Pansexual
pepperfrost
I'M BACK BUT REPLIES VERY LATE, SCHOOL STARTED.
Pronouns: she/her, they/them
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Post by pepperfrost on Jul 9, 2024 23:44:52 GMT -5
It won't get better. It's hard to fact check everything that you talk about, especially since most people don't have the books on hand. Even if you do, details still get lost, and eventually you end up just lying about what's in the books. I know I've done it before. I honestly can't blame people for misremembering in a series as large as Warriors, but it does lead to a lot of misinformation. Yeah, not gonna lie, I do feel like I did that in this discussion- Considering the backlash I got during it I feel like I did misinterpret a lot of what was said and done in the books. Sorry about that. That being said though, I don't really think Bumblestripe is that bad now, but I still don't really like the way the relationship was. :/ They did totally assassinate his character in that saga though, that I will say, poor bumble.
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Post by vixenheart on Jul 10, 2024 0:48:46 GMT -5
Honestly, I don’t hate him. I kind of feel bad for him. He was definitely written to make fans choose Tigerheart, but I feel like that’s just sad. I think he deserved better. Yes, I definitely think the kit scene was just weird, but he thought Dovewing’s intentions were to be his mate. It wasn’t fair of Dovewing to lead him on when she was still seeing Tigerheart. Because of her guilt in seeing Tigerheart, she was just trying to be loyal to her clan and in doing that she used Bumblestripe. I think he could’ve had a much better character arc if he hadn’t been made worse just for Tigerheart. He’s not one of my favorites, but I like him.
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Post by iceheart on Jul 10, 2024 11:24:14 GMT -5
I’ve done some thinking and I wanted to add more to my original post with some more substance.
I’m tired of all the hate Bumblestripe gets. He isn’t Ashfur 2.0, no matter how much the fandom makes him out to be. He genuinely cared about Dovewing - more than she did about him, I might add. We see this in The Forgotten Warrior, Dovewing’s Silence, and even Bramblestar’s Storm. Dovewing seems to return these feelings… until she decides Tigerheart is more handsome than Bumblestripe. Bumblestripe is her “fall to” guy, someone she can be with if things with Tigerheart didn’t work. She insults and shames Bumblestripe simply because he’s not Tigerheart despite how many times he’s tried to care for her (and, might I add, Dovewing pressured Tigerheart for kids once when he was uncomfortable with it, but won’t get any criticism from the fandom). He cares about her when he comforts her in Dovewing’s Silence, when he confesses his worries about her in Bramblestar’s Storm, when he spends time with her in The Forgotten Warrior. And he still does, even after she treats him terribly! Did he bring up a terrible time to have kids? Yes. Is it wrong that he wanted to reconcile their relationship when he saw how short life was? No. Did he let her go after she said no to him in Shattered Sky? Yes. He didn’t pursue her again and didn’t become an Ashfur 2.0 when Dovewing, once more, thinks about how much handsome Tigerheart is compared to Bumblestripe and goes with him again despite him saying something along the same lines.
I honestly think him trying to be Ashfur’s deputy is another attempt by the writing team to make him look bad. Look, Bumblestripe is trying to be the imposter’s deputy, look how evil he is! He was supposed to be with Dovewing - that’s what TUG says, what Dovewing’s Silence says. When the new editing team began to take over (we see signs of this in Bramblestar’s Storm), that’s when they decided they wanted Tigerheart and Dovewing back together so they gradually started foreshadowing them breaking up. So, even though Bumblestripe genuinely cares about her in BS, they end up breaking up at the end of the book and of course Dovewing fights side by side with Tigerheart. Bumblestripe has always been a good character with good intentions - he just suffers from the same “let’s tear everyone down to make Tigerheart look like Jesus” disease that spawns the books.
tl;dr Bumblestripe deserved better
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Post by Katanaheart on Jul 10, 2024 12:25:17 GMT -5
I’ve done some thinking and I wanted to add more to my original post with some more substance. I’m tired of all the hate Bumblestripe gets. He isn’t Ashfur 2.0, no matter how much the fandom makes him out to be. He genuinely cared about Dovewing - more than she did about him, I might add. We see this in The Forgotten Warrior, Dovewing’s Silence, and even Bramblestar’s Storm. Dovewing seems to return these feelings… until she decides Tigerheart is more handsome than Bumblestripe. Bumblestripe is her “fall to” guy, someone she can be with if things with Tigerheart didn’t work. She insults and shames Bumblestripe simply because he’s not Tigerheart despite how many times he’s tried to care for her (and, might I add, Dovewing pressured Tigerheart for kids once when he was uncomfortable with it, but won’t get any criticism from the fandom). He cares about her when he comforts her in Dovewing’s Silence, when he confesses his worries about her in Bramblestar’s Storm, when he spends time with her in The Forgotten Warrior. And he still does, even after she treats him terribly! Did he bring up a terrible time to have kids? Yes. Is it wrong that he wanted to reconcile their relationship when he saw how short life was? No. Did he let her go after she said no to him in Shattered Sky? Yes. He didn’t pursue her again and didn’t become an Ashfur 2.0 when Dovewing, once more, thinks about how much handsome Tigerheart is compared to Bumblestripe and goes with him again despite him saying something along the same lines. I honestly think him trying to be Ashfur’s deputy is another attempt by the writing team to make him look bad. Look, Bumblestripe is trying to be the imposter’s deputy, look how evil he is! He was supposed to be with Dovewing - that’s what TUG says, what Dovewing’s Silence says. When the new editing team began to take over (we see signs of this in Bramblestar’s Storm), that’s when they decided they wanted Tigerheart and Dovewing back together so they gradually started foreshadowing them breaking up. So, even though Bumblestripe genuinely cares about her in BS, they end up breaking up at the end of the book and of course Dovewing fights side by side with Tigerheart. Bumblestripe has always been a good character with good intentions - he just suffers from the same “let’s tear everyone down to make Tigerheart look like Jesus” disease that spawns the books. tl;dr Bumblestripe deserved better I wouldn’t consider Bumblestripe desiring to be deputy was a bad thing nor was it some odd attempt to make Dovewing’s choice of Tigerheart more preferable. DoveTiger was certainly the farthest thing from my mind when he and Berrynose were clamoring for the deputy position. It shows Bumblestripe moved on from Dovewing and decided the career option was better than any romantic pursuit, considering he has never taken another romantic interest sans Dovewing. Bumblestripe was the clear and obvious choice for Ashfur’s deputy considering he actually had mentored several apprentices compared to the zero, Berrynose held for his entire life. Yet Berrynose proved himself to be more the lackey and Ashfur played his emotional attachments to his former mentor like a fiddle. Bumblestripe, I feel, would have been the better option as his death provides so much more drama and precedence than Berrynose. (Which Berrynose could have had this too, albeit to a slightly lesser degree, considering he was a wandering, controlled, ghost with his half-sister, Rosepetal, that isn’t touched upon.) But Graystripe having to deal with his only son of his second litter, now in StarClan while also mid-dying, Bumblestripe reuniting with Millie and Briarlight, etc. All that good and spicy potential, just wasted considering the only scenes I can think of Bumblestripe having in the following series is him being understandably hostile to Dovewing and Nightheart. (Which I entirely agree with said hostilities as both deserved to have their ears shredded for trespassing on both SkyClan and ThunderClan territories.) Berrynose could have easily served Bumblestripe’s role in ASC, considering how obnoxious he is and he’d likely feel betrayed as well. (I can’t account for any differences his presence wouod have made in Daisy’s Kin as I have not read her novella. Nor have I read TUG yet, I’m just surprised Bumblestripe even got an entry.)
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Post by iceheart on Jul 11, 2024 0:12:24 GMT -5
I’ve done some thinking and I wanted to add more to my original post with some more substance. I’m tired of all the hate Bumblestripe gets. He isn’t Ashfur 2.0, no matter how much the fandom makes him out to be. He genuinely cared about Dovewing - more than she did about him, I might add. We see this in The Forgotten Warrior, Dovewing’s Silence, and even Bramblestar’s Storm. Dovewing seems to return these feelings… until she decides Tigerheart is more handsome than Bumblestripe. Bumblestripe is her “fall to” guy, someone she can be with if things with Tigerheart didn’t work. She insults and shames Bumblestripe simply because he’s not Tigerheart despite how many times he’s tried to care for her (and, might I add, Dovewing pressured Tigerheart for kids once when he was uncomfortable with it, but won’t get any criticism from the fandom). He cares about her when he comforts her in Dovewing’s Silence, when he confesses his worries about her in Bramblestar’s Storm, when he spends time with her in The Forgotten Warrior. And he still does, even after she treats him terribly! Did he bring up a terrible time to have kids? Yes. Is it wrong that he wanted to reconcile their relationship when he saw how short life was? No. Did he let her go after she said no to him in Shattered Sky? Yes. He didn’t pursue her again and didn’t become an Ashfur 2.0 when Dovewing, once more, thinks about how much handsome Tigerheart is compared to Bumblestripe and goes with him again despite him saying something along the same lines. I honestly think him trying to be Ashfur’s deputy is another attempt by the writing team to make him look bad. Look, Bumblestripe is trying to be the imposter’s deputy, look how evil he is! He was supposed to be with Dovewing - that’s what TUG says, what Dovewing’s Silence says. When the new editing team began to take over (we see signs of this in Bramblestar’s Storm), that’s when they decided they wanted Tigerheart and Dovewing back together so they gradually started foreshadowing them breaking up. So, even though Bumblestripe genuinely cares about her in BS, they end up breaking up at the end of the book and of course Dovewing fights side by side with Tigerheart. Bumblestripe has always been a good character with good intentions - he just suffers from the same “let’s tear everyone down to make Tigerheart look like Jesus” disease that spawns the books. tl;dr Bumblestripe deserved better I wouldn’t consider Bumblestripe desiring to be deputy was a bad thing nor was it some odd attempt to make Dovewing’s choice of Tigerheart more preferable. DoveTiger was certainly the farthest thing from my mind when he and Berrynose were clamoring for the deputy position. It shows Bumblestripe moved on from Dovewing and decided the career option was better than any romantic pursuit, considering he has never taken another romantic interest sans Dovewing. Bumblestripe was the clear and obvious choice for Ashfur’s deputy considering he actually had mentored several apprentices compared to the zero, Berrynose held for his entire life. Yet Berrynose proved himself to be more the lackey and Ashfur played his emotional attachments to his former mentor like a fiddle. Bumblestripe, I feel, would have been the better option as his death provides so much more drama and precedence than Berrynose. (Which Berrynose could have had this too, albeit to a slightly lesser degree, considering he was a wandering, controlled, ghost with his half-sister, Rosepetal, that isn’t touched upon.) But Graystripe having to deal with his only son of his second litter, now in StarClan while also mid-dying, Bumblestripe reuniting with Millie and Briarlight, etc. All that good and spicy potential, just wasted considering the only scenes I can think of Bumblestripe having in the following series is him being understandably hostile to Dovewing and Nightheart. (Which I entirely agree with said hostilities as both deserved to have their ears shredded for trespassing on both SkyClan and ThunderClan territories.) Berrynose could have easily served Bumblestripe’s role in ASC, considering how obnoxious he is and he’d likely feel betrayed as well. (I can’t account for any differences his presence wouod have made in Daisy’s Kin as I have not read her novella. Nor have I read TUG yet, I’m just surprised Bumblestripe even got an entry.) Bumblestripe didn't have his own entry in TUG, he was just mentioned on Dovewing's page. Also, what do you mean Bumblestripe was the clear and obvious choice? Bumblestripe was a kit when Ashfur was alive. He didn't know him, while in the mean time Ashfur was seen helping train Berrynose, and it made sense because he was holding onto Bramblestar's persona, and Berrynose was Bramblestar's apprentice. I'm just saying that there was absolutely no reason for him to take on this "oh please make me your deputy obviously fake Bramblestar!" in TBC. There's no foreshadowing leading up to it, it's not like Bumblestripe has ever wanted to be deputy before or has made himself known to Bramblestar. It's just another excuse for us to hate him again.
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Post by Katanaheart on Jul 11, 2024 1:25:25 GMT -5
I wouldn’t consider Bumblestripe desiring to be deputy was a bad thing nor was it some odd attempt to make Dovewing’s choice of Tigerheart more preferable. DoveTiger was certainly the farthest thing from my mind when he and Berrynose were clamoring for the deputy position. It shows Bumblestripe moved on from Dovewing and decided the career option was better than any romantic pursuit, considering he has never taken another romantic interest sans Dovewing. Bumblestripe was the clear and obvious choice for Ashfur’s deputy considering he actually had mentored several apprentices compared to the zero, Berrynose held for his entire life. Yet Berrynose proved himself to be more the lackey and Ashfur played his emotional attachments to his former mentor like a fiddle. Bumblestripe, I feel, would have been the better option as his death provides so much more drama and precedence than Berrynose. (Which Berrynose could have had this too, albeit to a slightly lesser degree, considering he was a wandering, controlled, ghost with his half-sister, Rosepetal, that isn’t touched upon.) But Graystripe having to deal with his only son of his second litter, now in StarClan while also mid-dying, Bumblestripe reuniting with Millie and Briarlight, etc. All that good and spicy potential, just wasted considering the only scenes I can think of Bumblestripe having in the following series is him being understandably hostile to Dovewing and Nightheart. (Which I entirely agree with said hostilities as both deserved to have their ears shredded for trespassing on both SkyClan and ThunderClan territories.) Berrynose could have easily served Bumblestripe’s role in ASC, considering how obnoxious he is and he’d likely feel betrayed as well. (I can’t account for any differences his presence wouod have made in Daisy’s Kin as I have not read her novella. Nor have I read TUG yet, I’m just surprised Bumblestripe even got an entry.) Bumblestripe didn't have his own entry in TUG, he was just mentioned on Dovewing's page. Also, what do you mean Bumblestripe was the clear and obvious choice? Bumblestripe was a kit when Ashfur was alive. He didn't know him, while in the mean time Ashfur was seen helping train Berrynose, and it made sense because he was holding onto Bramblestar's persona, and Berrynose was Bramblestar's apprentice. I'm just saying that there was absolutely no reason for him to take on this "oh please make me your deputy obviously fake Bramblestar!" in TBC. There's no foreshadowing leading up to it, it's not like Bumblestripe has ever wanted to be deputy before or has made himself known to Bramblestar. It's just another excuse for us to hate him again. The warrior code itself makes Bumblestripe the clear and obvious choice, especially in comparison to Berrynose. A cat cannot be made deputy without having mentored at least one apprentice. Bumblestripe had mentored a total of three apprentices by this point, a very lofty number, especially in comparison to Berrynose’s total of zero. Ashfur preached about the code very early on in his time in Bramblestar’s body yet he fumbles by picking a guy who is actively breaking the warrior code simply by being in the deputy position, with him actively breaking it in turn by picking someone that has zero mentorship training. The only other awful choice he could have picked is another tom with zero apprentices, his own apprentice, Birchfall. I also don’t really get your argument of “no foreshadowing leading up to it.” Since the deputy position was never much in question as long as Squirrelflight was alive so it’s not like any cat could have voiced some form of opinion for eventual deputyship when both leader and deputy had not been in question previously. (I cannot recall if the Clan had full knowledge of Bramblestar’s consideration of Squirrelflight’s demotion in SQH, so that’s the one opportunity something could have been foreshadowed too as deputyship was very briefly in question.) The deputy position suddenly opening up and Bumblestripe choosing the advancement route to give himself more purpose the moment it opens, I can certainly see. If it was some attempt to make Bumblestripe look bad, Nightheart would have made some mention or comparison to it in his interactions with Dovewing, considering he had also been present for Ashfur’s takeover. Plus with the lives of his siblings, Bumblestripe does not have a lot going for him: Briarlight. who he had tried to assist had been attacked by a dog while under his watch. She also later dies sometime later. His mother is dead. His remaining sister is living his dream of having kits and a family with a mate she loves. (Additional bonus hurt for also having grandkids soon after the arc is over.) Add onto the bonus hurt now that I think about it, his last apprentice was Shellfur. His nephew, his sister’s kit who then goes onto get his own mate that was even from another Clan, yet they’re living together in ThunderClan. All Bumblestripe has is that he’s a good mentor, the one criteria you need to be deputy. He hasn’t been with any other she-cat since Dovewing so his romantic prospects either. Sister living his dream, mom and other sister dead. Bumblestripe is likely also aware his dad was deputy at one point and threw himself at the opportunity when it finally arose. It also requires some foresight to just make Bumblestripe seem like the worst option for a weird beating of the DoveTiger horse by the editors that I don’t trust then to have said ability to do so, especially since it was not commented on in relation to Dovewing and Tigerstar II in either TBC or ASC, seems even further unlikely. Like if Bumblestripe had been consistently chewed out in those arcs for clamoring to Ashfur, I’d be more inclined to agree that he was a scapegoat to look like a worse character. But he was never punished for his actions that I can recall, let alone chewed out by any character. (Which Nightheart certainly would have done considering its Nightheart, who had ample time to do so and didn’t.) Also briefly cycling back to Berrynose, Bramblestar would have not chosen Berrynose as a deputy option. The latter had no apprentices and Bramblestar and Firestar likely never saw deputy potential in Berrynose due to him never receiving an apprentice throughout multiple arcs. If Ashfur hadn’t been blinded by his desires to smack around the emotional connections Berrynose had with Bramblestar, he could have even offered up a promise to train a future kit or even stripped one of the current cats of their apprentice and given them to Berrynose. (A very cool premise that got thrown out the window, there was room for finagling with the latter option and Ashfur again drops the ball with the poorer option from a political and appearance standpoint when Bumblestripe was the clearer choice. Would have also made some nice parallels back to Firestar promising Berrykit to train but a more corrupted form of *insert any apprentice at that time being given to a guy who needs an apprentice asap to be deputy.* Ashfur had a loophole, he just didn’t use it. (Which I think was just Baypaw, Myrtlepaw, Nightpaw, and Finchpaw… The latter did leave but Ashfur still could have stripped her of her mentor prior to said exile.)
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2024 4:06:49 GMT -5
Bumblestripe didn't have his own entry in TUG, he was just mentioned on Dovewing's page. Also, what do you mean Bumblestripe was the clear and obvious choice? Bumblestripe was a kit when Ashfur was alive. He didn't know him, while in the mean time Ashfur was seen helping train Berrynose, and it made sense because he was holding onto Bramblestar's persona, and Berrynose was Bramblestar's apprentice. I'm just saying that there was absolutely no reason for him to take on this "oh please make me your deputy obviously fake Bramblestar!" in TBC. There's no foreshadowing leading up to it, it's not like Bumblestripe has ever wanted to be deputy before or has made himself known to Bramblestar. It's just another excuse for us to hate him again. The warrior code itself makes Bumblestripe the clear and obvious choice, especially in comparison to Berrynose. A cat cannot be made deputy without having mentored at least one apprentice. Bumblestripe had mentored a total of three apprentices by this point, a very lofty number, especially in comparison to Berrynose’s total of zero. Ashfur preached about the code very early on in his time in Bramblestar’s body yet he fumbles by picking a guy who is actively breaking the warrior code simply by being in the deputy position, with him actively breaking it in turn by picking someone that has zero mentorship training. The only other awful choice he could have picked is another tom with zero apprentices, his own apprentice, Birchfall.
I also don’t really get your argument of “no foreshadowing leading up to it.” Since the deputy position was never much in question as long as Squirrelflight was alive so it’s not like any cat could have voiced some form of opinion for eventual deputyship when both leader and deputy had not been in question previously. (I cannot recall if the Clan had full knowledge of Bramblestar’s consideration of Squirrelflight’s demotion in SQH, so that’s the one opportunity something could have been foreshadowed too as deputyship was very briefly in question.)
The deputy position suddenly opening up and Bumblestripe choosing the advancement route to give himself more purpose the moment it opens, I can certainly see. If it was some attempt to make Bumblestripe look bad, Nightheart would have made some mention or comparison to it in his interactions with Dovewing, considering he had also been present for Ashfur’s takeover.
Plus with the lives of his siblings, Bumblestripe does not have a lot going for him: Briarlight. who he had tried to assist had been attacked by a dog while under his watch. She also later dies sometime later. His mother is dead. His remaining sister is living his dream of having kits and a family with a mate she loves. (Additional bonus hurt for also having grandkids soon after the arc is over.) Add onto the bonus hurt now that I think about it, his last apprentice was Shellfur. His nephew, his sister’s kit who then goes onto get his own mate that was even from another Clan, yet they’re living together in ThunderClan.
All Bumblestripe has is that he’s a good mentor, the one criteria you need to be deputy. He hasn’t been with any other she-cat since Dovewing so his romantic prospects either. Sister living his dream, mom and other sister dead. Bumblestripe is likely also aware his dad was deputy at one point and threw himself at the opportunity when it finally arose.
It also requires some foresight to just make Bumblestripe seem like the worst option for a weird beating of the DoveTiger horse by the editors that I don’t trust then to have said ability to do so, especially since it was not commented on in relation to Dovewing and Tigerstar II in either TBC or ASC, seems even further unlikely. Like if Bumblestripe had been consistently chewed out in those arcs for clamoring to Ashfur, I’d be more inclined to agree that he was a scapegoat to look like a worse character. But he was never punished for his actions that I can recall, let alone chewed out by any character.
(Which Nightheart certainly would have done considering its Nightheart, who had ample time to do so and didn’t.)
Also briefly cycling back to Berrynose, Bramblestar would have not chosen Berrynose as a deputy option. The latter had no apprentices and Bramblestar and Firestar likely never saw deputy potential in Berrynose due to him never receiving an apprentice throughout multiple arcs. If Ashfur hadn’t been blinded by his desires to smack around the emotional connections Berrynose had with Bramblestar, he could have even offered up a promise to train a future kit or even stripped one of the current cats of their apprentice and given them to Berrynose. (A very cool premise that got thrown out the window, there was room for finagling with the latter option and Ashfur again drops the ball with the poorer option from a political and appearance standpoint when Bumblestripe was the clearer choice. Would have also made some nice parallels back to Firestar promising Berrykit to train but a more corrupted form of *insert any apprentice at that time being given to a guy who needs an apprentice asap to be deputy.* Ashfur had a loophole, he just didn’t use it.
(Which I think was just Baypaw, Myrtlepaw, Nightpaw, and Finchpaw… The latter did leave but Ashfur still could have stripped her of her mentor prior to said exile.) You do have a point. I don't think it was necessarily the Erin's trying to make Bumblestripe look bad, but just that he obviously was a cat that could have filled the role because of his criterias. Whereas with Berrynose, it really was a wasted chance writing wise, because of him ironically being Bramble's apprentice previously, but there was no real follow up. If anything... Berrynose was an actual writing scapegoat. With the addition of how he was just suddenly killed in battle by Tawnypelt, and it wasn't brought up much since, outside of Daisy's novella. I think most also didn't question Berrynose's character in being a lackey because, well, it's Berrynose. I personally like him a lot, but just because he was arrogant or a bit clueless, didn't make him an antagonist, let alone a villain. Berrynose didn't really change much in the eyes of most, you either liked him or you didn't, before and after TBC. On the other hand, because Bumblestripe was considered an option as well, I can also see iceheart point too! But in a different way. Because this is following the events of AVoS, and the indefinite break-up of BumbleDove and solidification of TigerDove (ugh). Since this is how he is now, many will interpret it certain ways. I agree with you that you're right, him wanting to choose a career path, has zero agency to do with Dovewing's character at all. That is correct, at most the only thing their relationship has done to him is probably made him less interested in romance overall, and I don't blame him either. The issue is more so because of the timing, most people that dislike Bumblestripe, and try to shove his character into the he's "Ashfur 2.0" category will just use this particular situation as fuel for that argument. And also jump to the conclusion that "Bumblestripe wants to be Ashfur's deputy because of Dovewing not choosing him." And believe it or not, this is an actual notion I see a good amount of Bumblestripe detractors say following the BumbleDove break up. Even in AU's where it's Bumblestripe being chosen, some want Bumblestripe to end up just like Ashfur so Dovewing can potentially mirror Squirrelflight's character, and give Dovewing better "girl boss" behavior arcs lmao (twitter is one heck of a place). So I can see both sides of this. It's factual that Bumblestripe wanting to be deputy had nothing to do with Dovewing and he, like many others, didn't even know it was actually Ashfur in Bramblestar's body. But on the other hand, I can also see how some will use this as fuel for their arguments to tear down Bumblestripe's character even further until he's completely villainized in the sake of Dovewing, because how dare he ever show interest in her in the past. *rolls eyes*
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Post by iceheart on Jul 11, 2024 5:04:26 GMT -5
The warrior code itself makes Bumblestripe the clear and obvious choice, especially in comparison to Berrynose. A cat cannot be made deputy without having mentored at least one apprentice. Bumblestripe had mentored a total of three apprentices by this point, a very lofty number, especially in comparison to Berrynose’s total of zero. Ashfur preached about the code very early on in his time in Bramblestar’s body yet he fumbles by picking a guy who is actively breaking the warrior code simply by being in the deputy position, with him actively breaking it in turn by picking someone that has zero mentorship training. The only other awful choice he could have picked is another tom with zero apprentices, his own apprentice, Birchfall.
I also don’t really get your argument of “no foreshadowing leading up to it.” Since the deputy position was never much in question as long as Squirrelflight was alive so it’s not like any cat could have voiced some form of opinion for eventual deputyship when both leader and deputy had not been in question previously. (I cannot recall if the Clan had full knowledge of Bramblestar’s consideration of Squirrelflight’s demotion in SQH, so that’s the one opportunity something could have been foreshadowed too as deputyship was very briefly in question.)
The deputy position suddenly opening up and Bumblestripe choosing the advancement route to give himself more purpose the moment it opens, I can certainly see. If it was some attempt to make Bumblestripe look bad, Nightheart would have made some mention or comparison to it in his interactions with Dovewing, considering he had also been present for Ashfur’s takeover.
Plus with the lives of his siblings, Bumblestripe does not have a lot going for him: Briarlight. who he had tried to assist had been attacked by a dog while under his watch. She also later dies sometime later. His mother is dead. His remaining sister is living his dream of having kits and a family with a mate she loves. (Additional bonus hurt for also having grandkids soon after the arc is over.) Add onto the bonus hurt now that I think about it, his last apprentice was Shellfur. His nephew, his sister’s kit who then goes onto get his own mate that was even from another Clan, yet they’re living together in ThunderClan.
All Bumblestripe has is that he’s a good mentor, the one criteria you need to be deputy. He hasn’t been with any other she-cat since Dovewing so his romantic prospects either. Sister living his dream, mom and other sister dead. Bumblestripe is likely also aware his dad was deputy at one point and threw himself at the opportunity when it finally arose.
It also requires some foresight to just make Bumblestripe seem like the worst option for a weird beating of the DoveTiger horse by the editors that I don’t trust then to have said ability to do so, especially since it was not commented on in relation to Dovewing and Tigerstar II in either TBC or ASC, seems even further unlikely. Like if Bumblestripe had been consistently chewed out in those arcs for clamoring to Ashfur, I’d be more inclined to agree that he was a scapegoat to look like a worse character. But he was never punished for his actions that I can recall, let alone chewed out by any character.
(Which Nightheart certainly would have done considering its Nightheart, who had ample time to do so and didn’t.)
Also briefly cycling back to Berrynose, Bramblestar would have not chosen Berrynose as a deputy option. The latter had no apprentices and Bramblestar and Firestar likely never saw deputy potential in Berrynose due to him never receiving an apprentice throughout multiple arcs. If Ashfur hadn’t been blinded by his desires to smack around the emotional connections Berrynose had with Bramblestar, he could have even offered up a promise to train a future kit or even stripped one of the current cats of their apprentice and given them to Berrynose. (A very cool premise that got thrown out the window, there was room for finagling with the latter option and Ashfur again drops the ball with the poorer option from a political and appearance standpoint when Bumblestripe was the clearer choice. Would have also made some nice parallels back to Firestar promising Berrykit to train but a more corrupted form of *insert any apprentice at that time being given to a guy who needs an apprentice asap to be deputy.* Ashfur had a loophole, he just didn’t use it.
(Which I think was just Baypaw, Myrtlepaw, Nightpaw, and Finchpaw… The latter did leave but Ashfur still could have stripped her of her mentor prior to said exile.) You do have a point. I don't think it was necessarily the Erin's trying to make Bumblestripe look bad, but just that he obviously was a cat that could have filled the role because of his criterias. Whereas with Berrynose, it really was a wasted chance writing wise, because of him ironically being Bramble's apprentice previously, but there was no real follow up. If anything... Berrynose was an actual writing scapegoat. With the addition of how he was just suddenly killed in battle by Tawnypelt, and it wasn't brought up much since, outside of Daisy's novella. I think most also didn't question Berrynose's character in being a lackey because, well, it's Berrynose. I personally like him a lot, but just because he was arrogant or a bit clueless, didn't make him an antagonist, let alone a villain. Berrynose didn't really change much in the eyes of most, you either liked him or you didn't, before and after TBC. On the other hand, because Bumblestripe was considered an option as well, I can also see iceheart point too! But in a different way. Because this is following the events of AVoS, and the indefinite break-up of BumbleDove and solidification of TigerDove (ugh). Since this is how he is now, many will interpret it certain ways. I agree with you that you're right, him wanting to choose a career path, has zero agency to do with Dovewing's character at all. That is correct, at most the only thing their relationship has done to him is probably made him less interested in romance overall, and I don't blame him either. The issue is more so because of the timing, most people that dislike Bumblestripe, and try to shove his character into the he's "Ashfur 2.0" category will just use this particular situation as fuel for that argument. And also jump to the conclusion that "Bumblestripe wants to be Ashfur's deputy because of Dovewing not choosing him." And believe it or not, this is an actual notion I see a good amount of Bumblestripe detractors say following the BumbleDove break up. Even in AU's where it's Bumblestripe being chosen, some want Bumblestripe to end up just like Ashfur so Dovewing can potentially mirror Squirrelflight's character, and give Dovewing better "girl boss" behavior arcs lmao (twitter is one heck of a place). So I can see both sides of this. It's factual that Bumblestripe wanting to be deputy had nothing to do with Dovewing and he, like many others, didn't even know it was actually Ashfur in Bramblestar's body. But on the other hand, I can also see how some will use this as fuel for their arguments to tear down Bumblestripe's character even further until he's completely villainized in the sake of Dovewing, because how dare he ever show interest in her in the past. *rolls eyes* I bet the editors wish they could've changed the premise of TBC so it's actually Bumblestripe possessing Tigerheart's body to get back with Dovewing.
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Jul 11, 2024 7:40:25 GMT -5
Okay full blown villain bumble would have been funny as hell though. Shadowsight has a vision of BEES descending upon the clans...what could it mean
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Post by Katanaheart on Jul 11, 2024 12:25:05 GMT -5
The warrior code itself makes Bumblestripe the clear and obvious choice, especially in comparison to Berrynose. A cat cannot be made deputy without having mentored at least one apprentice. Bumblestripe had mentored a total of three apprentices by this point, a very lofty number, especially in comparison to Berrynose’s total of zero. Ashfur preached about the code very early on in his time in Bramblestar’s body yet he fumbles by picking a guy who is actively breaking the warrior code simply by being in the deputy position, with him actively breaking it in turn by picking someone that has zero mentorship training. The only other awful choice he could have picked is another tom with zero apprentices, his own apprentice, Birchfall.
I also don’t really get your argument of “no foreshadowing leading up to it.” Since the deputy position was never much in question as long as Squirrelflight was alive so it’s not like any cat could have voiced some form of opinion for eventual deputyship when both leader and deputy had not been in question previously. (I cannot recall if the Clan had full knowledge of Bramblestar’s consideration of Squirrelflight’s demotion in SQH, so that’s the one opportunity something could have been foreshadowed too as deputyship was very briefly in question.)
The deputy position suddenly opening up and Bumblestripe choosing the advancement route to give himself more purpose the moment it opens, I can certainly see. If it was some attempt to make Bumblestripe look bad, Nightheart would have made some mention or comparison to it in his interactions with Dovewing, considering he had also been present for Ashfur’s takeover.
Plus with the lives of his siblings, Bumblestripe does not have a lot going for him: Briarlight. who he had tried to assist had been attacked by a dog while under his watch. She also later dies sometime later. His mother is dead. His remaining sister is living his dream of having kits and a family with a mate she loves. (Additional bonus hurt for also having grandkids soon after the arc is over.) Add onto the bonus hurt now that I think about it, his last apprentice was Shellfur. His nephew, his sister’s kit who then goes onto get his own mate that was even from another Clan, yet they’re living together in ThunderClan.
All Bumblestripe has is that he’s a good mentor, the one criteria you need to be deputy. He hasn’t been with any other she-cat since Dovewing so his romantic prospects either. Sister living his dream, mom and other sister dead. Bumblestripe is likely also aware his dad was deputy at one point and threw himself at the opportunity when it finally arose.
It also requires some foresight to just make Bumblestripe seem like the worst option for a weird beating of the DoveTiger horse by the editors that I don’t trust then to have said ability to do so, especially since it was not commented on in relation to Dovewing and Tigerstar II in either TBC or ASC, seems even further unlikely. Like if Bumblestripe had been consistently chewed out in those arcs for clamoring to Ashfur, I’d be more inclined to agree that he was a scapegoat to look like a worse character. But he was never punished for his actions that I can recall, let alone chewed out by any character.
(Which Nightheart certainly would have done considering its Nightheart, who had ample time to do so and didn’t.)
Also briefly cycling back to Berrynose, Bramblestar would have not chosen Berrynose as a deputy option. The latter had no apprentices and Bramblestar and Firestar likely never saw deputy potential in Berrynose due to him never receiving an apprentice throughout multiple arcs. If Ashfur hadn’t been blinded by his desires to smack around the emotional connections Berrynose had with Bramblestar, he could have even offered up a promise to train a future kit or even stripped one of the current cats of their apprentice and given them to Berrynose. (A very cool premise that got thrown out the window, there was room for finagling with the latter option and Ashfur again drops the ball with the poorer option from a political and appearance standpoint when Bumblestripe was the clearer choice. Would have also made some nice parallels back to Firestar promising Berrykit to train but a more corrupted form of *insert any apprentice at that time being given to a guy who needs an apprentice asap to be deputy.* Ashfur had a loophole, he just didn’t use it.
(Which I think was just Baypaw, Myrtlepaw, Nightpaw, and Finchpaw… The latter did leave but Ashfur still could have stripped her of her mentor prior to said exile.) You do have a point. I don't think it was necessarily the Erin's trying to make Bumblestripe look bad, but just that he obviously was a cat that could have filled the role because of his criterias. Whereas with Berrynose, it really was a wasted chance writing wise, because of him ironically being Bramble's apprentice previously, but there was no real follow up. If anything... Berrynose was an actual writing scapegoat. With the addition of how he was just suddenly killed in battle by Tawnypelt, and it wasn't brought up much since, outside of Daisy's novella. I think most also didn't question Berrynose's character in being a lackey because, well, it's Berrynose. I personally like him a lot, but just because he was arrogant or a bit clueless, didn't make him an antagonist, let alone a villain. Berrynose didn't really change much in the eyes of most, you either liked him or you didn't, before and after TBC. On the other hand, because Bumblestripe was considered an option as well, I can also see iceheart point too! But in a different way. Because this is following the events of AVoS, and the indefinite break-up of BumbleDove and solidification of TigerDove (ugh). Since this is how he is now, many will interpret it certain ways. I agree with you that you're right, him wanting to choose a career path, has zero agency to do with Dovewing's character at all. That is correct, at most the only thing their relationship has done to him is probably made him less interested in romance overall, and I don't blame him either. The issue is more so because of the timing, most people that dislike Bumblestripe, and try to shove his character into the he's "Ashfur 2.0" category will just use this particular situation as fuel for that argument. And also jump to the conclusion that "Bumblestripe wants to be Ashfur's deputy because of Dovewing not choosing him." And believe it or not, this is an actual notion I see a good amount of Bumblestripe detractors say following the BumbleDove break up. Even in AU's where it's Bumblestripe being chosen, some want Bumblestripe to end up just like Ashfur so Dovewing can potentially mirror Squirrelflight's character, and give Dovewing better "girl boss" behavior arcs lmao (twitter is one heck of a place). So I can see both sides of this. It's factual that Bumblestripe wanting to be deputy had nothing to do with Dovewing and he, like many others, didn't even know it was actually Ashfur in Bramblestar's body. But on the other hand, I can also see how some will use this as fuel for their arguments to tear down Bumblestripe's character even further until he's completely villainized in the sake of Dovewing, because how dare he ever show interest in her in the past. *rolls eyes* I hate Dovewing so I typically don’t consider the perspective of DoveBumble past their relationship ending. Their ship died early on, why keep bothering? The whole Ashfur 2.0 is also nonsensical, even in the context of swapping Bumblestripe for Berrynose. Bumblestripe would at best just be following orders, the same as Berrynose would have. My interest in the swap outside of Bumblestripe being the better option for political reasons is the impact his death would have on his father. And his father leaving just as Bumblestripe has accomplished something with his life. (That would inevitably crash down once he’s dead and is a ghost lackey like all of the other Clan cats during ASC. Not to mention a lot of remorse in StarClan after the fact, which we’d potentially get to see when everyone was visiting StarClan briefly. Unfortunately, I can’t see his death shaking anything for ASC either. As mentioned previously, Berrynose’s arrogant personality can fit perfectly into Bumblestripe’s scenes.
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Post by Known Troll Account on Jul 11, 2024 14:53:14 GMT -5
Finally, people agree with me that Bumblestripe is not the devil and actually gives a crap about Dovewing and her safety and feelings.
I'm mostly just sad that those feelings for her vanished when she left for Tigerheart. Dovewing revealed her true mean colors to him, proving to him and Ivypool that she doesn't care about them and left. Bumblestripe was angry with her and told her to be loyal to ShadowClan and leave ThunderClan because she betrayed them, and his feelings, his anger and bitterness are completely valid because Dovecrap treats Bumblestripe like shit. She has never appreciated him and if she did even once she still always preferred freaking Tigerpoop.
Fans do not have the right to say he doesn't love her, he made a mistake and is right to leave her if he wishes. Dovewing was abusive to him and Ivypool. She doesn't deserve to be forgiven, and got off scott free for treating her Clanmates like garbage. Like I said in another post, I don't understand why Ivypool deals with her sister's bullshit.
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Asexual
#8B0000
Name Colour
🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃
this halloween i am doing the spookiest thing of all- an exam!
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃 on Jul 11, 2024 15:41:47 GMT -5
Bumblestripe isn't evil, but I would not want to be mates with him based on his behaviour.
Also the amount of Dovewing trashing on a Bumblestripe thread is sad. This isn't a hate-on-Dovewing thread. She isn't abusive, she has communication issues. I did too when I was in a similar situation. But she had every right to get away. Ivypool and Bumblestripe have every right to feel upset, but in the end Dovewing is a grown cat and Bumblestripe has no agency on her.
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Post by Woofzie on Jul 11, 2024 16:16:41 GMT -5
The Dove trashing is sad and really jarring especially when you've been on her shoes, forced to be in a relationship you don't really want to. This really borderlines victim blaming, and it's curious how most people who defends Dovewing's actions agree that she didn't do things properly, made mistakes too and wasn't mature at all. We all can agree to that.
Doesn't change the fact that she was pressured from family, friends and Bumblestripe to be with him. Doesn't change that he practically humiliated her in front of Bramblestar, didn't give her space to grow and be her own cat and then acted totally diva when she snapped "okay, I get it, you don't love me, leave me alone, you are not the female I thought" reads extremely manipulative and gross. And don't get me started in the kit debate.
Also, WHY KEEP BRINGING TIGERHEART to the argument. Lots of people complaining about Dovewing comparing one with the other and then proceed to do exactly the same. No, the "yeah but Tigerheart did worse" won't make Bumblestripe better.
And yeah, people are allowed to connect or despise a character based on personal interpretation and personal life projection. It's the entire point to a character struggle for you to identify with it. And I repeat, I've been in both's sides of the story here and Bumblestripe isn't justified, he is no spawn of devil himself, he isn't a baby saint either. He's messed up, he is entitled and he is selfish, but he has the ability to really care for someone. Dovewing wasn't the cat he needed and viceversa, he needed to grow but instead let his negative get the better of him. The whole relationship was awful and doomed, from both sides. But I can't take seriously that people defend the way he acted and completely satanize Dovewing. God.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 11, 2024 16:38:39 GMT -5
Bumblestripe isn't evil, but I would not want to be mates with him based on his behaviour. Also the amount of Dovewing trashing on a Bumblestripe thread is sad. This isn't a hate-on-Dovewing thread. She isn't abusive, she has communication issues. I did too when I was in a similar situation. But she had every right to get away. Ivypool and Bumblestripe have every right to feel upset, but in the end Dovewing is a grown cat and Bumblestripe has no agency on her. I definitely gotta agree! I don't think anyone here has actually said Bumblestripe is like Ashfur either (if anything, it's the opposite, though I could've easily missed a post), and as someone who's read the books over and over again to the point of practically committing the more prominent scenes to memory, I still don't like Bumblestripe's relationship with Dovewing no matter how many times I get to his scenes, so any negative feelings aren't necessarily a case of misremembering either, at least in my case. Interpretation, I'd get, but not necessarily misrememberance. And tbh, I really can't help but feel like the whole "this character isn't that bad, you're just projecting" thing is kinda... dismissive, I guess? I don't know, defending a character is one thing, but if someone feels like this or that thing reminds them of a bad experience—especially if that experience includes a relationship—then I don't think it's up to someone else to say their opinion is wrong or what have you. The only exception I can think of is unless they're actually misremembering a scene, but even then, if they still don't change their minds because of something else that character has actually done, then oh well.
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Non-binary
flipwish
when do we get more hairless warrior cats
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Post by flipwish on Jul 11, 2024 16:40:26 GMT -5
I will say. It's notable that basically no one who's met a Bumblestripe comparable irl person thinks he's just a sad wittle guy who loved her soo much. I've also known someone vaguely Bumblestripe-ish and: there is a reason for that
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Post by kitters on Jul 11, 2024 17:03:59 GMT -5
I will say. It's notable that basically no one who's met a Bumblestripe comparable irl person thinks he's just a sad wittle guy who loved her soo much. I've also known someone vaguely Bumblestripe-ish and: there is a reason for that he loved her too much tho Gotta say after experiencing someone like that.. ive honestly been TOO careful not to seem clingy or bothersome for fear of coming off the same way. Sometimes being firm and mean is the only way to get someone to leave you alone. (Dovewing was too mean at times but I don't think be would take the hint otherwise)
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 11, 2024 17:25:37 GMT -5
I will say. It's notable that basically no one who's met a Bumblestripe comparable irl person thinks he's just a sad wittle guy who loved her soo much. I've also known someone vaguely Bumblestripe-ish and: there is a reason for that he loved her too much tho Gotta say after experiencing someone like that.. ive honestly been TOO careful not to seem clingy or bothersome for fear of coming off the same way. Sometimes being firm and mean is the only way to get someone to leave you alone. (Dovewing was too mean at times but I don't think be would take the hint otherwise) And even when she was too mean, either he'd get upset and she'd apologize (ex: her getting annoyed that he was hunting for her) or he just wouldn't get it at all (ex: telling her to think about his offer to have kits with him). I know people like to say that Bumblestripe was socially awkward, but even if that were the case, that doesn't exactly make things better, either.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 11, 2024 17:32:31 GMT -5
And tbh, I really can't help but feel like the whole "this character isn't that bad, you're just projecting" thing is kinda... dismissive, I guess? I don't know, defending a character is one thing, but if someone feels like this or that thing reminds them of a bad experience—especially if that experience includes a relationship—then I don't think it's up to someone else to say their opinion is wrong or what have you. The only exception I can think of is unless they're actually misremembering a scene, but even then, if they still don't change their minds because of something else that character has actually done, then oh well. I was specifically talking about people misremembering scenes. People's personal experiences can influence their interpretations, but it starts being an issue when said experiences cause them to imagine things that didn't actually happen in canon. Or, alternatively, presenting a personal interpretation as canon fact. The issue is that is causes misinformation to circulate in the fandom.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 11, 2024 17:35:02 GMT -5
I will say. It's notable that basically no one who's met a Bumblestripe comparable irl person thinks he's just a sad wittle guy who loved her soo much. I've also known someone vaguely Bumblestripe-ish and: there is a reason for that isn't this kind of an issue of confirmation bias though?
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Asexual
#8B0000
Name Colour
🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃
this halloween i am doing the spookiest thing of all- an exam!
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃 on Jul 11, 2024 17:36:48 GMT -5
Bumblestripe isn't evil, but I would not want to be mates with him based on his behaviour. Also the amount of Dovewing trashing on a Bumblestripe thread is sad. This isn't a hate-on-Dovewing thread. She isn't abusive, she has communication issues. I did too when I was in a similar situation. But she had every right to get away. Ivypool and Bumblestripe have every right to feel upset, but in the end Dovewing is a grown cat and Bumblestripe has no agency on her. I definitely gotta agree! I don't think anyone here has actually said Bumblestripe is like Ashfur either (if anything, it's the opposite, though I could've easily missed a post), and as someone who's read the books over and over again to the point of practically committing the more prominent scenes to memory, I still don't like Bumblestripe's relationship with Dovewing no matter how many times I get to his scenes, so any negative feelings aren't necessarily a case of misremembering either, at least in my case. Interpretation, I'd get, but not necessarily misrememberance. And tbh, I really can't help but feel like the whole "this character isn't that bad, you're just projecting" thing is kinda... dismissive, I guess? I don't know, defending a character is one thing, but if someone feels like this or that thing reminds them of a bad experience—especially if that experience includes a relationship—then I don't think it's up to someone else to say their opinion is wrong or what have you. The only exception I can think of is unless they're actually misremembering a scene, but even then, if they still don't change their minds because of something else that character has actually done, then oh well. Agreed with the last part 100%. Idk if you were referring to the Dovewing thing in my post but that wasn't meant to attack anti-Dovewings. I just want people to understand that she was an adult with full agency lol.
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Asexual
#8B0000
Name Colour
🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃
this halloween i am doing the spookiest thing of all- an exam!
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🎃👻🦇Brambleheart🦇👻🎃 on Jul 11, 2024 17:40:29 GMT -5
I will say. It's notable that basically no one who's met a Bumblestripe comparable irl person thinks he's just a sad wittle guy who loved her soo much. I've also known someone vaguely Bumblestripe-ish and: there is a reason for that isn't this kind of an issue of confirmation bias though? No. If anything, it contextualizes the character. Whether intentional or not, Bumblestripe's arc represents people like this. He was my first exposure to possessive relationships as a kid and I was able to use that to realize what Stoattail (the equivelant from the story I linked earlier) was doing was wrong and hurtful. Rereading what went down there helped me process what was happening, but I knew Bumblestripe was doing not good things from the start. No matter what, no means no, and disrespecting that, or any indications of so, is bad. Dovewing could have communicated more but it's hard to communicate with someone who won't listen.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 11, 2024 17:47:21 GMT -5
And tbh, I really can't help but feel like the whole "this character isn't that bad, you're just projecting" thing is kinda... dismissive, I guess? I don't know, defending a character is one thing, but if someone feels like this or that thing reminds them of a bad experience—especially if that experience includes a relationship—then I don't think it's up to someone else to say their opinion is wrong or what have you. The only exception I can think of is unless they're actually misremembering a scene, but even then, if they still don't change their minds because of something else that character has actually done, then oh well. I was specifically talking about people misremembering scenes. People's personal experiences can influence their interpretations, but it starts being an issue when said experiences cause them to imagine things that didn't actually happen in canon. Or, alternatively, presenting a personal interpretation as canon fact. The issue is that is causes misinformation to circulate in the fandom. Oh no, I definitely agree with that sentiment (I even say as much at the end), that was more so me speaking in general since I've seen similar arguments before.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 11, 2024 17:51:21 GMT -5
isn't this kind of an issue of confirmation bias though? No. If anything, it contextualizes the character. Whether intentional or not, Bumblestripe's arc represents people like this. He was my first exposure to possessive relationships as a kid and I was able to use that to realize what Stoattail (the equivelant from the story I linked earlier) was doing was wrong and hurtful. Rereading what went down there helped me process what was happening, but I knew Bumblestripe was doing not good things from the start. No matter what, no means no, and disrespecting that, or any indications of so, is bad. Dovewing could have communicated more but it's hard to communicate with someone who won't listen. Yeah I get that, I should have clarified more. What I mean is that I'm not really sure the statement proves anything about what is/isn't a "correct" interpretation of his character. If you know people who have played the "I just love them a lot" angle in an creepy or manipulative way, then it stands to reason your instinctual interpretation of a character like Bumblestripe is going to be a negative one. It's hard not to read such things as negative if it's your primary experience. I guess the point is that the claim that (paraphrased) "people who have met people like Bumblestripe IRL know it's creepy" is kind of circular reasoning because all it proves is that someone's personal experience lines up with a personal interpretation of the character. Which is usually how it goes. In direct conflict of that claim, I have met people IRL who remind me of Bumblestripe and did not find them creepy. I have confirmation bias in interpreting his character with a positive/forgiving outlook because of my positive experiences with what to me seemed like similar people IRL.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 11, 2024 17:51:57 GMT -5
I was specifically talking about people misremembering scenes. People's personal experiences can influence their interpretations, but it starts being an issue when said experiences cause them to imagine things that didn't actually happen in canon. Or, alternatively, presenting a personal interpretation as canon fact. The issue is that is causes misinformation to circulate in the fandom. Oh no, I definitely agree with that sentiment (I even say as much as the end), that was more so me speaking in general since I've seen similar arguments before. Oh okay I gotcha! I wasn't sure since I knew I brought it up earlier and was worried that I sounded dismissive.
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Post by kitters on Jul 11, 2024 17:55:22 GMT -5
You could claim almost anything as confirmation bias. You think Firestar is a good leader? Well if you've ever had a kind teacher or parent your opinion is muddled by confirmation bias soo. You COULD be wrong!
But yeah what a way to try and dismiss someone's post though. If you have any sort of emotional experience to something just call confirmation bias on their ass
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 11, 2024 17:56:02 GMT -5
I definitely gotta agree! I don't think anyone here has actually said Bumblestripe is like Ashfur either (if anything, it's the opposite, though I could've easily missed a post), and as someone who's read the books over and over again to the point of practically committing the more prominent scenes to memory, I still don't like Bumblestripe's relationship with Dovewing no matter how many times I get to his scenes, so any negative feelings aren't necessarily a case of misremembering either, at least in my case. Interpretation, I'd get, but not necessarily misrememberance. And tbh, I really can't help but feel like the whole "this character isn't that bad, you're just projecting" thing is kinda... dismissive, I guess? I don't know, defending a character is one thing, but if someone feels like this or that thing reminds them of a bad experience—especially if that experience includes a relationship—then I don't think it's up to someone else to say their opinion is wrong or what have you. The only exception I can think of is unless they're actually misremembering a scene, but even then, if they still don't change their minds because of something else that character has actually done, then oh well. Agreed with the last part 100%. Idk if you were referring to the Dovewing thing in my post but that wasn't meant to attack anti-Dovewings. I just want people to understand that she was an adult with full agency lol. No, no, you're fine! I understand what you meant and I agree!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2024 21:58:04 GMT -5
And tbh, I really can't help but feel like the whole "this character isn't that bad, you're just projecting" thing is kinda... dismissive, I guess? I don't know, defending a character is one thing, but if someone feels like this or that thing reminds them of a bad experience—especially if that experience includes a relationship—then I don't think it's up to someone else to say their opinion is wrong or what have you. The only exception I can think of is unless they're actually misremembering a scene, but even then, if they still don't change their minds because of something else that character has actually done, then oh well. I was specifically talking about people misremembering scenes. People's personal experiences can influence their interpretations, but it starts being an issue when said experiences cause them to imagine things that didn't actually happen in canon. Or, alternatively, presenting a personal interpretation as canon fact. The issue is that is causes misinformation to circulate in the fandom. Pretty much this. Also I think people need to understand that just because someone is criticizing a character =/= bashing a character. And just because one person strongly dislikes and is openly bashing on said character, that's just them and not everyone else. I personally dislike Dovewing, I criticize her, but I'm not bashing on her. Pretty sure most of us know the difference, but you're free to have your own opinion regardless. As long as you're not using that opinion to dismiss and actual canon fact. Again it's the "Saying something is an apple when it's actually an orange, but then people still saying its an apple on purpose just because they don't like oranges." thing all over again.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2024 22:21:43 GMT -5
This is just me rambling a bit here by the way.
The other thing I also find a bit interesting is that never in Dovewing's pov, and her interpretation of Bumblestripe did she ever explicitly view him as "creepy" or has the narrative ever went out of it's way to say he was. Or even that writing team saying so as well. It's all really more or less, an interpretation of how some people view their relationship.
I think Tigertwo was creepy, and much worse, but that's my interpretation of his character. And this interpretation stems on what people claim to be considered "creepy" in canon by Bumblestripe's actions, when Tigertwo blatantly and objectively does much worse behavior and Dovewing still ends up with him despite that (and the several break ups)...
Then you have other examples, quite literally a much more explicit one that happens in the same arc as Dovewing leaving for ShadowClan, in Twigbranch and Finleap's relationship. A literal actual example of a tom actually pressuring his mate into having kits, when she stated otherwise and was openly uncomfortable, and then trying to force her into an ultimatum. Either give him a new family or he'll leave to go back to his old one. And it's not that Twigbranch didn't want kits, she just didn't want them yet. This is an actual example, at least by previous logics of these arguments, where a character is pretty creepy, or at least very selfish and is openly pressuring their mate.
And the more extreme version is well... Ashfur and Squirrelflight.
And just for fun, if I were to personally say, put it on a scale, Bumblestripe is not as bad as Tigertwo are Finleap, and definitely not as bad as Ashfur. However, he's not exactly a saint (most cats aren't), but I guess the best you can say is that he's not a Thrushpelt or Fernsong. He's just in the middle.
Bumblestripe is just more or less "pathetic" but more so in a "sad puppy/wet cat" way. Socially inept, and hopeless.
People seem to forget that Dovewing had imagined a future with him quite a few times, literally got with him out of convenience even when he was fine with giving up on her TWICE, and then dumped him without an explanation even when he was shown to canonly be supportive of her during their relationship. The kit scene (which lol is just a bonus chapter exclusive anyways) can literally be interpreted many ways. But since you ONLY see Dovewing's pov, the reader has to figure out what Bumblestripe's pov is just from what he's saying. And he's quite clear about it. He literally WANTS to talk about their relationship, especially with the lack of closure at that point. And again Dovewing does see her with him potentially, but then pushes it away because she doesn't truly love him. It's not that she doesn't want kits, she does, just not with him. It's not that she hates him, but she finds herself it hard to communicate with him even though that would literally solve all their issues in a healthier way.
The reason people are harder on Dovewing is because we see her pov bias view. Bumblestripe never overstepped boundaries, but he was terrible with his timing some times. And him liking someone isn't a crime, I think some people need to understand that. It's also literally hard for Dove and Bumble to not cross paths with one another, they were in the same clans for years. What did people expect Bumble to do? Just leave and become a loner at that point? (Thankfully this is solved anyways after the dragged-out events of ThS)
I just feel like sometimes circumstances and past development isn't being considered in threads like this, at least from my view. And it creates a level of dissonance.
If you told me "Well from Dovewing's pov she probably thought it was creepy, but I don't think that makes Bumblestripe and actual creep." I'd get it. But the point I see brought up more is "Bumblestripe was a creep, period, and he was terrible to Dovewing, and pressured her a lot!" which just feels like villainization of his character. Likewise, I personally wouldn't say "Dovewing was abusive to Bumblestripe, and always treated him like trash." I wouldn't go that far even though I think she was rude as hell to him unprovoked on multiple occasions.
But again, these are just some thoughts I'm rambling, so don't take them as the one and only truth, I'm just trying to explain things better.
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Post by iceheart on Jul 12, 2024 2:17:27 GMT -5
This is just me rambling a bit here by the way. The other thing I also find a bit interesting is that never in Dovewing's pov, and her interpretation of Bumblestripe did she ever explicitly view him as "creepy" or has the narrative ever went out of it's way to say he was. Or even that writing team saying so as well. It's all really more or less, an interpretation of how some people view their relationship. I think Tigertwo was creepy, and much worse, but that's my interpretation of his character. And this interpretation stems on what people claim to be considered "creepy" in canon by Bumblestripe's actions, when Tigertwo blatantly and objectively does much worse behavior and Dovewing still ends up with him despite that (and the several break ups)... Then you have other examples, quite literally a much more explicit one that happens in the same arc as Dovewing leaving for ShadowClan, in Twigbranch and Finleap's relationship. A literal actual example of a tom actually pressuring his mate into having kits, when she stated otherwise and was openly uncomfortable, and then trying to force her into an ultimatum. Either give him a new family or he'll leave to go back to his old one. And it's not that Twigbranch didn't want kits, she just didn't want them yet. This is an actual example, at least by previous logics of these arguments, where a character is pretty creepy, or at least very selfish and is openly pressuring their mate. And the more extreme version is well... Ashfur and Squirrelflight. And just for fun, if I were to personally say, put it on a scale, Bumblestripe is not as bad as Tigertwo are Finleap, and definitely not as bad as Ashfur. However, he's not exactly a saint (most cats aren't), but I guess the best you can say is that he's not a Thrushpelt or Fernsong. He's just in the middle. Bumblestripe is just more or less "pathetic" but more so in a "sad puppy/wet cat" way. Socially inept, and hopeless. People seem to forget that Dovewing had imagined a future with him quite a few times, literally got with him out of convenience even when he was fine with giving up on her TWICE, and then dumped him without an explanation even when he was shown to canonly be supportive of her during their relationship. The kit scene (which lol is just a bonus chapter exclusive anyways) can literally be interpreted many ways. But since you ONLY see Dovewing's pov, the reader has to figure out what Bumblestripe's pov is just from what he's saying. And he's quite clear about it. He literally WANTS to talk about their relationship, especially with the lack of closure at that point. And again Dovewing does see her with him potentially, but then pushes it away because she doesn't truly love him. It's not that she doesn't want kits, she does, just not with him. It's not that she hates him, but she finds herself it hard to communicate with him even though that would literally solve all their issues in a healthier way. The reason people are harder on Dovewing is because we see her pov bias view. Bumblestripe never overstepped boundaries, but he was terrible with his timing some times. And him liking someone isn't a crime, I think some people need to understand that. It's also literally hard for Dove and Bumble to not cross paths with one another, they were in the same clans for years. What did people expect Bumble to do? Just leave and become a loner at that point? (Thankfully this is solved anyways after the dragged-out events of ThS) I just feel like sometimes circumstances and past development isn't being considered in threads like this, at least from my view. And it creates a level of dissonance. If you told me "Well from Dovewing's pov she probably thought it was creepy, but I don't think that makes Bumblestripe and actual creep." I'd get it. But the point I see brought up more is "Bumblestripe was a creep, period, and he was terrible to Dovewing, and pressured her a lot!" which just feels like villainization of his character. Likewise, I personally wouldn't say "Dovewing was abusive to Bumblestripe, and always treated him like trash." I wouldn't go that far even though I think she was rude as hell to him unprovoked on multiple occasions. But again, these are just some thoughts I'm rambling, so don't take them as the one and only truth, I'm just trying to explain things better. Said it better than I ever could.
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Post by asrise on Jul 12, 2024 7:24:02 GMT -5
My opinion on Bumblestripe still has not changed since looking closer into his chapters. Reading the books gives me the impression that Bumblestripe is in love with an idea of Dovewing that doesn't exist and that Dovewing just doesn't like the guy. When Bumblestripe breaks up with her, he realised this fact.
I also think that the fact that Dovewing imagined herself with him does not mean she actually wanted to be with him. She just thinks it's the easier option, because of her friends and family's pressure. Yes, Dovewing was pressured. I'm not sure why people are acting like this isn't the case because Bumblestripe wasn't behind it, because that really doesn't matter. The effect is the same.
Bumblestripe is also not that great of a person within their early relationship either. Not abusive, but I could understand how Dovewing could get annoyed at him. During their training sessions, he's constantly getting after her, which is fine, except for when he insults her in front of Brambleclaw, which really was not necessary. He's not a perfect guy, and he is also frustrated that Dovewing isn't responding to him in the way he wants. Put simply, Bumblestripe does not really like Dovewing in practice. This is supported when he breaks up with her, saying that she's not the cat he thought she was.
My point is not that I think Bumblestripe is a terrible cat, or abusive, or anything like that. My point is that he does not work as a partner for Dovewing and Dovewing is not obligated to be with him or show him more love.
I also think it's funny that people are willing to defend Bumblestripe's actions as him being 'socially inept', but Dovewing is 'rude for no reason' whenever she says something against him or blows him off.
If you disagree, that's okay. But don't say that your interpretation is unbiased or better because at the end of the day it is just an interpretation. I've read the same books as everyone else here, and this is still my opinion.
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