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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 1, 2020 22:00:57 GMT -5
real question is why would Tigerheartstar know anything about ashfur/squirrelflight lol
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 1, 2020 22:01:29 GMT -5
Please don't tell me They're going to change the code because they got duped by an INCEL!
I hope they don't end up changing the code, it wouldn't fit into the story at all, not with the way it's going.
Like, why would they need to change it?
Wouldn't them changing it just appease the impostor?
Ashfur clearly doesn't care for it, but in many stories, it's possible for the villain to be right in some regard, and the series has repeatedly shown how easy it is for the code to be disregarded and manipulated. And in an arc called The Broken Code and with cats questioning StarClan and Clan life, I'd be more surprised if there weren't at least amendments made so something like a leader abusing their power doesn't happen again. |
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Post by wftl1980 on Sept 1, 2020 22:06:09 GMT -5
Firestar being pissed and resentful about Ashfur was great lol. Like it read like he was holding himself back from ranting. I mean....Ashfur DID partake in the plot to kill him And then tried to kill his three grandkits. Since he's resentful though, I don't see how Hollyleaf wasn't Maybe she felt that she’d settled the score with him? |
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Sept 1, 2020 22:06:26 GMT -5
Please don't tell me They're going to change the code because they got duped by an INCEL!
I hope they don't end up changing the code, it wouldn't fit into the story at all, not with the way it's going.
Like, why would they need to change it?
Wouldn't them changing it just appease the impostor?
Have u not seen the articles the Warrior Cats website has been putting up, some of which tell of changes that the Clans will experience and how it is vital? Besides, this is called "The Broken Code", so how could the codes not be changed/altered to mend it? Why else would it be called that? Don't you think the Clans should now question and change their "Leaders word is law" code or "Not taking mates from another Clan"? The end of VOS even has Tigerstar suggesting the code should be changed. All these thing should confirm for you it'll happen. Why would they need to change it? By abusing the code, the imposter is showing just how flawed the warrior code is, causing rifts between and within Clans. It is thanks to the warrior code the imposter is able to do all this If the imposter was still in power, and they removed the leaders word is law rule, then no cat would listen to the imposter. Also, they could change the rules he is bending in a way that no matter how much he tries to bend the new rule, it will still be in favor of the Clans, so no, changing it would make things worse for him |
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Genderfluid
Cloud
resident Tribe of Rushing Water enthusiast
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Post by Cloud on Sept 1, 2020 22:10:35 GMT -5
real question is why would Tigerheartstar know anything about ashfur/squirrelflight lol My guess is that he probably overheard some gossip while he was there briefly in Long Shadows. Apprentices love to chatter and rumors fly all the time. |
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Sept 1, 2020 22:13:47 GMT -5
real question is why would Tigerheartstar know anything about ashfur/squirrelflight lol My guess is that he probably overheard some gossip while he was there briefly in Long Shadows. Apprentices love to chatter and rumors fly all the time. Mousefur also spread info about his crimes idky, making her own Clan look bad for having had a traitorous warrior, dunno why she'd do that |
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 1, 2020 22:21:32 GMT -5
real question is why would Tigerheartstar know anything about ashfur/squirrelflight lol He did temporarily have residence in Thunderclan during the Sol fiasco |
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Post by highprince on Sept 1, 2020 22:24:42 GMT -5
Huh, I wonder if the punishments for code-breaking was originally StarClan's idea, considering Tallstar's comment in the prologue and the fact that they needed to send a cat down. Ashfur being sent down isn't incredibly shocking, either - he seemingly had everyone convinced that he was okay enough to send to StarClan, and as far as they're all concerned, StarClan cats can't be evil. It would be a chance to show that he was actually good.
The other clans believing the lie about Ashfur attacking Hollyleaf also makes complete sense. There's no way ThunderClan would admit to Hollyleaf being a murderer (and likely causing further backlash against half-clan cats after her outburst) when Ashfur is dead and can't defend himself
EDIT: One think I don't like is "Ashfur loves Squirrelflight enough to endanger all the clans" and how completely Squirrel-centric it makes the issue. Villains only caring about one character in stories with more than one main character has always annoyed me, especially with how Mary Sue-ish it makes Squilf look here. |
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Post by wftl1980 on Sept 1, 2020 23:12:14 GMT -5
My guess is that he probably overheard some gossip while he was there briefly in Long Shadows. Apprentices love to chatter and rumors fly all the time. Mousefur also spread info about his crimes idky, making her own Clan look bad for having had a traitorous warrior, dunno why she'd do that For the sake of having the juiciest bit of gossip? |
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 1, 2020 23:27:50 GMT -5
Huh, I wonder if the punishments for code-breaking was originally StarClan's idea, considering Tallstar's comment in the prologue and the fact that they needed to send a cat down. Ashfur being sent down isn't incredibly shocking, either - he seemingly had everyone convinced that he was okay enough to send to StarClan, and as far as they're all concerned, StarClan cats can't be evil. It would be a chance to show that he was actually good.
The other clans believing the lie about Ashfur attacking Hollyleaf also makes complete sense. There's no way ThunderClan would admit to Hollyleaf being a murderer (and likely causing further backlash against half-clan cats after her outburst) when Ashfur is dead and can't defend himself
EDIT: One think I don't like is "Ashfur loves Squirrelflight enough to endanger all the clans" and how completely Squirrel-centric it makes the issue. Villains only caring about one character in stories with more than one main character has always annoyed me, especially with how Mary Sue-ish it makes Squilf look here. Squirrelflight's a Mary Sue in the same arc where she got yeeted out of her own den and is currently getting zero respect from any cat in Thunderclan as leader? Honestly, at this point the term Mary Sue seems to just mean "character I dislike" rather than mean anything in particular. Being the main target of a lunatic doesn't make her a Mary Sue. |
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Post by highprince on Sept 1, 2020 23:43:33 GMT -5
Huh, I wonder if the punishments for code-breaking was originally StarClan's idea, considering Tallstar's comment in the prologue and the fact that they needed to send a cat down. Ashfur being sent down isn't incredibly shocking, either - he seemingly had everyone convinced that he was okay enough to send to StarClan, and as far as they're all concerned, StarClan cats can't be evil. It would be a chance to show that he was actually good.
The other clans believing the lie about Ashfur attacking Hollyleaf also makes complete sense. There's no way ThunderClan would admit to Hollyleaf being a murderer (and likely causing further backlash against half-clan cats after her outburst) when Ashfur is dead and can't defend himself
EDIT: One think I don't like is "Ashfur loves Squirrelflight enough to endanger all the clans" and how completely Squirrel-centric it makes the issue. Villains only caring about one character in stories with more than one main character has always annoyed me, especially with how Mary Sue-ish it makes Squilf look here. Squirrelflight's a Mary Sue in the same arc where she got yeeted out of her own den and is currently getting zero respect from any cat in Thunderclan as leader? Honestly, at this point the term Mary Sue seems to just mean "character I dislike" rather than mean anything in particular. Being the main target of a lunatic doesn't make her a Mary Sue. I didn't say she was a Mary Sue. I said she looked Mary Sue-ish. In this one preview. "Oh no, everyone's in danger because this guy loved me so much that he came back to earth and started terrorizing everyone! I'm the only one that can fix this!" Is how it comes across in sample, imo. |
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 1, 2020 23:59:54 GMT -5
Squirrelflight's a Mary Sue in the same arc where she got yeeted out of her own den and is currently getting zero respect from any cat in Thunderclan as leader? Honestly, at this point the term Mary Sue seems to just mean "character I dislike" rather than mean anything in particular. Being the main target of a lunatic doesn't make her a Mary Sue. I didn't say she was a Mary Sue. I said she looked Mary Sue-ish. In this one preview. "Oh no, everyone's in danger because this guy loved me so much that he came back to earth and started terrorizing everyone! I'm the only one that can fix this!" Is how it comes across in sample, imo. None of that is Mary Sue esque. There's no lack of flaws, there's no being the center of everyone's attention, absolutely no traits unless one is able to construe her informing the clans of Ashfur targeting her as being the center of attention. But even this doesn't work because even if Squirrelflight is attempting that she clearly isn't that in the eyes of the other clans. |
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Post by Mistybreeze on Sept 2, 2020 0:02:18 GMT -5
Huh, I wonder if the punishments for code-breaking was originally StarClan's idea, considering Tallstar's comment in the prologue and the fact that they needed to send a cat down. Ashfur being sent down isn't incredibly shocking, either - he seemingly had everyone convinced that he was okay enough to send to StarClan, and as far as they're all concerned, StarClan cats can't be evil. It would be a chance to show that he was actually good.
The other clans believing the lie about Ashfur attacking Hollyleaf also makes complete sense. There's no way ThunderClan would admit to Hollyleaf being a murderer (and likely causing further backlash against half-clan cats after her outburst) when Ashfur is dead and can't defend himself
EDIT: One think I don't like is "Ashfur loves Squirrelflight enough to endanger all the clans" and how completely Squirrel-centric it makes the issue. Villains only caring about one character in stories with more than one main character has always annoyed me, especially with how Mary Sue-ish it makes Squilf look here. Squirrelflight's a Mary Sue in the same arc where she got yeeted out of her own den and is currently getting zero respect from any cat in Thunderclan as leader? Honestly, at this point the term Mary Sue seems to just mean "character I dislike" rather than mean anything in particular. Being the main target of a lunatic doesn't make her a Mary Sue. Exactly. For some reason people on here have to justify their dislike/hatred for a character rather than admit that they simply don't like them. Mary Sue is just the easiest accusation to hurl since it is somewhat subjective. |
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Post by Mistybreeze on Sept 2, 2020 0:11:02 GMT -5
Anyways, back on topic. StarClan screwing up makes way more sense than Ashfur sneaking out on his own.
The question remains as to how the "shadow" over the Clans came to be. Perhaps other members of StarClan are involved? Maybe even the DF? Actually, we don't actually know for sure that the DF is really emptying out as stated in SH. We're just told that, but never actually see it.
I'm not too sure why people are surprised that the other Clans heard about the Ashfur situation in some form. The cats gossip like teenage girls, of course TC's biggest scandal of the last decade is going to get out. |
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Post by Skypaw13 on Sept 2, 2020 0:15:02 GMT -5
Squirrelflight's a Mary Sue in the same arc where she got yeeted out of her own den and is currently getting zero respect from any cat in Thunderclan as leader? Honestly, at this point the term Mary Sue seems to just mean "character I dislike" rather than mean anything in particular. Being the main target of a lunatic doesn't make her a Mary Sue. Exactly. For some reason people on here have to justify their dislike/hatred for a character rather than admit that they simply don't like them. Mary Sue is just the easiest accusation to hurl since it is somewhat subjective. Most people don't just hate a character for no reason, and I don't think highprince even hates Squilf, just pointing out that the amount of narrative attention she's getting is weird (which people on here have pointed out since the VoS sample was released ages ago). It's perfectly valid to justify your dislike of a character (or in this case, of the writing). |
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Post by highprince on Sept 2, 2020 0:16:33 GMT -5
I didn't say she was a Mary Sue. I said she looked Mary Sue-ish. In this one preview. "Oh no, everyone's in danger because this guy loved me so much that he came back to earth and started terrorizing everyone! I'm the only one that can fix this!" Is how it comes across in sample, imo. None of that is Mary Sue esque. There's no lack of flaws, there's no being the center of everyone's attention, absolutely no traits unless one is able to construe her informing the clans of Ashfur targeting her as being the center of attention. But even this doesn't work because even if Squirrelflight is attempting that she clearly isn't that in the eyes of the other clans. At least 1/2 of the entire sample is "All our problems are caused by Squirrelflight's ex, his defining characteristic is being Squirrelflight's ex and trying to murder Hollyleaf I guess, he's literally so obsessed with Squirrelflight that he would destroy the entire clans just to hurt her for some reason." I wouldn't have any issue with this if Squirrelflight was the main character of this arc, or at least if the PoV was from the perspective of someone that Ashfur was after (I still think that Alderheart and Sparkpelt would've been a million times better as PoVs, but that's neither here nor there). Maybe the narrative will later bring up the fact that he's obsessed with the code because he was turned into the perpetrator of his own murder, in which he'd been trying to reveal codebreaking himself, which would be a better twist than "He's still just obsessed with Squirrelflight." From this sample, Ashfur has come down to the clans and become a villain for the sole reason that he loves Squirrelflight. This is bad when our main character is not Squirrelflight. This puts Squirrelflight square into the center of attention as the only one that Ashfur actually gives a shit about. |
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Post by highprince on Sept 2, 2020 0:25:01 GMT -5
"Maybe the narrative will later bring up the fact that he's obsessed with the code because he was turned into the perpetrator of his own murder, in which he'd been trying to reveal codebreaking himself,"
Gonna add onto this a little bit, because I want to elaborate and it's not super relevant to my last post. I'd love if Ashfur was actually over Squirrelflight and was doing this to hurt Bramblestar and his loved ones, which would also tie that motive into the persecution of the codebreakers. The two don't really tie together for me if he's just obsessed with Squirrelflight, and the codebreaking thing just being used as a cover to be evil would be...disappointing.
Considering how predictable this arc has been (The impostor is Ashfur and he's targeting Squirrelflight and her kin), I'm really hoping we get some sort of twist on his identity/motivation. The 'foreshadowing' was so heavy-handed that I can't believe that it's not a red herring of any sort.
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Post by ~Ƈαммι-`ღ´- on Sept 2, 2020 7:47:46 GMT -5
Everyone magically knowing about the Assfur drama and agreeing he’s terrible lowers my hopes for the this installment tbh
As if Graystripe’s Vow demonizing him wasn’t enough, now even TC themselves are willing to let rumors like that about one of their own past warriors to spread around DX |
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Post by Haze on Sept 2, 2020 10:03:15 GMT -5
Still reading the comments, but damn Smokehaze is dead and I am crying rivers, Woodpaw new mentor is Leaftail now
Leaftail was one of the most vocal cats against Breezepelt in CT and now is the mentor of one of his daughters, that is amusing, it's his 3rd apprentice btw.
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Post by jayfeather1234 on Sept 2, 2020 10:33:05 GMT -5
What if Ashfur was sent by Starclan to punish the code breakers (which is exactly what he was doing), except he decided to take advantage of the situation and get back at Squirrelflight in addition to punishing the code breakers for Starclan.
It would put a spin on this since it would make Ashfur a major antagonist, yet not the main antagonist. It would be a surprise if this was the case as it would mean that Starclan themselves are the main antagonists.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 11:16:40 GMT -5
What if Ashfur was sent by Starclan to punish the code breakers (which is exactly what he was doing), except he decided to take advantage of the situation and get back at Squirrelflight in addition to punishing the code breakers for Starclan. It would put a spin on this since it would make Ashfur a major antagonist, yet not the main antagonist. It would be a surprise if this was the case as it would mean that Starclan themselves are the main antagonists. I would not be surprised, but why would StarClan send a code breaker to punish code breakers? Then again, it's StarClan, idk why I'm even questioning it lol |
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 2, 2020 11:46:55 GMT -5
What if Ashfur was sent by Starclan to punish the code breakers (which is exactly what he was doing), except he decided to take advantage of the situation and get back at Squirrelflight in addition to punishing the code breakers for Starclan. It would put a spin on this since it would make Ashfur a major antagonist, yet not the main antagonist. It would be a surprise if this was the case as it would mean that Starclan themselves are the main antagonists. I would not be surprised, but why would StarClan send a code breaker to punish code breakers? Then again, it's StarClan, idk why I'm even questioning it lol Remember, they forgave Ashfur because "he loved too much" and then turned around a seriously contemplated sending LEAFPOOL to the DF. Starclan is dumb |
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Sept 2, 2020 11:58:21 GMT -5
The problem I have with characters thinking the imposter is working alone is that it’s already proven that the imposter is not. He was talking with someone else in the last book (I believe Bristlefrost overheard), and is implied to have the power to control other spirits somehow. So it’s clear he isn’t working alone. Furthermore, why would Starclan punish codebreakers? Some of the most honorable and influential members were codebreakers (Firestar, Bluestar, Crookedstar, Leafpool, Yellowfang, Hollyleaf, Blackstar, possibly even Tallstar). Why would they only be strict about enforcing it now? The only guess I can think of is that it’s now being broken on a wide scale instead of a single member or incident, but still doesn’t make much sense
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Sept 2, 2020 12:00:29 GMT -5
The problem I have with characters thinking the imposter is working alone is that it’s already proven that the imposter is not. He was talking with someone else in the last book (I believe Bristlefrost overheard), and is implied to have the power to control other spirits somehow. So it’s clear he isn’t working alone. Furthermore, why would Starclan punish codebreakers? Some of the most honorable and influential members were codebreakers (Firestar, Bluestar, Crookedstar, Leafpool, Yellowfang, Hollyleaf, Blackstar, possibly even Tallstar). Why would they only be strict about enforcing it now? The only guess I can think of is that it’s now being broken on a wide scale instead of a single member or incident, but s till doesn’t make much sense I mean, Ashfur’s the only mastermind, now he’s bending other cats to his will to help him |
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Post by Sundance on Sept 2, 2020 12:02:18 GMT -5
Everyone magically knowing about the Assfur drama and agreeing he’s terrible lowers my hopes for the this installment tbh
As if Graystripe’s Vow demonizing him wasn’t enough, now even TC themselves are willing to let rumors like that about one of their own past warriors to spread around DX I know right?? I was excited by the prospect of Ashfur being the antagonist for this arc, but apprehensive over the thought that instead of making him into a three-dimensional villain who commits immoral acts but has some marginally good intentions/heartfelt relationships, that they were going to practically retcon him into your typical mustache-twirling, mad-cackling evil villain from the get go. :-P Don't get me wrong, I still love most of his character arc in TBC, but I'm bummed that he was weirdly demonized in Graystripe's Vow (in part because I think it would have been sooooo much more satisfying to show him as a sweet, caring tom back in the day ... further emphasizing his dramatic fall from grace) and that Thornclaw didn't seem shocked in the least that Ashfur was the Imposter when they used to be best bros. :-P |
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Post by The One and Only Moongaze on Sept 2, 2020 12:06:13 GMT -5
Pretty soon somebody will get the book early
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2020 12:28:11 GMT -5
I would not be surprised, but why would StarClan send a code breaker to punish code breakers? Then again, it's StarClan, idk why I'm even questioning it lol Remember, they forgave Ashfur because "he loved too much" and then turned around a seriously contemplated sending LEAFPOOL to the DF. Starclan is dumb Leafpool, eh, but Squirrelflight? They're the ones who told her to cover for Leafpool |
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Post by vectoring34 on Sept 2, 2020 12:52:11 GMT -5
Everyone magically knowing about the Assfur drama and agreeing he’s terrible lowers my hopes for the this installment tbh
As if Graystripe’s Vow demonizing him wasn’t enough, now even TC themselves are willing to let rumors like that about one of their own past warriors to spread around DX I know right?? I was excited by the prospect of Ashfur being the antagonist for this arc, but apprehensive over the thought that instead of making him into a three-dimensional villain who commits immoral acts but has some marginally good intentions/heartfelt relationships, that they were going to practically retcon him into your typical mustache-twirling, mad-cackling evil villain from the get go. :-P Don't get me wrong, I still love most of his character arc in TBC, but I'm bummed that he was weirdly demonized in Graystripe's Vow (in part because I think it would have been sooooo much more satisfying to show him as a sweet, caring tom back in the day ... further emphasizing his dramatic fall from grace) and that Thornclaw didn't seem shocked in the least that Ashfur was the Imposter when they used to be best bros. :-P Why would you expect that from Ashfur? His entire villainous history has been nothing but spiteful cruelty for its own sake. It'd be like expecting an arc with Thistleclaw where he suddenly doesn't want to be deputy anymore, or one with Scourge where he doesn't care about revenge on Tigerstar. Ashfur being horrible without a good reason is 100% in-character, he never cared about having good intentions. |
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Post by Jaysnow on Sept 2, 2020 12:55:45 GMT -5
Pretty soon somebody will get the book early If "pretty soon" means next month. It's September, book isn't out till November. |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 2, 2020 13:03:55 GMT -5
I know right?? I was excited by the prospect of Ashfur being the antagonist for this arc, but apprehensive over the thought that instead of making him into a three-dimensional villain who commits immoral acts but has some marginally good intentions/heartfelt relationships, that they were going to practically retcon him into your typical mustache-twirling, mad-cackling evil villain from the get go. :-P Don't get me wrong, I still love most of his character arc in TBC, but I'm bummed that he was weirdly demonized in Graystripe's Vow (in part because I think it would have been sooooo much more satisfying to show him as a sweet, caring tom back in the day ... further emphasizing his dramatic fall from grace) and that Thornclaw didn't seem shocked in the least that Ashfur was the Imposter when they used to be best bros. :-P Why would you expect that from Ashfur? His entire villainous history has been nothing but spiteful cruelty for its own sake. It'd be like expecting an arc with Thistleclaw where he suddenly doesn't want to be deputy anymore, or one with Scourge where he doesn't care about revenge on Tigerstar. Ashfur being horrible without a good reason is 100% in-character, he never cared about having good intentions. I don't know if that's quite accurate. Ashfur iirc had a tendency to try and justify/rationalize his own actions to paint himself as a victim who is just getting back at someone who deserved it (albeit whatever the cost). Mostly centered around Squirrelflight's rejection, of course. He villainized Squirrelflight but never blamed Bramblestar, so he had focused intent rather than just blind evilness; I could see him expanding that villification to the whole clan in recompense for villifying him in his own murder. Point being, I understand him focusing exclusively on Squirrelflight, but I think it'd equally fit his internal narrative to victimized himself further and develop personal beef with the clan(S). |
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