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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 2, 2020 13:59:08 GMT -5
Remember, they forgave Ashfur because "he loved too much" and then turned around a seriously contemplated sending LEAFPOOL to the DF. Starclan is dumb Leafpool, eh, but Squirrelflight? They're the ones who told her to cover for Leafpool They also pretty much told Leafpool that she had to give up her kits, Spottedleaf gave her the vague 'Follow your heart', and then stated the kits had to be born and accepted because they were prophecy Starclan is the only one to blame in that situation Leafpool wouldn't have deserved the DF considering any bad was greatly outweighed by the sheer amount of good she did in helping ALL of the clans |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 14:02:02 GMT -5
Leafpool, eh, but Squirrelflight? They're the ones who told her to cover for Leafpool They also pretty much told Leafpool that she had to give up her kits, Spottedleaf gave her the vague 'Follow your heart', and then stated the kits had to be born and accepted because they were prophecy Starclan is the only one to blame in that situation Leafpool wouldn't have deserved the DF considering any bad was greatly outweighed by the sheer amount of good she did in helping ALL of the clans True I really don't understand StarClan's logic with StarClan and the DF, they let Ashfur into StarClan, but they threw Stumpytail into the DF. |
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Post by Sundance on Sept 2, 2020 14:11:46 GMT -5
I know right?? I was excited by the prospect of Ashfur being the antagonist for this arc, but apprehensive over the thought that instead of making him into a three-dimensional villain who commits immoral acts but has some marginally good intentions/heartfelt relationships, that they were going to practically retcon him into your typical mustache-twirling, mad-cackling evil villain from the get go. :-P Don't get me wrong, I still love most of his character arc in TBC, but I'm bummed that he was weirdly demonized in Graystripe's Vow (in part because I think it would have been sooooo much more satisfying to show him as a sweet, caring tom back in the day ... further emphasizing his dramatic fall from grace) and that Thornclaw didn't seem shocked in the least that Ashfur was the Imposter when they used to be best bros. :-P Why would you expect that from Ashfur? His entire villainous history has been nothing but spiteful cruelty for its own sake. It'd be like expecting an arc with Thistleclaw where he suddenly doesn't want to be deputy anymore, or one with Scourge where he doesn't care about revenge on Tigerstar. Ashfur being horrible without a good reason is 100% in-character, he never cared about having good intentions. It's been awhile since I've read TPB-TNP, but I remember Ashfur being a sweet warrior before the Squirrelflight debacle, who was truly dedicated to ThunderClan. Even after the breakup, he might have been committed to hurting Squirrelflight-even targeting her loved ones in the process-but that was the extent of his villainy. He didn't seem to want to hurt ThunderClan otherwise, and he certainly wasn't power hungry. So Ashfur being a cocky jerk in Graystripe's Vow-openly mocking Firestar and speaking disobediently felt out of character to me. A clear case of retconning. |
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Post by Jaysnow on Sept 2, 2020 14:12:06 GMT -5
Everyone magically knowing about the Assfur drama and agreeing he’s terrible lowers my hopes for the this installment tbh
As if Graystripe’s Vow demonizing him wasn’t enough, now even TC themselves are willing to let rumors like that about one of their own past warriors to spread around DX I know right?? I was excited by the prospect of Ashfur being the antagonist for this arc, but apprehensive over the thought that instead of making him into a three-dimensional villain who commits immoral acts but has some marginally good intentions/heartfelt relationships, that they were going to practically retcon him into your typical mustache-twirling, mad-cackling evil villain from the get go. :-P Don't get me wrong, I still love most of his character arc in TBC, but I'm bummed that he was weirdly demonized in Graystripe's Vow (in part because I think it would have been sooooo much more satisfying to show him as a sweet, caring tom back in the day ... further emphasizing his dramatic fall from grace) and that Thornclaw didn't seem shocked in the least that Ashfur was the Imposter when they used to be best bros. :-P 100% agreed. I'm still excited to see how it plays out, but I agree with this, especially the GV bit. |
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Post by *Faith* on Sept 2, 2020 14:32:08 GMT -5
They also pretty much told Leafpool that she had to give up her kits, Spottedleaf gave her the vague 'Follow your heart', and then stated the kits had to be born and accepted because they were prophecy Starclan is the only one to blame in that situation Leafpool wouldn't have deserved the DF considering any bad was greatly outweighed by the sheer amount of good she did in helping ALL of the clans True I really don't understand StarClan's logic with StarClan and the DF, they let Ashfur into StarClan, but they threw Stumpytail into the DF. Is that still canon? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 14:33:27 GMT -5
True I really don't understand StarClan's logic with StarClan and the DF, they let Ashfur into StarClan, but they threw Stumpytail into the DF. Is that still canon? I think he was mentioned to be in there in Omen of the Stars, like someone said his name in the book |
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 2, 2020 14:33:54 GMT -5
Why would you expect that from Ashfur? His entire villainous history has been nothing but spiteful cruelty for its own sake. It'd be like expecting an arc with Thistleclaw where he suddenly doesn't want to be deputy anymore, or one with Scourge where he doesn't care about revenge on Tigerstar. Ashfur being horrible without a good reason is 100% in-character, he never cared about having good intentions. I don't know if that's quite accurate. Ashfur iirc had a tendency to try and justify/rationalize his own actions to paint himself as a victim who is just getting back at someone who deserved it (albeit whatever the cost). Mostly centered around Squirrelflight's rejection, of course. He villainized Squirrelflight but never blamed Bramblestar, so he had focused intent rather than just blind evilness; I could see him expanding that villification to the whole clan in recompense for villifying him in his own murder. Point being, I understand him focusing exclusively on Squirrelflight, but I think it'd equally fit his internal narrative to victimized himself further and develop personal beef with the clan(S). There's a difference between him giving self-justification and the expectation of him having good intentions(or at least good in anyone's mind besides Ashfur). He always gave self-justifications, but none of them ever really held any kind of good intentions. As far as him never blaming Brambleclaw, I really don't think we can take him at his word there. Let's bear in mind that his instinctive reaction to the break-up is to start screaming about Brambleclaw's evil heritage and that the fox trap plan has him setting up Brambleclaw to be the fallguy. The only one who says he never blamed Brambleclaw is Ashfur himself, but his actions don't line up with that and he is also an entirely unreliable source for every reason. In any case, I am pretty sure if asked that TBC Ashfur would still give some internal justification for it. I just don't think he'll have any real good intentions and expecting that is expecting something unreasonable for him. In TPB, he is barely present. He has maybe ten lines of dialogue if that many. In TNP, he sneers about kittypets more than any other character, accuses Leafpool of conspiring with Brambleclaw, pushes for fights constantly, and is noted by characters to be frightening because of how angry and bitter he looks. I'd argue that murdering Thunderclan's leader is a pretty big helping of harming the clan. It's more accurate to say that while it wasn't his chief goal, if he could twist it into hurting Squirrelflight, he'll justify it in a heartbeat. Ashfur's actions are actually very self consistent. For instance, his mockery of Firestar is almost ripped right from TNP's dialogue. "“I’m taking out the dawn patrol,” Mousefur announced as she came up. “Do you still want us to look for Cloudtail and Brightheart?” “Not that there’s much point, if they left on purpose,” Ashfur added darkly." "“I wouldn’t put it past Cloudtail to have gone back to the Twolegs,” Mousefur growled. “With so little prey in the forest, even Twoleg food must look tempting.” “And he ate it often enough when he was an apprentice,” Ashfur put in" It's the exact same line he trots out against Firestar in GV, and it's amazing consistency by this series's standards. Any sweetness from Ashfur is entirely a function of him just not EXISTING as a character pre-Squirrelflight debacle, who barely had any scenes or dialogue. When we start getting more from him though, he rapidly heads in an ugly direction except with Squirrelflight, and even then he can't help himself from dropping smears on kittypets. |
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Post by *Faith* on Sept 2, 2020 14:41:42 GMT -5
I think he was mentioned to be in there in Omen of the Stars, like someone said his name in the book I don't remember him being in OOTS at all. |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 2, 2020 14:42:24 GMT -5
I think he was mentioned to be in there in Omen of the Stars, like someone said his name in the book I don't remember him being in OOTS at all. That's because he wasn't. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 14:43:58 GMT -5
I think he was mentioned to be in there in Omen of the Stars, like someone said his name in the book I don't remember him being in OOTS at all. Oh, I thought someone mentioned his name when they were training in the DF |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 2, 2020 14:47:04 GMT -5
I don't remember him being in OOTS at all. Oh, I thought someone mentioned his name when they were training in the DF You're probably thinking of Snowtuft or Maggottail. |
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Post by highprince on Sept 2, 2020 16:37:02 GMT -5
Why would you expect that from Ashfur? His entire villainous history has been nothing but spiteful cruelty for its own sake. It'd be like expecting an arc with Thistleclaw where he suddenly doesn't want to be deputy anymore, or one with Scourge where he doesn't care about revenge on Tigerstar. Ashfur being horrible without a good reason is 100% in-character, he never cared about having good intentions. I don't know if that's quite accurate. Ashfur iirc had a tendency to try and justify/rationalize his own actions to paint himself as a victim who is just getting back at someone who deserved it (albeit whatever the cost). Mostly centered around Squirrelflight's rejection, of course. He villainized Squirrelflight but never blamed Bramblestar, so he had focused intent rather than just blind evilness; I could see him expanding that villification to the whole clan in recompense for villifying him in his own murder. Point being, I understand him focusing exclusively on Squirrelflight, but I think it'd equally fit his internal narrative to victimized himself further and develop personal beef with the clan(S). Exactly. I don’t know where people see “mindless brute” in Ashfur’s character. Even if he doesn’t like kittypets or didn’t like Brambleclaw, so do/did a large amount of characters. The only villainous things that Ashfur’s done was to get back at what he thought were injustices against him. The only way his behavior makes sense is if he hates all the clans for letting Hollyleaf get away with his murder. |
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Sept 2, 2020 16:42:48 GMT -5
I don't know if that's quite accurate. Ashfur iirc had a tendency to try and justify/rationalize his own actions to paint himself as a victim who is just getting back at someone who deserved it (albeit whatever the cost). Mostly centered around Squirrelflight's rejection, of course. He villainized Squirrelflight but never blamed Bramblestar, so he had focused intent rather than just blind evilness; I could see him expanding that villification to the whole clan in recompense for villifying him in his own murder. Point being, I understand him focusing exclusively on Squirrelflight, but I think it'd equally fit his internal narrative to victimized himself further and develop personal beef with the clan(S). Exactly. I don’t know where people see “mindless brute” in Ashfur’s character. Even if he doesn’t like kittypets or didn’t like Brambleclaw, so do/did a large amount of characters. The only villainous things that Ashfur’s done was to get back at what he thought were injustices against him. The only way his behavior makes sense is if he hates all the clans for letting Hollyleaf get away with his murder. Jayfeather says that Ashfur is prob attacking all the Clams cause he knows that hurting the Clans will hurt Squirrelflight the most |
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Post by highprince on Sept 2, 2020 16:45:47 GMT -5
Exactly. I don’t know where people see “mindless brute” in Ashfur’s character. Even if he doesn’t like kittypets or didn’t like Brambleclaw, so do/did a large amount of characters. The only villainous things that Ashfur’s done was to get back at what he thought were injustices against him. The only way his behavior makes sense is if he hates all the clans for letting Hollyleaf get away with his murder. Jayfeather says that Ashfur is prob attacking all the Clams cause he knows that hurting the Clans will hurt Squirrelflight the most Yeah, that reasoning is bs and I hate it ngl |
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 2, 2020 16:50:26 GMT -5
I feel it should be noted that in the preview Bristlefrost is very wary of Squirrelflight's assessment, and seems to think that Squirrelflight is in over her head.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Sept 2, 2020 17:29:40 GMT -5
Jayfeather says that Ashfur is prob attacking all the Clams cause he knows that hurting the Clans will hurt Squirrelflight the most Yeah, that reasoning is bs and I hate it ngl Thank you Jayfeather, for your brilliant and necessary observation. One of the more petty reasons I hate this arc is how stupid Jay's become. Like, I read that line in the preview and I was like "really? Out of ALL the things you know about Ashfur, THAT'S what you come up with?" |
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Sept 2, 2020 17:36:13 GMT -5
Yeah, that reasoning is bs and I hate it ngl Thank you Jayfeather, for your brilliant and necessary observation. One of the more petty reasons I hate this arc is how stupid Jay's become. Like, I read that line in the preview and I was like "really? Out of ALL the things you know about Ashfur, THAT'S what you come up with?" What should he have said, then? |
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Post by highprince on Sept 2, 2020 17:40:47 GMT -5
Yeah, that reasoning is bs and I hate it ngl Thank you Jayfeather, for your brilliant and necessary observation. One of the more petty reasons I hate this arc is how stupid Jay's become. Like, I read that line in the preview and I was like "really? Out of ALL the things you know about Ashfur, THAT'S what you come up with?" Oh, tell me about it. He doubted Shadowpaw when he was chosen to literally save the Clans as an apprentice, he outs Mothwing’s past atheism when he says she believes and he should be one to understand how flawed StarClan can be, and now this completely stupid line of reasoning? Where is Jayfeather |
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Post by Skypaw13 on Sept 2, 2020 17:52:10 GMT -5
Thank you Jayfeather, for your brilliant and necessary observation. One of the more petty reasons I hate this arc is how stupid Jay's become. Like, I read that line in the preview and I was like "really? Out of ALL the things you know about Ashfur, THAT'S what you come up with?" What should he have said, then? Honestly? Nothing. He should have just not spoken there. He added pretty much nothing to the discussion and he's completely ignored by everyone in the scene after he talks. |
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Post by Skypaw13 on Sept 2, 2020 17:59:24 GMT -5
Thank you Jayfeather, for your brilliant and necessary observation. One of the more petty reasons I hate this arc is how stupid Jay's become. Like, I read that line in the preview and I was like "really? Out of ALL the things you know about Ashfur, THAT'S what you come up with?" Oh, tell me about it. He doubted Shadowpaw when he was chosen to literally save the Clans as an apprentice, he outs Mothwing’s past atheism when he says she believes and he should be one to understand how flawed StarClan can be, and now this completely stupid line of reasoning? Where is Jayfeather New headcanon. After The Last Hope, something tore in the space-time continuum and Jayfeather and Jay's Wing traded places permanently. JW is doing an at least passable job at impersonating Jayfeather, but he's not quite smart or snarky enough to make it genuine so he just comes off as a caricature. |
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 2, 2020 22:18:04 GMT -5
They also pretty much told Leafpool that she had to give up her kits, Spottedleaf gave her the vague 'Follow your heart', and then stated the kits had to be born and accepted because they were prophecy Starclan is the only one to blame in that situation Leafpool wouldn't have deserved the DF considering any bad was greatly outweighed by the sheer amount of good she did in helping ALL of the clans True I really don't understand StarClan's logic with StarClan and the DF, they let Ashfur into StarClan, but they threw Stumpytail into the DF. Was that a Su thing? Because none of her DF things make any sense. I doubt Stumpytail is in the DF |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 22:20:31 GMT -5
True I really don't understand StarClan's logic with StarClan and the DF, they let Ashfur into StarClan, but they threw Stumpytail into the DF. Was that a Su thing? Because none of her DF things make any sense. I doubt Stumpytail is in the DF Maybe? But I was sure I saw him being mentioned by name in Omen of the Stars, but Cinder could be right, and I mistook him as another cat. But I have a different version of Omen of the Stars than most people on here do, like in my copy, it has Mousewhisker x Blossomfall, instead of Thornclaw x Blossomfall, so anything is possible I guess. |
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 2, 2020 22:22:02 GMT -5
I don't know if that's quite accurate. Ashfur iirc had a tendency to try and justify/rationalize his own actions to paint himself as a victim who is just getting back at someone who deserved it (albeit whatever the cost). Mostly centered around Squirrelflight's rejection, of course. He villainized Squirrelflight but never blamed Bramblestar, so he had focused intent rather than just blind evilness; I could see him expanding that villification to the whole clan in recompense for villifying him in his own murder. Point being, I understand him focusing exclusively on Squirrelflight, but I think it'd equally fit his internal narrative to victimized himself further and develop personal beef with the clan(S). There's a difference between him giving self-justification and the expectation of him having good intentions(or at least good in anyone's mind besides Ashfur). He always gave self-justifications, but none of them ever really held any kind of good intentions. As far as him never blaming Brambleclaw, I really don't think we can take him at his word there. Let's bear in mind that his instinctive reaction to the break-up is to start screaming about Brambleclaw's evil heritage and that the fox trap plan has him setting up Brambleclaw to be the fallguy. The only one who says he never blamed Brambleclaw is Ashfur himself, but his actions don't line up with that and he is also an entirely unreliable source for every reason. In any case, I am pretty sure if asked that TBC Ashfur would still give some internal justification for it. I just don't think he'll have any real good intentions and expecting that is expecting something unreasonable for him. In TPB, he is barely present. He has maybe ten lines of dialogue if that many. In TNP, he sneers about kittypets more than any other character, accuses Leafpool of conspiring with Brambleclaw, pushes for fights constantly, and is noted by characters to be frightening because of how angry and bitter he looks. I'd argue that murdering Thunderclan's leader is a pretty big helping of harming the clan. It's more accurate to say that while it wasn't his chief goal, if he could twist it into hurting Squirrelflight, he'll justify it in a heartbeat. Ashfur's actions are actually very self consistent. For instance, his mockery of Firestar is almost ripped right from TNP's dialogue. "“I’m taking out the dawn patrol,” Mousefur announced as she came up. “Do you still want us to look for Cloudtail and Brightheart?” “Not that there’s much point, if they left on purpose,” Ashfur added darkly." "“I wouldn’t put it past Cloudtail to have gone back to the Twolegs,” Mousefur growled. “With so little prey in the forest, even Twoleg food must look tempting.” “And he ate it often enough when he was an apprentice,” Ashfur put in" It's the exact same line he trots out against Firestar in GV, and it's amazing consistency by this series's standards. Any sweetness from Ashfur is entirely a function of him just not EXISTING as a character pre-Squirrelflight debacle, who barely had any scenes or dialogue. When we start getting more from him though, he rapidly heads in an ugly direction except with Squirrelflight, and even then he can't help himself from dropping smears on kittypets. I wonder if he's remembered as sweet for the sole purpose he helped with the dogs to avenge his mother. Which...really just means he loves his mom |
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Sept 2, 2020 22:32:37 GMT -5
I don't know if that's quite accurate. Ashfur iirc had a tendency to try and justify/rationalize his own actions to paint himself as a victim who is just getting back at someone who deserved it (albeit whatever the cost). Mostly centered around Squirrelflight's rejection, of course. He villainized Squirrelflight but never blamed Bramblestar, so he had focused intent rather than just blind evilness; I could see him expanding that villification to the whole clan in recompense for villifying him in his own murder. Point being, I understand him focusing exclusively on Squirrelflight, but I think it'd equally fit his internal narrative to victimized himself further and develop personal beef with the clan(S). There's a difference between him giving self-justification and the expectation of him having good intentions(or at least good in anyone's mind besides Ashfur). He always gave self-justifications, but none of them ever really held any kind of good intentions. As far as him never blaming Brambleclaw, I really don't think we can take him at his word there. Let's bear in mind that his instinctive reaction to the break-up is to start screaming about Brambleclaw's evil heritage and that the fox trap plan has him setting up Brambleclaw to be the fallguy. The only one who says he never blamed Brambleclaw is Ashfur himself, but his actions don't line up with that and he is also an entirely unreliable source for every reason. In any case, I am pretty sure if asked that TBC Ashfur would still give some internal justification for it. I just don't think he'll have any real good intentions and expecting that is expecting something unreasonable for him. In TPB, he is barely present. He has maybe ten lines of dialogue if that many. In TNP, he sneers about kittypets more than any other character, accuses Leafpool of conspiring with Brambleclaw, pushes for fights constantly, and is noted by characters to be frightening because of how angry and bitter he looks. I'd argue that murdering Thunderclan's leader is a pretty big helping of harming the clan. It's more accurate to say that while it wasn't his chief goal, if he could twist it into hurting Squirrelflight, he'll justify it in a heartbeat. Ashfur's actions are actually very self consistent. For instance, his mockery of Firestar is almost ripped right from TNP's dialogue. "“I’m taking out the dawn patrol,” Mousefur announced as she came up. “Do you still want us to look for Cloudtail and Brightheart?” “Not that there’s much point, if they left on purpose,” Ashfur added darkly." "“I wouldn’t put it past Cloudtail to have gone back to the Twolegs,” Mousefur growled. “With so little prey in the forest, even Twoleg food must look tempting.” “And he ate it often enough when he was an apprentice,” Ashfur put in" It's the exact same line he trots out against Firestar in GV, and it's amazing consistency by this series's standards. Any sweetness from Ashfur is entirely a function of him just not EXISTING as a character pre-Squirrelflight debacle, who barely had any scenes or dialogue. When we start getting more from him though, he rapidly heads in an ugly direction except with Squirrelflight, and even then he can't help himself from dropping smears on kittypets. Ashfur supported/defended Firestar and spoke good things about him, such as his knowledge of the territory and decisions at a Gathering, as well as Brambleclaw and his friendship w Hawkfrost in Twilight when he was dating Squirrelflight and he gave Brambleclaw a friendly nod in early TNP |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 2, 2020 22:33:32 GMT -5
There's a difference between him giving self-justification and the expectation of him having good intentions(or at least good in anyone's mind besides Ashfur). He always gave self-justifications, but none of them ever really held any kind of good intentions. As far as him never blaming Brambleclaw, I really don't think we can take him at his word there. Let's bear in mind that his instinctive reaction to the break-up is to start screaming about Brambleclaw's evil heritage and that the fox trap plan has him setting up Brambleclaw to be the fallguy. The only one who says he never blamed Brambleclaw is Ashfur himself, but his actions don't line up with that and he is also an entirely unreliable source for every reason. In any case, I am pretty sure if asked that TBC Ashfur would still give some internal justification for it. I just don't think he'll have any real good intentions and expecting that is expecting something unreasonable for him. In TPB, he is barely present. He has maybe ten lines of dialogue if that many. In TNP, he sneers about kittypets more than any other character, accuses Leafpool of conspiring with Brambleclaw, pushes for fights constantly, and is noted by characters to be frightening because of how angry and bitter he looks. I'd argue that murdering Thunderclan's leader is a pretty big helping of harming the clan. It's more accurate to say that while it wasn't his chief goal, if he could twist it into hurting Squirrelflight, he'll justify it in a heartbeat. Ashfur's actions are actually very self consistent. For instance, his mockery of Firestar is almost ripped right from TNP's dialogue. "“I’m taking out the dawn patrol,” Mousefur announced as she came up. “Do you still want us to look for Cloudtail and Brightheart?” “Not that there’s much point, if they left on purpose,” Ashfur added darkly." "“I wouldn’t put it past Cloudtail to have gone back to the Twolegs,” Mousefur growled. “With so little prey in the forest, even Twoleg food must look tempting.” “And he ate it often enough when he was an apprentice,” Ashfur put in" It's the exact same line he trots out against Firestar in GV, and it's amazing consistency by this series's standards. Any sweetness from Ashfur is entirely a function of him just not EXISTING as a character pre-Squirrelflight debacle, who barely had any scenes or dialogue. When we start getting more from him though, he rapidly heads in an ugly direction except with Squirrelflight, and even then he can't help himself from dropping smears on kittypets. I wonder if he's remembered as sweet for the sole purpose he helped with the dogs to avenge his mother. Which...really just means he loves his mom Yeah, that was Ashfur's most defining moment in the first arc besides I guess covering for Cloudpaw in RS. He also underestimated BloodClan because of their collars and was part of the group of apprentices that helped kill Bone. For the most part, he was really just an average apprentice from what I can remember. |
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 2, 2020 22:41:06 GMT -5
There's a difference between him giving self-justification and the expectation of him having good intentions(or at least good in anyone's mind besides Ashfur). He always gave self-justifications, but none of them ever really held any kind of good intentions. As far as him never blaming Brambleclaw, I really don't think we can take him at his word there. Let's bear in mind that his instinctive reaction to the break-up is to start screaming about Brambleclaw's evil heritage and that the fox trap plan has him setting up Brambleclaw to be the fallguy. The only one who says he never blamed Brambleclaw is Ashfur himself, but his actions don't line up with that and he is also an entirely unreliable source for every reason. In any case, I am pretty sure if asked that TBC Ashfur would still give some internal justification for it. I just don't think he'll have any real good intentions and expecting that is expecting something unreasonable for him. In TPB, he is barely present. He has maybe ten lines of dialogue if that many. In TNP, he sneers about kittypets more than any other character, accuses Leafpool of conspiring with Brambleclaw, pushes for fights constantly, and is noted by characters to be frightening because of how angry and bitter he looks. I'd argue that murdering Thunderclan's leader is a pretty big helping of harming the clan. It's more accurate to say that while it wasn't his chief goal, if he could twist it into hurting Squirrelflight, he'll justify it in a heartbeat. Ashfur's actions are actually very self consistent. For instance, his mockery of Firestar is almost ripped right from TNP's dialogue. "“I’m taking out the dawn patrol,” Mousefur announced as she came up. “Do you still want us to look for Cloudtail and Brightheart?” “Not that there’s much point, if they left on purpose,” Ashfur added darkly." "“I wouldn’t put it past Cloudtail to have gone back to the Twolegs,” Mousefur growled. “With so little prey in the forest, even Twoleg food must look tempting.” “And he ate it often enough when he was an apprentice,” Ashfur put in" It's the exact same line he trots out against Firestar in GV, and it's amazing consistency by this series's standards. Any sweetness from Ashfur is entirely a function of him just not EXISTING as a character pre-Squirrelflight debacle, who barely had any scenes or dialogue. When we start getting more from him though, he rapidly heads in an ugly direction except with Squirrelflight, and even then he can't help himself from dropping smears on kittypets. Ashfur supported/defended Firestar and spoke good things about him, such as his knowledge of the territory and decisions at a Gathering, as well as Brambleclaw and his friendship w Hawkfrost in Twilight when he was dating Squirrelflight and he gave Brambleclaw a friendly nod in early TNP That only proves he's nice when he gets his way |
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 2, 2020 23:10:49 GMT -5
There's a difference between him giving self-justification and the expectation of him having good intentions(or at least good in anyone's mind besides Ashfur). He always gave self-justifications, but none of them ever really held any kind of good intentions. As far as him never blaming Brambleclaw, I really don't think we can take him at his word there. Let's bear in mind that his instinctive reaction to the break-up is to start screaming about Brambleclaw's evil heritage and that the fox trap plan has him setting up Brambleclaw to be the fallguy. The only one who says he never blamed Brambleclaw is Ashfur himself, but his actions don't line up with that and he is also an entirely unreliable source for every reason. In any case, I am pretty sure if asked that TBC Ashfur would still give some internal justification for it. I just don't think he'll have any real good intentions and expecting that is expecting something unreasonable for him. In TPB, he is barely present. He has maybe ten lines of dialogue if that many. In TNP, he sneers about kittypets more than any other character, accuses Leafpool of conspiring with Brambleclaw, pushes for fights constantly, and is noted by characters to be frightening because of how angry and bitter he looks. I'd argue that murdering Thunderclan's leader is a pretty big helping of harming the clan. It's more accurate to say that while it wasn't his chief goal, if he could twist it into hurting Squirrelflight, he'll justify it in a heartbeat. Ashfur's actions are actually very self consistent. For instance, his mockery of Firestar is almost ripped right from TNP's dialogue. "“I’m taking out the dawn patrol,” Mousefur announced as she came up. “Do you still want us to look for Cloudtail and Brightheart?” “Not that there’s much point, if they left on purpose,” Ashfur added darkly." "“I wouldn’t put it past Cloudtail to have gone back to the Twolegs,” Mousefur growled. “With so little prey in the forest, even Twoleg food must look tempting.” “And he ate it often enough when he was an apprentice,” Ashfur put in" It's the exact same line he trots out against Firestar in GV, and it's amazing consistency by this series's standards. Any sweetness from Ashfur is entirely a function of him just not EXISTING as a character pre-Squirrelflight debacle, who barely had any scenes or dialogue. When we start getting more from him though, he rapidly heads in an ugly direction except with Squirrelflight, and even then he can't help himself from dropping smears on kittypets. Ashfur supported/defended Firestar and spoke good things about him, such as his knowledge of the territory and decisions at a Gathering, as well as Brambleclaw and his friendship w Hawkfrost in Twilight when he was dating Squirrelflight and he gave Brambleclaw a friendly nod in early TNP He was respectful of Brambleclaw up until Squirrelflight left him, then suddenly he's raging out about Brambleclaw conspiring with Leafpool and Brambleclaw being inherently corrupt due to Tigerstar. Point being that Ashfur has a tendency to only talk good about people when it serves him and will insult and slander them the moment that stops. It's transactional. |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 2, 2020 23:21:20 GMT -5
Ashfur supported/defended Firestar and spoke good things about him, such as his knowledge of the territory and decisions at a Gathering, as well as Brambleclaw and his friendship w Hawkfrost in Twilight when he was dating Squirrelflight and he gave Brambleclaw a friendly nod in early TNP He was respectful of Brambleclaw up until Squirrelflight left him, then suddenly he's raging out about Brambleclaw conspiring with Leafpool and Brambleclaw being inherently corrupt due to Tigerstar. Point being that Ashfur has a tendency to only talk good about people when it serves him and will insult and slander them the moment that stops. It's transactional. I'll never understand the argument that Ashfur never had anything against Brambleclaw even though his actions clearly say otherwise, regardless if Squirrelflight was his main target or not. |
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 2, 2020 23:29:39 GMT -5
He was respectful of Brambleclaw up until Squirrelflight left him, then suddenly he's raging out about Brambleclaw conspiring with Leafpool and Brambleclaw being inherently corrupt due to Tigerstar. Point being that Ashfur has a tendency to only talk good about people when it serves him and will insult and slander them the moment that stops. It's transactional. I'll never understand the argument that Ashfur never had anything against Brambleclaw even though his actions clearly say otherwise, regardless if Squirrelflight was his main target or not. It's solely based off of the fact that Ashfur said so, nevermind that we KNOW Ashfur is an insane liar. The mistake is assuming he's a rational agent; he's not, and he hasn't been ever since the fox trap. |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 2, 2020 23:33:57 GMT -5
I don't know if that's quite accurate. Ashfur iirc had a tendency to try and justify/rationalize his own actions to paint himself as a victim who is just getting back at someone who deserved it (albeit whatever the cost). Mostly centered around Squirrelflight's rejection, of course. He villainized Squirrelflight but never blamed Bramblestar, so he had focused intent rather than just blind evilness; I could see him expanding that villification to the whole clan in recompense for villifying him in his own murder. Point being, I understand him focusing exclusively on Squirrelflight, but I think it'd equally fit his internal narrative to victimized himself further and develop personal beef with the clan(S). There's a difference between him giving self-justification and the expectation of him having good intentions(or at least good in anyone's mind besides Ashfur). He always gave self-justifications, but none of them ever really held any kind of good intentions. As far as him never blaming Brambleclaw, I really don't think we can take him at his word there. Let's bear in mind that his instinctive reaction to the break-up is to start screaming about Brambleclaw's evil heritage and that the fox trap plan has him setting up Brambleclaw to be the fallguy. The only one who says he never blamed Brambleclaw is Ashfur himself, but his actions don't line up with that and he is also an entirely unreliable source for every reason. In any case, I am pretty sure if asked that TBC Ashfur would still give some internal justification for it. I just don't think he'll have any real good intentions and expecting that is expecting something unreasonable for him. Perhaps I should have been more clear, I do not think his self-justification is the same as a good intention. I only meant that I do not see it as OOC to think there'd be an intention to hurting the clan(s) outside of getting at Squirrelflight. It's within canon behavior that that could be the only reason, but his narrative does not limit him to only that explanation. Strangely, I think Ashfur can be taken at his word there. His initial spiteful rant seemed more like blindly lashing out at his "replacement" than a real hatred for Brambleclaw. I could be wrong about that. But in his cold bitterness sustained through PO3, only Squirrelflight received acerbic comments, with no hint of animosity toward Brambleclaw. When he tries to kill the Three, he only mentions Squirrelflight's pain. Moreover, his part in Hawkfrost's plot would promote Bramble to leader--he didn't care because it was about hurting Squirrelflight. So I think his canon actions sufficiently support his words. I don't think he ever liked Bramblestar, I just don't think he was ever the object of his obsessive hatred. I don't think he really had any reason to lie, either. And I think it would be misconstruing his characterization to suggest Ashfur was just crazed or not thinking straight; the dude is pretty calculating. Twisted, deluded, yes, but not irrational. |
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