Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 8, 2021 1:28:21 GMT -5
as a nine year old, i regularly would find feathers on the ground from blue jays and stuck them behind my ear because i thought it was pretty. so ... was that racist? genuine question. i do not understand how something as unoriginal as feather decoration must automatically mean racist caricature. i would think the positivity of portrayal and intention matter a lot. after all, blackface regularly used large lips to offensively depict african americans, but that doesn't make all figures with big lips a caricature of black people. what is potentially my most controversial comment ever on this forum (and ive said a lot of shit in the past three years): the perception of offense by a group or especially by an individual member of said group does not objectively indicate vulgarity. offense is a subjective thing. obviously, we should listen very attentively when historically oppressed communities tell us something is derogatory and give their view great weight; however, such claims are not de facto truths, nor are they so absolutely above thoughtful criticism or challenge by someone outside that group. i.e. just because a particular member of a traditionally marginalized community claims something is inherently offensive to their identity does not mean that the rest of society must accept that claim without question. To roughly quote Kit (the person who founded this Twitter thread), the stereotype of Indigenous people wearing feathers was a mockery created by white colonists in an attempt to make the whites back home see them as "barbaric" and was a form of disgusting humor to them, and it worked very well. There is a history behind this you know, and it continues today. It's no better than blackface. The warriors series has many racist stereotypes. The Clans are xenophobic towards outsiders, "medicine cats" are a racist mockery of Indigenous "medicine men/women", their spiritual belief in StarClan is rooted in racism and the way they go about it, the Tribe of Rushing Water as a whole is racist, from the way they interpret signs, to their names, to the Tribe's name itself, and the Clan cats say they "speak in a weird accent", which is clearly racist and anti-POC and anti-Indigenous. Heck, the main groups in the series are called "Clans" and "Tribes" and they are portrayed to be largely violent. From the politics, to the naming system, to their beliefs, everything about the Warriors series is just a bunch of alt-right white propaganda. Coming out of quote here, after my eyes were opened this morning, I'm boycotting the series. I'm burning the books I own in my room and I will no longer participate in Warriors discussions. I'll remain on the site because there's genuinely some good people here, but it is encouraged that everyone does the same.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 8, 2021 9:25:24 GMT -5
as a nine year old, i regularly would find feathers on the ground from blue jays and stuck them behind my ear because i thought it was pretty. so ... was that racist? genuine question. i do not understand how something as unoriginal as feather decoration must automatically mean racist caricature. i would think the positivity of portrayal and intention matter a lot. after all, blackface regularly used large lips to offensively depict african americans, but that doesn't make all figures with big lips a caricature of black people. what is potentially my most controversial comment ever on this forum (and ive said a lot of shit in the past three years): the perception of offense by a group or especially by an individual member of said group does not objectively indicate vulgarity. offense is a subjective thing. obviously, we should listen very attentively when historically oppressed communities tell us something is derogatory and give their view great weight; however, such claims are not de facto truths, nor are they so absolutely above thoughtful criticism or challenge by someone outside that group. i.e. just because a particular member of a traditionally marginalized community claims something is inherently offensive to their identity does not mean that the rest of society must accept that claim without question. To roughly quote Kit (the person who founded this Twitter thread), the stereotype of Indigenous people wearing feathers was a mockery created by white colonists in an attempt to make the whites back home see them as "barbaric" and was a form of disgusting humor to them, and it worked very well. There is a history behind this you know, and it continues today. It's no better than blackface. The warriors series has many racist stereotypes. The Clans are xenophobic towards outsiders, "medicine cats" are a racist mockery of Indigenous "medicine men/women", their spiritual belief in StarClan is rooted in racism and the way they go about it, the Tribe of Rushing Water as a whole is racist, from the way they interpret signs, to their names, to the Tribe's name itself, and the Clan cats say they "speak in a weird accent", which is clearly racist and anti-POC and anti-Indigenous. Heck, the main groups in the series are called "Clans" and "Tribes" and they are portrayed to be largely violent. From the politics, to the naming system, to their beliefs, everything about the Warriors series is just a bunch of alt-right white propaganda. Coming out of quote here, after my eyes were opened this morning, I'm boycotting the series. I'm burning the books I own in my room and I will no longer participate in Warriors discussions. I'll remain on the site because there's genuinely some good people here, but it is encouraged that everyone does the same. That seems incredibly dramatic. The Tribe is problematic but the rest of the stuff you mention isn't all that substantial. The clans are clearly not an analogue for Indians, and this is evident in just how different the Tribe is to them (problematic as they are). As far as feathers go, it is quite possibly one of the most common ornamentations used by ANY culture. It is reaching to claim them as a unique experience to only a single culture.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Jun 8, 2021 10:20:31 GMT -5
as a nine year old, i regularly would find feathers on the ground from blue jays and stuck them behind my ear because i thought it was pretty. so ... was that racist? genuine question. i do not understand how something as unoriginal as feather decoration must automatically mean racist caricature. i would think the positivity of portrayal and intention matter a lot. after all, blackface regularly used large lips to offensively depict african americans, but that doesn't make all figures with big lips a caricature of black people. what is potentially my most controversial comment ever on this forum (and ive said a lot of shit in the past three years): the perception of offense by a group or especially by an individual member of said group does not objectively indicate vulgarity. offense is a subjective thing. obviously, we should listen very attentively when historically oppressed communities tell us something is derogatory and give their view great weight; however, such claims are not de facto truths, nor are they so absolutely above thoughtful criticism or challenge by someone outside that group. i.e. just because a particular member of a traditionally marginalized community claims something is inherently offensive to their identity does not mean that the rest of society must accept that claim without question. To roughly quote Kit (the person who founded this Twitter thread), the stereotype of Indigenous people wearing feathers was a mockery created by white colonists in an attempt to make the whites back home see them as "barbaric" and was a form of disgusting humor to them, and it worked very well. There is a history behind this you know, and it continues today. It's no better than blackface. The warriors series has many racist stereotypes. The Clans are xenophobic towards outsiders, "medicine cats" are a racist mockery of Indigenous "medicine men/women", their spiritual belief in StarClan is rooted in racism and the way they go about it, the Tribe of Rushing Water as a whole is racist, from the way they interpret signs, to their names, to the Tribe's name itself, and the Clan cats say they "speak in a weird accent", which is clearly racist and anti-POC and anti-Indigenous. Heck, the main groups in the series are called "Clans" and "Tribes" and they are portrayed to be largely violent. From the politics, to the naming system, to their beliefs, everything about the Warriors series is just a bunch of alt-right white propaganda. Coming out of quote here, after my eyes were opened this morning, I'm boycotting the series. I'm burning the books I own in my room and I will no longer participate in Warriors discussions. I'll remain on the site because there's genuinely some good people here, but it is encouraged that everyone does the same. please don't burn books
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Post by Brindlefern on Jun 8, 2021 11:38:52 GMT -5
If you're going to get rid of books you spent more money than you have anything else it's more beneficial for you to sell them off or give them away to someone who ACTUALLY wants them. Don't do that fricking "Imma burn these books that are 'problematic' just because I think they are now" thing, it's a waste of time, money, and resources to do so. Not only that, but a lot of us that bought the books or have them have them digitally, are you suggesting we throw our e-books and laptops and computers out the window now that we spent money on them?
Also calling Warrior Cats nothing but "a bunch of alt-right white propaganda" has to be the most ridiculous take I have ever seen in this fandom yet. Do you honest to god believe the Erins intended to be racist (I don't think they are because I'm not reading deep into this nor do I want to), because that's just what it's starting to read like. Keep irl politics out of these mystical cat books. An addendum to add is I'm not a white person, I'm a black woman, so I know what it's like to be oppressed.
Do NOT burn the books because you're honestly wasting energy doing so, and for the love of god, don't suggest that everyone do it either or boycott the books just for one damn FANGAME's shitty devs and what's simply a just case of unfortunate implications in the main series. =.= Honestly the more I hear about sudden bad people in shit I gain an interest in, the more jaded I get as it happens way too much nowadays to where I might as well not care at this point.
Do not debate with me on this, I refuse to get deep into this discourse and frankly I just needed to say something after that imo rather ridonkulous take.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2021 12:14:26 GMT -5
as a nine year old, i regularly would find feathers on the ground from blue jays and stuck them behind my ear because i thought it was pretty. so ... was that racist? genuine question. i do not understand how something as unoriginal as feather decoration must automatically mean racist caricature. i would think the positivity of portrayal and intention matter a lot. after all, blackface regularly used large lips to offensively depict african americans, but that doesn't make all figures with big lips a caricature of black people. what is potentially my most controversial comment ever on this forum (and ive said a lot of shit in the past three years): the perception of offense by a group or especially by an individual member of said group does not objectively indicate vulgarity. offense is a subjective thing. obviously, we should listen very attentively when historically oppressed communities tell us something is derogatory and give their view great weight; however, such claims are not de facto truths, nor are they so absolutely above thoughtful criticism or challenge by someone outside that group. i.e. just because a particular member of a traditionally marginalized community claims something is inherently offensive to their identity does not mean that the rest of society must accept that claim without question. To roughly quote Kit (the person who founded this Twitter thread), the stereotype of Indigenous people wearing feathers was a mockery created by white colonists in an attempt to make the whites back home see them as "barbaric" and was a form of disgusting humor to them, and it worked very well. There is a history behind this you know, and it continues today. It's no better than blackface. The warriors series has many racist stereotypes. The Clans are xenophobic towards outsiders, "medicine cats" are a racist mockery of Indigenous "medicine men/women", their spiritual belief in StarClan is rooted in racism and the way they go about it, the Tribe of Rushing Water as a whole is racist, from the way they interpret signs, to their names, to the Tribe's name itself, and the Clan cats say they "speak in a weird accent", which is clearly racist and anti-POC and anti-Indigenous. Heck, the main groups in the series are called "Clans" and "Tribes" and they are portrayed to be largely violent. From the politics, to the naming system, to their beliefs, everything about the Warriors series is just a bunch of alt-right white propaganda. Coming out of quote here, after my eyes were opened this morning, I'm boycotting the series. I'm burning the books I own in my room and I will no longer participate in Warriors discussions. I'll remain on the site because there's genuinely some good people here, but it is encouraged that everyone does the same. Okay the Tribe sucks, I'll give you that. But you are just overreacting with everything else. Alt-right white propaganda?? If you reach any further you'll hurt your back. It's a shoddily written kids series about cats where they can't even keep characters' names straight, not some deep insight into our society. Why insert politics into it and get so worked up you want to BURN the books and waste trees and your own money. If you're so vexed, sell or donate the books, I'm sure some kids would be delighted to read them.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jun 8, 2021 12:19:25 GMT -5
Swear this be the book that alot of the fandom are now reading when it comes to the discussions that are going on: post pictures
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Post by Mothdapple on Jun 8, 2021 13:12:18 GMT -5
To roughly quote Kit (the person who founded this Twitter thread), the stereotype of Indigenous people wearing feathers was a mockery created by white colonists in an attempt to make the whites back home see them as "barbaric" and was a form of disgusting humor to them, and it worked very well. There is a history behind this you know, and it continues today. It's no better than blackface. The warriors series has many racist stereotypes. The Clans are xenophobic towards outsiders, "medicine cats" are a racist mockery of Indigenous "medicine men/women", their spiritual belief in StarClan is rooted in racism and the way they go about it, the Tribe of Rushing Water as a whole is racist, from the way they interpret signs, to their names, to the Tribe's name itself, and the Clan cats say they "speak in a weird accent", which is clearly racist and anti-POC and anti-Indigenous. Heck, the main groups in the series are called "Clans" and "Tribes" and they are portrayed to be largely violent. From the politics, to the naming system, to their beliefs, everything about the Warriors series is just a bunch of alt-right white propaganda. Coming out of quote here, after my eyes were opened this morning, I'm boycotting the series. I'm burning the books I own in my room and I will no longer participate in Warriors discussions. I'll remain on the site because there's genuinely some good people here, but it is encouraged that everyone does the same. Okay the Tribe sucks, I'll give you that. But you are just overreacting with everything else. Alt-right white propaganda?? If you reach any further you'll hurt your back. It's a shoddily written kids series about cats where they can't even keep characters' names straight, not some deep insight into our society. Why insert politics into it and get so worked up you want to BURN the books and waste trees and your own money. If you're so vexed, sell or donate the books, I'm sure some kids would be delighted to read them. Agreed. Also, I completely disagree with their alt-right point. It does have some alt-right aspects I suppose but it’s not that deep. And even then, the Clans live in an socialist-like society in the Clans were food is fairly shared and they pretty much have free healthcare. I think if it was alt-right, the leader, deputy, and strongest warriors would be fed before the elders and kits. Either way, it’s still not that deep. It’s kids books about talking cats. I know there’s probably kids in need who might love to read their books.
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Post by Seven on Jun 8, 2021 13:21:17 GMT -5
On a side note, I realized yesterday that one of the Warriors canvases I had ordered has a she-cat with feathers in her fur behind one of her ears. I don't know how I missed that detail. That's coming down tonight. Other people look out for this canvas type so you don't make the same error I did. It's two cats on a wooden dock touching foreheads. Was it this one? Thats not warrior cats. its two OCs by Lokidrawz and I'm pretty sure the canvas is stolen artwork.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 8, 2021 14:20:09 GMT -5
I get being upset with the series and some stuff really is outdated (ex: the Tribe), but calling it propaganda and burning the books? That's an overreaction if I ever heard one. This is a children's book series about talking cats and I more than anyone am aware how powerful the media can be, but I really doubt this is what the Erins were going for in 2003. And it's entirely possible to like a piece of media while still criticizing it. If you don't want them anymore, then at least donate them or give them to a library or something. Doing something as extreme as burning books is just a waste of money and trees and might also be harmful for the environment.
There are far better ways to call out bigotry than this.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 8, 2021 14:53:33 GMT -5
Note: Despite the fact I said I was coming out of quote, I was just coming out of that particular quote. I've heard a couple of POC claim the entire series is propaganda from the alt-right, and it is my duty, my responsibility, as a white person to believe them, and the same goes for all whites. I wouldn't be a good ally if I turned my back to them.
No, I won't burn my books, I admit I was overreacting a little too much there. I'll simply keep them as a piece of history, of what should not be done in literature. And yes I admit, the Tribe is awful, but the Clans have their problems as well, even if they're not as grand.
Thanks for all of your input though, I read through all of it and it was all quite... passionate.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jun 8, 2021 15:05:41 GMT -5
Note: Despite the fact I said I was coming out of quote, I was just coming out of that particular quote. I've heard a couple of POC claim the entire series is propaganda from the alt-right, and it is my duty, my responsibility, as a white person to believe them, and the same goes for all whites. I wouldn't be a good ally if I turned my back to them. I'm a Latina woman who's descended from the Inca and I still think you're overreacting. It's great you're trying to be an ally, but maybe you should do your own research on what far right media actually is and then reach your own conclusion. Because here's the thing, PoC can blow things out of proportion as well, just like anyone else. Not every woke person is going to be right. And the Erins should absolutely be criticized for some of the choices they made (again, the Tribe), but come on.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Jun 8, 2021 15:31:49 GMT -5
why did these people say the series is propaganda for the alt-right? is vicky/one of the writers alt-right or something?
there's definitely problematic elements of these books and i don't think its invalid to criticize them but i really think you're reaching here. i have never seen a non-white fan or former fan of this series call the books alt-right propaganda. i've seen a couple of people point out that the structure of the clans would have unfortunate implications if they were human characters but i don't think that's the same thing. if you actually do research on fascist idealogy, the clan system does not fit it. the weak are fed before the strong, she-cat are equal to toms, and while there is animosity between the clans sometimes and a lot of "clan pride" it's not as extreme as it would be in a fascist society.
and like i've seen people on tumblr say that steven universe was fascist propaganda bc they redeemed all the villains so like. the internet is filled with ridiculous hot takes
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 15:53:40 GMT -5
Just gonna say this, as an indigenous person in the fandom: non-indigenous people do NOT get to tell indigenous folks about what is offensive to us and what isn't. Just asking because you're an indigenous person and therefore your say is the right way, or however it goes. Do you think them replacing the feathers with leaves is a way for them to continue to be racist without being directly racist? A scapegoat, I mean. I don't have a problem with them using leaves.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 15:57:20 GMT -5
Also this whole thread is going down the drain. I think we would all have to just agree to disagree at this point.
Second: indigenous people are not 'Indians'. We are NOT from India lmao.
Call us Native Americans, First Nations, Aborigines, Indigenous, anything but 'Indian'.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jun 8, 2021 15:59:20 GMT -5
Just asking because you're an indigenous person and therefore your say is the right way, or however it goes. Do you think them replacing the feathers with leaves is a way for them to continue to be racist without being directly racist? A scapegoat, I mean. I don't have a problem with them using leaves. Yeah I don't see how leaves are an "indirect way" for anything bad either. Med. Cat designs have incorporated leaves (I.E herbs) behind the ear for years, alongside other plants like holly or flowers or berries. I've done my fair share of it. It's harmless. Leaves are cute, leave (heh) them alone.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 16:01:24 GMT -5
To roughly quote Kit (the person who founded this Twitter thread), the stereotype of Indigenous people wearing feathers was a mockery created by white colonists in an attempt to make the whites back home see them as "barbaric" and was a form of disgusting humor to them, and it worked very well. There is a history behind this you know, and it continues today. It's no better than blackface. The warriors series has many racist stereotypes. The Clans are xenophobic towards outsiders, "medicine cats" are a racist mockery of Indigenous "medicine men/women", their spiritual belief in StarClan is rooted in racism and the way they go about it, the Tribe of Rushing Water as a whole is racist, from the way they interpret signs, to their names, to the Tribe's name itself, and the Clan cats say they "speak in a weird accent", which is clearly racist and anti-POC and anti-Indigenous. Heck, the main groups in the series are called "Clans" and "Tribes" and they are portrayed to be largely violent. From the politics, to the naming system, to their beliefs, everything about the Warriors series is just a bunch of alt-right white propaganda. Coming out of quote here, after my eyes were opened this morning, I'm boycotting the series. I'm burning the books I own in my room and I will no longer participate in Warriors discussions. I'll remain on the site because there's genuinely some good people here, but it is encouraged that everyone does the same. That seems incredibly dramatic. The Tribe is problematic but the rest of the stuff you mention isn't all that substantial. The clans are clearly not an analogue for Indians, and this is evident in just how different the Tribe is to them (problematic as they are). As far as feathers go, it is quite possibly one of the most common ornamentations used by ANY culture. It is reaching to claim them as a unique experience to only a single culture. Agreed. Many nations throughout the world had medicine people. It was not just indigenous people who had healers lol. I didn't see it as alt-right propaganda growing up. The main issue I had with the books always dealt with the Tribe, and how the author's used racial stereotypes such as Tonto speak, and the 'noble savage' trope.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 8, 2021 16:06:54 GMT -5
That seems incredibly dramatic. The Tribe is problematic but the rest of the stuff you mention isn't all that substantial. The clans are clearly not an analogue for Indians, and this is evident in just how different the Tribe is to them (problematic as they are). As far as feathers go, it is quite possibly one of the most common ornamentations used by ANY culture. It is reaching to claim them as a unique experience to only a single culture. Agreed. Many nations throughout the world had medicine people. It was not just indigenous people who had healers lol. I didn't see it as alt-right propaganda growing up. The main issue I had with the books always dealt with the Tribe, and how the author's used racial stereotypes such as Tonto speak, and the 'noble savage' trope. Well, at least the books did something progressive, and that's the Sisters. A wasted opportunity story-wise if you ask me though; the Clans barely learned anything from them. Yeah, but correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have the pages with me right now so I apologize), but hasn't every tribal/clan/group healer in the world been lumped into one term (if so, I cannot remember the name) and "medicine people" is used specifically to identify spiritual healers within First Nations tribes/groups? But then again, "medicine cat" isn't too creative anyway, so it could just be a coincidence in that regard.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 16:11:33 GMT -5
Agreed. Many nations throughout the world had medicine people. It was not just indigenous people who had healers lol. I didn't see it as alt-right propaganda growing up. The main issue I had with the books always dealt with the Tribe, and how the author's used racial stereotypes such as Tonto speak, and the 'noble savage' trope. Well, at least the books did something progressive, and that's the Sisters. A wasted opportunity story-wise if you ask me though; the Clans barely learned anything from them. Yeah, but correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have the pages with me right now so I apologize), but hasn't every tribal/clan/group healer in the world been lumped into one term (if so, I cannot remember the name) and "medicine people" is used specifically to identify spiritual healers within First Nations tribes/groups? But then again, "medicine cat" isn't too creative anyway, so it could just be a coincidence in that regard. I know people like to umbrella term medicine men and medicine women under the name 'shamans', and growing up I always thought it was amusing when non-indigenous people used that term. Each nation/tribe has their own word for their medicine people. Therefore I never used 'shaman' when addressing medicine men and medicine women.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 8, 2021 16:15:39 GMT -5
Well, at least the books did something progressive, and that's the Sisters. A wasted opportunity story-wise if you ask me though; the Clans barely learned anything from them. Yeah, but correct me if I'm wrong (I don't have the pages with me right now so I apologize), but hasn't every tribal/clan/group healer in the world been lumped into one term (if so, I cannot remember the name) and "medicine people" is used specifically to identify spiritual healers within First Nations tribes/groups? But then again, "medicine cat" isn't too creative anyway, so it could just be a coincidence in that regard. I know people like to umbrella term medicine men and medicine women under the name 'shamans', and growing up I always thought it was amusing when non-indigenous people used that term. Each nation/tribe has their own word for their medicine people. Therefore I never used 'shaman' when addressing medicine men and medicine women. Good to know, thanks. Well, the least the Erins could have done is contacted as many First Nations people as possible while writing their series and asking, "Is this okay?" or "Is this offensive?" or "What should we change or erase/replace?"
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 16:21:30 GMT -5
I know people like to umbrella term medicine men and medicine women under the name 'shamans', and growing up I always thought it was amusing when non-indigenous people used that term. Each nation/tribe has their own word for their medicine people. Therefore I never used 'shaman' when addressing medicine men and medicine women. Good to know, thanks. Well, the least the Erins could have done is contacted as many First Nations people as possible while writing their series and asking, "Is this okay?" or "Is this offensive?" or "What should we change or erase/replace?" Tbh, as much as I hate to say this, there's bound to be something that's going to offend some kind of group. Most of the time it's just exhausting to even try to debate or let alone 'educate' folks on what could be appropriate and what wouldn't be. And as an indigenous person, what offends one nation/tribe, won't be offensive to another. What is appropriate in one, won't be for another. We all don't have the same traditions/customs.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 8, 2021 16:26:31 GMT -5
Good to know, thanks. Well, the least the Erins could have done is contacted as many First Nations people as possible while writing their series and asking, "Is this okay?" or "Is this offensive?" or "What should we change or erase/replace?" Tbh, as much as I hate to say this, there's bound to be something that's going to offend some kind of group. Most of the time it's just exhausting to even try to debate or let alone 'educate' folks on what could be appropriate and what wouldn't be. And as an indigenous person, what offends one nation/tribe, won't be offensive to another. What is appropriate in one, won't be for another. We all don't have the same traditions/customs. This is very true. But what I've learned is it's better to overthink everything than to simply assume. Hope is good, but not in this context. Once again, Exhibit A: The Tribe. Exhibit B: The Clans. Just saying, they should have known better. *Shrug* While each group has their own ways, white colonists kind of lumped them all up into one conglomerate. But again, we can all agree to disagree here, I suppose.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 16:26:45 GMT -5
I know people like to umbrella term medicine men and medicine women under the name 'shamans', and growing up I always thought it was amusing when non-indigenous people used that term. Each nation/tribe has their own word for their medicine people. Therefore I never used 'shaman' when addressing medicine men and medicine women. Good to know, thanks. Well, the least the Erins could have done is contacted as many First Nations people as possible while writing their series and asking, "Is this okay?" or "Is this offensive?" or "What should we change or erase/replace?" In the U.S alone, not including First Nations from Canada, or indigenous groups in Mexico, there are 574 federally recognized Nations. Some are only 'State' recognized, and others are still fighting for their right to be acknowledged. It would be time consuming to talk to tribal governments/elders of each Nation to try and find out what is offensive to them and what isn't. It wouldn't really be worth it in the long run. That's something I don't even like saying either.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 8, 2021 16:29:21 GMT -5
Good to know, thanks. Well, the least the Erins could have done is contacted as many First Nations people as possible while writing their series and asking, "Is this okay?" or "Is this offensive?" or "What should we change or erase/replace?" In the U.S alone, not including First Nations from Canada, or indigenous groups in Mexico, there are 574 federally recognized Nations. Some are only 'State' recognized, and others are still fighting for their right to be acknowledged. It would be time consuming to talk to tribal governments/elders of each Nation to try and find out what is offensive to them and what isn't. It wouldn't really be worth it in the long run. That's something I don't even like saying either. In that case, perhaps a universal ban on including anything tribal-related in any piece of work would be the best solution. (I'm using "ban" there for a lack of a better term.)
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Post by vectoring34 on Jun 8, 2021 16:29:26 GMT -5
Also this whole thread is going down the drain. I think we would all have to just agree to disagree at this point. Second: indigenous people are not 'Indians'. We are NOT from India lmao. Call us Native Americans, First Nations, Aborigines, Indigenous, anything but 'Indian'. All of the Seminole people I know IRL go by American Indian. As far as I'm aware, that one's a matter of opinion with no real consensus.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 16:31:07 GMT -5
Also this whole thread is going down the drain. I think we would all have to just agree to disagree at this point. Second: indigenous people are not 'Indians'. We are NOT from India lmao. Call us Native Americans, First Nations, Aborigines, Indigenous, anything but 'Indian'. All of the Seminole people I know IRL go by American Indian. As far as I'm aware, that one's a matter of opinion with no real consensus. hm.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 16:32:20 GMT -5
In the U.S alone, not including First Nations from Canada, or indigenous groups in Mexico, there are 574 federally recognized Nations. Some are only 'State' recognized, and others are still fighting for their right to be acknowledged. It would be time consuming to talk to tribal governments/elders of each Nation to try and find out what is offensive to them and what isn't. It wouldn't really be worth it in the long run. That's something I don't even like saying either. In that case, perhaps a universal ban on including anything tribal-related in any piece of work would be the best solution. (I'm using "ban" there for a lack of a better term.) No. That wouldn't work either. People wouldn't follow through with that.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Jun 8, 2021 16:34:47 GMT -5
In that case, perhaps a universal ban on including anything tribal-related in any piece of work would be the best solution. (I'm using "ban" there for a lack of a better term.) No. That wouldn't work either. People wouldn't follow through with that. Unfortunately. Perhaps we should all just be aware, try not to create any potentially offensive work (on a group level; on an individual level, that would be hard to avoid), and if you are unsure about something and/or it's a slippery slope, to just avoid it entirely, such as the inclusion of Tribal communities within literature or other forms of entertainment. *Shrug* I think that's a reasonable compromise.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Jun 8, 2021 16:38:56 GMT -5
imo if you're going to portray indigenous people in fiction or base a society off of them you should pick a specific tribe or group of tribes for inspiration and stick to it, because the tribes are so different from eachother. the mi'kmaq for example are very different from the navajo, since they live in vastly different climates and their languages evolved separately iirc
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 16:42:41 GMT -5
No. That wouldn't work either. People wouldn't follow through with that. Unfortunately. Perhaps we should all just be aware, try not to create any potentially offensive work (on a group level; on an individual level, that would be hard to avoid), and if you are unsure about something and/or it's a slippery slope, to just avoid it entirely, such as the inclusion of Tribal communities within literature or other forms of entertainment. *Shrug* I think that's a reasonable compromise. I don't mind people including indigenous people in their works, as long as they have people from that specific community they wish to write on educating them on what is appropriate and what isn't. But that's also a mess in itself, because whereas some communities are open to talk about their customs, others are not.
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Post by Neekwanakwaki (Cloud) on Jun 8, 2021 16:43:17 GMT -5
imo if you're going to portray indigenous people in fiction or base a society off of them you should pick a specific tribe or group of tribes for inspiration and stick to it, because the tribes are so different from eachother. the mi'kmaq for example are very different from the navajo, since they live in vastly different climates and their languages evolved separately iirc !!!
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