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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 17:39:55 GMT -5
So I was skimming through Leafpool's wish and guess what I found in Chapter 1?: <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="2.5" style="position: absolute; width: 19.120000000000005px; height: 2.5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: 12px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_80439206" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="2.5" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 2.5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: 12px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_49222840" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="2.5" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 2.5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 83px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_56192301" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="2.5" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 2.5px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: 83px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_15983665" scrolling="no"></iframe> Ravenwing also received an omen from Starclan themselves. And before any one tries to pull the "He faked the Omen" theory, that's impossable: wcrpforums.com/thread/62230/mapleshades-victims-lying
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 17:43:20 GMT -5
And for those who require a bit more context for this scene: <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="2.1600000000000037" style="position: absolute; width: 19.120000000000005px; height: 2.1600000000000037px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: 12px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_66897265" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="2.1600000000000037" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 2.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: 12px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_40241899" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="2.1600000000000037" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 2.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 151px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_85118497" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="2.1600000000000037" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 2.16px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: 151px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_57573403" scrolling="no"></iframe>
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Nov 16, 2018 18:20:59 GMT -5
That...makes no sense, canon-wise. Leafpool and Jayfeather (and Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, Dovewing, and Firestar, but I'm addressing the aspect of medicine cats specifically) decide all the time what omens to keep quiet or to themselves. They don't report everything to their leaders, as this sentence implies that they should. This is saying they have to because they have no choice, but if that's the case, they break that rule constantly. Leafpool kept the secret about the "lake will turn red" or whatever to herself, and the omen that Spottedleaf sent her about Mothwing, as well as her dreams with StarClan later, like with Cinderheart and she found out she was her. If this was the case, she should be telling the cats concerned, since she told Squirrelflight about the vision specifically addressing Squirrelflight and Bramblestar. Ravenwing announced Mapleshade's secret to the whole Clan. If this is a rule, medicine cats should announce every sign, no matter how vague, to the Clan, or at least their leader.
Now, maybe she couldn't tell Firestar about the "the lake will turn red" one (even though, again, this is saying that no sign/vision/omen/prophecies can be left unreported...?) because she didn't know who it pertained to, but she found out about Cinderheart and told nobody. Jayfeather didn't, either, when he first found out when Cinderheart. He had a straight up dream, where Cinderpelt spoke to him through Cinderheart. In fact, if you recall, Leafpool insisted that she not know and got angry with Jayfeather when he kept mentioning that he wanted to tell Cinderheart. And wasn't there a scene later, where he and Firestar spoke about Cinderheart, and he wanted to tell Firestar, but he didn't? He should've reported that, then. He only told Cinderheart later, when Yellowfang ordered him to. Leafpool didn't inform RiverClan about Mothwing, even though it was a dangerous secret, if they needed Mothwing to commune with their ancestors. For all she knew, StarClan was telling her to reveal Mothwing's secret, because it endangered RiverClan in the same way that Ravenwing revealed Mapleshade's (which, on the scale of danger, was much less dangerous than Mothwing's secret). They just got lucky that Willowshine could provide that connection. For a while there, Leafpool also thought StarClan had sent her to the Dark Forest, but she didn't tell Firestar or anyone else about that. She thought she was sent there for a reason, and then she saw Tigerstar with his sons and said nothing to anyone. If that was an omen like she thought it was, she kept it to herself, despite knowing that Tigerstar could speak to his sons and inflict wounds on them (I'm pretty sure she noticed Bramblestar had gotten himself hurt one night when he reopened his wound).
There are quite a few other examples of prophecies/visions/omens/signs that medicine cats keep to themselves, even if it has to do with one cat specifically, or several cats. Like, literally part of a medicine cat's job is, arguably, secrecy. They have to keep StarClan's visions and signs to themselves tons of times. Hell, they aren't even allowed to report what they see at the Moonstone/Moonpool half the time, and usually only discuss it amongst themselves!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 18:41:26 GMT -5
That...makes no sense, canon-wise. Leafpool and Jayfeather (and Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, Dovewing, and Firestar, but I'm addressing the aspect of medicine cats specifically) decide all the time what omens to keep quiet or to themselves. They don't report everything to their leaders, as this sentence implies that they should. This is saying they have to because they have no choice, but if that's the case, they break that rule constantly. Leafpool kept the secret about the "lake will turn red" or whatever to herself, and the omen that Spottedleaf sent her about Mothwing, as well as her dreams with StarClan later, like with Cinderheart and she found out she was her. If this was the case, she should be telling the cats concerned, since she told Squirrelflight about the vision specifically addressing Squirrelflight and Bramblestar. Ravenwing announced Mapleshade's secret to the whole Clan. If this is a rule, medicine cats should announce every sign, no matter how vague, to the Clan, or at least their leader. Now, maybe she couldn't tell Firestar about the "the lake will turn red" one (even though, again, this is basically saying that no sign can be left unreported...?) because she didn't know who it pertained to, but she found out about Cinderheart and told nobody. Jayfeather didn't, either, when he first found out when Cinderheart was an apprentice. Leafpool didn't inform RiverClan about Mothwing, even though it was a dangerous secret, if they needed Mothwing to commune with their ancestors. For all she knew, StarClan was telling her to reveal Mothwing's secret, because it endangered RiverClan in the same way that Ravenwing revealed Mapleshade's (which, on the scale of danger, was much less dangerous than Mothwing's secret). They just got lucky that Willowshine could provide that connection. For a while there, Leafpool also thought StarClan had sent her to the Dark Forest, but she didn't tell Firestar or anyone else about that. She thought she was sent there for a reason, and then she saw Tigerstar with his sons and said nothing to anyone. If that was an omen like she thought it was, she kept it to herself, despite knowing that Tigerstar could speak to his sons and inflict wounds on them (I'm pretty sure she noticed Bramblestar had gotten himself hurt one night when he reopened his wound). There are quite a few other examples of prophecies, omens, signs that medicine cats keep to themselves, even if it has to do with one cat specifically, or several cats. Like, literally part of a medicine cat's job is, arguably, secrecy. They have to keep StarClan's visions and signs to themselves tons of times. Hell, they aren't even allowed to report what they see at the Moonstone/Moonpool half the time, and usually only discuss it amongst themselves! Those were when the omens were unknown or no threat. Cinderheart being Cinderpelt was no threat and Starclan's will. And the blood will blood spill vision could literally be meant anything, especially it implies blood family. So even telling the leader could be risky and it turns out it did. It turned out to be about the deputy, who could of easily been be informed about the omen if Leader chooses to. By the time the meaning was more clear, the issue had already been resolved, Brambleclaw killed Hawkfrost, making telling of the omen useless. While Ravenwing had figured out the meaning, they were dealing with a clear threat that concerned the whole of Thunderclan: a lying and traitorous Clanmate who possibly dangerous, a Riverclan allie amoung their ranks. Ravenwing receiving an Omen about it from Starclan themselves confirms they didn't want things to left as it was; Appledusk and Mapleshade carrying on their lies and secrets meetings - And Starclan wanted the secret exposed in some way. Just like when Yellowfang gave Jayfeather the crow feather. Also, it's implied Ravenwing only told Oakstar, not loudly announcing the Whole Clan: It was Oakstar's choose to hold the trial and tell the rest of Thunderclan.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Nov 16, 2018 19:25:42 GMT -5
That...makes no sense, canon-wise. Leafpool and Jayfeather (and Hollyleaf, Lionblaze, Dovewing, and Firestar, but I'm addressing the aspect of medicine cats specifically) decide all the time what omens to keep quiet or to themselves. They don't report everything to their leaders, as this sentence implies that they should. This is saying they have to because they have no choice, but if that's the case, they break that rule constantly. Leafpool kept the secret about the "lake will turn red" or whatever to herself, and the omen that Spottedleaf sent her about Mothwing, as well as her dreams with StarClan later, like with Cinderheart and she found out she was her. If this was the case, she should be telling the cats concerned, since she told Squirrelflight about the vision specifically addressing Squirrelflight and Bramblestar. Ravenwing announced Mapleshade's secret to the whole Clan. If this is a rule, medicine cats should announce every sign, no matter how vague, to the Clan, or at least their leader. Now, maybe she couldn't tell Firestar about the "the lake will turn red" one (even though, again, this is basically saying that no sign can be left unreported...?) because she didn't know who it pertained to, but she found out about Cinderheart and told nobody. Jayfeather didn't, either, when he first found out when Cinderheart was an apprentice. Leafpool didn't inform RiverClan about Mothwing, even though it was a dangerous secret, if they needed Mothwing to commune with their ancestors. For all she knew, StarClan was telling her to reveal Mothwing's secret, because it endangered RiverClan in the same way that Ravenwing revealed Mapleshade's (which, on the scale of danger, was much less dangerous than Mothwing's secret). They just got lucky that Willowshine could provide that connection. For a while there, Leafpool also thought StarClan had sent her to the Dark Forest, but she didn't tell Firestar or anyone else about that. She thought she was sent there for a reason, and then she saw Tigerstar with his sons and said nothing to anyone. If that was an omen like she thought it was, she kept it to herself, despite knowing that Tigerstar could speak to his sons and inflict wounds on them (I'm pretty sure she noticed Bramblestar had gotten himself hurt one night when he reopened his wound). There are quite a few other examples of prophecies, omens, signs that medicine cats keep to themselves, even if it has to do with one cat specifically, or several cats. Like, literally part of a medicine cat's job is, arguably, secrecy. They have to keep StarClan's visions and signs to themselves tons of times. Hell, they aren't even allowed to report what they see at the Moonstone/Moonpool half the time, and usually only discuss it amongst themselves! Those were when the omens were unknown or no threat. Cinderheart being Cinderpelt was no threat and Starclan's will. And the blood will blood spill vision could literally be meant anything, especially it implies blood family. So even telling the leader could be risky and it turns out it did. It turned out to be about the deputy, who could of easily been be informed about the omen if Leader chooses to. By the time the meaning was more clear, the issue had already been resolved, Brambleclaw killed Hawkfrost, making telling of the omen useless. While Ravenwing had figured out the meaning, they were dealing with a clear threat that concerned the whole of Thunderclan: a lying and traitorous Clanmate who possibly dangerous, a Riverclan allie amoung their ranks. Ravenwing receiving an Omen about it from Starclan themselves confirms they didn't want things to left as it was; Appledusk and Mapleshade carrying on their lies and secrets meetings - And Starclan wanted the secret exposed in some way. Just like when Yellowfang gave Jayfeather the crow feather. Also, it's implied Ravenwing only told Oakstar, not loudly announcing the Whole Clan: It was Oakstar's choose to hold the trial and tell the rest of Thunderclan. But the medicine cats wouldn't know that it's not dangerous then? They say all the time that signs reveal their meanings all the time in secret ways...so they don't know what's dangerous or not. And with "the lake will turn red" thing...uhhh, that sounds very dangerous to me lol That omen was not benign. She was horrified by it and knew it meant nothing good, and was anxious about what it meant. Didn't she even think at some point that it meant an awful battle of some sort? For all she knew, maybe that was a warning from StarClan for ThunderClan to prepare itself. She herself interpreted it as an upcoming danger. She should've reported it to Firestar, at the very least, if Ravenwing told Oakstar about Mapleshade and her kits, because he perceived that as dangerous. Leafpool perceived that sign as dangerous multiple times when thinking about it, as Ravenwing did with Mapleshade's. That's not even touching on the lake turning red with blood. That can mean nothing good. It doesn't matter that she hadn't figured out its full meaning. She knew something dangerous was going to happen. She didn't know if it was literal (blood relations) or not (battles), which would be why that'd be important to tell Firestar. It implied a potential threat -- especially right after the badgers and WindClan's civil war, when they're in a new territory. In this case, it meant both literally and symbolically, but no, it did not have any signs relating to family. We, the readers, know that it related to both. Most of the time, the medicine cats don't know what's happening. That's why Leafpool was anxious about that sign, as well as several others she received. She was horrified when she found out about Mothwing's lack of faith and did worry about what it meant for RiverClan if their medicine cat didn't believe, but she said nothing. Did it turn out okay? Yes, but Leafpool didn't know that. It's the same thing when she found out about Cinderheart. She didn't know what would happen. She apparently can't decide herself that it's harmless. Hell, maybe Mothwing's issue would become dangerous even years later for whatever reason. She couldn't know that it apparently won't. When this occurred, they hadn't even been by the lake for more than a couple months, had they? There were dangers at every turn, and everyone, including her, were worried about how new the territory was and its hidden dangers. And how is her not mentioning her supposed visit (as she thought StarClan sent her there for a reason) to the Dark Forest seen as harmless? She herself thought it was a sign. She saw Tigerstar there and knew his history, and what he did to ThunderClan. Out of all the signs, that's one that should've been reported, because as far as she knew, she'd been placed there deliberately to discover what Bramblestar, Hawkfrost, and Tigerstar were doing so that she could tell her leader as a warning that Bramblestar wasn't to be trusted and he was a traitor. That's especially the case after she realized cats could get wounds, even in their dreams in the Dark Forest. It isn't until later that StarClan sent the vision of the brambles surrounding camp, so there was a span of time when again, as far as she knew, Bramblestar was a threat to the Clan. You saying "So even telling the leader could be risky and it turns out it did. It turned out to be about the deputy, who could of easily been be informed about the omen if Leader chooses to" shouldn't matter in this context, if what Leafpool's right about not keeping omens to themselves. StarClan did tell her. They said the warning words to Leafpool. A medicine cat gets omens, and then they report it to the leader, and help interpret it. If the text from this book is true, they can't keep any omen a secret, because they don't know what it could mean and must tell their leader/someone straightaway. Isn't that what Ravenwing apparently did when he found out about Mapleshade, after he'd warned her that he knew? I haven't read the book in ages...so was it that same day, the next day, or within a few days? What would be the purpose of Leafpool waiting as long as she always had (like with the lake will turn red; she told Squirrelflight about that vision by the lake the next day, iirc, and obviously told Firestar asap about the sign from StarClan about Bramblestar being deputy) if it was reported too late? She waited until something awful did finally happen. Whether Firestar took Leafpool's vision seriously or not would be up to him, just like Oakstar decided to take Ravenwing's findings seriously. What if Bramblestar and Hawkfrost did kill Firestar? Apparently medicine cats don't get to decide what's dangerous or not, and what's important or not, because they don't know if it is. If we want to say they can keep seemingly harmless signs to themselves, then couldn't Leafpool have come to the conclusion that Mothwing's sign was dangerous? At least she had solid evidence that it sort of was, and could get even worse.Leafpool knew Mothwing was lying about Stormfur and Brook. Maybe Stormfur was meant to be leader of RiverClan one day, but then his destiny was derailed by being exiled by Mothwing's lie? Or when Heavystep died, showing that Mothwing's lack of a sign was dangerous, when StarClan needed to contact Mothwing about the catmint? How did Leafpool know Spottedleaf didn't want her to tell the Clans, or at least her leader, about Mothwing? Maybe StarClan was telling Leafpool to put together all the past events with Mothwing's poor medicine cat skills (Reedwhisker's near drowning, the poisoning, the catmint, etc.) and realize Mothwing was a danger to her Clan? Ravenwing's sign sounds vague, too, like almost all other prophecies/omens/visions/signs, but he managed to interpret it as dangerous for the Clan's safety, so he told Oakstar. That case can be said for all the prophecies, so they must be reported, right? Leafpool shouldn't have decided for herself to keep it a secret if this paragraph rings true, because the implications of danger and then the events after she discovered the truth (no catmint in RiverClan when they needed it, Stormfur's exile, realizing Hawkfrost was literally using Mothwing for his own gain, etc.) can argue that this stuff kept circling back to Mothwing's lie, which maybe should've been revealed once Leafpool found out the truth. Instead, she agreed to lie and help Mothwing secretly, and even went as far as to interpret RiverClan signs, as seen when Willowshine visited ThunderClan in PO3. Maybe Mothwing's lie should've been revealed so that Hawkfrost could be exiled for faking something so important to the Clans? Since him staying came to bite them in the tail later (plotting Firestar's murder), perhaps StarClan wanted Leafpool to tell someone about it. Maybe they were telling Leafpool to say something, because Mothwing's lack of faith would have bigger consequences later? It's not like they could go to Mothwing themselves and say "Tell the truth" because she had no connection to them. This is basically saying that StarClan showing Leafpool that Mothwing and Hawkfrost lied was important as hell, and she was the only one who could say something about it, before serious danger struck and Mothwing couldn't be there to stop it due to her lack of connection with StarClan and not being able to send her a warning in time. After all, ThunderClan's on the other side of the lake. What if the sign was saying that Leafpool wouldn't always be there to help Mothwing, so something needed to be done so Leopardstar was aware that there was a liar and traitor (because that's what Mothwing was, by lying and deceiving the Clans' beliefs; she was complicit with Hawkfrost's traitorous lie and continued to be a traitor herself and lie until Mistystar found out the truth, though by that point, Willowshine was a medicine cat...but not experienced enough, btw, and couldn't heal the sickness in RiverClan, which was why Mothwing had to be reinstated) in their midst? Anything that could've been connected to Mothwing that might have potentially been StarClan's hint to reveal the truth, Mothwing didn't see it that way since she could not interpret signs/omens/visions/whatever, so perhaps it was up to Leafpool to say something, seeing as how StarClan came to Leafpool directly? Like I said, Leafpool didn't know what could happen, and then bad stuff did happen as a result of Mothwing's lie, yet she said nothing. She decided to keep quiet, and she interpreted it as harmless. This is saying all signs must be reported, unless StarClan explicitly says for the medicine cat to keep it to themselves, which they did not in the case of the lake sign, finding out about Cinderheart, etc. It's the medicine cats themselves deciding to keep quiet. Like you said, the omens were unknown, but it's certainly not definite or explicitly said in text that they were harmless or no threat. This whole "reveal everything" makes no sense, in relation to the rest of the series and how secrecy is apparently such an intricate part of the medicine cats' duties.
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Post by Mistybreeze on Nov 16, 2018 19:46:04 GMT -5
Just because it's the right thing to do doesn't mean they will actually do it. There have been times that Leafpool, Jayfeather, etc should have told Firestar something and didn't. Ravenwing never should have told Oakstar about his "vision" (I still have doubts whether or not there actually was one). But they have free will and chose to do the wrong thing.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Nov 17, 2018 0:34:16 GMT -5
Ravenwing could have told people he should have waited tell the kits were older
hes trash and unless he gets the crowfeathers trial treatement, I'll forever think hes a big ol jerk
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 5:36:55 GMT -5
Ravenwing could have told people he should have waited tell the kits were older hes trash and unless he gets the crowfeathers trial treatement, I'll forever think hes a big ol jerk <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.120000000000005px; height: 3.9799999999999898px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_82929389" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_98177124" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 139px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_15386903" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: 139px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_12240150" scrolling="no"></iframe> I won't consider anyone being a "jerk" for literally not lying about crimes they have no personal connection with and unfairly got wrapped up in by chance and expected to become a crimainal themselves to protect it. Especially when it's also exposing the possible threat to the entire group and told by their equivalent of "gods". When is their duty and job, which they ain't meant to let personal feelings influence.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 6:13:16 GMT -5
Ravenwing could have told people he should have waited tell the kits were older hes trash and unless he gets the crowfeathers trial treatement, I'll forever think hes a big ol jerk <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.120000000000005px; height: 3.9799999999999898px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_82929389" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_98177124" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 139px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_15386903" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: 139px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_12240150" scrolling="no"></iframe> I won't consider anyone being a "jerk" for literally not lying about crimes they have no personal connection with and unfairly got wrapped up in by chance and expected to become a crimainal themselves to protect it. Especially when it's also exposing the possible threat to the entire group and told by their equivalent of "gods". When is their duty and job, which they ain't meant to let personal feelings influence. I will definitely consider someone a jerk when they put the lives of three innocent children on the line due to their sense of duty. If it were any other medicine cat they would have kept their mouth shut. Ravenwing knee how badly Oakstar would react—even saying he felt sorry for the kits because of it. But he blabbed anyway. So yeah, knowingly putting children in danger because of the mistake of their parents makes that person a massive jerk (and much worse).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 7:14:44 GMT -5
<iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.120000000000005px; height: 3.9799999999999898px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_82929389" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_98177124" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 139px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_15386903" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="19.120000000000005" height="3.9799999999999898" style="position: absolute; width: 19.12px; height: 3.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 900px; top: 139px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_12240150" scrolling="no"></iframe> I won't consider anyone being a "jerk" for literally not lying about crimes they have no personal connection with and unfairly got wrapped up in by chance and expected to become a crimainal themselves to protect it. Especially when it's also exposing the possible threat to the entire group and told by their equivalent of "gods". When is their duty and job, which they ain't meant to let personal feelings influence. I will definitely consider someone a jerk when they put the lives of three innocent children on the line due to their sense of duty. If it were any other medicine cat they would have kept their mouth shut. Ravenwing knee how badly Oakstar would react—even saying he felt sorry for the kits because of it. But he blabbed anyway. So yeah, knowingly putting children in danger because of the mistake of their parents makes that person a massive jerk (and much worse). You can't say other Medicine cats "wouldn't have done this" considering no other character has been put into a situation. Also, it's only the cats reacting to the information like Oakstar and the rest of Thunderclan who put the kits in danger, when they banished. It'd Mapleshade and Appledusk were putting the kits in danger just for having them in the first place, and continued to risk their exposure by taking them to the Riverclan border for a casually walk. The secret would of came out one way or the other. So how they got it is irreverent and there's a very good reason why "snitching" has never been a crime. It's the reasonability of the judge to be reasonable with their verdicts, not the accuser. Just like how people don't blame Graypool for Stonepelt's death when she was the one who exposed - Because it was Tigerstar who choose what to do with the information, resulting in their execution. Just like it was only Oakstar's choose to banish the kits. Ravenwing is young and it's not a requirement of Medicine cats to know their Leaders inside and out. He couldn't of know how Oakstar would of reacted. And you need to remember: Ravenwing got an omen from Starclan themselves. And by not "endangering three children", he would of endangered literally everyone else in Thunderclan of their 20+ members, including Elders, Apprentices and yes, other Queens and kits. It's a majority over the individuals. Ravenwing wasn't just exposing the kits, but also a traitor and liar, who's mates with Appledusk, the Riverclan who supposedly killed two of the Clanmates already. Mapleshade could of very easily been a Riverclan spy. Heck, Ravenwing even seen himself that Mapleshade had sneaked to the Riverclan border to speak with him. She could of very easily: Leaked information, trigger a battle or even attack/kill a clanmate herself for all Ravenwing knew. While Mapleshade remained unexposed, she put the whole Clan at risk.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 8:36:34 GMT -5
Essay time:
Ravenwing confirmed to have no ill-tent. Simply revealed the secret because he felt forced by his duty as Medicine cat because Starclan themselves told him to and his Clanmates had the fight to know when one of them is traitor by mating with an enemy cat who killed two of their own. Even guilty/remorseful, not truly wanting to do it:
“You have told me plenty,” Ravenwing responded, and there was *sadness in his sky-colored eyes*. “The truth must come out.” “Please don’t say anything!” Mapleshade begged. “These are ThunderClan’s kits!” “They are half RiverClan,” Ravenwing corrected, his voice as hard as ice. “Our Clanmates deserve to know. I’m sorry, Mapleshade. Sorry for you, but even sorrier for these kits. They will end up suffering for the lies that you have told.” - Chapter 3 of Mapleshade's vengeance.
Mapleshade is a massive hypocrite, as reasonable, if not more, for her kits’ deaths as any of her victims: Being banished for her crimes/lies and making them swim in dangerous waters. It was Oakstar who choose to exile innocent kits and endanger them and his alone. Ravenwing shouldn’t be blamed for Oakstar’s or Mapleshade’s crimes. He received an omen from Starclan themselves and simply fulfilled his duty as a Medicine cat , interpreted it and told his leader. It’s even apart of the Medicine cat code: “A medicine cat must be able to interpret signs from StarClan.”. He shouldn’t be punished for not being willing to become a liar/traitor himself, just to protect someone from their own crimes. Especially when he’s Thunderclan only Medicine cat, with everyone relying on him to keep them alive. Medicine cat lying have never ended well: Both Yellowfang and Leafpool’s kits were ‘punished by Starclan’ with Brokenstar’s crimes and Jayfeather’s blindness. Also, Hawkfrost faking an omen and manipulating his Medicine cat sister is one of the reasons he’s in the Dark Forest.
I feel like people have impossible standards for Ravenwing, it’s impossible for him not to either lie/betray or snitch. He has no choice but to choose a side and ‘betray’ the other. Mapleshade was a traitor and danger to the Clan. She could have: Leaked information to Riverclan, Constantly trespassed on enemy territory, etc. All things that could of provoked more attacks from Riverclan, worsening the war and possibly leading to many deaths. Mapleshade could of even attacked/killed a Clanmate herself for all Ravenwing knew.
And she already doing things like that; by taking herself and her kits so close to the Riverclan border and speaking to Appledusk. It was lucky the Riverclan patrol simply escorted them out and only a Medicine cat witnessed it, it could of easily been taken the wrong way and led to a battle.
Ravenwing must choice between one traitor+Unknown gamble with their kits or literally everyone else, including other Queens/Kits, Elders and Apprentices. Ravenwing chooses to protect the majority over the individual. Once again, I’d like to reinforce the fact that Ravenwing had no way of knowing Oakstar would exile the kits. Medicine cats ain't expected to get to know the Leader personally. Specially since this involved Oakstar's son, he would of act multiple ways. Another factor, that I think should offer him some leeway, is the fact he’s young and inexperienced, even less reason why he wouldn't really know his leader. His mentor, Oatspeckle had died just 4 moons before Ravenwing was sent this omen from Starclan themselves and forced to make this very tricky decision. So Ravenwing thought he could rely on his more experienced leader to make a right decision. Unfortunately, Oakstar just so happened to turn out to be a terrible leader, deciding to punish kits for their parents’ crimes. It the reasonability of the Leader/Judge to be fair with their verdicts, not the accuser.
Also take note that Ravenwing never does state the kits should be punished or showed signs of supporting it. The only quote thing that may be interpreted as that is: "They will end up suffering for the lies that you have told.". However 'suffering' is an extremely vague and broad term, which literally refer to anything. It very specifically meaning Ravenwing will know for sure that the Oakstar would exile the kits, despite it being against the code, is very unbelievable to me.
Also take note, he was referring to Mapleshade's lies. Of course, they would suffer, they'd discover that their mother lied to them, their father alive and was the Riverclan cat who killed two of their Clanmates.
It could mean anything from: The kits suffering from discovering their mother lied to them or watching their mother get rightfully punished (Having kits is not an excuse to escape her crimes, it wasn't for Tigerclaw). There was nothing to suggest the kits would actually get punished for someone else's crimes. Those would of more likely happened: Mapleshade is allowed to stay just under close watch or they are adopted by another Queen while Mapleshade is punished for her crimes. Sure, Thunderclan may react negatively, but to actually do something official to them, is again, was very unlikely and only happened because Oakstar was a terrible leader.
He took a neutral stance during the whole situation, only focused on getting Mapleshade to admit the truth. It wasn’t his place to advice on Clan Politics without being asked by the leader first, it was up to the rest of Thunderclan to decide what they did with the information. He had no way of knowing how the Clan would react, there were many possibilities: Only Mapleshade was banished while the kits were adopted by another Queen, allowed to stay but kept a close eye, etc. The fact the worst case scenario happened was nothing more then bad luck on Ravenwing’s part, that he ended up with a terrible leader and a storm that day.
To fault or even blame Ravenwing for not foresight such ridiculous unlikely event, I find unfair. Especially, when literally everyone else in the Clan said nothing, including the deputy Beetail and Mapleshade's mentor, Bloomheart. I always had the mentality you punish no one or you punish everyone.
Even then, being exiled isn't an anatomical death sentence for the kits. Many kits have travelled long distances without dying. Also, most rouges/loners are able to raise their kits without the support of territory or Clanmates. When Oakstar exiled the kits, it was obvious to the whole Clan, Mapleshade would take them to Riverclan. It was only a short trip. Even earlier in the book, Mapleshade had managed to take them to the border with no trouble. A storm happening on that day was completely unpredictable and nothing more than a coincidence.
And to Ravenwing himself, had seen how they'd probably be better off in Riverclan anyway. From what he heard from Rabbitfur, they could barely function on land, not even able to pounce properly yet saw himself they were very good swimmers, even without training. Everyone would also be safer. The kits wouldn't be judged or in danger from any revengeful Clanmates like Frecklewish, due to their father being reasonable for two Thunderclan cats' deaths. It also worked the other way around, just in case the Omen was warning about the kits being future evil, they'd be far less dangerous if they weren't in Thunderclan itself. Even better, everyone including the kits and Frecklewish/Oakstar would know the truth of their 'kin', knowing how they were had lied to. It would be painful at first, but better to know the truth then lies. In Riverclan, the family wouldn't be forced to live separately and they know their true father is alive and be with him. Mapleshade's kits also wouldn't be as harshly judged and just generally be in a better environment for them.
I think it's safe to say why Ravenwing didn't stop the kits' exile, it was best for them and everyone else, that they were in Riverclan. The only 'risk' factor Ravenwing took: was simply to reply on Mapleshade, a fully grown warrior, to be able to transport three kits a reasonably short distance without getting them killed, in a territory she knows extremely well. Something many have none in the past, even she herself did earlier that day. Which personally for me anyway, I say is pretty reasonable expectation of Mapleshade.
This is actually situation Fireheart was in. They were both dealing with: a tom who had, at least tried or succeed, in killing 2 of their clanmates (At the time at least) but was also the father of young kits. Who’s victims were personally connected to the Leader, which may of risked bias in their verdict (Birchface=Oakstar and Redtail/Herself=Bluestar).
And Ravenwing/Firestar had the choose expose the traitors or not – If they exposed them; it would mean they’d be less of a danger to the Clan and be punished for their crimes however there may be unforeseen consequences for their friends/families. Or leave the traitor unexposed by becoming a liar themselves (Ravenwing/Fireheart), allow the traitor to carry on being a danger to the Clan, but it would it mean nothing could happen to the friends/families.
The only thing separating Fireheart and Ravenwing, is luck. Fireheart was lucky enough to have a decent leader. If it was another leader, they could of easily lashed out at murderer’s mate and kits. Then we could just have a repeat of Mapleshade, if Goldenflower and Tigerstar’s kits died after they were exiled/left willingly with Tigerclaw, would that justify one of them killing Fireheart later on? As for what happened in the canon, Tigerclaw’s friends and kin’s lives were still deeply affected by Fireheart exposing his crimes: All of them mistrusted/judged by their Clanmates including a Queen/kits, insulted and even yelled at for it, pressuring them to go into exile, which eventually led to Tawnypaw to actually defect to Shadowclan.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 13:52:41 GMT -5
I personally disagree.
I’m going to list all of the current medicine cats and note what I think they’d do:
Leafpool: If she even slightly suspected that bramblestar would flip his lid, she’d keep quiet.
Jayfeather: He’d ream out the parents; he may say something but if it meant putting kits in danger he most likely wouldn’t say anything.
Alderheart: lol no
Kestrelflight: he’s disobeyed his leader directly before because it meant saving another clan; I doubt he would put duty before saving lives.
Mothwing: another no. She would fight for them if it came to it knowing her personality.
Willowshine: Same as Mothwing; she’s argued with leaders before, she’d do it again.
Puddleshine: I highly doubt it. He’s too kind.
Look, I get what you’re saying. I just disagree with it because I don’t think that “duty” is a good excuse for allowing suffering to take place. And nah, I really truly doubt that ravenwing had zero clue of the absolute rage that oakstar would unleash. He feels bad for the kits; he wants to punish mapleshade and just ends up indirectly causing the death of her children.
He could have kept quiet. He could have been a caring medicine cat (like any of the above that I’ve listed) but instead he decided that he was so married to his job that he was perfectly fine risking the safety of three innocent children for the crime of their parents.
You can say that ravenwing didn’t think oakstar would exile him, but he certainly believed that not only would they be punished, but that they would suffer—and still he tattled.
This is just a really staunch stance I have. Ravenwing *is* a jerk. If you think children are at risk of being hurt, and you have a choice between their safety and your pride, you should *always* choose their safety. He could have spoken up and tried to keep the kits st the very Least, but he was complicit with their exile despite their innocence. That’s not a good medicine cat, that’s not a cat loyal to the code (in that he’s allowing kits to be put at risk); that’s a jerk.
Just how there was “no guarantee” that oakstar would exile him, there was also no guarantee that the kits wouldn’t be loyal to their birth clan. It feels more like a petty excuse for ravenwing to say “well this bad thing COULD happen so I’m going to let this other bad thing DEFINITELY happen.” It just doesn’t make sense. When mistystar and Stonefur found out about their thunderclan heritage they didn’t feel loyalty to thunderclan; they stayed loyal to their birth clan. The same can be said for the three, and I’m sure it’ll be the same for dovetiger kits. It’s a bad excuse, and he shouldn’t have said anything.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 14:18:25 GMT -5
I personally disagree. I’m going to list all of the current medicine cats and note what I think they’d do: Leafpool: If she even slightly suspected that bramblestar would flip his lid, she’d keep quiet. Jayfeather: He’d ream out the parents; he may say something but if it meant putting kits in danger he most likely wouldn’t say anything. Alderheart: lol no Kestrelflight: he’s disobeyed his leader directly before because it meant saving another clan; I doubt he would put duty before saving lives. Mothwing: another no. She would fight for them if it came to it knowing her personality. Willowshine: Same as Mothwing; she’s argued with leaders before, she’d do it again. Puddleshine: I highly doubt it. He’s too kind. Look, I get what you’re saying. I just disagree with it because I don’t think that “duty” is a good excuse for allowing suffering to take place. And nah, I really truly doubt that ravenwing had zero clue of the absolute rage that oakstar would unleash. He feels bad for the kits; he wants to punish mapleshade and just ends up indirectly causing the death of her children. He could have kept quiet. He could have been a caring medicine cat (like any of the above that I’ve listed) but instead he decided that he was so married to his job that he was perfectly fine risking the safety of three innocent children for the crime of their parents. You can say that ravenwing didn’t think oakstar would exile him, but he certainly believed that not only would they be punished, but that they would suffer—and still he tattled. This is just a really staunch stance I have. Ravenwing *is* a jerk. If you think children are at risk of being hurt, and you have a choice between their safety and your pride, you should *always* choose their safety. He could have spoken up and tried to keep the kits st the very Least, but he was complicit with their exile despite their innocence. That’s not a good medicine cat, that’s not a cat loyal to the code (in that he’s allowing kits to be put at risk); that’s a jerk. Despite the fact Ravenwing would be putting other children's lives at risk if he allowed a Riverclan spy to remained unexposed, including, other kits in the nursery, future unborn kits and apprentices, who are equivalent of teenagers. Ravenwing wasn't doing it because of his pride. He's not a prideful cat, he's sympathetic and nervous after his mentor's death. He thinks his Clan deserves to know when one of their Clanmate is traitor and lied, who carried on being loyal to her Riverclan mate above her Clan, after he murdered two of her Clanmates. Then used one of his murder victim and his grieving family for her own benefits. That's gross. Anyone should definitely has the right to know when they were being tricked into raising the deceased son's/brother's children, when actually his murderer's. Also, he trying to expose a traitor who a danger to the Clan, who's already he's seen sneak to the border to speak with Appledusk, planning god know what. Also that not for justice works. Criminals ain't allowed to get away with their crimes/unexposed, just because they have young children. Just like when Fireheart decided to expose to Tigerclaw, who had young kits. Which actually lead to Tawnypaw being pressured out of Thunderclan. The Warrior Code says not to punish kits, giving Ravenwing even more assurance they'd be fine.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 14:28:24 GMT -5
I personally disagree. I’m going to list all of the current medicine cats and note what I think they’d do: Leafpool: If she even slightly suspected that bramblestar would flip his lid, she’d keep quiet. Jayfeather: He’d ream out the parents; he may say something but if it meant putting kits in danger he most likely wouldn’t say anything. Alderheart: lol no Kestrelflight: he’s disobeyed his leader directly before because it meant saving another clan; I doubt he would put duty before saving lives. Mothwing: another no. She would fight for them if it came to it knowing her personality. Willowshine: Same as Mothwing; she’s argued with leaders before, she’d do it again. Puddleshine: I highly doubt it. He’s too kind. Look, I get what you’re saying. I just disagree with it because I don’t think that “duty” is a good excuse for allowing suffering to take place. And nah, I really truly doubt that ravenwing had zero clue of the absolute rage that oakstar would unleash. He feels bad for the kits; he wants to punish mapleshade and just ends up indirectly causing the death of her children. He could have kept quiet. He could have been a caring medicine cat (like any of the above that I’ve listed) but instead he decided that he was so married to his job that he was perfectly fine risking the safety of three innocent children for the crime of their parents. You can say that ravenwing didn’t think oakstar would exile him, but he certainly believed that not only would they be punished, but that they would suffer—and still he tattled. This is just a really staunch stance I have. Ravenwing *is* a jerk. If you think children are at risk of being hurt, and you have a choice between their safety and your pride, you should *always* choose their safety. He could have spoken up and tried to keep the kits st the very Least, but he was complicit with their exile despite their innocence. That’s not a good medicine cat, that’s not a cat loyal to the code (in that he’s allowing kits to be put at risk); that’s a jerk. Despite the fact Ravenwing would be putting other children's lives at risk if he allowed a Riverclan spy to remained unexposed, including, other kits in the nursery, future unborn kits and apprentices, who are equivalent of teenagers. Also that not for justice works. Criminals ain't allowed to get away with their crimes/unexposed, just because they have young children. Just like when Fireheart decided to expose to Tigerclaw, who had young kits. Mapleshade wasn’t a riverclan spy?? She wanted to mend the clan relationships. Granted, it was a stupid and convoluted way to go about it, but she didn’t have I’ll intent when her kits were alive. Once again, can you name *any* half clan kits that are not loyal to their birth clan, even knowing their heritage? And that’s fine, I agree, but mapleshade was specifically kicked out for having kits. Her children were not criminals and did not deserve to be punished by they were anyway. Should we banish Bramblekit and Tawnykit because their father committed a crime? No, of course not. Was leafpool banished? No, she lost her position but got it back. Was covering banished? No, she chose to leave, but I doubt bramblestar would have banished her. Oakheart wasn’t banished despite his kits being have clan either. There is not one instance aside from mapleshade that we know of, where a clan cat was banished for an outer clan relationship. Hell, riverclan stole back willow and graypool in spite of the fact that they were half clan. Punishment is fine when it’s warranted. This punishment, especially with the kits facing the collateral damage, is not. Ravenwing knew it would be horrible, but he risked their lives for his pride/sense of duty anyway. He could have waited until the kits were older and apprenticed because at least then they’d be more ingratiated into thunderclan and seen as an asset. Instead he lets the equivalent of toddlers get kicked out of the only home they’ve ever known because their mom broke a rule. That’s still a crappy medicine cat. Any cat that knowingly and of clear mind who puts kits in any sort of danger is a bad cat. And it doesn’t matter that there was assurance, because he still believed the kits would suffer upon the truth coming out. By allowing the truth to come out he KNEW he was risking the safety of the kits. So no, again, ravenwing was unjustified and his reasoning is heavily flawed. I’m not saying mapleshade was innocent. Tbh the only innocent characters in the book are the kits, reedshine, and perchpaw. However, ravenwing was certainly not innocent in that he admitted he knew suffering would happen, even admitting the guilt he felt knowing that his revealing of the truth would cause it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 14:36:48 GMT -5
Despite the fact Ravenwing would be putting other children's lives at risk if he allowed a Riverclan spy to remained unexposed, including, other kits in the nursery, future unborn kits and apprentices, who are equivalent of teenagers. Also that not for justice works. Criminals ain't allowed to get away with their crimes/unexposed, just because they have young children. Just like when Fireheart decided to expose to Tigerclaw, who had young kits. Mapleshade wasn’t a riverclan spy?? She wanted to mend the clan relationships. Granted, it was a stupid and convoluted way to go about it, but she didn’t have I’ll intent when her kits were alive. Once again, can you name *any* half clan kits that are not loyal to their birth clan, even knowing their heritage? And that’s fine, I agree, but mapleshade was specifically kicked out for having kits. Her children were not criminals and did not deserve to be punished by they were anyway. Should we banish Bramblekit and Tawnykit because their father committed a crime? No, of course not. Was leafpool banished? No, she lost her position but got it back. Was covering banished? No, she chose to leave, but I doubt bramblestar would have banished her. Oakheart wasn’t banished despite his kits being have clan either. There is not one instance aside from mapleshade that we know of, where a clan cat was banished for an outer clan relationship. Hell, riverclan stole back willow and graypool in spite of the fact that they were half clan. Punishment is fine when it’s warranted. This punishment, especially with the kits facing the collateral damage, is not. Ravenwing knew it would be horrible, but he risked their lives for his pride/sense of duty anyway. He could have waited until the kits were older and apprenticed because at least then they’d be more ingratiated into thunderclan and seen as an asset. Instead he lets the equivalent of toddlers get kicked out of the only home they’ve ever known because their mom broke a rule. That’s still a crappy medicine cat. Any cat that knowingly and of clear mind who puts kits in any sort of danger is a bad cat. And it doesn’t matter that there was assurance, because he still believed the kits would suffer upon the truth coming out. By allowing the truth to come out he KNEW he was risking the safety of the kits. So no, again, ravenwing was unjustified and his reasoning is heavily flawed. I’m not saying mapleshade was innocent. Tbh the only innocent characters in the book are the kits, reedshine, and perchpaw. However, ravenwing was certainly not innocent in that he admitted he knew suffering would happen, even admitting the guilt he felt knowing that his revealing of the truth would cause it. Well, I think the truth comes above all. It's always the fault of the people who choose what to do with the information, never the snitch.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 14:41:40 GMT -5
Mapleshade wasn’t a riverclan spy?? She wanted to mend the clan relationships. Granted, it was a stupid and convoluted way to go about it, but she didn’t have I’ll intent when her kits were alive. Once again, can you name *any* half clan kits that are not loyal to their birth clan, even knowing their heritage? And that’s fine, I agree, but mapleshade was specifically kicked out for having kits. Her children were not criminals and did not deserve to be punished by they were anyway. Should we banish Bramblekit and Tawnykit because their father committed a crime? No, of course not. Was leafpool banished? No, she lost her position but got it back. Was covering banished? No, she chose to leave, but I doubt bramblestar would have banished her. Oakheart wasn’t banished despite his kits being have clan either. There is not one instance aside from mapleshade that we know of, where a clan cat was banished for an outer clan relationship. Hell, riverclan stole back willow and graypool in spite of the fact that they were half clan. Punishment is fine when it’s warranted. This punishment, especially with the kits facing the collateral damage, is not. Ravenwing knew it would be horrible, but he risked their lives for his pride/sense of duty anyway. He could have waited until the kits were older and apprenticed because at least then they’d be more ingratiated into thunderclan and seen as an asset. Instead he lets the equivalent of toddlers get kicked out of the only home they’ve ever known because their mom broke a rule. That’s still a crappy medicine cat. Any cat that knowingly and of clear mind who puts kits in any sort of danger is a bad cat. And it doesn’t matter that there was assurance, because he still believed the kits would suffer upon the truth coming out. By allowing the truth to come out he KNEW he was risking the safety of the kits. So no, again, ravenwing was unjustified and his reasoning is heavily flawed. I’m not saying mapleshade was innocent. Tbh the only innocent characters in the book are the kits, reedshine, and perchpaw. However, ravenwing was certainly not innocent in that he admitted he knew suffering would happen, even admitting the guilt he felt knowing that his revealing of the truth would cause it. Well, I think the truth comes above all. It's always the fault of the people who choose what to do with the information, never the snitch. That’s fairs and that’s your belief. I agree up to a certain point. If the truth will cause small harm but will be better in the end? Sure. If the truth causes three children to die and a murderspree to take place then nah, that truth is getting locked down. If the snitch knows that innocents will suffer greatly due to the truth, then they really shouldn’t say anything. Punish the sinner, sure, but keep the innocents safe. If you can’t keep them safe by outing the sinner, wait until a better time so that you can protect them, as was part of Ravenwing’s duty. He could have spoken up, and still he refused. If he was so hell bent on punishing mapleshade he could have told the truth but tried to convince oakstar to keep the kits. *That* would have been acceptable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 14:48:10 GMT -5
Despite the fact Ravenwing would be putting other children's lives at risk if he allowed a Riverclan spy to remained unexposed, including, other kits in the nursery, future unborn kits and apprentices, who are equivalent of teenagers. Also that not for justice works. Criminals ain't allowed to get away with their crimes/unexposed, just because they have young children. Just like when Fireheart decided to expose to Tigerclaw, who had young kits. Mapleshade wasn’t a riverclan spy?? She wanted to mend the clan relationships. Granted, it was a stupid and convoluted way to go about it, but she didn’t have I’ll intent when her kits were alive. Once again, can you name *any* half clan kits that are not loyal to their birth clan, even knowing their heritage? How is Ravenwing meant to know Mapelshade wanted to "unit the Clans"? She carried on being loyal mate to the Riverclan cat who murdered two of Clanmates. Accidental or not, that clearly shows she values him more then her Clan. For Ravenwing knew; she could be leaking information to Riverclan, Trigger unnecessary battles and deaths by trespassing or even attack/kill a Clanmates herself. And that’s fine, I agree, but mapleshade was specifically kicked out for having kits. Her children were not criminals and did not deserve to be punished by they were anyway. Should we banish Bramblekit and Tawnykit because their father committed a crime? No, of course not. Was leafpool banished? No, she lost her position but got it back. Was covering banished? No, she chose to leave, but I doubt bramblestar would have banished her. Oakheart wasn’t banished despite his kits being have clan either. There is not one instance aside from mapleshade that we know of, where a clan cat was banished for an outer clan relationship. Hell, riverclan stole back willow and graypool in spite of the fact that they were half clan. You misunderstand my point. This isn't about the kits being Half-clan. Instead, i was talking about how a criminal having young children is never an exuse for them to get away scott-free or unexposed. Not in real life or in Warriors. Fireheart doesn't get any criticism for doing the exact same thing as Ravenwing: exposing a traitor with young kits. Only difference is, is luck. One got a good leader, the other didn't. It's not the reasonability of the accuser for the Judge's verdicts to be reasonable. Punishment is fine when it’s warranted. This punishment, especially with the kits facing the collateral damage, is not. Ravenwing knew it would be horrible, but he risked their lives for his pride/sense of duty anyway. He could have waited until the kits were older and apprenticed because at least then they’d be more ingratiated into thunderclan and seen as an asset. Instead he lets the equivalent of toddlers get kicked out of the only home they’ve ever known because their mom broke a rule. That’s still a crappy medicine cat. Any cat that knowingly and of clear mind who puts kits in any sort of danger is a bad cat. And it doesn’t matter that there was assurance, because he still believed the kits would suffer upon the truth coming out. By allowing the truth to come out he KNEW he was risking the safety of the kits. So no, again, ravenwing was unjustified and his reasoning is heavily flawed. Once again, Fireheart didn't wait for Tigerstar's kits to be apprentices, and they were verbally persecuted and one pressured out of the Clan. The kits' suffering isn't Ravenwing's fault, it's Mapleshade and Appledusk's for allowing their Half-clan status and Mapleshade for lying to them, allowing them to think their father is dead, when he's a alive and the one who killed their supposed first one. I’m not saying mapleshade was innocent. Tbh the only innocent characters in the book are the kits, reedshine, and perchpaw. However, ravenwing was certainly not innocent in that he admitted he knew suffering would happen, even admitting the guilt he felt knowing that his revealing of the truth would cause it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 14:53:02 GMT -5
Well, I think the truth comes above all. It's always the fault of the people who choose what to do with the information, never the snitch. That’s fairs and that’s your belief. I agree up to a certain point. If the truth will cause small harm but will be better in the end? Sure. If the truth causes three children to die and a murderspree to take place then nah, that truth is getting locked down. If the snitch knows that innocents will suffer greatly due to the truth, then they really shouldn’t say anything. Punish the sinner, sure, but keep the innocents safe. If you can’t keep them safe by outing the sinner, wait until a better time so that you can protect them, as was part of Ravenwing’s duty. He could have spoken up, and still he refused. If he was so hell bent on punishing mapleshade he could have told the truth but tried to convince oakstar to keep the kits. *That* would have been acceptable. Anyone who like police, social workers, laywers etc. have to do that all the time. Have to tell very difficult truths like saying a loved one died or is a criminal, which could very well destroy the families life or even endanger them, if someone tried taking violent revenge . However that's not the fault of the Policemen, Doctor, etc. especially since they have nothing to do with it, only the messager. It's the fault of the people reacting to the truth. Which Ravenwing is the equivalent of, a doctor/priest: reported their message from literal god, Telling the large family group a member is a traitor/danger, telling the grieving family they were tricked into raising the murderer's children and the children themselves discovering their father is alive and their mother lied to them.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 14:59:19 GMT -5
Mapleshade wasn’t a riverclan spy?? She wanted to mend the clan relationships. Granted, it was a stupid and convoluted way to go about it, but she didn’t have I’ll intent when her kits were alive. Once again, can you name *any* half clan kits that are not loyal to their birth clan, even knowing their heritage? How is Ravenwing meant to know Mapelshade wanted to "unit the Clans"? She carried on being loyal mate to the Riverclan cat who murdered two of Clanmates. Accidental or not, that clearly shows she values him more then her Clan. For Ravenwing knew; she could be leaking information to Riverclan, Trigger unnecessary battles and deaths by trespassing or even attack/kill a Clanmates herself. And that’s fine, I agree, but mapleshade was specifically kicked out for having kits. Her children were not criminals and did not deserve to be punished by they were anyway. Should we banish Bramblekit and Tawnykit because their father committed a crime? No, of course not. Was leafpool banished? No, she lost her position but got it back. Was covering banished? No, she chose to leave, but I doubt bramblestar would have banished her. Oakheart wasn’t banished despite his kits being have clan either. There is not one instance aside from mapleshade that we know of, where a clan cat was banished for an outer clan relationship. Hell, riverclan stole back willow and graypool in spite of the fact that they were half clan. You misunderstand my point. This isn't about the kits being Half-clan. Instead, i was talking about how a criminal having young children is never an exuse for them to get away scott-free or unexposed. Not in real life or in Warriors. Fireheart doesn't get any criticism for doing the exact same thing as Ravenwing: exposing a traitor with young kits. Only difference is, is luck. One got a good leader, the other didn't. It's not the reasonability of the accuser for the Judge's verdicts to be reasonable. Punishment is fine when it’s warranted. This punishment, especially with the kits facing the collateral damage, is not. Ravenwing knew it would be horrible, but he risked their lives for his pride/sense of duty anyway. He could have waited until the kits were older and apprenticed because at least then they’d be more ingratiated into thunderclan and seen as an asset. Instead he lets the equivalent of toddlers get kicked out of the only home they’ve ever known because their mom broke a rule. That’s still a crappy medicine cat. Any cat that knowingly and of clear mind who puts kits in any sort of danger is a bad cat. And it doesn’t matter that there was assurance, because he still believed the kits would suffer upon the truth coming out. By allowing the truth to come out he KNEW he was risking the safety of the kits. So no, again, ravenwing was unjustified and his reasoning is heavily flawed. Once again, Fireheart didn't wait for Tigerstar's kits to be apprentices, and they were verbally persecuted and one pressured out of the Clan. The kits' suffering isn't Ravenwing's fault, it's Mapleshade and Appledusk's for allowing their Half-clan status and Mapleshade for lying to them, allowing them to think their father is dead, when he's a alive and the one who killed their supposed first one. I’m not saying mapleshade was innocent. Tbh the only innocent characters in the book are the kits, reedshine, and perchpaw. However, ravenwing was certainly not innocent in that he admitted he knew suffering would happen, even admitting the guilt he felt knowing that his revealing of the truth would cause it. Alright, I truly feel like we’re just parroting the same points back at each other, but I’ll try to make a final point: 1. Ravenwing pretty much spied on Mapleshade while she was talking to Appledusk. During that conversation they (maple and apple) discuss wanting to fix thunder and river relations. When ravenwing discovers maple and the kits by the river, she tries to say that the kits will HELP thunderclan and riverclan relationships. And ravenwing refuses to budge or believe her, only seeing the halfclan relationship. 2. Yes, it is leader dependent. Ravenwing KNEW his leader would react horribly, yet he still snitched any way. Tigerstar MURDERED someone and then attempted to murder his LEADER. Of course he was exiled! Mapleshade just had kits! There’s a big difference! 3. The kits suffering is partially ravenwings fault because he snitched. The suffering is because of mapleshade, Appledusk, ravenwing, oakstar, and frecklewish. Ravenwing isn’t innocent. He knows the kits will be punished for a crime they have no control over, and he snitched anyway, thus is complicit and partially to blame for their death. If ravenwing has said nothing and their heritage never come to light, the kits would most like not be exiled and dead.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 15:01:46 GMT -5
That’s fairs and that’s your belief. I agree up to a certain point. If the truth will cause small harm but will be better in the end? Sure. If the truth causes three children to die and a murderspree to take place then nah, that truth is getting locked down. If the snitch knows that innocents will suffer greatly due to the truth, then they really shouldn’t say anything. Punish the sinner, sure, but keep the innocents safe. If you can’t keep them safe by outing the sinner, wait until a better time so that you can protect them, as was part of Ravenwing’s duty. He could have spoken up, and still he refused. If he was so hell bent on punishing mapleshade he could have told the truth but tried to convince oakstar to keep the kits. *That* would have been acceptable. Anyone who like police, social workers, laywers etc. have to do that all the time. Have to tell very difficult truths like saying a loved one died or is a criminal, which could very well destroy the families life or even endanger them, if someone tried taking violent revenge . However that's not the fault of the Policemen, Doctor, etc. especially since they have nothing to do with it, only the messager. It's the fault of the people reacting to the truth. Which Ravenwing is the equivalent of, a doctor/priest: reported their message from literal god, Telling the large family group a member is a traitor/danger, telling the grieving family they were tricked into raising the murderer's children and the children themselves discovering their father is alive and their mother lied to them. I am a social worker. If the truth would result in one of my clients life being put at risk, I’d keep my damn mouth shut. Your duty is to your CLIENT and their wellbeing, not your sense of duty. You can disagree with me there, but I’ve seen what happens when the truth comes out all the time. It’s not always good, and people can get hurt if not worse. Maybe that’s why I have a different opinion than you?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 15:07:21 GMT -5
Anyone who like police, social workers, laywers etc. have to do that all the time. Have to tell very difficult truths like saying a loved one died or is a criminal, which could very well destroy the families life or even endanger them, if someone tried taking violent revenge . However that's not the fault of the Policemen, Doctor, etc. especially since they have nothing to do with it, only the messager. It's the fault of the people reacting to the truth. Which Ravenwing is the equivalent of, a doctor/priest: reported their message from literal god, Telling the large family group a member is a traitor/danger, telling the grieving family they were tricked into raising the murderer's children and the children themselves discovering their father is alive and their mother lied to them. I am a social worker. If the truth would result in one of my clients life being put at risk, I’d keep my damn mouth shut. Your duty is to your CLIENT and their wellbeing, not your sense of duty. You can disagree with me there, but I’ve seen what happens when the truth comes out all the time. It’s not always good, and people can get hurt if not worse. Maybe that’s why I have a different opinion than you? But at the same time, if Ravenwing did keep his mouth shut, he'd be allowing a possibly dangerous traitor running around the Clan unexposed, who could worsen the war, leading to more attacks and more deaths. Including those of Elders, Apprentices and other Queens/Kits. And he'll be allowing the kits to think their father is dead, when he's actually alive. And allows a grieving family to believe they are raising their decreased's members children, when they are actually the murderer's instead. Again, I'll keep coming back to Fireheart. Honestly, I'm not an expert in this by any means, however, putting this in real life: Is would be the equivalent of a pregnant wife of a double murder, going to one of the grieving families and lying she's the mother of the murder victim's children. That has to be a crime in some regard. And if the authorities got whiff of this, it would probably be a legal requirement to notify the family. So whoever gets sent over, social worker, policemen etc. regardless of their personal beliefs, needs to tell the family by law. The wife and children are sent away from the Family home, as since they are not related by blood or marriage, the family don't have any legal custody or reasonability for the murderer's children. Then mother goes out and does something reckless, getting all the children killed in an accident. Is the Socal worker, Doctor etc. then convicted or blamed for the mother's actions? No. I think most people wouldn't.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 15:18:57 GMT -5
I am a social worker. If the truth would result in one of my clients life being put at risk, I’d keep my damn mouth shut. Your duty is to your CLIENT and their wellbeing, not your sense of duty. You can disagree with me there, but I’ve seen what happens when the truth comes out all the time. It’s not always good, and people can get hurt if not worse. Maybe that’s why I have a different opinion than you? But at the same time, if Ravenwing did keep his mouth shut, he'd be allowing a possibly dangerous traitor running around the Clan unexposed, who could worsen the war, leading to more attacks and more deaths. Including those of Elders, Apprentices and other Queens/Kits. And he'll be allowing the kits to think their father is dead, when he's actually alive. And allows a grieving family to believe they are raising their decreased's members children, when they are actually the murderer's instead. Again, I'll keep coming back to Fireheart. And again, he could have said nothing and everything could have been fine. It is a risk, but his action led to the deaths of 3 innocent children, two warriors, himself and a queen, not even including the rise of the Dark Forest and all the deaths there. I will reiterate—when you are in a field like social work, your duty is to do what is best for everyone. If your callous pride leads you to ratting out a client and it puts their children at risk, then you’re not doing your job right.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 15:29:21 GMT -5
But at the same time, if Ravenwing did keep his mouth shut, he'd be allowing a possibly dangerous traitor running around the Clan unexposed, who could worsen the war, leading to more attacks and more deaths. Including those of Elders, Apprentices and other Queens/Kits. And he'll be allowing the kits to think their father is dead, when he's actually alive. And allows a grieving family to believe they are raising their decreased's members children, when they are actually the murderer's instead. Again, I'll keep coming back to Fireheart. And again, he could have said nothing and everything could have been fine. It is a risk, but his action led to the deaths of 3 innocent children, two warriors, himself and a queen, not even including the rise of the Dark Forest and all the deaths there. I will reiterate—when you are in a field like social work, your duty is to do what is best for everyone. If your callous pride leads you to ratting out a client and it puts their children at risk, then you’re not doing your job right. Being an unforeseeable and very minor factor in the creation of a serial killer isn't a crime. Especially when their own self-inflicted crimes started the whole event. Also, I still stand by my point, it was Oakstar who choose to exile the kits and it was Mapleshade who decided to recklessly make her kits swim in a flood. That's ridiculously hard or impossible to foresee, to the point it's an impossible expectation of Ravenwing to somehow to know that would happen. Ravenwing didn't cause the kits' deaths, not even by a long shot.
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Post by gonxkillua on Nov 17, 2018 15:33:51 GMT -5
I am a social worker. If the truth would result in one of my clients life being put at risk, I’d keep my damn mouth shut. Your duty is to your CLIENT and their wellbeing, not your sense of duty. You can disagree with me there, but I’ve seen what happens when the truth comes out all the time. It’s not always good, and people can get hurt if not worse. Maybe that’s why I have a different opinion than you? But at the same time, if Ravenwing did keep his mouth shut, he'd be allowing a possibly dangerous traitor running around the Clan unexposed, who could worsen the war, leading to more attacks and more deaths. Including those of Elders, Apprentices and other Queens/Kits. And he'll be allowing the kits to think their father is dead, when he's actually alive. And allows a grieving family to believe they are raising their decreased's members children, when they are actually the murderer's instead. Again, I'll keep coming back to Fireheart. Your bringing up Fireheart but he didnt rat out Graystripe and Sliverstream despite his problems with the relationship and thats honstly a far more acurate compression then comparing MaplexApple crimes to Tigerstar's crimes. Tigerstar commited literal murder and was plaining to do so again. While Maple and Apple broke the code by failing and love while RC and TC were at confict which is excatly what Gray and Sliver did even down to Graystripe being blamed for the murderer of a Riverclan warrior. Mapleshade crimes before her kits die are not the equavent of Tigerstar's at all but the equal of Graystripe and honestly even if Gray wasnt Fire's best friend I dont see him ratting sombody out for this.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 15:44:41 GMT -5
But at the same time, if Ravenwing did keep his mouth shut, he'd be allowing a possibly dangerous traitor running around the Clan unexposed, who could worsen the war, leading to more attacks and more deaths. Including those of Elders, Apprentices and other Queens/Kits. And he'll be allowing the kits to think their father is dead, when he's actually alive. And allows a grieving family to believe they are raising their decreased's members children, when they are actually the murderer's instead. Again, I'll keep coming back to Fireheart. Your bringing up Fireheart but he didnt rat out Graystripe and Sliverstream despite his problems with the relationship and thats honstly a far more acurate compression then comparing MaplexApple crimes to Tigerstar's crimes. Tigerstar commited literal murder and was plaining to do so again. While Maple and Apple broke the code by failing and love while RC and TC were at confict which is excatly what Gray and Sliver did even down to Graystripe being blamed for the murderer of a Riverclan warrior. Mapleshade crimes before her kits die are not the equavent of Tigerstar's at all but the equal of Graystripe and honestly even if Gray wasnt Fire's best friend I dont see him ratting sombody out for this. Again, Ravenwing isn't the audience who has unlimited amount of knowledge about the series. Ravenwing wasn't just dealing with a forbidden romance. Like Tigerclaw, he was dealing with a murderer, Appledusk, who killed Birchface and Flowerpaw. Yes, we know it was an accident, but as far as any other characters know, it was purposeful. Mapleshade, though she may of not murdered herself yet, she was still loyal to her Clanmates' murderer and used his murder victim's name and grieving family. And that messed up and has some seriously alarming implications. It wouldn't be too much of stretch to assume Mapleshade may be willing to attack/murder a Clanmates herself in the future. Ravenwing himself saw Mapleshade had sneaked her kits to the Riverclan border and talking with Appledusk, while a Riverclan patrol also oversaw. That could of easily lead to a battle. Ravenwing didn't seem close enough to hear what they were talking about, so for all Ravenwing knew, she could of leaking information like Thunderclan's weaknesses or their next battles plans. Which, could of lead to Battles and deaths. It put the whole Clan at risk, including Elders, Apprentices and other Queens/Kits. I highly doubt would of Fireheart allowed Greystripe to carry on seeing Silverstream if she killed two Thunderclan cats. Fireheart was already having enough problems just with the Forbidden romance alone, constantly pressuring Greystripe away whenever he could and even though the prophecy about the "Enemy who seems to sleep", was about Greystripe.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 17, 2018 16:06:40 GMT -5
I can’t believe the “just following orders!” excuse is being touted un ironically. To follow the letter and not the spirit isn’t good.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 16:16:37 GMT -5
I can’t believe the “just following orders!” excuse is being touted un ironically. To follow the letter and not the spirit isn’t good. I know it just me being bumb, but what exactly are you talking about?
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 17, 2018 16:24:09 GMT -5
I can’t believe the “just following orders!” excuse is being touted un ironically. To follow the letter and not the spirit isn’t good. I know it just me being bumb, but what exactly are you talking about? “Just following orders” is an infamous deflection of blame by those who did bad things. There’s a wiki page if you want more
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 16:33:32 GMT -5
I know it just me being bumb, but what exactly are you talking about? “Just following orders” is an infamous deflection of blame by those who did bad things. There’s a wiki page if you want more But where is the excuse "Following orders" ever used in the thread? Ravenwing wasn't following orders, he was deciding whether to share information or not.
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Post by Viperstrike on Nov 17, 2018 16:45:28 GMT -5
“Just following orders” is an infamous deflection of blame by those who did bad things. There’s a wiki page if you want more But where is the excuse "Following orders" ever used in the thread? Ravenwing wasn't following orders, he was deciding whether to share information or not. You're using Leafpool's moral objections as a way to excuse Ravenwing's behavior by saying he was justified in telling on Mapleshade because he has no choice and was just following orders from StarClan.
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