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Post by vectoring34 on May 23, 2021 23:00:28 GMT -5
Mistyfoot mentions that Hawkfrost took three RiverClan cats with him, so the cat who attacked Brambleclaw likely isn't one of the ones who was fighting Sandstorm and Mistyfoot. Yep, so then that does change things a bit and you basically have to assume that the two Shadowclan warriors who kill themselves are the same ones which fought Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight. Or else the manga just wasn't being exhaustive, but it's interesting how close it was though.
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Post by Hollyfall on May 23, 2021 23:03:49 GMT -5
Well, I called him having a last minute realization which gives him access to StarClan lmao. Him giving Onewhisker a life though was unexpected.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2021 23:08:49 GMT -5
Revelation or not, Mudclaw still sucks
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Post by vectoring34 on May 23, 2021 23:12:52 GMT -5
Ah yes, my full thoughts.
Well, what can I say that I have not already said? The actions Mudclaw took when he was denied power only went on to prove exactly why he never should have had that power. The last refuge people could take to defend him, that "Hawkfrost manipulated him" has little solid ground as its made all too clear that Mudclaw is fully aware that the plan is to murder Onewhisker at the very least if not Ashfoot. He can wax about how it's such a heavy duty, but in the end, he still does it with full intent to do so. I do still like his character in the sense that he's interesting, a real Sir Mordred type who engages in treachery so foul it alienates even those who were close to him. But on moral terms, this confirms what I have thought for a long time.
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Cloudy Sky
*briefly emerges from under my massive pile of schoolwork* I LIVE
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Post by Cloudy Sky on May 23, 2021 23:16:45 GMT -5
Mistyfoot mentions that Hawkfrost took three RiverClan cats with him, so the cat who attacked Brambleclaw likely isn't one of the ones who was fighting Sandstorm and Mistyfoot. Yep, so then that does change things a bit and you basically have to assume that the two Shadowclan warriors who kill themselves are the same ones which fought Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight. Or else the manga just wasn't being exhaustive, but it's interesting how close it was though. One of the ShadowClan cats that fought Brambleclaw and Squirrelflight is described as a ginger tom though. If the ginger tom is Rowanclaw, then there's an extra ShadowClan cat because he doesn't die. It would work if he isn't Rowanclaw, but I can't think of another ginger ShadowClan tom alive at that time.
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Post by Hollyfall on May 23, 2021 23:36:40 GMT -5
Unsurprisingly, this has made Mudclaw plummet from neutral to dislike. At this point his only redeeming quality is that he's fiercely loyal to his Clan and has it's best interests at heart. But even then his rebellion was just fueled by envy and pettiness. It's quite hard to root for him here, especially when he's conscious about being manipulated by Hawkfrost to kill not only Onewhisker, but strongly implying Ashfoot as well.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 23, 2021 23:41:00 GMT -5
Unsurprisingly, this has made Mudclaw plummet from neutral to dislike. At this point his only redeeming quality is that he's fiercely loyal to his Clan and has it's best interests at heart. But even then his rebellion was just fueled by envy and pettiness. It's quite hard to root for him here, especially when he's conscious about being manipulated by Hawkfrost to kill not only Onewhisker, but strongly implying Ashfoot as well. Right? At least he somewhat has a reason to be bitter at Onestar but Ashfoot was caught in the middle and he actively attacks her first Makes me mad because I LOVE Ashfoot
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 23, 2021 23:46:31 GMT -5
Also, I don't buy him doing it all in WC's best interests. To me, it sounds like the excuse he uses to justify his own greed for power and influence. If he cared about WC's best interests, he would constantly be combative towards Onestar when he IS doing a good job, nor would he take issue with Ashfoot - who is an older warrior and mate of a previous deputy
He constantly overlooks Hawkfrost's power grabs and stuff because his own morality is so corrupt. Remember - he's willing to promise HAWKFROST deputyship so long as he gets to be leader.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 23, 2021 23:50:50 GMT -5
Also, I don't buy him doing it all in WC's best interests. To me, it sounds like the excuse he uses to justify his own greed for power and influence. If he cared about WC's best interests, he would constantly be combative towards Onestar when he IS doing a good job, nor would he take issue with Ashfoot - who is an older warrior and mate of a previous deputy He constantly overlooks Hawkfrost's power grabs and stuff because his own morality is so corrupt. Remember - he's willing to promise HAWKFROST deputyship so long as he gets to be leader. I'd have to wait until I can read the manga, but I got that impression from the summary as well. His refusal to do anything to help Ashfoot or Onewhisker, even when they ask him for advice, and him grinding his teeth at the thought of doing apprentice duties makes him come off as though he cares more about how it personally affected him rather than how it affected Windclan. And of course, the fact that he realizes Hawkfrost's plan is going to murder and bury the code and he still manages to internally justify it is something wild. That's the largest problem with him attempting to claim a moral highground in regards to helping Windclan, that he ends up ironically becoming the exact same thing he is supposedly fighting against, a puppet for a non-Windclan cat.
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Post by Hollyfall on May 23, 2021 23:52:56 GMT -5
Unsurprisingly, this has made Mudclaw plummet from neutral to dislike. At this point his only redeeming quality is that he's fiercely loyal to his Clan and has it's best interests at heart. But even then his rebellion was just fueled by envy and pettiness. It's quite hard to root for him here, especially when he's conscious about being manipulated by Hawkfrost to kill not only Onewhisker, but strongly implying Ashfoot as well. Right? At least he somewhat has a reason to be bitter at Onestar but Ashfoot was caught in the middle and he actively attacks her first Makes me mad because I LOVE Ashfoot Onestar even offered for him to remain deputy but Mudclaw spat that right back in his face. Yet he's petty that Ashfoot's now deputy? Like sorry Mudclaw, that's all on you. Does it end with Ashfoot, even? He launched an attack against WindClan/Onewhisker's supporters. Cats certainly could have died in that battle, but he clearly didn't care and only wanted to get rid of Onestar and Ashfoot (at least that's the idea I got from the summaries).
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2021 23:54:17 GMT -5
Went along with Hawkfrost's evil plan, guilted and attacked his own brother and was willing to murder not only Onewhisker, but also Ashfoot, who had no beef with him and was doing her best. He died a traitor and a puppet. Hawkfrost played him like a fiddle. No sympathy, I'm sorry. I don't care if he was loyal (he wasn't) or cared about WC at the end.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 23, 2021 23:54:58 GMT -5
Right? At least he somewhat has a reason to be bitter at Onestar but Ashfoot was caught in the middle and he actively attacks her first Makes me mad because I LOVE Ashfoot Onestar even offered for him to remain deputy but Mudclaw spat that right back in his face, but he's petty that Ashfoot's now deputy? Like sorry Mudclaw, that's all on you. Does it end with Ashfoot, even? He launched an attack against WindClan/Onewhisker's supporters. Cats certainly could have died in that battle, but he clearly didn't care and only wanted to get rid of Onestar and Ashfoot (at least that's the idea I got from the summaries). I get the impression he cared in the summaries, hence the mentions of him feeling like there's bad prey in his stomach. But in a sense, that almost makes it worse. He cares enough to realize how horrible a thing he's doing, but he proceeds to self justify and continue to try and do it anyway despite his conscience telling him no. It's the sunken cost fallacy in a nutshell. It's very fascinating, if also horrible
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Post by Brindlefern on May 24, 2021 0:11:16 GMT -5
Welp, looks like I'm not getting this one. I'll stay in my corner, only now I'm bitter...
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Post by Sand on May 24, 2021 0:45:01 GMT -5
Can't wait for all the Mudclaw vs Onestar discourse it's going to cause being completely sarcastic here.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 24, 2021 1:13:22 GMT -5
inch-resting.
supports my view that starclan admittance is not based on whether or not you did bad things, but whether you sincerely regretted your wrong choices.
mudclaw was complex and morally gray without being portrayed as somehow correct or a martyr.
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Post by silentbreeze on May 24, 2021 3:03:53 GMT -5
The StarClan scene is pretty interesting, I always wanted to know how Tallstar and Mudclaw would interact once he went to StarClan. Mudclaw's overall actions towards Onestar and WC were very wrong, and it got to the point where innocent parties were caught in between (poor Ashfoot). That being said, I'm glad Mudclaw realizes his mistakes in StarClan and takes accountability in the end, although I'll always wonder what kind of leader he'd be if his title wasn't stripped lol. Thank you and your friend for this thread, this comic is looking to be very interesting!
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 24, 2021 7:48:03 GMT -5
Opposite to many people, i love the characterization that Mudclaw got in this manga. He's agressive, sometimes he can be petty, he has a thirst for vengeance, but he actually belives he can bring the best to the Clan. It makes me think he's a morally gray chracter, especially with the last minute realization that what he did was wrong.
And i love the scene with Tallstar on the end, i'm glad they made up on StarClan. I also love how they explored his thoughts on Ashfoot, his relationship with Tornear, Hawkfrost and especially Webfoot, his apprentice.
Upon reading all of this, i'm glad they didin't paint him as some sort of innocent angel and he was actually written as agressive and impsulsive. I'm looking forward to buy this myself.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 24, 2021 8:05:11 GMT -5
So at the end of the day, everything I thought about Mudclaw is still as true as it was years ago. He doesn’t deserve leadership, he doesn’t deserve my sympathy, he doesn’t have anyone’s interests but his own at the end of the day. And Hawkfrost played him like a fiddle. Hilarious. He’s a great character for conflict and drama, but he is not an unsung hero and never will or should be.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on May 24, 2021 8:41:43 GMT -5
Who even cares about Onestar and Mudclaw?
Can we all just take a moment to appreciate Hawkfrost actually doing a great job as villain because he really deserves some credit for how manipulative his whole act was here!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 10:52:16 GMT -5
lollll people here saying 'this PROVES mudclaw is dislikable' actually mudclaw did nothing wrong and onestar did nothing wrong and every time a windclan cat is a bitch they are COMPLETELY justified. hope this helps!!!
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Post by Mothdapple on May 24, 2021 12:50:50 GMT -5
Thanks, this manga made me hate Mudclaw even more now, just like what A Shadow in RiverClan did to me with Leopardstar lol.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 24, 2021 13:05:56 GMT -5
Interesting. So my final thoughts and opinions, yeah I pretty much expected this. Hawkfrost was manipulating him, and this finally shows it. It seems Hawkfrost was trying to convince Mudclaw that Firestar was trying to take over both TC and WC and using Onewhisker to get that. It also shows that Mudclaw wasn't gung ho about agreeing with Hawkfrost, being cautious of him, unsure, and even questioning some of his words and actions. In the end though, because of paranoia and pressure, he eventually agrees to his help, but it doesn't mean he agreed with what Hawkfrost wanted. His blind loyalty though was to WindClan, even Tornear agreed with him at some point, but not to the extremes that Mudclaw was slowly edging to. He's always wanted to put WindClan first, even if it meant making horrible decisions, as long as it meant it would help WC survive and he could protect it from the other clans. But it's because of that blind loyalty that he doesn't realize that Hawkfrost was playing him like a fiddle then getting rid of him because he was a loose end. In his mentality, he believed that Onewhisker was untrustworthy, and he was just one of Firestar's pawns, and that maybe killing him would be for the better. But you can also see that he struggled with that thought as well, it wasn't something he planned from the start, but it was an idea that gave him dark thoughts. I also liked that this clarifies that Mudclaw did have a good amount of supporters behind him. He also never went for Ashfoot, even if he was petty toward her. And that he genuinely believed that Firestar was a threat to WC and Onewhisker was no better because he had him in his pocket. When it comes to other things, I never cared for Ashfoot, she never seemed like that much of a deputy, even, later on, she was defending Onestar when he blatantly broke the code and did nothing to speak out against it, so she's meh for me. And I also don't blame Mudclaw for being petty, I personally would have done the same thing, lol. Honestly don't understand why Onestar was turning to him for help after what happened, you have a deputy for a reason. I also like the moments where Mudclaw genuinely begged Onestar not to so easily give away their territory that they needed. Or when he defending Onestar at the gathering, but only because he was defending WindClan. It's kinda hard to though considering how pathetic Onestar must have looked compared to the other clan leaders. It was interesting to see Tallstar and Mudclaw interact in StarClan as well, even Mudclaw thought he didn't belong there after realizing what he did was wrong. But I think that at heart he wasn't really a bad cat, he did feel a form of not really being himself, or dreadful feelings in his stomach, and conflicts with his moralities. I don't think he's evil like the likes of cats such as Brokenstar and Tigerstar, or Hawkfrost even, and that he actually did care about his clan, but he went about it the wrong way. So I'm glad they addressed that, and I didn't expect to see him give Onestar a life. Honestly must feel like even more of a gut to the stomach now...considering how things turned out. Overall this was enjoyable, thanks for the spoilers Jaysnow , I think as a Mudclaw fan I'm pretty satisfied and this honestly just makes me like him even more. He is a gray-area character with actual inner conflicts and certain morals, so that definitely solidifies him as a pretty good character to read about imo. And I think that's why he would still be a better leader over Onestar as well, he just has such good character complexity, there was so much potential there.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 24, 2021 13:27:38 GMT -5
Two. He had a whole of TWO supporters in Windclan. I suppose your definition of "good amount" may be different to mine but a mere two cats hardly seems like a lot. The fact that there are literally twice as many Riverclanners in his little gang as Windclanners despite this supposedly being for Windclan speaks volumes.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 24, 2021 14:01:01 GMT -5
Two. He had a whole of TWO supporters in Windclan. I suppose your definition of "good amount" may be different to mine but a mere two cats hardly seems like a lot. The fact that there are literally twice as many Riverclanners in his little gang as Windclanners despite this supposedly being for Windclan speaks volumes. I don't recall saying "WindClan supporters" on this thread Vect. Regardless, any cat can follow the 13th code like sheep even if they disagree with Onestar.
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Post by cygna on May 24, 2021 14:28:59 GMT -5
I have to say this book didn't ruin Mudclaw for me at all.
I like him so much BECAUSE he isn't wholly or mostly good. I swear if hey turned him into a much to symathetic character I would be so board. I am sad he's been dumbed down to make Hawkfrost look like a manipulative genius however.
Anyways no matter how garbage he looks right now it's always refreshing to remember Onestar was far worse.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on May 24, 2021 14:50:16 GMT -5
I have to say this book didn't ruin Mudclaw for me at all. I like him so much BECAUSE he isn't wholly or mostly good. I swear if hey turned him into a much to symathetic character I would be so board. I am sad he's been dumbed down to make Hawkfrost look like a manipulative genius however. Anyways no matter how garbage he looks right now it's always refreshing to remember Onestar was far worse. catch me being a mudclaw loyalist til the day i die lmao. i will always take the argument that "onestar was worse." mudclaw never had a personal grudge against firestar and thunderclan. if he became leader like he was supposed to, he'd not attack them uselessly like onestar did in eclipse. mudclaw would just tell his clan to be more protective of borders and thats it. aint nothing wrong with that.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 24, 2021 14:59:36 GMT -5
I have to say this book didn't ruin Mudclaw for me at all. I like him so much BECAUSE he isn't wholly or mostly good. I swear if hey turned him into a much to symathetic character I would be so board. I am sad he's been dumbed down to make Hawkfrost look like a manipulative genius however. Anyways no matter how garbage he looks right now it's always refreshing to remember Onestar was far worse. catch me being a mudclaw loyalist til the day i die lmao. i will always take the argument that "onestar was worse." mudclaw never had a personal grudge against firestar and thunderclan. if he became leader like he was supposed to, he'd not attack them uselessly like onestar did in eclipse. mudclaw would just tell his clan to be more protective of borders and thats it. aint nothing wrong with that. No, instead he just murders Onewhisker, Ashfoot, Leopardstar, and Mistyfoot. He might go for Thunderclan too actually since Hawkfrost was pushing him to take out Firestar in order to push Brambleclaw. Mudclaw is worse, this manga confirms it. The silver bullet to this tired argument is that he planned on murdering at bare minimum four innocent cats, two of them his clanmates. The very last whataboutist defense crumbles like a sand castle when one realizes that as bad as Onestar is, at least he never planned to murder two clanmates and enslave his clan to Hawkfrost.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 24, 2021 15:00:45 GMT -5
Onestar even offered for him to remain deputy but Mudclaw spat that right back in his face, but he's petty that Ashfoot's now deputy? Like sorry Mudclaw, that's all on you. Does it end with Ashfoot, even? He launched an attack against WindClan/Onewhisker's supporters. Cats certainly could have died in that battle, but he clearly didn't care and only wanted to get rid of Onestar and Ashfoot (at least that's the idea I got from the summaries). I get the impression he cared in the summaries, hence the mentions of him feeling like there's bad prey in his stomach. But in a sense, that almost makes it worse. He cares enough to realize how horrible a thing he's doing, but he proceeds to self justify and continue to try and do it anyway despite his conscience telling him no. It's the sunken cost fallacy in a nutshell. It's very fascinating, if also horrible It proves that even if he DOES love WC, he still values his pride, ego, and power over their best interests. Ashfoot and Onestar were doing fine at the time
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Post by Moonblazer on May 24, 2021 15:07:29 GMT -5
catch me being a mudclaw loyalist til the day i die lmao. i will always take the argument that "onestar was worse." mudclaw never had a personal grudge against firestar and thunderclan. if he became leader like he was supposed to, he'd not attack them uselessly like onestar did in eclipse. mudclaw would just tell his clan to be more protective of borders and thats it. aint nothing wrong with that. No, instead he just murders Onewhisker, Ashfoot, Leopardstar, and Mistyfoot. He might go for Thunderclan too actually since Hawkfrost was pushing him to take out Firestar in order to push Brambleclaw. Mudclaw is worse, this manga confirms it. The silver bullet to this tired argument is that he planned on murdering at bare minimum four innocent cats, two of them his clanmates. The very last whataboutist defense crumbles like a sand castle when one realizes that as bad as Onestar is, at least he never planned to murder two clanmates and enslave his clan to Hawkfrost. Exactly this. And I can name another cat who planned to murder 4 cats at once who brought so much argument that he should go to the Dark Forest when he wound up in Starclan and is now possessing cats bodies and controlling ghosts in kitty hell, but nah, his crime was loving too much and hey, according to Tumblr and Twitter, Bramblestar was worse, right? Mudclaw is by far worse than Onestar in this regard.
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