot of crap of their own for lying. The ONLY thing Mapleshade should have gotten was sympathy from her clan, it was wrong to exile a queen and kits, but she shouldn't have expected a medicine cat - who's job is to literally heal and be honest with his clan from Starclan’s messages, mind you - to lie for her. She screwed up. She made her own bed and needed to lie in it. Frecklewish doesn't deserve to die, just because she lashed out at Mapleshade. We don't even know if Frecklewish even WANTED the kits to die (though I'm pretty sure she said so herself she didn't mean for the kits to die) so it's a little frustrating how people say she deserved the Dark Forest, when Mapleshade was about to kill her, she hesitated, confirming she didn't want the kits dead, only her. Granted, her words toward Mapleshade herself were uncalled for, she doesn't deserve to die, but I understand her hatred toward her. She used her, made her believe she was related to the kittens, and had no ounce of sympathy for her lies, she truly believed she didn't do anything wrong, even after her clan threw her out. Mapleshade never tried to be understanding, she just whined and said she only tried to love. She broke the code, she lied to her clan, and used their grief while they were upset over her Birchface. That ain't love, bitch; that's just you being selfish, lol. The problem is that Maple's punishment was disproportionate to her crime simply because it was Appledusk. If it had been any other cat? They probably would have gone easy on her. Leafpool and others were not punished like this for forbidden romance - which is why people get upset for Maple While I'm not sure Frecklewish was a good person, I'd like to argue that what Mapleshade did doesn't excuse Frecklewish just because Maple was technically worse (and even then, if Frecklewish was happy/purposefully let the kits drown...is she really that much better?) Mapleshade is BAD, but that doesn't mean Frecklewish is good
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Dec 13, 2021 22:57:10 GMT -5
i don't see flintfang in the dark forest i don't see blackfoot getting any problems from starclan, or what about the cats actually responseble such as y'know DARKSTAR OR OAKSTAR. Not saying Frecklewish deserved it, but to be fair, Flintfang and Blackstar actually regretted their actions and had time to make up for them. Besides, just because one character did something bad doesn't negate what that other character did and I'm getting really tired of seeing this in general (not even just in fandoms), especially when characters like Flintfang and Blackstar have nothing to do with Frecklewish to begin with. I get what you're trying to say, but this just isn't a good argument to make. Oakstar was still eager to fight RiverClan when we last saw him, but if he's in StarClan, I think it's safe to assume he at least regretted sending the kits away by the time he died. As for Darkstar, the worst she did was send a grieving queen away. Scummy, sure, but not really something I'd say is Dark Forest worthy. We don't even know if she actually made it to StarClan anyway.
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Post by plaggy on Dec 13, 2021 23:12:00 GMT -5
There is a thing I always wondered about. This line by Oakstar: The most important thing right now is that Mapleshade's kits are safe and well. We will raise them to be great warriors like their father, and let them avenge his death when they are ready."
Also I think Flecklewish said something similar. I always wondered if the family was planning some kind of assassination attempt towards Appledusk. Like what kind of vengeance those two were planning. Were there planning the kits to grow up hating Appledusk? His lineage?
This isnt something morally for a warrior to do. Will any of them have go to the DF depending what they were planning to do.
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Post by madhatter on Dec 13, 2021 23:12:22 GMT -5
i don't see flintfang in the dark forest i don't see blackfoot getting any problems from starclan, or what about the cats actually responseble such as y'know DARKSTAR OR OAKSTAR. Not saying Frecklewish deserved it, but to be fair, Flintfang and Blackstar actually regretted their actions and had time to make up for them. Besides, just because one character did something bad doesn't negate what that other character did and I'm getting really tired of seeing this in general (not even just in fandoms), especially when characters like Flintfang and Blackstar have nothing to do with Frecklewish to begin with. I get what you're trying to say, but this just isn't a good argument to make. Oakstar was still eager to fight RiverClan when we last saw him, but if he's in StarClan, I think it's safe to assume he at least regretted sending the kits away by the time he died. As for Darkstar, the worst she did was send a grieving queen away. Scummy, sure, but not really something I'd say is Dark Forest worthy. We don't even know if she actually made it to StarClan anyway. Yeah tbh I like used those two because there names came in my head first i actually really love flintfang and blackstar, My main problem for Oakstar is that he and frecklewish were in the same situation and starclan gave him a freebee due to it but frecklewish is sooo awful for less crimes frecklewish showed regret about the kits so it just feels like the erins are being unfair and that starclan is just getting worse and worse as the series goes on. I would like it if they werent so gloryfied it would be awesome if they explored how incompatent they are but they just don't
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Transgender
🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle)
I didn't get thunder yet but the one thing I wonder abt has been spoiled so should I still buy?
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Post by 🌌dapple🌙 (formerly freckle) on Dec 14, 2021 10:30:37 GMT -5
If they do send her there I want them to go all the way with it and make her evil since apparently "the longer you're in the forest, the more evil you become"
The reasoning is all muddled to me, personally. Like I think she could have been sent there but in comparison to cats who've done more it feels slightly unbelievable.
But if they're gonna make her a villain then do it. Have her and Maple fight, make her evil. (Besides recently I've seen a lot of people wanting more female villains and with a mixed bag of backstory on how she got there, I think people very well could have a right to sympathize to an extent. I could see plenty of anti-Maple's taking her side and I think it could make for good Fandom discourse, like this exact thread.)
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