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Post by halogen on May 5, 2021 19:26:45 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one has complained about the people making Warriors MAPs to Christmas songs that are actually singing about Jesus. Like the Mary did You Know MAP, or I saw parts for a Firestar "Do You Hear What I Hear" MAP. That's equating an important figure in a religion that's actually practiced by people today to characters form a fictional cat book, so I would think that would be more offensive than "cats with ancient Egypt aesthetic".
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Post by vectoring34 on May 5, 2021 19:47:11 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one has complained about the people making Warriors MAPs to Christmas songs that are actually singing about Jesus. Like the Mary did You Know MAP, or I saw parts for a Firestar "Do You Hear What I Hear" MAP. That's equating an important figure in a religion that's actually practiced by people today to characters form a fictional cat book, so I would think that would be more offensive than "cats with ancient Egypt aesthetic". The Medieval MAPs do this too and no one cares. People have brought up a good point that if it was pentagrams and crosses or who knows what else, no one would care. It's very hypocritical.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 5, 2021 20:23:16 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one has complained about the people making Warriors MAPs to Christmas songs that are actually singing about Jesus. Like the Mary did You Know MAP, or I saw parts for a Firestar "Do You Hear What I Hear" MAP. That's equating an important figure in a religion that's actually practiced by people today to characters form a fictional cat book, so I would think that would be more offensive than "cats with ancient Egypt aesthetic". That's because the majority of people complaining are a bunch of white kids with a savior complex. Quite a few people of Egyptian descent said they enjoyed the MAP a lot, an when they did, these kids had the actual audacity to tell the people they're supposedly defending why they should be angry. Like lmao what
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Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
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Post by finland on May 7, 2021 8:19:17 GMT -5
I’m still upset at the fandom for bullying the host of the I can’t say I’m in Love MAP into cancelation.
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Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
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Post by finland on May 15, 2021 17:58:53 GMT -5
Now they’re going over this person
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Post by Aqua on May 15, 2021 18:04:32 GMT -5
Now they’re going over this person Crystal?
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Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
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Post by finland on May 15, 2021 18:08:30 GMT -5
Now they’re going over this person Crystal? I don’t know if Crystal is going after this person but some people in the fandom are calling them transphobic. However, there are comments from actual trans people saying that they see no transphobia at all.
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Post by Aqua on May 15, 2021 18:14:56 GMT -5
I don’t know if Crystal is going after this person but some people in the fandom are calling them transphobic. However, there are comments from actual trans people saying that they see no transphobia at all. These people just need to get a ****ing life. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the video, and even if a person does post something that makes the others uncomfortable, then back off and don't watch it? Seriously. This fandom is so immature.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 15, 2021 18:50:38 GMT -5
I don’t know if Crystal is going after this person but some people in the fandom are calling them transphobic. However, there are comments from actual trans people saying that they see no transphobia at all. Yeah I saw that. It's so stupid. If anything, this video is supposed to show how much easier/different things would have been for Squirrelflight had she'd been male. There's nothing transphobic about it
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 15, 2021 18:52:26 GMT -5
This fandom is so immature. To be fair, the fandom does contain mostly minors, so that plays a lot into it. Not that I condone their actions or anything. But it at least gives some explanation ya know?
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 15, 2021 19:34:44 GMT -5
This fandom is so immature. To be fair, the fandom does contain mostly minors, so that plays a lot into it. Not that I condone their actions or anything. But it at least gives some explanation ya know? This is exactly what it is. The minors start stuff and then they're like 'YOU CAN'T CRITICIZE ME! I'M A MINOR' and I rub my temples
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Bisexual
#64C7FF
Name Colour
finland
Porgs are love
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Post by finland on May 16, 2021 8:22:54 GMT -5
I don’t know if Crystal is going after this person but some people in the fandom are calling them transphobic. However, there are comments from actual trans people saying that they see no transphobia at all. Yeah I saw that. It's so stupid. If anything, this video is supposed to show how much easier/different things would have been for Squirrelflight had she'd been male. There's nothing transphobic about it Exactly! The updated description made me feel very angry at this community.
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Post by Aqua on May 16, 2021 10:45:25 GMT -5
Yeah I saw that. It's so stupid. If anything, this video is supposed to show how much easier/different things would have been for Squirrelflight had she'd been male. There's nothing transphobic about it Exactly! The updated description made me feel very angry at this community. A lot of people seem to claim they weren't harrassing this user? I posted in it and those were the comments I got.
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Post by fire on May 16, 2021 10:59:09 GMT -5
Imo it is cultural appropriation if it's nonblack people using black culture. Would I send death threats and harass these animators? No. Would I let them know how I feel? Yeah.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 16, 2021 11:12:26 GMT -5
Imo it is cultural appropriation if it's nonblack people using black culture. Would I send death threats and harass these animators? No. Would I let them know how I feel? Yeah. Ancient Egypt isn't black culture though. Cleopatra especially doubles down on that, since she wasn't even from Egypt but rather part of an inbred royal family from Greece. I know there's some people who say Greek people aren't white but as far as I'm aware that opinion isn't too common nowadays (race is all a social construct regardless), and Greeks definitely aren't black.
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Post by fire on May 16, 2021 11:17:10 GMT -5
Imo it is cultural appropriation if it's nonblack people using black culture. Would I send death threats and harass these animators? No. Would I let them know how I feel? Yeah. Ancient Egypt isn't black culture though. Cleopatra especially doubles down on that, since she wasn't even from Egypt but rather part of an inbred royal family from Greece. I know there's some people who say Greek people aren't white but as far as I'm aware that opinion isn't too common nowadays (race is all a social construct regardless), and Greeks definitely aren't black. Do you have any other evidence for that claim besides Cleopatra?
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Post by vectoring34 on May 16, 2021 11:56:22 GMT -5
Ancient Egypt isn't black culture though. Cleopatra especially doubles down on that, since she wasn't even from Egypt but rather part of an inbred royal family from Greece. I know there's some people who say Greek people aren't white but as far as I'm aware that opinion isn't too common nowadays (race is all a social construct regardless), and Greeks definitely aren't black. Do you have any other evidence for that claim besides Cleopatra? Evidence for what, for ancient Egypt not being black culture? Well for one thing, ancient Egypt spans a massive span of times, thousands of years. Many empires conquered the place from many different cultures so it's very hard to toss on a blanket statement of whose culture it really is. After all, the Persians, Macedonians, Greeks, and Romans were not black, yet they all conquered Egypt and held it for centuries. Before the Persians, the kingdom of Kush conquered Egypt and given their position in the south they were almost certainly black by modern day standards, but the Kushites themselves had been earlier conquered by the native Egyptians in the New Kingdom period. Do you see the problem with trying to slap the label of "black culture" on so many different cultures and societies which had nothing to do with each other? Even if all one cares about is just physical appearance, it's still a huge problem because Egypt was pretty clearly a diverse place of trade and culture given that it connected northern Africa, central Africa, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East. There would have been many different "races" living in Egypt at any one time. More than likely one can guess that the majority of Egyptians probably looked like northern Africans or people from the Levant, but even that would have depended on the dynasty in question. Not to mention whether northern Africans are black or not is a weird topic(then again so is everything within race, being that it's a social construct). This isn't even getting into the later Arab conquests. Calling Egypt "black culture" is like calling the Roman empire "white culture". It's slapping present standards onto an ancient society in a totally unhistorical way and completely ignoring the multiracial make up of it. But even if you were to do that, and just try to look at them ignoring all historical context, ancient Egyptians were a distinct group phenotypically from groups further south in Africa.
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Post by fire on May 16, 2021 14:00:29 GMT -5
Do you have any other evidence for that claim besides Cleopatra? Evidence for what, for ancient Egypt not being black culture? Well for one thing, ancient Egypt spans a massive span of times, thousands of years. Many empires conquered the place from many different cultures so it's very hard to toss on a blanket statement of whose culture it really is. After all, the Persians, Macedonians, Greeks, and Romans were not black, yet they all conquered Egypt and held it for centuries. Before the Persians, the kingdom of Kush conquered Egypt and given their position in the south they were almost certainly black by modern day standards, but the Kushites themselves had been earlier conquered by the native Egyptians in the New Kingdom period. Do you see the problem with trying to slap the label of "black culture" on so many different cultures and societies which had nothing to do with each other? Even if all one cares about is just physical appearance, it's still a huge problem because Egypt was pretty clearly a diverse place of trade and culture given that it connected northern Africa, central Africa, the Mediterranean, and the Middle East. There would have been many different "races" living in Egypt at any one time. More than likely one can guess that the majority of Egyptians probably looked like northern Africans or people from the Levant, but even that would have depended on the dynasty in question. Not to mention whether northern Africans are black or not is a weird topic(then again so is everything within race, being that it's a social construct). This isn't even getting into the later Arab conquests. Calling Egypt "black culture" is like calling the Roman empire "white culture". It's slapping present standards onto an ancient society in a totally unhistorical way and completely ignoring the multiracial make up of it. But even if you were to do that, and just try to look at them ignoring all historical context, ancient Egyptians were a distinct group phenotypically from groups further south in Africa. Aight, I respect what you're saying. I haven't done a whole lotta research on ancient civilizations but I can see you know your stuff. I understand what you're trying to say.
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Post by Numquam on May 16, 2021 15:41:46 GMT -5
Good god I hope the creator of the MAP is okay
I deal with a lot of whites with White Savior Complex regarding my culture too and it's irritating. You can tell they're mostly doing it to be performative and not because they actually care about the affected culture (they certainly didn't bother to do any research to actually know what is and isn't appropriation).
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 16, 2021 17:17:31 GMT -5
Exactly! The updated description made me feel very angry at this community. A lot of people seem to claim they weren't harrassing this user? I posted in it and those were the comments I got. Literally no point in commenting. They'll just accuse you of being transphobic. One of the minors thinks it's appropriate to have a document calling people out with usernames and everything visible
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Post by thatratparker on May 16, 2021 17:26:38 GMT -5
Now they’re going over this person ah ouch this one. i don't encourage harassment nor do i see this as transphobic. but i see many other issues with this pmv that weren't addressed in the apology
the spoiler will be for just... a general content warning for talkin about abuse, not any spoilers
i just don't like the fact that this pmv says that squirrelflight can't be abused/fight through the abuse if she was a guy. it feels... very distasteful to male abuse victims who are already treated as a joke or thought of to not exist.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 16, 2021 17:44:12 GMT -5
Now they’re going over this person ah ouch this one. i don't encourage harassment nor do i see this as transphobic. but i see many other issues with this pmv that weren't addressed in the apology
the spoiler will be for just... a general content warning for talkin about abuse, not any spoilers
i just don't like the fact that this pmv says that squirrelflight can't be abused/fight through the abuse if she was a guy. it feels... very distasteful to male abuse victims who are already treated as a joke or thought of to not exist. I think there's a valid discussion to be had about that PMV, but that's exactly the problem when people start shouting up whatever first pops into their mind. It ends up warping any discussion about it rather than exploring any nuanced problems in it. So any real issues present in it end up being obscured by the horde of false accusations and it makes it very messy. I do agree with you on the matter that I think some of the choices made there are questionable. For instance, the fire scene. The reason Squirrelflight couldn't fight off Ashfur in that scene has nothing to do with her being female while he is male, it had to do with the fact that just a few days earlier she had been gutted by a Windclanner and was still recovering from her horrible injury. Even if she had been male, there's no way she could have been able to fight off a warrior as strong as Ashfur while recovering from being torn open.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 16, 2021 17:52:01 GMT -5
ah ouch this one. i don't encourage harassment nor do i see this as transphobic. but i see many other issues with this pmv that weren't addressed in the apology
the spoiler will be for just... a general content warning for talkin about abuse, not any spoilers
i just don't like the fact that this pmv says that squirrelflight can't be abused/fight through the abuse if she was a guy. it feels... very distasteful to male abuse victims who are already treated as a joke or thought of to not exist. I think there's a valid discussion to be had about that PMV, but that's exactly the problem when people start shouting up whatever first pops into their mind. It ends up warping any discussion about it rather than exploring any nuanced problems in it. So any real issues present in it end up being obscured by the horde of false accusations and it makes it very messy. I do agree with you on the matter that I think some of the choices made there are questionable. For instance, the fire scene. The reason Squirrelflight couldn't fight off Ashfur in that scene has nothing to do with her being female while he is male, it had to do with the fact that just a few days earlier she had been gutted by a Windclanner and was still recovering from her horrible injury. Even if she had been male, there's no way she could have been able to fight off a warrior as strong as Ashfur while recovering from being torn open. She had to fight him in this instance because she also had no secret to reveal to make him leave. Crowfeather and Leafpool come clean in this version
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Post by vectoring34 on May 16, 2021 18:00:14 GMT -5
I think there's a valid discussion to be had about that PMV, but that's exactly the problem when people start shouting up whatever first pops into their mind. It ends up warping any discussion about it rather than exploring any nuanced problems in it. So any real issues present in it end up being obscured by the horde of false accusations and it makes it very messy. I do agree with you on the matter that I think some of the choices made there are questionable. For instance, the fire scene. The reason Squirrelflight couldn't fight off Ashfur in that scene has nothing to do with her being female while he is male, it had to do with the fact that just a few days earlier she had been gutted by a Windclanner and was still recovering from her horrible injury. Even if she had been male, there's no way she could have been able to fight off a warrior as strong as Ashfur while recovering from being torn open. She had to fight him in this instance because she also had no secret to reveal to make him leave. Crowfeather and Leafpool come clean in this version She had to fight him due to lack of options, yes, but I don't think the encounter would have gone well for her. Even accounting for sexual dimorphism, she was nearly dead merely days ago. I imagine certainly that regardless, she would still do so if she had no other choice, I just do not think that sexual dimorphism being on her side is going to be enough in this case.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 16, 2021 18:19:19 GMT -5
She had to fight him in this instance because she also had no secret to reveal to make him leave. Crowfeather and Leafpool come clean in this version She had to fight him due to lack of options, yes, but I don't think the encounter would have gone well for her. Even accounting for sexual dimorphism, she was nearly dead merely days ago. I imagine certainly that regardless, she would still do so if she had no other choice, I just do not think that sexual dimorphism being on her side is going to be enough in this case. I'm not saying it'd be on her side (we've seen she-cats kill toms before anyways), just pointing out why the situation likely happening in the PMV
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 16, 2021 18:50:55 GMT -5
I want to point out, as a trans person myself, that when it comes to genderbending there's a good portion of the community that's not fond of it and do find it offensive. Personally it doesn't bother me, but I can understand why some would be bothered by the video.
However, I still believe criticism can be made without threats and harassment. There's plenty of things I actually do find distasteful about that video, but expressing that through proper criticism is the more appropriate action.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 16, 2021 19:50:42 GMT -5
I want to point out, as a trans person myself, that when it comes to genderbending there's a good portion of the community that's not fond of it and do find it offensive. Personally it doesn't bother me, but I can understand why some would be bothered by the video. However, I still believe criticism can be made without threats and harassment. There's plenty of things I actually do find distasteful about that video, but expressing that through proper criticism is the more appropriate action. Right, and that is precisely why the online mobbing is a problem. Because even legitimate criticism ends up getting buried under the swarm of spurious complaints.
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Post by halogen on May 16, 2021 20:10:07 GMT -5
She had to fight him in this instance because she also had no secret to reveal to make him leave. Crowfeather and Leafpool come clean in this version She had to fight him due to lack of options, yes, but I don't think the encounter would have gone well for her. Even accounting for sexual dimorphism, she was nearly dead merely days ago. I imagine certainly that regardless, she would still do so if she had no other choice, I just do not think that sexual dimorphism being on her side is going to be enough in this case. How important is sexual dimorphism in cats anyway, with regards of how it affects their fighting ability? It's probably not exactly the same as it is in humans.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 16, 2021 20:31:28 GMT -5
She had to fight him due to lack of options, yes, but I don't think the encounter would have gone well for her. Even accounting for sexual dimorphism, she was nearly dead merely days ago. I imagine certainly that regardless, she would still do so if she had no other choice, I just do not think that sexual dimorphism being on her side is going to be enough in this case. How important is sexual dimorphism in cats anyway, with regards of how it affects their fighting ability? It's probably not exactly the same as it is in humans. Humans are LESS sexually dimorphic than cats. As you can see, feral cat males are about 30-50% heavier than cat females. If you look at the difference in humans however, the difference in weight is usually less than 20%, hovering around 15% or so. Body mass is generally a predictor of strength since more mass equals more muscle, and it makes sense to be this way in cats too, because cat males are evolutionarily pressured into battling each other for territory and defending it. Humans, by comparison, have actively evolved away from fighting to settle disputes, with our canines atrophying and our muscles being weaker pound for pound than the other great apes.
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Cloudy Sky
*briefly emerges from under my massive pile of schoolwork* I LIVE
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Post by Cloudy Sky on May 16, 2021 20:48:17 GMT -5
How important is sexual dimorphism in cats anyway, with regards of how it affects their fighting ability? It's probably not exactly the same as it is in humans. Humans are LESS sexually dimorphic than cats. As you can see, feral cat males are about 30-50% heavier than cat females. If you look at the difference in humans however, the difference in weight is usually less than 20%, hovering around 15% or so. Body mass is generally a predictor of strength since more mass equals more muscle, and it makes sense to be this way in cats too, because cat males are evolutionarily pressured into battling each other for territory and defending it. Humans, by comparison, have actively evolved away from fighting to settle disputes, with our canines atrophying and our muscles being weaker pound for pound than the other great apes. Sexual dimorphism doesn't seem to exist/matter in Warriors though.
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