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Post by mlpmi6 on Sept 20, 2022 19:02:19 GMT -5
This book isn't too bad. I mean there are just some really stupid choses. It's at least mostly consistent, I just blazed through a few chapters to get though the book a little more. I do kind of plan of reading another series for a bit lol
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Post by mlpmi6 on Sept 21, 2022 13:28:05 GMT -5
I finished A Forest of Secrets and it is fairly consistant. Sure Mosskit was called 'he' but it otherwise alighns with things really well.
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on Sept 23, 2022 12:25:47 GMT -5
Ya why did it call mosskit a he wierd
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Post by mlpmi6 on Sept 23, 2022 16:21:00 GMT -5
I think this was the first book they were mentioned in so it could have been that Moss was meant to be a tom initially but was made into a she-cat but idk.
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on Sept 23, 2022 18:08:58 GMT -5
It does not make a big difference
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Post by mlpmi6 on Sept 23, 2022 18:16:58 GMT -5
It does not make a big difference I know. But it was something that somewhat caught my eye. There wasn't a lot to mention in this one.
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on Sept 23, 2022 18:43:57 GMT -5
Ya
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Post by mlpmi6 on Sept 28, 2022 17:06:29 GMT -5
I don't know what the new teritories in the prouloge of Rising Storm that Runningnose saw were,but it would be interesting if he knew they were going to be eventually be serching for the lake teritoy before the second arch was out
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Post by mlpmi6 on Oct 2, 2022 13:19:18 GMT -5
Other than Tawnykit being described as simply a golden tabby 9Which she might technically be in cannon Iève just always seen her depicted as a tortie) things are fairly good in this. Sure there is the silly fact that Firehearts scared of a tiny kit (which I cant even fully fault him for in theis book, and besideds if we say heès already big for his age it could make a little sence -I actually headcannon him as getting bigger than Tigerclawéstar was) and not giving Sandstorm an apprentice, when both him and Greystripe were rather inexperianced when they got theirs, its not that out of wack
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Post by mlpmi6 on Oct 8, 2022 11:55:27 GMT -5
I know I mentioned it before, but in this book it only proves that taking the river clan boarder in fire and ice was the worst idea. just not doing that would have solved quite a few of their issues I think. But also while were here why didn't wind clan let bluestar pass? I know there were the tentions, but still they were going to the highstones, not letting them pass was wrong.
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Post by mlpmi6 on Oct 24, 2022 12:14:35 GMT -5
I finished the book, and while i didn't hate it I didn't like the fact that fireheart was kind of an ass in several parts to Sandstorm. Sure he was stressed, and they made up quickly it was still unfortunate
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Post by mlpmi6 on Oct 29, 2022 15:16:54 GMT -5
I haven't gotten around to the next book, just focusing on a few other tings and giving myself a slight breack
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 4, 2022 14:12:40 GMT -5
This book had been good so far with keeping up with things
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Post by Katanaheart on Nov 4, 2022 14:20:09 GMT -5
I finished A Forest of Secrets and it is fairly consistant. Sure Mosskit was called 'he' but it otherwise alighns with things really well. This was Mosskit’s first time being mentioned. Mosskit was also called a he during Secrets of the Clans when Snowfur was taking her sister’s kit to StarClan. So likely Mosskit was considered to be a Tom until changed to a she-cat in Bluestar’s Prophecy. (I actually prefer tom Mosskit as the phrase “my tiny, brave son.” Flows better than my “tiny, brave daughter.” to me.)
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Post by ham on Nov 5, 2022 20:49:20 GMT -5
so tru bc is squirrlflieght ***** empty or wha
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 7, 2022 18:04:36 GMT -5
Yeah, like I said fairly small, but I didn't know about the Secret of the clans part.
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 7, 2022 18:05:14 GMT -5
so tru bc is squirrlflieght ***** empty or wha I'm sorry, I'm not following
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 9, 2022 20:01:19 GMT -5
This book is so hard to get through knowing what happens to Snowkit, Swiftpaw and Brightpaw. I get Bluestar being a bit crazy but expetially now it's just a slog to get through
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Nov 10, 2022 15:52:37 GMT -5
This book is so hard to get through knowing what happens to Snowkit, Swiftpaw and Brightpaw. I get Bluestar being a bit crazy but expetially now it's just a slog to get through Bluestar was not "a bit crazy". She had (confirmed by Vicky Holmes) dementia which got brought forth by Tigerclaw's betrayal. Of course, this does not in any way excuse her behaviour towards Brightheart in particular or how she reacted to the demise of Swiftpaw and Snowkit. It's certainly serves as an explanation for her actions during A Dangerous Path in particular though.
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 12, 2022 12:57:15 GMT -5
This book is so hard to get through knowing what happens to Snowkit, Swiftpaw and Brightpaw. I get Bluestar being a bit crazy but expetially now it's just a slog to get through Bluestar was not "a bit crazy". She had (confirmed by Vicky Holmes) dementia which got brought forth by Tigerclaw's betrayal. Of course, this does not in any way excuse her behaviour towards Brightheart in particular or how she reacted to the demise of Swiftpaw and Snowkit. It's certainly serves as an explanation for her actions during A Dangerous Path in particular though. Corect me if i'm wrong, but wasn't she like this in her Super Edition as well though? I haven't read it myself, so I might be wrong, but I've definitely heard that. I mean she was a bit paranoid about the hole Thistleclaw thing which caused one of her kits to die, when that situation could have been handled so much better by just talking. And I'll admits I might be biased because I've come to not really like her as a leader for a lot of her choices. Your right it works for a Dangerus path, I think at that point she wasn't just dealing with dementia. Not a doctor but at times she was outright paranoid. I didn't mean to be diminutive using the word crazy, and really could have picked a better word, but I don't think it's dementia alone. Even still, I more say it from a reeding perspective. Dose she hade reasons in universe? Sure. As a reader dose that make me dislike her sharater any less? No, not at all.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Nov 12, 2022 13:30:51 GMT -5
Bluestar was not "a bit crazy". She had (confirmed by Vicky Holmes) dementia which got brought forth by Tigerclaw's betrayal. Of course, this does not in any way excuse her behaviour towards Brightheart in particular or how she reacted to the demise of Swiftpaw and Snowkit. It's certainly serves as an explanation for her actions during A Dangerous Path in particular though. Corect me if i'm wrong, but wasn't she like this in her Super Edition as well though? I haven't read it myself, so I might be wrong, but I've definitely heard that. I mean she was a bit paranoid about the hole Thistleclaw thing which caused one of her kits to die, when that situation could have been handled so much better by just talking. And I'll admits I might be biased because I've come to not really like her as a leader for a lot of her choices. Your right it works for a Dangerus path, I think at that point she wasn't just dealing with dementia. Not a doctor but at times she was outright paranoid. I didn't mean to be diminutive using the word crazy, and really could have picked a better word, but I don't think it's dementia alone. Even still, I more say it from a reeding perspective. Dose she hade reasons in universe? Sure. As a reader dose that make me dislike her sharater any less? No, not at all. You mean was she acting "crazy" (which she did not even do after Tigerclaw's betrayal since having dementia does not mean someone is crazy) in her SE? Nope. Considering that Thistleclaw did turn out to be evil, her so called paranoia and resentment of him there did prove to be correct in the end anyways. Perhaps you ought to read the book or at least the wiki summary for it yourself before casting judgement about her behaviour there though. Yes, the "who will be deputy" suspense between Bluefur/star and Thistleclaw could have been handled better without her giving up her kits to their father Oakheart. Especially since Sunstar later on told her he would have chosen her as his deputy regardless. But that's just what happened in the story and Bluestar regretted Mosskit's death very much afterwards. Paranoia is actually a rather common sympton people with dementia can experience. So Bluestar really was "just dealing with dementia" as you worded it since paranoia and delusions are a symptom of that. Here are a few more symptoms of dementia, including paranoia, some of which apply to Bluestar as well: Experiencing memory loss, poor judgment, and confusion Difficulty speaking, understanding and expressing thoughts Wandering and getting lost in a familiar enviroment Repeating questions Taking longer to complete normal daily tasks Losing interest in normal daily activities or events Hallucinating or experiencing delusions or paranoia Acting impulsively Not caring about other people’s feelings Losing balance and problems with movement You are free to dislike Bluestar, of course. She is a deeply flawed fictional character, after all. That being said, please don't refer to her having canonically confirmed dementia as being crazy anymore, as that's just not a good take.
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 12, 2022 13:43:21 GMT -5
Runningnose: Don't tell us why you banished Tigerclaw, it would be giving away clan secrets. By the way Nightstar didn't get any lives and the clan was desperate, and so we took in Tigerstar Fireheart: Did he say anything about plans on attacking us? Runningnose: Clan secrets
Just tell them the truth at this point Fireheart, seriously. But I also don't blame Fireheart for asking, because really Runningnose had already just spilled that much. Also at that point would Fireheart explaining that Tigerclaw was a tarator be revealing that many secrets? Like they could still play off the fast that it was the smoke making Bluestar sick right?
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 12, 2022 14:55:24 GMT -5
Corect me if i'm wrong, but wasn't she like this in her Super Edition as well though? I haven't read it myself, so I might be wrong, but I've definitely heard that. I mean she was a bit paranoid about the hole Thistleclaw thing which caused one of her kits to die, when that situation could have been handled so much better by just talking. And I'll admits I might be biased because I've come to not really like her as a leader for a lot of her choices. Your right it works for a Dangerus path, I think at that point she wasn't just dealing with dementia. Not a doctor but at times she was outright paranoid. I didn't mean to be diminutive using the word crazy, and really could have picked a better word, but I don't think it's dementia alone. Even still, I more say it from a reeding perspective. Dose she hade reasons in universe? Sure. As a reader dose that make me dislike her sharater any less? No, not at all. You mean was she acting "crazy" (which she did not even do after Tigerclaw's betrayal since having dementia does not mean someone is crazy) in her SE? Nope. Considering that Thistleclaw did turn out to be evil, her so called paranoia and resentment of him there did prove to be correct in the end anyways. Perhaps you ought to read the book or at least the wiki summary for it yourself before casting judgement about her behaviour there though. Yes, the "who will be deputy" suspense between Bluefur/star and Thistleclaw could have been handled better without her giving up her kits to their father Oakheart. Especially since Sunstar later on told her he would have chosen her as his deputy regardless. But that's just what happened in the story and Bluestar regretted Mosskit's death very much afterwards. Paranoia is actually a rather common sympton people with dementia can experience. So Bluestar really was "just dealing with dementia" as you worded it since paranoia and delusions are a symptom of that. Here are a few more symptoms of dementia, including paranoia, some of which apply to Bluestar as well: Experiencing memory loss, poor judgment, and confusion Difficulty speaking, understanding and expressing thoughts Wandering and getting lost in a familiar enviroment Repeating questions Taking longer to complete normal daily tasks Losing interest in normal daily activities or events Hallucinating or experiencing delusions or paranoia Acting impulsively Not caring about other people’s feelings Losing balance and problems with movement You are free to dislike Bluestar, of course. She is a deeply flawed fictional character, after all. That being said, please don't refer to her having canonically confirmed dementia as being crazy anymore, as that's just not a good take. All of this! In general, I also feel like people really underestimate not only how awful Thistleclaw was, but Goosefeather's role as well. Thistleclaw had always been too battle-hungry for his own good and had in fact only gotten worse by the time Bluefur gives up her kits. The fact that even Rosetail—Thistleclaw's own sister—thought he'd make a terrible leader should probably say something. As for Goosefeather, he would remind Bluefur of her destiny basically every time they interacted after she becomes an apprentice, including coming up with the idea for Bluefur to give up her kits while ThunderClan is going through a harsh leaf-bare. Bluefur also doesn't even really take the warning as seriously as Goosefeather wants her to until she herself has a vision of Thistleclaw being covered in blood. The choice was ultimately up to Bluefur herself, but it's not like she didn't have outside factors influencing her, either. Both are important to keep in mind. The fact that Sunstar even says he wouldn't have picked Thistleclaw anyway just makes the entire book really stupid though, and considering this series is what it is, I still can't really tell if that was intentional or not. And yeah, let's not call her crazy, either. Not when she had an actual disorder that affected her until she died.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Nov 12, 2022 15:39:01 GMT -5
You mean was she acting "crazy" (which she did not even do after Tigerclaw's betrayal since having dementia does not mean someone is crazy) in her SE? Nope. Considering that Thistleclaw did turn out to be evil, her so called paranoia and resentment of him there did prove to be correct in the end anyways. Perhaps you ought to read the book or at least the wiki summary for it yourself before casting judgement about her behaviour there though. Yes, the "who will be deputy" suspense between Bluefur/star and Thistleclaw could have been handled better without her giving up her kits to their father Oakheart. Especially since Sunstar later on told her he would have chosen her as his deputy regardless. But that's just what happened in the story and Bluestar regretted Mosskit's death very much afterwards. Paranoia is actually a rather common sympton people with dementia can experience. So Bluestar really was "just dealing with dementia" as you worded it since paranoia and delusions are a symptom of that. Here are a few more symptoms of dementia, including paranoia, some of which apply to Bluestar as well: Experiencing memory loss, poor judgment, and confusion Difficulty speaking, understanding and expressing thoughts Wandering and getting lost in a familiar enviroment Repeating questions Taking longer to complete normal daily tasks Losing interest in normal daily activities or events Hallucinating or experiencing delusions or paranoia Acting impulsively Not caring about other people’s feelings Losing balance and problems with movement You are free to dislike Bluestar, of course. She is a deeply flawed fictional character, after all. That being said, please don't refer to her having canonically confirmed dementia as being crazy anymore, as that's just not a good take. All of this! In general, I also feel like people really underestimate not only how awful Thistleclaw was, but Goosefeather's role as well. Thistleclaw had always been too battle-hungry for his own good and had in fact only gotten worse by the time Bluefur gives up her kits. The fact that even Rosetail—Thistleclaw's own sister—thought he'd make a terrible leader should probably say something. As for Goosefeather, he would remind Bluefur of her destiny basically every time they interacted after she becomes an apprentice, including coming up with the idea for Bluefur to give up her kits while ThunderClan is going through a harsh leaf-bare. Bluefur also doesn't even really take the warning as seriously as Goosefeather wants her to until she herself has a vision of Thistleclaw being covered in blood. The choice was ultimately up to Bluefur herself, but it's not like she didn't have outside factors influencing her, either. Both are important to keep in mind. The fact that Sunstar even says he wouldn't have picked Thistleclaw anyway just makes the entire book really stupid though, and considering this series is what it is, I still can't really tell if that was intentional or not. And yeah, let's not call her crazy, either. Not when she had an actual disorder that affected her until she died. Exactly. Bluestar had every right to be wary of Thistleclaw for his bloodthirsty ways in retrospect which ended up landing him in the Dark Forest and deservedly so. I also agree that Goosefeather's part in encouraging his niece's doubts about certain cats as well as reminding her of her status as being part of her own prophecy doesn't get mentioned enough when talking about this storyline and their relationship dynamic in BP generally. As for the "Bluestar giving up her kits despite Sunstar later saying he would have made her his deputy over Thistleclaw anyways" plot point, I'm going to give the writing team the benefit of the doubt and assume they just did not fully think things through on how unnecessary of a decision that was. Even though it made for an interesting (if arguably predictable) situation in TPB regarding Bluestar as a character. Facts. Dementia is a serious condition which should be adressed/talked about accordingly with respect.
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 12, 2022 16:16:38 GMT -5
Corect me if i'm wrong, but wasn't she like this in her Super Edition as well though? I haven't read it myself, so I might be wrong, but I've definitely heard that. I mean she was a bit paranoid about the hole Thistleclaw thing which caused one of her kits to die, when that situation could have been handled so much better by just talking. And I'll admits I might be biased because I've come to not really like her as a leader for a lot of her choices. Your right it works for a Dangerus path, I think at that point she wasn't just dealing with dementia. Not a doctor but at times she was outright paranoid. I didn't mean to be diminutive using the word crazy, and really could have picked a better word, but I don't think it's dementia alone. Even still, I more say it from a reeding perspective. Dose she hade reasons in universe? Sure. As a reader dose that make me dislike her sharater any less? No, not at all. You mean was she acting "crazy" (which she did not even do after Tigerclaw's betrayal since having dementia does not mean someone is crazy) in her SE? Nope. Considering that Thistleclaw did turn out to be evil, her so called paranoia and resentment of him there did prove to be correct in the end anyways. Perhaps you ought to read the book or at least the wiki summary for it yourself before casting judgement about her behaviour there though. Yes, the "who will be deputy" suspense between Bluefur/star and Thistleclaw could have been handled better without her giving up her kits to their father Oakheart. Especially since Sunstar later on told her he would have chosen her as his deputy regardless. But that's just what happened in the story and Bluestar regretted Mosskit's death very much afterwards. Paranoia is actually a rather common sympton people with dementia can experience. So Bluestar really was "just dealing with dementia" as you worded it since paranoia and delusions are a symptom of that. Here are a few more symptoms of dementia, including paranoia, some of which apply to Bluestar as well: Experiencing memory loss, poor judgment, and confusion Difficulty speaking, understanding and expressing thoughts Wandering and getting lost in a familiar enviroment Repeating questions Taking longer to complete normal daily tasks Losing interest in normal daily activities or events Hallucinating or experiencing delusions or paranoia Acting impulsively Not caring about other people’s feelings Losing balance and problems with movement You are free to dislike Bluestar, of course. She is a deeply flawed fictional character, after all. That being said, please don't refer to her having canonically confirmed dementia as being crazy anymore, as that's just not a good take. I'm going to start by saying I genuinely do not mean to come off as rude. I absolutly could have worded that a lot better. Like I said, I absolulty could have used a better word than crazy to begin with, and I had partly forgotten about the dementia thing that part's on me. But I have issues with that. I'm going to say up front -since sometime I cant read tone behind these types of things- I don't want to come off as rude, I just want to explain my side. First of all, read the summery. From that I will say that she had some minor mental health issues growing up. S Reading the summary it's coming off like she might have experienced some level of anxiety, partly caused by the deaths that she witnessed. That part I say as someone who has generalized, so I do understand her feelings and appologise for generalizig that behavior as the same level. This dose lead into her issues with Tistleclaw. And yes he was proven to be bad, but it was a leap to immediately get rid of her kits. Especially since Sunstar would never have appointed him deputy anyways. I think at least that part could have been a little eased by her maybe asking the leader about who he was thinking about for deputy. I don't think it's too unreasonable to ask, especially since it seems there is some time between Tawnyspots getting sick, and Bluefur having her kits. This is definitely a looking back situation, but also couldn't she have brought up what happened with Tiny to Sunstar. Because he when he was attacked? Reading like the synopsis of the chapter it says it was clear he was oblivious, and that Tigerpaw could have killed him. That's a bit of a side thing, and I will admit all these books have issues with comunicating. But that's part of things. So to go off that, she did show signs of having mental illness when she was young. Is that her fault? No, I get mental health issues but I could go on for a long time about my issues with Bluestar. So I'll start from the beginning, and I'll even offer some ideas on what could have happened. Bluestar was able to see through Thistleclaw, noting he was too ambitious for his own good, and seeing him as dangerous. She noted some similar behavior in Tigerpaw. She noted that Tigerpaw could have possibly killed Tiny (A kit about Whitekit's size at the time) and that the two were far too violent with it. She threatens to tell Sunstar, but that's never mentioned again. She could have taken the kit before things got that far, and taken him to the clan and explained what happened to Sunstar. Taken him after one of the attacks, and told Sunstar. Or you know have just told Sunstar after. Like Spottedpaw witnessed this, she could have collaborated if it had been brought up. She already didn't trust Thistleclaw at that point so why wouldn't she? I will be fair and say Spottedpaw probably should have told someone how he was behaving with her, but I partly understand she was fairly young at that point. But she absolutly should have spoken up about the dark forest situation. I will add in with this concern that Ravenpaw was struggling under Tigerclaw, it was clear that he was timing, and anxious and wasn't getting very far under the tom. So why not change his mentor. And sure, Ravenpaw was miraculously brave in Redtail'xss Debt but in that Redtail did kill Oakheart, and he died in a rockslide in the original books so there is that. So taking into consideration both outcomes we have a situation. Either way that's just one part of it. Staying on the topic of Thistleclaw. Yes he was evil in the end, but the situation with her kits shows some level of irrational thinking; possibly anxiety related, already. Instead of, oh idk, asking Sunstar about it she jumps to the conclusion that if she doesn't give up her kits then her clan will fall. That's... A little much. So considering how close she was with Sunstar why didn't she just talk to him about her concerns. At the verry least he could have helped her through her anxiety and worry like he did when her mother died. While not talking is a common issue throughout the books, this is the biggest example of it all. And yes she felt guilty about Mosskit's death, it could have been avoided. Not only that but even knowing Goosefeather had a curse, why the hell would Bluestar listen to a word he said. She didn't trust him after her mother's death, and that was arguably her most justified distrust. His prophecy did lead to Moonflower's death. Hawk and Stormtail have responsibility, but he was partly responcible. Also why not again just ask Sunstar about the propehcy the medicine cat gave her. Like leaders also share toungs with StarClan, why not ask for a second oppinion. But I also want to mention this. Thistleclaw was seen as to ambitious by her, but her giving up her kits because of her ambiton to lead the clan wasn't? Like I'm sorry, but I've already given ways this could have gone different without her needing to do that. That issue lead to a death and that is Absoluty on her. Guilt on her it was a somewhat selfish move. Also I'm looking at other discusions to see other people's perspectives and to just get a bit more of an idea of things. But wouldn't her greif also have posibly made her not fit to become deputy? Moving on however, let's get to Fireheart. Because there are a few things here. Like her not inidiatly giving him a direct mentor when Runningwind, Mousefur, herself, Darkstripe, Longtail, and Willowpelt all didn't have apprentices. When Redtail died, Dustpaw was given to Darkstripe, so why coudln't Firepaw have a mentor from the start. Also, why didn't she stop the fight against Longtail? A trained warrior, who wasn't holding back at all? I mean sure he had to lose the collar, but she's the leader. Rusty could have died, someone elce could have been at least somewhat injured, and she already knew he could fight. Also why just watch his fight with Graypaw? I mean sure, test him. But by the time the fight with Longtail happened it was unnecessary. Letting it get to the point of a fight, dosn't make her seem necessarily like the best leader, but I will also say no one in that situation was really all that good, so there is that. I do also want to point out however, that Greypaw also didn't get another mentor when Lionheart died. So, why was that? He was still an apprentice, and once again Dustpaw did get another mentor. Why were those two different? To me this actually makes later situations with any apprentices a bit worse. Cinderpaw and Brakenpaw were apprenticed a few moons before Thornpaw and Brightpaw, and while their mother did say they were ready I have several issues with this. For one Cinderpaw was not ready, or at bare minimum had some type of hyperactivity. Second of all I do not see why only two of them would be ready and not the other two, considering they all have the same life experiances and Cinderkit was deemed ready. While all that is also somewhat on Frostfur, Fireheart and Greystripe were literally just made warriors themselves; and while they had brought back WindClan I'll get into that in a second. I want to mention Cloudkit. He too was made an apprentice before his littermates. I don't think it was that much sooner, so he couldn't have been that much older than them. So there is that, but I am going to note here that Bluestar made him a warrior because he was Fireheart's apprentice and didn't beleive in StarClan. Sure word of god says she had demnetia at this point, but she had her moments of not even trusting Whitestorm. Furhter, why agree to giving Longtail and Darkstripe apprentices if she didn't trust them? Like sure they needed mentors, but Runningwins -who actually wasnt that bad of a mentor from what we were shown- Mousefur did't have an apprentice, Sandstorm maybe? Like there were options. And at this point parents did mentor their own kits so that was an option as well. By the time we get to Snowkit, it's a bit of a record. I won't go too into the issue of Dustpaw and Sandpaw not being made warriors earlyer, past this; Greystripe and Fireheart had been apprentices for I would say six moons at most. But let's absolutly mention WindClan for a second. Why send your two youngest warriors on a mission like that? Like why not send at least one senior warrior? Like Whitestorm or just about anyone else? While that's not a big thing, it could have stopped them from going the long way and prevented the situation that lead to Whiteclaw's death. the main part in this before we even get to what happened when she did (WOG) get demntia. Bluefur was willing to at least somewhat believe Fireheart when he collected a fair amount of evidence against Tigerclaw. He Absolut went too far mentioning her kits, but still. She was calm, heard him out, and he even was fairly certian that he could have convinced her if he had thought his points through. I'm not saying she absolutly should have seen it coming, but she flipped on Fireheart for daring to ask about them. Rember up to that point him having RiverClan as a source wasn't a big deal, but the moment the kits were brought up that was when she had an issue with it? So slipping into where she had dementia, she 5) I know that Bluestar and Frostfur talked about Cinderpaw and Brakenpaw being apprenticed early but that seemed irresponsible. It was right after Brokenstar's thing with traning too young kits, and while it dosn't say how young they were that doesn't entirly change things. Not only that but they were given to the youngest warriors when there were Mousefur, Runningwind, Willowpelt, herself, tecnically Tigerclaw, the background queen that was mentioned in into the wild (I will note thhere are several characters without names that just vanish so there is that against them but still), and herself technically. And I still don't understand the situation with the two, and will say both Frostfur and Bluestar have responcibility from this one Naming Cloudkit an apprentice before Ashkit and Fernkit is another example of this. 6) Bluefur was willing to beleive Fireheart about what had happened with Tigerclaw during the battle against sunning rocks, untill her kits were mentioned and she snapped at him. Yeah, Fireheart over steped his boundaries with that one, but she had been listening to him. She hadn't been angry with his tresspasing when he was telling the story, it was just when her kits are mentioned that she got snappy. She dose note that the accusations are serious, but at that point there was something. That hole situation was a bit weird anyways. But Fireheart dose not that if he had thought his points through, he could have convinced her. Looking around on the internet, someone on reddit brought up a good point. How did she see Thistleclaw's ambition and not notice the same things in Tigerclaw? So that's at least some examples of her not being the best leader before hand. And as was started before, mental health and dementia is not an excuse for a lot of what she did after. I'm going to fully read the book for a bit more but I also want to say something. Dementia is given as a reason, I don't expect everyone to know that. Sure looking it up can kind of explain it, but I'm in the boat of word of god only goes so far. While I could have used a better word than crazy it felt sudden, and out of nowhere for her to turn so fast. I would have understood watching her decline, but to me her mental health struggles both feel like they happened to fast, and are being dragged out way to long. That parts from the perspective of a reader. Which was the origonal point actually. It was hard to read, because of how mean she was acting reason or not.
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 12, 2022 16:28:06 GMT -5
All of this! In general, I also feel like people really underestimate not only how awful Thistleclaw was, but Goosefeather's role as well. Thistleclaw had always been too battle-hungry for his own good and had in fact only gotten worse by the time Bluefur gives up her kits. The fact that even Rosetail—Thistleclaw's own sister—thought he'd make a terrible leader should probably say something. As for Goosefeather, he would remind Bluefur of her destiny basically every time they interacted after she becomes an apprentice, including coming up with the idea for Bluefur to give up her kits while ThunderClan is going through a harsh leaf-bare. Bluefur also doesn't even really take the warning as seriously as Goosefeather wants her to until she herself has a vision of Thistleclaw being covered in blood. The choice was ultimately up to Bluefur herself, but it's not like she didn't have outside factors influencing her, either. Both are important to keep in mind. The fact that Sunstar even says he wouldn't have picked Thistleclaw anyway just makes the entire book really stupid though, and considering this series is what it is, I still can't really tell if that was intentional or not. And yeah, let's not call her crazy, either. Not when she had an actual disorder that affected her until she died. Exactly. Bluestar had every right to be wary of Thistleclaw for his bloodthirsty ways in retrospect which ended up landing him in the Dark Forest and deservedly so. I also agree that Goosefeather's part in encouraging his niece's doubts about certain cats as well as reminding her of her status as being part of her own prophecy doesn't get mentioned enough when talking about this storyline and their relationship dynamic in BP generally. As for the "Bluestar giving up her kits despite Sunstar later saying he would have made her his deputy over Thistleclaw anyways" plot point, I'm going to give the writing team the benefit of the doubt and assume they just did not fully think things through on how unnecessary of a decision that was. Even though it made for an interesting (if arguably predictable) situation in TPB regarding Bluestar as a character. Facts. Dementia is a serious condition which should be adressed/talked about accordingly with respect. I do apologize for the mess up. I absolutly agree with the fact that I used bad wording. I'm fully reading Bluestar's Prophacy to get a bit more of an idea. But to be fair, I'm not sure it was even handled great in the books. Not saying tat it can't be addressed but I forgot that had been given as a reason, and I feel like that might be a by name situation. Responding here too because my other one got long but I 100% agree I could have worded my question a bit better. To be clear, no matter what I meant crazy was the worst way of putting it. It was insensitive all around
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 12, 2022 16:35:55 GMT -5
Reading Bluestar's prophecy. Early on she is a little hard on herself, but at this point she's a kit. But she also kind of had some level of upsetting thoughts. When Stormfur leaves she very quickly gets to thinking that he didn't like them
Not only that but when he tells them off for going into the Warriors den, she is quickly kind of down on herself for what was for all intensive purposes, not that big of a deal.
Edit: I think some of Bluefur/star's anxiety based issues are inherited. Because after a fairly small issue, Moonflower tells her kits to never enter a medicine cat den again. So yeah, not saying she had no reason to worry, but a little far. But this is a start of Bluekit having trama. This is the first time someone close to her could posibley have gotten hurt because of her, and she would deffinitly pick up on Moonflowers fear. I'll say at this point I feel kinda bad for her.
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Bisexual
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Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Nov 12, 2022 17:15:32 GMT -5
You mean was she acting "crazy" (which she did not even do after Tigerclaw's betrayal since having dementia does not mean someone is crazy) in her SE? Nope. Considering that Thistleclaw did turn out to be evil, her so called paranoia and resentment of him there did prove to be correct in the end anyways. Perhaps you ought to read the book or at least the wiki summary for it yourself before casting judgement about her behaviour there though. Yes, the "who will be deputy" suspense between Bluefur/star and Thistleclaw could have been handled better without her giving up her kits to their father Oakheart. Especially since Sunstar later on told her he would have chosen her as his deputy regardless. But that's just what happened in the story and Bluestar regretted Mosskit's death very much afterwards. Paranoia is actually a rather common sympton people with dementia can experience. So Bluestar really was "just dealing with dementia" as you worded it since paranoia and delusions are a symptom of that. Here are a few more symptoms of dementia, including paranoia, some of which apply to Bluestar as well: Experiencing memory loss, poor judgment, and confusion Difficulty speaking, understanding and expressing thoughts Wandering and getting lost in a familiar enviroment Repeating questions Taking longer to complete normal daily tasks Losing interest in normal daily activities or events Hallucinating or experiencing delusions or paranoia Acting impulsively Not caring about other people’s feelings Losing balance and problems with movement You are free to dislike Bluestar, of course. She is a deeply flawed fictional character, after all. That being said, please don't refer to her having canonically confirmed dementia as being crazy anymore, as that's just not a good take. I'm going to start by saying I genuinely do not mean to come off as rude. I absolutly could have worded that a lot better. Like I said, I absolulty could have used a better word than crazy to begin with, and I had partly forgotten about the dementia thing that part's on me. But I have issues with that. I'm going to say up front -since sometime I cant read tone behind these types of things- I don't want to come off as rude, I just want to explain my side. First of all, read the summery. From that I will say that she had some minor mental health issues growing up. S Reading the summary it's coming off like she might have experienced some level of anxiety, partly caused by the deaths that she witnessed. That part I say as someone who has generalized, so I do understand her feelings and appologise for generalizig that behavior as the same level. This dose lead into her issues with Tistleclaw. And yes he was proven to be bad, but it was a leap to immediately get rid of her kits. Especially since Sunstar would never have appointed him deputy anyways. I think at least that part could have been a little eased by her maybe asking the leader about who he was thinking about for deputy. I don't think it's too unreasonable to ask, especially since it seems there is some time between Tawnyspots getting sick, and Bluefur having her kits. This is definitely a looking back situation, but also couldn't she have brought up what happened with Tiny to Sunstar. Because he when he was attacked? Reading like the synopsis of the chapter it says it was clear he was oblivious, and that Tigerpaw could have killed him. That's a bit of a side thing, and I will admit all these books have issues with comunicating. But that's part of things. So to go off that, she did show signs of having mental illness when she was young. Is that her fault? No, I get mental health issues but I could go on for a long time about my issues with Bluestar. So I'll start from the beginning, and I'll even offer some ideas on what could have happened. Bluestar was able to see through Thistleclaw, noting he was too ambitious for his own good, and seeing him as dangerous. She noted some similar behavior in Tigerpaw. She noted that Tigerpaw could have possibly killed Tiny (A kit about Whitekit's size at the time) and that the two were far too violent with it. She threatens to tell Sunstar, but that's never mentioned again. She could have taken the kit before things got that far, and taken him to the clan and explained what happened to Sunstar. Taken him after one of the attacks, and told Sunstar. Or you know have just told Sunstar after. Like Spottedpaw witnessed this, she could have collaborated if it had been brought up. She already didn't trust Thistleclaw at that point so why wouldn't she? I will be fair and say Spottedpaw probably should have told someone how he was behaving with her, but I partly understand she was fairly young at that point. But she absolutly should have spoken up about the dark forest situation. I will add in with this concern that Ravenpaw was struggling under Tigerclaw, it was clear that he was timing, and anxious and wasn't getting very far under the tom. So why not change his mentor. And sure, Ravenpaw was miraculously brave in Redtail'xss Debt but in that Redtail did kill Oakheart, and he died in a rockslide in the original books so there is that. So taking into consideration both outcomes we have a situation. Either way that's just one part of it. Staying on the topic of Thistleclaw. Yes he was evil in the end, but the situation with her kits shows some level of irrational thinking; possibly anxiety related, already. Instead of, oh idk, asking Sunstar about it she jumps to the conclusion that if she doesn't give up her kits then her clan will fall. That's... A little much. So considering how close she was with Sunstar why didn't she just talk to him about her concerns. At the verry least he could have helped her through her anxiety and worry like he did when her mother died. While not talking is a common issue throughout the books, this is the biggest example of it all. And yes she felt guilty about Mosskit's death, it could have been avoided. Not only that but even knowing Goosefeather had a curse, why the hell would Bluestar listen to a word he said. She didn't trust him after her mother's death, and that was arguably her most justified distrust. His prophecy did lead to Moonflower's death. Hawk and Stormtail have responsibility, but he was partly responcible. Also why not again just ask Sunstar about the propehcy the medicine cat gave her. Like leaders also share toungs with StarClan, why not ask for a second oppinion. But I also want to mention this. Thistleclaw was seen as to ambitious by her, but her giving up her kits because of her ambiton to lead the clan wasn't? Like I'm sorry, but I've already given ways this could have gone different without her needing to do that. That issue lead to a death and that is Absoluty on her. Guilt on her it was a somewhat selfish move. Also I'm looking at other discusions to see other people's perspectives and to just get a bit more of an idea of things. But wouldn't her greif also have posibly made her not fit to become deputy? Moving on however, let's get to Fireheart. Because there are a few things here. Like her not inidiatly giving him a direct mentor when Runningwind, Mousefur, herself, Darkstripe, Longtail, and Willowpelt all didn't have apprentices. When Redtail died, Dustpaw was given to Darkstripe, so why coudln't Firepaw have a mentor from the start. Also, why didn't she stop the fight against Longtail? A trained warrior, who wasn't holding back at all? I mean sure he had to lose the collar, but she's the leader. Rusty could have died, someone elce could have been at least somewhat injured, and she already knew he could fight. Also why just watch his fight with Graypaw? I mean sure, test him. But by the time the fight with Longtail happened it was unnecessary. Letting it get to the point of a fight, dosn't make her seem necessarily like the best leader, but I will also say no one in that situation was really all that good, so there is that. I do also want to point out however, that Greypaw also didn't get another mentor when Lionheart died. So, why was that? He was still an apprentice, and once again Dustpaw did get another mentor. Why were those two different? To me this actually makes later situations with any apprentices a bit worse. Cinderpaw and Brakenpaw were apprenticed a few moons before Thornpaw and Brightpaw, and while their mother did say they were ready I have several issues with this. For one Cinderpaw was not ready, or at bare minimum had some type of hyperactivity. Second of all I do not see why only two of them would be ready and not the other two, considering they all have the same life experiances and Cinderkit was deemed ready. While all that is also somewhat on Frostfur, Fireheart and Greystripe were literally just made warriors themselves; and while they had brought back WindClan I'll get into that in a second. I want to mention Cloudkit. He too was made an apprentice before his littermates. I don't think it was that much sooner, so he couldn't have been that much older than them. So there is that, but I am going to note here that Bluestar made him a warrior because he was Fireheart's apprentice and didn't beleive in StarClan. Sure word of god says she had demnetia at this point, but she had her moments of not even trusting Whitestorm. Furhter, why agree to giving Longtail and Darkstripe apprentices if she didn't trust them? Like sure they needed mentors, but Runningwins -who actually wasnt that bad of a mentor from what we were shown- Mousefur did't have an apprentice, Sandstorm maybe? Like there were options. And at this point parents did mentor their own kits so that was an option as well. By the time we get to Snowkit, it's a bit of a record. I won't go too into the issue of Dustpaw and Sandpaw not being made warriors earlyer, past this; Greystripe and Fireheart had been apprentices for I would say six moons at most. But let's absolutly mention WindClan for a second. Why send your two youngest warriors on a mission like that? Like why not send at least one senior warrior? Like Whitestorm or just about anyone else? While that's not a big thing, it could have stopped them from going the long way and prevented the situation that lead to Whiteclaw's death. the main part in this before we even get to what happened when she did (WOG) get demntia. Bluefur was willing to at least somewhat believe Fireheart when he collected a fair amount of evidence against Tigerclaw. He Absolut went too far mentioning her kits, but still. She was calm, heard him out, and he even was fairly certian that he could have convinced her if he had thought his points through. I'm not saying she absolutly should have seen it coming, but she flipped on Fireheart for daring to ask about them. Rember up to that point him having RiverClan as a source wasn't a big deal, but the moment the kits were brought up that was when she had an issue with it? So slipping into where she had dementia, she 5) I know that Bluestar and Frostfur talked about Cinderpaw and Brakenpaw being apprenticed early but that seemed irresponsible. It was right after Brokenstar's thing with traning too young kits, and while it dosn't say how young they were that doesn't entirly change things. Not only that but they were given to the youngest warriors when there were Mousefur, Runningwind, Willowpelt, herself, tecnically Tigerclaw, the background queen that was mentioned in into the wild (I will note thhere are several characters without names that just vanish so there is that against them but still), and herself technically. And I still don't understand the situation with the two, and will say both Frostfur and Bluestar have responcibility from this one Naming Cloudkit an apprentice before Ashkit and Fernkit is another example of this. 6) Bluefur was willing to beleive Fireheart about what had happened with Tigerclaw during the battle against sunning rocks, untill her kits were mentioned and she snapped at him. Yeah, Fireheart over steped his boundaries with that one, but she had been listening to him. She hadn't been angry with his tresspasing when he was telling the story, it was just when her kits are mentioned that she got snappy. She dose note that the accusations are serious, but at that point there was something. That hole situation was a bit weird anyways. But Fireheart dose not that if he had thought his points through, he could have convinced her. Looking around on the internet, someone on reddit brought up a good point. How did she see Thistleclaw's ambition and not notice the same things in Tigerclaw? So that's at least some examples of her not being the best leader before hand. And as was started before, mental health and dementia is not an excuse for a lot of what she did after. I'm going to fully read the book for a bit more but I also want to say something. Dementia is given as a reason, I don't expect everyone to know that. Sure looking it up can kind of explain it, but I'm in the boat of word of god only goes so far. While I could have used a better word than crazy it felt sudden, and out of nowhere for her to turn so fast. I would have understood watching her decline, but to me her mental health struggles both feel like they happened to fast, and are being dragged out way to long. That parts from the perspective of a reader. Which was the origonal point actually. It was hard to read, because of how mean she was acting reason or not. While I did read through your entire reply just now, I'm not going to adress every single point as for me it just seems rather pointless to come up with solutions and ways to fix some of the issues BP and TPB have at this time since both that arc and the book have been out for so long and Bluestar as a character has also been dead for ages now. Of course, for the purpose of a rewrite or AUs, it's totally understandable but when it comes to the canon source material, I just don't see the point in still wanting to fix things there by theorizing about what could have been done better in retrospect. Since it just is what it is in canon. And as I've said before, you are absolutely allowed to dislike or even hate Bluestar. I just personally choose not to because her deeply flawed characterization is interesting to me and her character is way too iconic for me to start hating her at this stage literal decades after she got introduced into this series. She was anything but a perfect leader and made some really bad choices but also had moments in between where the overall concept of Bluestar was just fascinating to read about, in my opinion. I'll say it again regarding her dementia, this disorder is an explanation for her actions and not an excuse for them. As for how fast her showing signs of this came along after a certain event, once again, Tigerclaw's betrayal served as the ultimate catalyst for Bluestar rapid decline. She is shown to not act like herself after he tried to murder her and is never the same until her death due to his attempt at her life. As for her not noticing his true self, in BP she is stated to not want to believe Goosefeather when he tells her Tigerkit is/will be dangerous. She wanted to believe it was not true and eventually convinced herself that it could not be true as seen in the first half of TPB (which got written before BP so it definitely can be seen as an explanation for her not wanting to believe Fireheart's accusations against Tigerclaw initially at first). On the topic of her kits with Oakheart and gettig angry at Fireheart for mentioning RiverClan and implying something in this regard, I'm pretty sure the mere mention of her kits was just a very touchy subject for her to think about and remember what it cost her to become deputy and then leader. Not sure what point you are trying to make by saying that "her mental health struggles both feel like they happened too fast, and are being dragged out way to long". Symptoms of dementia can indeed sometimes be brought on suddenly and equally as quickly get worse. Which seems to have been the case with Bluestar. Once more, Tigerclaw's betrayal serves as the catalyst for Bluestar's rapid decline. Of course, dementia can also develop gradually over many months and even years but this was just not the case with Bluestar except if her dementia was already lying dormant in her brain during early TPB or even before that and then swiftly brought forth by Tigerclaw's treachery, which I'm doubtful of. Regarding your last line though, Bluestar "acting mean" and out of character from her usually "wise leader" personality was the point of showing to the reader that something had indeed changed within her after losing her third deputy to the bloodthirsty want of him craving power and being ready to try and murder her for it. That's literally the point. Readers where supposed to be shocked by her cruel behaviour towards her own Clanmates and recognize that she was not the same/truly herself anymore. While some level of sympathy is usually reserved for her in regards to her condition, most fans/readers tend to not excuse her actions and do hold her accountable while also keeping in mind that her having dementia did affect her negatively.
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 12, 2022 17:44:15 GMT -5
Goosefeather caused an uneccisary battle, Hawkheart was a monster, Stormtail abandoned his mate, a lot of cats were kind of terible in this. But we are at big trama number one with Bluepaw. I will say she dose go to distrut with Goosefeather. Reasonably, sure. But it's there.
Even Snowpaw seemed happier. Traitor. Had she forgotten about Moonflower? That's unreasonable, and not a good sign with what we know know comes. She's aslo being a general jerk. I get grieving but, she's taking it out on her clanmates because she thinks there too happy.
She’s in one of her moods. Bluepaw lashed her tail as Snowpaw’s words echoed in her ears this indicates it's happened before. So she's prone to eppisodes of depression at least.
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Post by mlpmi6 on Nov 12, 2022 18:03:42 GMT -5
Not sure what point you are trying to make by saying that "her mental health struggles both feel like they happened too fast, and are being dragged out way to long". Symptoms of dementia can indeed sometimes be brought on suddenly and equally as quickly get worse. Which seems to have been the case with Bluestar. Once more, Tigerclaw's betrayal serves as the catalyst for Bluestar's rapid decline. Of course, dementia can also develop gradually over many months and even years but this was just not the case with Bluestar except if her dementia was already lying dormant in her brain during early TPB or even before that and then swiftly brought forth by Tigerclaw's treachery, which I'm doubtful of. I'll probably have a bit of a more rounded response but I wanted to clear this part up now. I meant that one as more of a general pacing issue for the books. And I really appreciate you responding actually. I'm not tryuing to be too hard on her and to be compleatly forward, I could be projecting some of my own past issues. I have have some anger related issues due to my own mental health. As for the last part, minor projection and to be even more fair, it could be worsened by depression or anxiety. I absolutly give her she was not well at the time. I just don't like the sudden shift, maybe that's a me problum. I will admit it's one of those it set of some kind of responce in me, and that's why I am reading her novella. I want to see the world from her perspective. And jsut while I'm here
Yeah that's probably fair. Probably could have just left it at a bit of a list of things I noticed, I just wanted to explain why I felt they weren't great and give examples. I still think she wasn't that great before, but I had a not great young shildhood sosome of it could fully be me problums. Like they might not entirly be really problums
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