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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 8, 2024 2:30:01 GMT -5
Dovewing actually makes a fat joke about him in the last hope which is pretty mean. I really just think they're not compatible at all and Dovewing is in a headspace where she feels pressured from all sides to accept bumblestripe while hating him at the same time (it really seems like she strongly dislikes him even when they are together). I don't think she truly discovers her real personality until she joins shadowclan. She was always held down and restricted in some way. Oh yikes... not even I remembered that one... But I do agree, she was quite mean to him, literally any time they were together. Before, during and after they were in a relationship, and it was simply because he wasn't Tigerheart. It was very distasteful imo...
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Post by Known Troll Account on Jul 8, 2024 15:58:06 GMT -5
Seems more like a "How much you hate Dovewing" thread than a Bumblestripe one. Pointing out, pressuring someone to be in a relationship and have kids with you is nowhere near love. While I repeat, Dovewing didn't do things right, she was harrassed. She DID say multiple times that she only saw him as a friend but they never listened. Nor Bumblestripe or any other of those who kept putting pressure onto her. Yeah, glad she was able to move out of a circle that kept pushing her inside a relationship she didn't want. She could have done things better and more maturely, but nothing around her was being fair or mature. Really, she said "NO" and this guy just said "Nah I won't accept that, I'll ask again soon, think about it". I really hate the argument "doing this to somebody isn't love" do we really have the right to say how a person feels? I shouldn't have to repeat this, Bumblestripe has been shown over and over again that he clearly cared about Dovewing, it's just that he made some mistakes at the wrong time, it doesn't mean he doesn't love her.
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Post by Known Troll Account on Jul 8, 2024 16:06:57 GMT -5
Dovewing actually makes a fat joke about him in the last hope which is pretty mean. I really just think they're not compatible at all and Dovewing is in a headspace where she feels pressured from all sides to accept bumblestripe while hating him at the same time (it really seems like she strongly dislikes him even when they are together). I don't think she truly discovers her real personality until she joins shadowclan. She was always held down and restricted in some way. Wow, I completely forgot about that. And yet there are people defending cats like Rainflower or Millie but Bumblestripe gets a lot of crap just for making a mistake. Don't forget, she also said something nasty like "I only liked you because you're a ThunderClan cat!" Really shows her true colors, I don't understand why people defend her.
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Post by Known Troll Account on Jul 8, 2024 16:12:35 GMT -5
Dovewing only gets with him because he's the easiest choice. She's always snapping at him even when he's nice to her. In Shattered Sky he praises her for being a great hunter and she yells at him. I don't care if she feels bad what she did was horrible to me. Then he praises her for being a good mentor and mother in Bramblestar's Storm. She backs away feeling uncomfortable. While they're still in a relationship, Dovewing is happily talking to Tigerheart and he's shocked witnessing the scene (I can't remember which book this was) Bumblestripe is the first cat always there for her but she doesn't appreciate it. Dovewing is the abusive one, not him. While she's allowed to reject the idea about having kits, she still acted very mean about it. Dovewing is awful at communicating with both Bumblestripe and Ivypool. I will never truly forgive her treatment toward them.
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Post by kitters on Jul 8, 2024 16:40:51 GMT -5
Dovewing actually makes a fat joke about him in the last hope which is pretty mean. I really just think they're not compatible at all and Dovewing is in a headspace where she feels pressured from all sides to accept bumblestripe while hating him at the same time (it really seems like she strongly dislikes him even when they are together). I don't think she truly discovers her real personality until she joins shadowclan. She was always held down and restricted in some way. Oh yikes... not even I remembered that one... But I do agree, she was quite mean to him, literally any time they were together. Before, during and after they were in a relationship, and it was simply because he wasn't Tigerheart. It was very distasteful imo... yup. He offers her a mouse before a gathering and she says no thanks, but he can go eat if he wants. The next page rosepetal says he's trying to cram in a mouse before they leave and she says "he'll be as fat as Graystripe if he keeps eating like that." I'm on her side 95% of the time but girl.. rude!!
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 8, 2024 20:42:08 GMT -5
i dont really think either of them mistreated each other to the extent that both sides of this thread seem to think.
i think they were just a poor match. clashing personalities, different communication styles, life goals at odds. dovewing was never really that into him and bumblestripe tried too hard to make it work when it was pretty obviously a lost cause.
she used him as a way to try get over tigerheart; it doesn’t make her a bad person, but it wasn’t right, and feeling pressured by others isn’t an excuse. he wasn’t good at letting go and moving on; his intentions were good, but he was blinded by what they used to have and failed to recognize that their relationship was truly over.
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Post by Woofzie on Jul 9, 2024 1:09:45 GMT -5
I really hate the argument "doing this to somebody isn't love" do we really have the right to say how a person feels? Basic philosophy and psychology says that, yes you can comprehend love as a integration of basic emotions, most of them agree that it must contain, at least affection, respect and trust, wich BOTH Dovewing and Bumblestripe lacked of for each other. Failing to understand and respect Dovewing's decisions made it clear that he loved an idealized idea of her, not her for the cat she was. Of course love feels different for every individual! But Bumblestripe failed miserably to respect Dovewing's decisions and often acted superficial, obsessive and really ceepy. That's infatuation, not love. I shouldn't have to repeat this, Bumblestripe has been shown over and over again that he clearly cared about Dovewing, it's just that he made some mistakes at the wrong time, it doesn't mean he doesn't love her. He showed that he cared about his own idealization of Dovewing and HIS desires, not about her as an individual and a real person (cat). Making mistakes is fine, but love means to realize when you are in the wrong, apologize, AND STOP to repeat the mistake you are doing and both sides didn't meet this mutual agreement, not a single time. There was no communication, wich, too, is fundamental for a loving relationship.
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Pansexual
pepperfrost
I'M BACK BUT REPLIES VERY LATE, SCHOOL STARTED.
Pronouns: she/her, they/them
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Post by pepperfrost on Jul 9, 2024 2:27:00 GMT -5
Me personally, I don't really care for Bumblestripe, he never got the memo Dovewing genuinely didn't want to be around him, especially with him being creepy towards her. To me, I see him as a discord mod that wears a Fedora. He genuinely never got the memo. - For Dovewing, I do love her as a character, but I will admit that she's done wrong. Including the previously mentioned fat jokes, and harmful things said to Bumblestripe. This and, her interactions with him a bit before the creepiness had taken over, how she had a rough time communicating properly to Ivypool and Bumblestripe, along with the trio siblings Holly, Lion, and Jay. Genuinely attacking their character at times and being rude. Now I don't think she meant to hurt him as badly as she actually did. But after that, he did deserve it. He constantly harassed her and made fun of her in the relationship after the frequent turndowns of his creepy interactions and questions. - As for both of them, they're completely non compatible, they suck together. Dovewing mostly has a rough time actually speaking for her ideals and problems, which Tigerheart/Star II genuinely could handle and decipher, she wasn't free in the relationship with Bumblestripe. Neither was she free in Thunderclan, she had a sister who hated her and was relatively important in the past in that which may have effected her choices. She's more free in Shadowclan because she doesn't hold the same title as she did in Thunderclan, this and also, Bumblestripe never actually genuinely apologized, constantly thinking about something else, or thinking about the thing he's "apologizing" for! It's just really manipulating looking at it. If you apologized you'd think about it and be remorseful, not keep thinking about it. This, and he never actually cared about what she thought in the relationship. He wanted to smother her and think the same way he did, which is really controlling. Then when she has a outburst, it's genuinely his fault, but him and other people unfortunately don't view it that way. I think Bumblestripe just needs to work on himself at that point, being crazy creepy to your mate is not it, and then being a jerk after words is really upsetting, and telling that his character is supposed to be a creepy controlling cat who's selfish. He did not care that Dovewing was overwhelmed, upset, angry or tired. He wanted to do what he wanted and smothered her, whereas I think he's a fine cat by himself, I believe he made Dovewing not want to be around him, not Dovewing made Dovewing not want to be around him. He's a funny cat alone, without Dovewing, but with Dovewing, he's the discord mod everyone tells you not to talk to.
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Post by leafchaser on Jul 9, 2024 2:47:23 GMT -5
I think Bumblestripe reminds a lot of people- myself included- of guys they've met before. A lot of what he says can be interpreted as harmless, but frankly I do think he's kind of emotionally manipulative and weird to Dovewing. Though it doesn't help that the entire clan has this weird habit of assuming any two cats should be in a relationship for basically no reason outside of them being not related and the opposite gender haha.
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Pansexual
pepperfrost
I'M BACK BUT REPLIES VERY LATE, SCHOOL STARTED.
Pronouns: she/her, they/them
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Post by pepperfrost on Jul 9, 2024 2:48:42 GMT -5
If Dovewing didn't want the ****ing relationship, then she should have opened her mouth and said no. I've seen people say she was "pressured", lol no she was not, her immediate thoughts were about stupid Tigerheart and how he's the better choice because he's a ThunderClan cat. Dovewing is the bastard here, she disrespected him so much till he got fed up and angry with her when she left, going as far as preventing her from seeing Ivypool because hes right, she betrayed him and her clan for Tigerheart. She lost the right to see Ivypool after she left. Bumblestripe loved Dovewing, he respected and cared about her safety. Can you imagine how worried he might have been when she left in Tigerheart's Shadow? I hate Doveshit so much, she truly is a horrible piece of dirt. Okay, a lot of this does really ick me out, Bumblestripe totally has done some over the boundary things with Dovewing. I'll go with the points you brought up specifically that urk me. - "I've seen people say she was "pressured", lol no she was not" There's text DEFINITELY proving that she was pressured into being into this relationship. Not only did he propose this relationship at a dead Clan members funeral, but also he got her family members to back him up and try to convince her to get with him, after already not feeling like she wanted to. The word you're disliking here is called "pity". - "she betrayed him and her clan for Tigerheart" Okay, I can sorta see how you can say she "Betrayed her clan" but she did not in any way actually mean to hurt anyone. You read that she feels remorseful afterwards. This and also, is it really "betraying" when he didn't actually care about her feelings? He genuinely overwhelmed her in such of a position that it was inherently his fault whenever she'd lash out. He made her feel unsafe in her own clan because she didn't want to have kits with him, he kept bringing this up however in the same page and different ones. When she finally turned him down multiple times, he lashed out at her. He's made fun of her afterwards for this. With Tigerheart, she genuinely felt free, she was able to convince Tigerheart for kits because of a already previous conversation. They actually communicated in the relationship and Tigerheart had a open heart and mind when coming to it. - "he respected and cared about her safety. Can you imagine how worried he might have been when she left" ABSOLUTELY not, at this point, his character has already been assassinated. He genuinely did not care about Dovewing and really only wanted to get close to her and have a family. If he genuinely actually cared, he wouldn't have tried to get with her after Purdy's death, wouldn't have made the same creepy mistakes over, and over again, he would've actually apologized to Dovewing without thinking about what he's apologizing for with no remorse whatsoever. He wouldn't have tried to pressure her more by putting her in a solid stance while she already is overwhelmed in the relationship and in the clan. He would've had her be free, let her actually communicate her feelings without being put down. He would've gaven her space, and changed for the better. Alas, this never happened, and he was a total creep. This is my stance on the situation between them. I don't like him in this relationship or even after now at all. He used to be a sweet and funny cat, but his character is so far deep in mud it's nasty.
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Pansexual
pepperfrost
I'M BACK BUT REPLIES VERY LATE, SCHOOL STARTED.
Pronouns: she/her, they/them
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Post by pepperfrost on Jul 9, 2024 2:50:55 GMT -5
I think Bumblestripe reminds a lot of people- myself included- of guys they've met before. A lot of what he says can be interpreted as harmless, but frankly I do think he's kind of emotionally manipulative and weird to Dovewing. Though it doesn't help that the entire clan has this weird habit of assuming any two cats should be in a relationship for basically no reason outside of them being not related and the opposite gender haha. LOL, little dump about my personal life, but I swear my ex read warrior cats because I was into it, read Bumblestripe and immediately started acting emotionally abusive to me. It's crazy how this cat acts.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 9, 2024 4:27:25 GMT -5
I really hate the argument "doing this to somebody isn't love" do we really have the right to say how a person feels? Basic philosophy and psychology says that, yes you can comprehend love as a integration of basic emotions, most of them agree that it must contain, at least affection, respect and trust, wich BOTH Dovewing and Bumblestripe lacked of for each other. Failing to understand and respect Dovewing's decisions made it clear that he loved an idealized idea of her, not her for the cat she was. Of course love feels different for every individual! But Bumblestripe failed miserably to respect Dovewing's decisions and often acted superficial, obsessive and really ceepy. That's infatuation, not love. I shouldn't have to repeat this, Bumblestripe has been shown over and over again that he clearly cared about Dovewing, it's just that he made some mistakes at the wrong time, it doesn't mean he doesn't love her. He showed that he cared about his own idealization of Dovewing and HIS desires, not about her as an individual and a real person (cat). Making mistakes is fine, but love means to realize when you are in the wrong, apologize, AND STOP to repeat the mistake you are doing and both sides didn't meet this mutual agreement, not a single time. There was no communication, wich, too, is fundamental for a loving relationship. Exactly this! Yes, Dovewing was awful to him. She admitted in TLH to only liking him because he was a ThunderClan and should've been honest with him and even herself from the start (maybe not necessarily bring up Tigerheart, but should've at least told him she didn't like him in a romantic sense instead of trying to force it), but possible authorial differences aside, the fact that they seemed fine in TFW and immediately start to find each other annoying when they don't meet the other's expectations (Bumblestripe criticizing Dovewing throughout their training session and Dovewing snapping at him for walking too close to her on their way to the Gathering) should probably say a lot. Bumblestripe acknowledged that Dovewing was a hero and this probably made him think he could help her wind down, and though this might seem sweet on the surface, he also ended up overdoing it. His constant stifling—judging everything she did during training, getting Bramblestar involved when she was trying to get her powers back, even hunting for her in the SS bonus scene despite inviting her, never mind that she was perfectly capable of catching her own—is exactly what turned Dovewing away from him. Literally the entire reason she thinks about Tigerheart at all during their tree climbing is because of this! Yes, her feelings for him were a contributing factor, but it wasn't just that. It was how Bumblestripe acted! And speaking of SS, you know what else happens in that book? Lionblaze and Cinderheart announcing their second litter. They were mates and even they understood it wasn't the right time. Another pretty good parallel to this happens with Fernsong and Ivypool: Ivypool refuses to have kits, and though Fernsong is persistent, he at least offers a compromise and Darktail was already gone by the time they have this talk. But Bumblestripe? He just tells Dovewing to think about it, clearly expecting her to change her mind before leaving her alone. Actually, I think this sums up his character perfectly:
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 9, 2024 5:17:21 GMT -5
If Dovewing didn't want the ****ing relationship, then she should have opened her mouth and said no. I've seen people say she was "pressured", lol no she was not, her immediate thoughts were about stupid Tigerheart and how he's the better choice because he's a ThunderClan cat. Dovewing is the bastard here, she disrespected him so much till he got fed up and angry with her when she left, going as far as preventing her from seeing Ivypool because hes right, she betrayed him and her clan for Tigerheart. She lost the right to see Ivypool after she left. Bumblestripe loved Dovewing, he respected and cared about her safety. Can you imagine how worried he might have been when she left in Tigerheart's Shadow? I hate Doveshit so much, she truly is a horrible piece of dirt. Okay, a lot of this does really ick me out, Bumblestripe totally has done some over the boundary things with Dovewing. I'll go with the points you brought up specifically that urk me. - "I've seen people say she was "pressured", lol no she was not" There's text DEFINITELY proving that she was pressured into being into this relationship. Not only did he propose this relationship at a dead Clan members funeral, but also he got her family members to back him up and try to convince her to get with him, after already not feeling like she wanted to. The word you're disliking here is called "pity". So just because I've seen this a few other times already, this is probably the only thing I'll defend Bumblestripe on. I can see what you mean when it comes to Whitewing since she actually mentioned she spoke to Bumblestripe before talking to Dovewing about it, but even then, we don't know exactly what was said. As for everyone else, I don't think he can necessarily be blamed for that, either. For example, both when Dovewing rejected to basically go on a date with him and later when she snapped at him, he said nothing to either Cinderheart or Rosepetal, they approached Dovewing about it all on their own. And Ivypool already liked him. That said, however, it's still definitely fair to say Dovewing was pressured and I really don't see what else it could be. Again, Cinderheart encouraged her to spend time with him, and Whitewing—her own mother—brought up kits. The fact that Dovewing was also having doubts about Tigerheart at this time (him not only being in a different Clan, but a Dark Forest trainee as well, and one who didn't take anything seriously at that) definitely didn't help. No wonder she felt compelled to give Bumblestripe a chance.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 9, 2024 5:41:42 GMT -5
He constantly harassed her and made fun of her in the relationship after the frequent turndowns of his creepy interactions and questions. This, and he never actually cared about what she thought in the relationship. He wanted to smother her and think the same way he did, which is really controlling. I think Bumblestripe just needs to work on himself at that point, being crazy creepy to your mate is not it, and then being a jerk after words is really upsetting, and telling that his character is supposed to be a creepy controlling cat who's selfish. He did not care that Dovewing was overwhelmed, upset, angry or tired. He wanted to do what he wanted and smothered her, whereas I think he's a fine cat by himself, I believe he made Dovewing not want to be around him, not Dovewing made Dovewing not want to be around him. He's a funny cat alone, without Dovewing, but with Dovewing, he's the discord mod everyone tells you not to talk to. When did this happen at all? No where in the books did Bumblestripe ever make fun of her while they were together, or even after the break up. It's shown multiple times that he DID care about her, and DID wanted to communicate with her, but the problem was Dovewing's lack of communication and avoidance of situations. That was the issue, and why they never actually had proper closure. She literally got mad at him for trying to check on her after she was suffering from withdrawals when she lost her powers, and they were mates at that point. He was never controlling, never smothered her, and was even willing to give up on her EARLIER ON in the series when she kept using him like a scratching post just because he liked him. Which honestly, I don't see how liking a cat in your own clan is suddenly a problem now. If anything Bumblestripe cared too much, when she was a lost cost from the start since she constantly kept comparing him to Tigerheart. The only actual problem Bumblestripe had was being socially inept, but suddenly that's being treated like he's "creepy". But when she used him out of convenience and led him on, that was totally okay? Like if you guys actually want a cat that was creepy, clingy, and overbearing toward Dovewing then literally look at her own mate. Tigertwo is literally right there, and was 10x worse than what some made Bumblestripe out to be.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 9, 2024 5:53:44 GMT -5
Okay, a lot of this does really ick me out, Bumblestripe totally has done some over the boundary things with Dovewing. I'll go with the points you brought up specifically that urk me. - "I've seen people say she was "pressured", lol no she was not" There's text DEFINITELY proving that she was pressured into being into this relationship. Not only did he propose this relationship at a dead Clan members funeral, but also he got her family members to back him up and try to convince her to get with him, after already not feeling like she wanted to. The word you're disliking here is called "pity". So just because I've seen this a few other times already, this is probably the only thing I'll defend Bumblestripe on. I can see what you mean when it comes to Whitewing since she actually mentioned she spoke to Bumblestripe before talking to Dovewing about it, but even then, we don't know exactly what was said. As for everyone else, I don't think he can necessarily be blamed for that, either. For example, both when Dovewing rejected to basically go on a date with him and later when she snapped at him, he said nothing to either Cinderheart or Rosepetal, they approached Dovewing about it all on their own. And Ivypool already liked him. That said, however, it's still definitely fair to say Dovewing was pressured and I really don't see what else it could be. Again, Cinderheart encouraged her to spend time with him, and Whitewing—her own mother—brought up kits. The fact that Dovewing was also having doubts about Tigerheart at this time (him not only being in a different Clan, but a Dark Forest trainee as well, and one who didn't take anything seriously at that) definitely didn't help. No wonder she felt compelled to give Bumblestripe a chance. Pretty much this. I don't understand how we're still having this argument in 2024. When will people realize that Bumblestripe didn't pressure Dovewing to do anything. It always bugged me that they blame him for things OTHER clanmates do, if anything people should be annoyed by them. Even when Whitewing brought up Bumblestripe, it was more of her wanting to give the "kit conversation" and trying to convince Dovewing to become a queen one day. Which on it's own was such a weird conversation to be brought up by Whitewing at all. On the other hand I can understand Cinderheart, Rosepetal and Ivypool all supporting the idea of Dovewing being with Bumblestripe because they already liked him as a friend, and have scenes with him. But somehow people got it in their heads that he's some mass manipulator creep that convinced them all to pressure Dovewing to get with him like a diet Ashfur 2.0. I can't, reminds me of the old YT rhetoric back in the day, which was filled with a bunch of self-projecting. It's literally not that deep.
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Post by asrise on Jul 9, 2024 8:02:17 GMT -5
Okay, so I skimmed through all of the Dovewing chapters in TFW and TLH for this, so I hope this settles something. (It probably won't)
- Dovewing only starts talking to Bumblestripe because of Whitewing. This is not Bumblestripe's fault. Cinderheart also tells her to go ahead here. - Bumblestripe flirts with her, Dovewing does not care about him. During their walk together, she's more preoccupied with gaining her powers back. This is okay, we know she isn't very interested. - Ivypool and Blossomfall get on her back for not returning Bumblestripe's affections as much as they think she should. This is the pressure that most people are talking about, but it isn't Bumblestripe's fault, though he plays into it. - Dovewing trains with Bumblestripe. It's clear they don't work well together, and Dovewing THINKS that Tigerheart would be better than Bumblestripe. She does not say this out loud. - Bumblestripe insults Dovewing's tree climbing ability in front of Brambleclaw. - Later, Dovewing meets with Tigerheart. She and Bumblestripe have made no commitment to each other. - In return, Dovewing insults Bumblestripe for eating early to Rosepetal. - Rosepetal blames Dovewing for the problems in their relationship, telling her to apologize to him. This does not work, and Bumblestripe launches into how he's tired of chasing after her for nothing and that he's breaking off the relationship.
This would be great, if it were the end. But it's not. For some reason, he's back together with her at the end of the battle (No explanation is given) and the relationship continues. So, it does read that he was just guilting her when he left the first time, and he keeps asking to be with her after this, digging the hole deeper.
It's not really that complicated, they just didn't work together. Bumblestripe actually gets this in TLH! But the authors just had to continue the drama, stretching it into a longer story where Bumblestripe won't give up on Dovewing.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 9, 2024 8:10:08 GMT -5
What’s a little weird to me is that the few scenes/examples people have used to declare Bumblestripe as manipulative just read to me as him being socially awkward. Boy means well but doesn’t have the best sense of time and place, and it backfires.
Also, some of the examples people bring up straight up didn’t happen and they are misremembering (a common issue is Warriors discussions tbf). The “he manipulated Whitewing into talking on his behalf” thing is a great example. Really not trying to be an ass in saying this, but I also wonder sometimes if people are perhaps accidentally projecting negative personal experiences and it’s causing them to misremember the actual canon scenes. Again I don’t want to be rude but it’s a pattern I’m noticing. This happens with Dovewing too, btw.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 9, 2024 8:15:59 GMT -5
This would be great, if it were the end. But it's not. For some reason, he's back together with her at the end of the battle (No explanation is given) and the relationship continues. someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Dovewing have some sort of thought after the battle about “choosing her clan” or something and internally deciding to get with Bumblestripe at the very end of TLH? IIRC they weren’t in a relationship before that, it was more like they went on a date and Bumble’s interest was explicitly expressed, but she wasn’t really sure what to do about it until the end of the book when she finally decides to let go of Tigerheart (we all know that didn’t work long term, thanks Kate).
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Post by asrise on Jul 9, 2024 8:23:01 GMT -5
Not that I could find. But they do fight in the Great Battle together, and then the book acts like they're mates now. This isn't really saying anything though, because Dovewing choosing her clan does not necessarily mean being with Bumblestripe.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 9, 2024 9:10:25 GMT -5
Okay, so I skimmed through all of the Dovewing chapters in TFW and TLH for this, so I hope this settles something. (It probably won't) I took the time to include quotes! Whitewing:
Cinderheart:
Toadstep:
Ivypool:
Blossomfall:
And there's TLH. Here's all their interactions, starting with the training session and aftermath:
On their way to the Gathering:
And finally, the Great Battle:
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 9, 2024 9:28:09 GMT -5
This would be great, if it were the end. But it's not. For some reason, he's back together with her at the end of the battle (No explanation is given) and the relationship continues. someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Dovewing have some sort of thought after the battle about “choosing her clan” or something and internally deciding to get with Bumblestripe at the very end of TLH? The closest I can think of is when she lets Bumblestripe comfort her right after Firestar dies and doesn't look back when Tigerheart leaves, but in terms of an actual thought, could you maybe be thinking of one of these scenes? This is from TFW: And then there's her break-up with Tigerheart:
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Post by Whispering Willow on Jul 9, 2024 11:23:27 GMT -5
What’s a little weird to me is that the few scenes/examples people have used to declare Bumblestripe as manipulative just read to me as him being socially awkward. Boy means well but doesn’t have the best sense of time and place, and it backfires. Also, some of the examples people bring up straight up didn’t happen and they are misremembering (a common issue is Warriors discussions tbf). The “he manipulated Whitewing into talking on his behalf” thing is a great example. Really not trying to be an ass in saying this, but I also wonder sometimes if people are perhaps accidentally projecting negative personal experiences and it’s causing them to misremember the actual canon scenes. Again I don’t want to be rude but it’s a pattern I’m noticing. This happens with Dovewing too, btw. The injecting things that didn't actually happen is a problem in this debate that's existed for years. It poisons some other debates as well, I believe. Part of the problem is people hearing others say it and then repeating it without fact-checking (I have seen this, and then when called out, they've nothing to say or they admit that they didn't actually read the scenes), and some of it is people just...making assumptions and adding what they think actually occurred, with no in-text evidence for it. I kid you not, for the Whitewing thing, I have seen a couple of people fight over it, and when one person pointed out that Bumblestripe never asked Whitewing to talk to Dovewing, the other person was like, "Well, why would she talk to Dovewing about it if he didn't tell her to?" As if Whitewing has no agency to speak with her daughter.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 9, 2024 13:13:48 GMT -5
What’s a little weird to me is that the few scenes/examples people have used to declare Bumblestripe as manipulative just read to me as him being socially awkward. Boy means well but doesn’t have the best sense of time and place, and it backfires. Also, some of the examples people bring up straight up didn’t happen and they are misremembering (a common issue is Warriors discussions tbf). The “he manipulated Whitewing into talking on his behalf” thing is a great example. Really not trying to be an ass in saying this, but I also wonder sometimes if people are perhaps accidentally projecting negative personal experiences and it’s causing them to misremember the actual canon scenes. Again I don’t want to be rude but it’s a pattern I’m noticing. This happens with Dovewing too, btw. The injecting things that didn't actually happen is a problem in this debate that's existed for years. It poisons some other debates as well, I believe. Part of the problem is people hearing others say it and then repeating it without fact-checking (I have seen this, and then when called out, they've nothing to say or they admit that they didn't actually read the scenes), and some of it is people just...making assumptions and adding what they think actually occurred, with no in-text evidence for it. I kid you not, for the Whitewing thing, I have seen a couple of people fight over it, and when one person pointed out that Bumblestripe never asked Whitewing to talk to Dovewing, the other person was like, "Well, why would she talk to Dovewing about it if he didn't tell her to?" As if Whitewing has no agency to speak with her daughter. Yeah it happens a lot in SquirrelBramble debates too.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 9, 2024 13:14:09 GMT -5
someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Dovewing have some sort of thought after the battle about “choosing her clan” or something and internally deciding to get with Bumblestripe at the very end of TLH? The closest I can think of is when she lets Bumblestripe comfort her right after Firestar dies and doesn't look back when Tigerheart leaves, but in terms of an actual thought, could you maybe be thinking of one of these scenes? This is from TFW: And then there's her break-up with Tigerheart: That might be what I was thinking of!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 9, 2024 14:20:20 GMT -5
The closest I can think of is when she lets Bumblestripe comfort her right after Firestar dies and doesn't look back when Tigerheart leaves, but in terms of an actual thought, could you maybe be thinking of one of these scenes? This is from TFW: And then there's her break-up with Tigerheart: That might be what I was thinking of! There's also the fact that the the part where she lets Bumblestripe comfort her at the end of TLH, you have Tigerheart watching them before leaving camp, making it obvious about her choice by then. Not to mention DWS which comes right after, correct me if I'm wrong here, they're already mates. So that scene with her and Bumble at the end of TLH is confirmation they got together, and prior to the that, these two scenes above were just build up for that. I think people need to realize that BumbleDove didn't just "come out of no where" because of "pressure". She knew about his feelings for a while, and started to debate the idea of them being a thing whenever she realizes she and Tigerheart wouldn't work out. Which happened a LOT. Again, if people want a clingy, pushy, obsessive, boundary pushing cat, Tigerheart was literally the epitome of that, and did everything they think Bumblestripe was doing, if not worse. Tigerheart would hover ThunderClan boarders for Dovewing, kept looking at her during gatherings, would continuously try to persuade her to start up their relationships again even when she broke up with him for the gazillion times. He'd constantly try to talk to her even after betraying her trust in several situations like in TFW and TLH, bro was too busy thinking about himself that even Dove realized how selfish he was. And even when she didn't want to meet his eyes, he'd stare at her intensely until she did, pressuring her to respond to him in some way. And the biggest difference is that she actually TOLD him to stop several times and he never listened. Like I get it with Bumblestripe, cause she never communicated well with others in her own clan, but the fact she was made clear and firm toward Tigerheart many times and he'd STILL pressure her to meet him, or go out with him even when she kept feeling guilty, was weird. At least Bumblestripe's issue was just being socially awkward, and even then he'd give Dovewing space, Tigerheart never knew how to back off.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 9, 2024 14:28:37 GMT -5
The injecting things that didn't actually happen is a problem in this debate that's existed for years. It poisons some other debates as well, I believe. Part of the problem is people hearing others say it and then repeating it without fact-checking (I have seen this, and then when called out, they've nothing to say or they admit that they didn't actually read the scenes), and some of it is people just...making assumptions and adding what they think actually occurred, with no in-text evidence for it. I kid you not, for the Whitewing thing, I have seen a couple of people fight over it, and when one person pointed out that Bumblestripe never asked Whitewing to talk to Dovewing, the other person was like, "Well, why would she talk to Dovewing about it if he didn't tell her to?" As if Whitewing has no agency to speak with her daughter. Yeah it happens a lot in SquirrelBramble debates too. I genuinely thought we were past these things at this point since it's been years, but I guess not? I think one of the worst ones I've seen is people thinking Bumblestripe is now the way he is because he didn't get to be with Dovewing?? Which isn't true at all... They really want him to be Ashfur 2.0. Like I don't care for him much either, but the constant misinformation that goes around because of the self-projecting, when it comes to him (and Bramblestar along with other characters) is getting a bit ridiculous.
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Post by asrise on Jul 9, 2024 15:32:39 GMT -5
It won't get better. It's hard to fact check everything that you talk about, especially since most people don't have the books on hand. Even if you do, details still get lost, and eventually you end up just lying about what's in the books. I know I've done it before. I honestly can't blame people for misremembering in a series as large as Warriors, but it does lead to a lot of misinformation.
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Post by kitters on Jul 9, 2024 16:24:03 GMT -5
I, too, wish everyone could remember every quote and paragraph plus context before giving their opinion on how they personally interpreted the scene or characters. It's a waste of time ti read their post because I'm too good of a debater and having to inform them they're wrong is such a chore but I have to do it :/
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 9, 2024 17:23:36 GMT -5
I, too, wish everyone could remember every quote and paragraph plus context before giving their opinion on how they personally interpreted the scene or characters. It's a waste of time ti read their post because I'm too good of a debater and having to inform them they're wrong is such a chore but I have to do it :/ What I'm saying is just on subjects like this, that have been around for years at this point, it's like saying something is an apple when it's actually an orange, but then people still saying its an apple on purpose just because they don't like oranges. Even when I don't remember things I always say "correct me if I'm wrong" just in case I misremember something. And just because someone corrects another person it doesn't make it a "debate" or an "argument". It's fine for people to interpret something a certain way, that's their personal opinions, but to treat it as factual information toward another person, is also strange. Also, I mean no offense in any way with this reply, this is just a general statement I want to make more clear.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 9, 2024 22:29:12 GMT -5
It won't get better. It's hard to fact check everything that you talk about, especially since most people don't have the books on hand. Even if you do, details still get lost, and eventually you end up just lying about what's in the books. I know I've done it before. I honestly can't blame people for misremembering in a series as large as Warriors, but it does lead to a lot of misinformation. Yeah I can’t blame people too much for it in passing. I know I’ve definitely done it. I think what bothers me is when people like, really double down on a particular point in discourse (esp if it’s something they find upsetting) without double checking if they’re remembering right. I don’t expect everyone to have perfect memory of Warriors content - honestly impossible given the sheer quantity - but there does come a point of responsibility when people get into full arguments over it.
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