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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 10:27:09 GMT -5
The mods for this game have been continuously racist, calling an Indigenous person racist for finding the feather behind the ear offensive and even mocking hate crimes against black people as well as the BLM movement. They called the poster of this thread “anti-white” and “racist” for simply wanting the ugly feathers removed and an apology.
I am beyond words. I was so excited for the full release of this game only to find out that the mods behind it are horrible people. They replaced the feather with leaves, but refused to at least publicly apologize for everything they said. They even blocked the person who called them out for this instead of simply apologizing for the behavior of the game’s mods.
I am not touching this game until there’s a proper apology. Absolutely sickening.
Please only have civil discussion here. No arguing.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 10:38:55 GMT -5
Can we please not do the fricking feather discourse again. .-. I haven’t seen anything about it here before, and I feel it’s important to talk about.
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Post by Showers on Jun 6, 2021 10:58:03 GMT -5
Can we please not do the fricking feather discourse again. .-. native americans calling out racism isn't discourse
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 6, 2021 19:09:42 GMT -5
This is a pretty unimpressive callout document. It consisted of the callouter coming out guns blazing and when told by the devs that the game would not change, they got dragged into a semantics debate over whether something was racist or not. It comes off like the callouter just trying to "win" the argument in some truth bomb-y, epic burn way but it does not make them look good. The dev's attempt to pull a "you're racist" is just as asinine but it ends up making both parties look like immature 5 year olds. In the end though, I think that the dev's idea to have a toggle option isn't a bad idea, as more customization is a good thing. The callouter's stubborness at this does not put them in the best light, as they seem to think that repeating "you're still keeping the racist caricature" is some kind of epic turnaround in the argument. But getting dragged into an argument isn't really the problem here. The problem is this What even is the point of this? It does nothing but the make the callouter look like some wannabe badass trying to pull a hold-up. If the issue of feathers really is so serious, why would you ever take down the twitter post? It should be noted at this point of course that I am on the side that feathers being used in a made-up culture really isn't offensive. There's only so much that a pre-stone age culture can do to adorn themselves, and even the Neanderthals used feathers, it's kind of ingrained in human history to wear feathers for status. Obviously stuff like Indian mascots is cultural appropriation because that is very clear about what it is copying from, but feathers alone are far too generic to label as cultural appropriation. That all being said, I'll give the callouter this, the dev does seem to be a total toolbox. Attempting to call them racist was a really dumb move. So while the feather issue might not be all that salient for me, the dev is hardly a good guy in this affair.
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Post by kitters on Jun 6, 2021 19:37:39 GMT -5
But getting dragged into an argument isn't really the problem here. The problem is this What even is the point of this? It does nothing but the make the callouter look like some wannabe badass trying to pull a hold-up. If the issue of feathers really is so serious, why would you ever take down the twitter post? Your entire post aside (i only skimmed sorry) I just felt like I could answer this in particular because I'm not sure I see the issue? If someone is using racist stereotypes/caricatures and gets called out for it, the correct thing to do is apologize and remove the racist thing. They're asking for a sincere apology and to see that the game devs will change their behavior. If that happens then they will delete the "boycott" thread. The explanation of the feather in the hair being offensive will always be around, but they clearly don't want to hurt the game if the devs promise to do better. I don't think they're a "wannabe badass" they look like some kid who is upset at their culture being used incorrectly or without proper knowledge/respect.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 6, 2021 20:01:56 GMT -5
But getting dragged into an argument isn't really the problem here. The problem is this What even is the point of this? It does nothing but the make the callouter look like some wannabe badass trying to pull a hold-up. If the issue of feathers really is so serious, why would you ever take down the twitter post? Your entire post aside (i only skimmed sorry) I just felt like I could answer this in particular because I'm not sure I see the issue? If someone is using racist stereotypes/caricatures and gets called out for it, the correct thing to do is apologize and remove the racist thing. They're asking for a sincere apology and to see that the game devs will change their behavior. If that happens then they will delete the "boycott" thread. The explanation of the feather in the hair being offensive will always be around, but they clearly don't want to hurt the game if the devs promise to do better. I don't think they're a "wannabe badass" they look like some kid who is upset at their culture being used incorrectly or without proper knowledge/respect. But why delete the thread? Surely just the fact that the option is no longer in game would make it very obvious that the issue has been resolved, and attaching a reply stating as much would suffice if details really needed to be mentioned. Deleting the thread conditionally based on the developers' apology just seems incredibly bizarre and adds to the weird air in the callout. I don't like callouts that delete themselves based off of an apology or some other concession. If you make one, then you ought to stand by it if it's true and leave it up for posterity.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 20:05:33 GMT -5
But getting dragged into an argument isn't really the problem here. The problem is this What even is the point of this? It does nothing but the make the callouter look like some wannabe badass trying to pull a hold-up. If the issue of feathers really is so serious, why would you ever take down the twitter post? Your entire post aside (i only skimmed sorry) I just felt like I could answer this in particular because I'm not sure I see the issue? If someone is using racist stereotypes/caricatures and gets called out for it, the correct thing to do is apologize and remove the racist thing. They're asking for a sincere apology and to see that the game devs will change their behavior. If that happens then they will delete the "boycott" thread. The explanation of the feather in the hair being offensive will always be around, but they clearly don't want to hurt the game if the devs promise to do better. I don't think they're a "wannabe badass" they look like some kid who is upset at their culture being used incorrectly or without proper knowledge/respect. I think that’s the main issue. The fact that they didn’t listen to someone of Indigenous culture, apologize, and go ahead and switch out the feathers with the leaves. They instead kept insisting that they were keeping the feathers, telling someone of the culture in question that it shouldn’t be offensive to them, and calling them racist and anti-white. That isn’t what really tipped the iceberg for me though. They made a decent apology eventually in the discord server and got rid of the feathers. However, a lot of things have been brought up that some of the devs and mods have said. One of them mocked BLM protests last year, made racist comments (I even saw a lynching joke... which is absolutely HORRID), and even harrassed a transgender person. The fact that those in question are doing this without any consequence will only encourage them to continue.
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Post by kitters on Jun 6, 2021 20:09:46 GMT -5
Your entire post aside (i only skimmed sorry) I just felt like I could answer this in particular because I'm not sure I see the issue? If someone is using racist stereotypes/caricatures and gets called out for it, the correct thing to do is apologize and remove the racist thing. They're asking for a sincere apology and to see that the game devs will change their behavior. If that happens then they will delete the "boycott" thread. The explanation of the feather in the hair being offensive will always be around, but they clearly don't want to hurt the game if the devs promise to do better. I don't think they're a "wannabe badass" they look like some kid who is upset at their culture being used incorrectly or without proper knowledge/respect. But why delete the thread? Surely just the fact that the option is no longer in game would make it very obvious that the issue has been resolved, and attaching a reply stating as much would suffice if details really needed to be mentioned. Deleting the thread conditionally based on the developers' apology just seems incredibly bizarre and adds to the weird air in the callout. I don't like callouts that delete themselves based off of an apology or some other concession. If you make one, then you ought to stand by it if it's true and leave it up for posterity. yes but this person is a minor who is doing this very publicly under the eyes of many people, so I'm not surprised they're not doing everything 100% perfectly. I just think this is a very small gripe to have.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 6, 2021 20:29:31 GMT -5
Your entire post aside (i only skimmed sorry) I just felt like I could answer this in particular because I'm not sure I see the issue? If someone is using racist stereotypes/caricatures and gets called out for it, the correct thing to do is apologize and remove the racist thing. They're asking for a sincere apology and to see that the game devs will change their behavior. If that happens then they will delete the "boycott" thread. The explanation of the feather in the hair being offensive will always be around, but they clearly don't want to hurt the game if the devs promise to do better. I don't think they're a "wannabe badass" they look like some kid who is upset at their culture being used incorrectly or without proper knowledge/respect. I think that’s the main issue. The fact that they didn’t listen to someone of Indigenous culture, apologize, and go ahead and switch out the feathers with the leaves. They instead kept insisting that they were keeping the feathers, telling someone of the culture in question that it shouldn’t be offensive to them, and calling them racist and anti-white. That isn’t what really tipped the iceberg for me though. They made a decent apology eventually in the discord server and got rid of the feathers. However, a lot of things have been brought up that some of the devs and mods have said. One of them mocked BLM protests last year, made racist comments (I even saw a lynching joke... which is absolutely HORRID), and even harrassed a transgender person. The fact that those in question are doing this without any consequence will only encourage them to continue. All of the stuff on the bottom is far more substantial and if it is true it is far more serious. However, the callout post and indeed the OP of this entire thread presents no proof of this. Instead we get documentation of what amounts to an incredibly petty squabble over an issue that was apparently already resolved. Let's see the bottom stuff, that is far more damning. That's the problem. Yes, they're a minor, so morally judging them for it is wrong. But by the exact same token, it also makes them have less credibility.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 20:59:58 GMT -5
I think that’s the main issue. The fact that they didn’t listen to someone of Indigenous culture, apologize, and go ahead and switch out the feathers with the leaves. They instead kept insisting that they were keeping the feathers, telling someone of the culture in question that it shouldn’t be offensive to them, and calling them racist and anti-white. That isn’t what really tipped the iceberg for me though. They made a decent apology eventually in the discord server and got rid of the feathers. However, a lot of things have been brought up that some of the devs and mods have said. One of them mocked BLM protests last year, made racist comments (I even saw a lynching joke... which is absolutely HORRID), and even harrassed a transgender person. The fact that those in question are doing this without any consequence will only encourage them to continue. All of the stuff on the bottom is far more substantial and if it is true it is far more serious. However, the callout post and indeed the OP of this entire thread presents no proof of this. Instead we get documentation of what amounts to an incredibly petty squabble over an issue that was apparently already resolved. Let's see the bottom stuff, that is far more damning. That's the problem. Yes, they're a minor, so morally judging them for it is wrong. But by the exact same token, it also makes them have less credibility. Most of the info not in the doc I got from comments, quote retweets, and other first-hand accounts of things I’ve heard about the server. That doesn’t mean they’re true, but I believe screenshots are proof enough.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 6, 2021 21:01:42 GMT -5
All of the stuff on the bottom is far more substantial and if it is true it is far more serious. However, the callout post and indeed the OP of this entire thread presents no proof of this. Instead we get documentation of what amounts to an incredibly petty squabble over an issue that was apparently already resolved. Let's see the bottom stuff, that is far more damning. That's the problem. Yes, they're a minor, so morally judging them for it is wrong. But by the exact same token, it also makes them have less credibility. Most of the info not in the doc I got from comments, quote retweets, and other first-hand accounts of things I’ve heard about the server. That doesn’t mean they’re true, but I believe screenshots are proof enough. Putting those in the OP would make this thread a lot more educational and be far more effective dissuading people from supporting these devs.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 21:04:50 GMT -5
Most of the info not in the doc I got from comments, quote retweets, and other first-hand accounts of things I’ve heard about the server. That doesn’t mean they’re true, but I believe screenshots are proof enough. Putting those in the OP would make this thread a lot more educational and be far more effective dissuading people from supporting these devs. Yeah, it’s not very organized. They should’ve added those things to the thread with permission from said people, but I guess the OP didn’t consider it much? Idk, this could be their first callout post.
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Post by MadameDelune on Jun 6, 2021 21:09:20 GMT -5
there's no problem from what i've seen. Nobody's being racist. There are plenty of feathers that have been used in history from all kinds of cultures. How is putting a feather on a cat making this suddenly a "sickening" act towards poc? The fact that it's also a minor who's complaining is just the cherry on top. They really just tryna cause drama at this point.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 21:21:16 GMT -5
there's no problem from what i've seen. Nobody's being racist. There are plenty of feathers that have been used in history from all kinds of cultures. How is putting a feather on a cat making this suddenly a "sickening" act towards poc? The fact that it's also a minor who's complaining is just the cherry on top. They really just tryna cause drama at this point. At this point, it’s not really the feathers that’s the issue anymore. I personally had no issue with the feathers until I learned that these Indigenous people have found it offensive and have been trying to speak up for a good while now. I mean, what harm would have it done for the devs to listen to the Indigenous people who were offended, apologize, then replace the feathers instead of making a fight out of it? It’s not like it’s white people or other POC who were mainly bothered, but actual Indigenous people. The main issue is the fact that they refused to listen to an actual Indigenous person and called THEM racist and “anti-white” for expressing their feelings and kindly asking them to remove the feathers. They tried to invalidate their own feelings. Not only that, the devs and mods have a reputation for saying inexcusable things in the past, as provided in the doc, comment section, and quote retweets.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Jun 6, 2021 22:09:42 GMT -5
I agree this doc wasn’t very well put together but egardless of your opinion on the feathers the way they handled the concerns regarding them was unprofessional imo, and the racist jokes are disgusting
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 6, 2021 22:25:08 GMT -5
I agree this doc wasn’t very well put together but egardless of your opinion on the feathers the way they handled the concerns regarding them was unprofessional imo, and the racist jokes are disgusting Right, I think that's the problem here. The devs came off as incredibly immature with comebacks on par with "I know you are but what am I" and if the racism and transphobia stuff is true, then that's really bad. The problem is that I have hither to fore not seen any proof of the latter and while the former is really embarrassing and kind of pathetic it's also a far cry removed in severity.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 6, 2021 22:59:54 GMT -5
Just gonna say this, as an indigenous person in the fandom:
non-indigenous people do NOT get to tell indigenous folks about what is offensive to us and what isn't.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 23:17:18 GMT -5
Just gonna say this, as an indigenous person in the fandom: non-indigenous people do NOT get to tell indigenous folks about what is offensive to us and what isn't. Yeah, and that’s what disgusted me the most. The (seemingly) white dev behind WCUE was trying to tell an actual Indigenous person that they should not feel offended. They were completely trying to invalidate their feelings on something that directly impacts them. I am white, but when it comes to situations like this, I always try to listen to those it directly impacts. In this case, I want to make sure to listen to what Indigenous people believe and have to say about the situation. I want to aid in their efforts, but make sure my voice is not louder than their own. I posted this with a direct link to the Twitter thread to bring awareness to this situation and discuss it. And because I am a white ally, I will also be boycotting the game for the time being. Thank you for speaking up on this!
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 6, 2021 23:31:37 GMT -5
Where is the source for these? Just saying you got them somewhere isn't really a good statement of proof. Screenshots were mentioned, so they ought to be ponied up.
Just to be clear, I couldn't care less if this thing lives or dies, but the accusations made are hefty and far beyond the scope of the linked twitter post. And hefty accusations require proof.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 23:46:40 GMT -5
Where is the source for these? Just saying you got them somewhere isn't really a good statement of proof. Screenshots were mentioned, so they ought to be ponied up. Just to be clear, I couldn't care less if this thing lives or dies, but the accusations made are hefty and far beyond the scope of the linked twitter post. And hefty accusations require proof. The BLM comments: Lynching joke talk: Transphobia mention, though with no screenshot proof: Here’s another thread: Not to mention, they also made jokes about the capitol insurrection and attempted coup when it happened.
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 6, 2021 23:57:58 GMT -5
I do not want this discussion to go too far, so I will be dropping it for now.
I do not want to speak too much on this issue, as it doesn’t directly affect me. However, I do want to bring awareness to this situation as well as the boycott. The actions of some of the devs and the mods behind this game were disgusting, especially towards a BIPOC minor.
Form your own opinions on this situation. I do not intend to cause any discourse.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 7, 2021 0:03:23 GMT -5
Where is the source for these? Just saying you got them somewhere isn't really a good statement of proof. Screenshots were mentioned, so they ought to be ponied up. Just to be clear, I couldn't care less if this thing lives or dies, but the accusations made are hefty and far beyond the scope of the linked twitter post. And hefty accusations require proof. The BLM comments: Lynching joke talk: Transphobia mention, though with no screenshot proof: Here’s another thread: Not to mention, they also made jokes about the capitol insurrection and attempted coup when it happened. Great, now that's much worse and definitely should have been the big ticket evidence. The lynching evidence is a little weak because it's just the aftermath, but the first one is obvious and the general kind of backpedaling fits in fine. Devs suck.
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Post by MadameDelune on Jun 7, 2021 0:06:50 GMT -5
Dang that’s horrible of them. I’ll def not be joining the discord server or supporting them in any way.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jun 7, 2021 5:19:20 GMT -5
As someone who's black and indigenous....honestly the feather discourse makes me roll my eyes. It doesn't bother me personally, but I've never seen it as offensive. It holds as much water to me as that entire situation with the Leopardstar MAP, and as pointed out, Feathers are just way too generic of a design. However, what I actually DO find offensive is how the devs handled the situation, and the horrible jokes they made in the screenshots. That's actual damning evidence that makes me upset. And I also do agree with the sentiment that non-indigenous and non-black people shouldn't be telling us what we should be offended by cause that on its own is offending. I don't know why it's so hard for people to not speak over bipoc...
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 7, 2021 21:59:59 GMT -5
Summarized: I am disgusted by what happened and behavior like that should never be tolerated. I've never heard of this game before, but consider it boycotted. Also, the moment a white person talks about race, especially calling another race "racist", they immediately lose my interest and potential support. Smh.
(Re-typed above because I ramble.)
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 7, 2021 22:12:34 GMT -5
On a side note, I realized yesterday that one of the Warriors canvases I had ordered has a she-cat with feathers in her fur behind one of her ears. I don't know how I missed that detail. That's coming down tonight. Other people look out for this canvas type so you don't make the same error I did. It's two cats on a wooden dock touching foreheads.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 7, 2021 22:43:21 GMT -5
Just gonna say this, as an indigenous person in the fandom: non-indigenous people do NOT get to tell indigenous folks about what is offensive to us and what isn't. Just asking because you're an indigenous person and therefore your say is the right way, or however it goes. Do you think them replacing the feathers with leaves is a way for them to continue to be racist without being directly racist? A scapegoat, I mean.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jun 8, 2021 0:10:47 GMT -5
as a nine year old, i regularly would find feathers on the ground from blue jays and stuck them behind my ear because i thought it was pretty. so ... was that racist? genuine question. i do not understand how something as unoriginal as feather decoration must automatically mean racist caricature. i would think the positivity of portrayal and intention matter a lot. after all, blackface regularly used large lips to offensively depict african americans, but that doesn't make all figures with big lips a caricature of black people.
what is potentially my most controversial comment ever on this forum (and ive said a lot of shit in the past three years): the perception of offense by a group or especially by an individual member of said group does not objectively indicate vulgarity. offense is a subjective thing. obviously, we should listen very attentively when historically oppressed communities tell us something is derogatory and give their view great weight; however, such claims are not de facto truths, nor are they so absolutely above thoughtful criticism or challenge by someone outside that group. i.e. just because a particular member of a traditionally marginalized community claims something is inherently offensive to their identity does not mean that the rest of society must accept that claim without question.
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Post by kitters on Jun 8, 2021 1:23:09 GMT -5
as a nine year old, i regularly would find feathers on the ground from blue jays and stuck them behind my ear because i thought it was pretty. so ... was that racist? genuine question. i do not understand how something as unoriginal as feather decoration must automatically mean racist caricature. i would think the positivity of portrayal and intention matter a lot. after all, blackface regularly used large lips to offensively depict african americans, but that doesn't make all figures with big lips a caricature of black people. what is potentially my most controversial comment ever on this forum (and ive said a lot of shit in the past three years): the perception of offense by a group or especially by an individual member of said group does not objectively indicate vulgarity. offense is a subjective thing. obviously, we should listen very attentively when historically oppressed communities tell us something is derogatory and give their view great weight; however, such claims are not de facto truths, nor are they so absolutely above thoughtful criticism or challenge by someone outside that group. i.e. just because a particular member of a traditionally marginalized community claims something is inherently offensive to their identity does not mean that the rest of society must accept that claim without question. 1. I think the issue when it comes to the feather in the hair is that, if you recognize there is something wrong with a particular design element, you should avoid using it. Obviously a child innocently putting a feather in their hair isn't racist. But the game devs here were made aware of the issue, refused to listen or read the doc explaining why it should be removed, and acted extremely unprofessionally. That is the main issue I think. 2. Well no comment on the meat of your take here but I just want to say no one is saying you're not allowed to challenge the notion that it's "vulgar". Like people have been doing that for months lol and you're not racist for having questions but if a large chunk of a marginalized group of people are saying "please don't do this, because x", as is happening here, the best thing to do is listen and avoid using the offensive thing. It's very easy.
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