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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 12:25:15 GMT -5
Also, you're thinking on far too large of a scale. Even if one single cat can only cause probably a handful of battles, it shouldn't be understated how much damage a single battle can do. Also just how much trouble Forbidden mates can cause: Many people say Willow Tail deserves the Dark Forest, for purposefully staging one single battle. If assuming Heatherpaw tell about the tunnels to specifically trigger a battle, like some fans like to assume: That would mean - Squirrelflight was almost fatally wounded and Lionpaw in his rage, almost killed 4 cats, Mosspelt, Crowfeather, Heatherpaw and unnamed Windclan warrior. Greystripe caused Thunderclan and Riverclan to threaten each other over the kits, which could of easily lead to battles. Also, while he was in Riverclan, Greystripe betrayed it by leaking information about Riverclan's battle plan, aiding in their defeat. Reedfeather caused a Riverclan patrol to raid Windclan's camp to get back the Half-clan kits. Reedfeather himself almost got drowned by Hailstar. Dovewing leaked the information of Jayfeather's secret herbs to Tigerheart - Which ended up Shadowclan kidnapping an apprentice. Oakheart almost got himself killed after he was caught trespassing by Thistleclaw for Bluefur. Could of easily lead to his death and future battles with Thunderclan. Literally anyone can cause anything in Warriors. They're a battle society where war is common. We've already seen cats start fights with one another over nothing. You can't punish someone over something that *might* happen. It isn't fair to use those examples seeing as how almost all of them are future events that Ravenwing or ThunderClan would have no reference to. But Mapleshade isn't being punished for something she might of done, but a crime she's already committed and continuing doing - Being forbidden romance. She had multiple times where she could of stopped and really should have, but did it anyway. After Appledusk killed two of her clanmates, something she's didn't know was accidental for a time, she still sneaked off to find him at the Gather. Not to break it off with him, but to carry showing physical affections to him and be loyal to him. When she had the kits, she could have stopped things from there. However, she took them to the Riverclan border and talked lovingly with Appledusk, possibly leading to a battle.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 22, 2018 14:07:27 GMT -5
Literally anyone can cause anything in Warriors. They're a battle society where war is common. We've already seen cats start fights with one another over nothing. You can't punish someone over something that *might* happen. It isn't fair to use those examples seeing as how almost all of them are future events that Ravenwing or ThunderClan would have no reference to. But Mapleshade isn't being punished for something she might of done, but a crime she's already committed and continuing doing - Being forbidden romance. She had multiple times where she could of stopped and really should have, but did it anyway. After Appledusk killed two of her clanmates, something she's didn't know was accidental for a time, she still sneaked off to find him at the Gather. Not to break it off with him, but to carry showing physical affections to him and be loyal to him. When she had the kits, she could have stopped things from there. However, she took them to the Riverclan border and talked lovingly with Appledusk, possibly leading to a battle. She was already pregnant by the time Appledusk accidentally cause their deaths. Not much she can do about it. Furthermore, are you seriously going to blame her for being in love and having hope that it may work out in the end? Yes, she broke the warrior code, but ravenwing did too when he spoke up and allowed the kits to be put in danger. Yes, oakstar is the final nail in the coffin for them, but ravenwing could have said absolutely nothing and been fine. And see? He accidentally caused the deaths...but was still blamed for it and called a murderer. You know who else inadvertently caused the death of three kits by opening his mouth? Ravenwing. You can’t call appledusk a murderer or even give him a slight correlation to the deaths without giving ravenwing at least a SLIGHT correlation to the three kits.
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Post by gonxkillua on Nov 22, 2018 16:00:29 GMT -5
But there is nothing to indicate that Ravenwing acually belived that Maapleshade would leak information to RC he never told her he thought she would do that and she explained she wanted the kits to untie the clans but grow up TC first to him. Him ratimg out Mapleshade and the kits becuse he thought she would leak info or keep trespassing is not hinted or supported by the narrative. He rattted just becuse of the omen and becuse he didnt want to cover for Maplshade that is all not becuse he thought anybody would get physically hurt. But he literally saw personally Mapleshade sneaking the kits to the Riverclan border and letting them play in the River, while a Riverclan patrol spotted them. That could of easily lead to a battle if Riverclan patrol took it the wrong way or if a Thunderclan patrol had seen it too. Anyway the reason you've provided are still perfectly valid in my option. He's a Medicine cat, got a omen and did his duty. Also, he has no personal investment in the whole sistuation, he's innocent bystander who unfairly got wrapped in it. He's shouldn't be expected to become a traitor/liar himself just to protect a traitor from their own crimes. Finally, what Mapleshade's lies were pretty disgusting, claiming to be her Mate's murder victim, actual and mother of his kits - Even allowing his grieving family to raise. Thunderclan definitely had a right to know that, including the kits themselves, as they thought their father was dead, when he was actually alive. Maplshade snuck the kits so they can play in the river one time. She was caught by both a Riverclan patrol and Ravenwing. I highly doubt that she when be stupid enought to do agaim after getting caught by both sides the first time. She would have to be exyreanltly dumb to risk it again just so the kits could play in the river more .There is also again nothing to suggest Ravenwing thought she was or was worried about her causingpl furture battles. As for how the omen and not wanting protect to Mapleshade fr tge conquenses of her actions your right he shouldn't want to but he should want to protect innoncent kits from them. Oakstar current unstableness was made clear by the book's narrative before the truth came out. He made public know that wanted to raise the kits to murder Appledusk which is against the warrior code showing that in his current state he did not have high valve for. Ravenwing could have waiting for the kits to grow older or try to connvine Mapleshade to take them to Riverclan becuse that was were they belong and tell Oakstar the truth after the kits were safe if he really thought the omen was so urgent. Thier were tons of ways to handle the situation better than he did. Im not trying to argue Ravenwing waa evil or deserved to die but he did make a big mistake.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 16:17:26 GMT -5
But Mapleshade isn't being punished for something she might of done, but a crime she's already committed and continuing doing - Being forbidden romance. She had multiple times where she could of stopped and really should have, but did it anyway. After Appledusk killed two of her clanmates, something she's didn't know was accidental for a time, she still sneaked off to find him at the Gather. Not to break it off with him, but to carry showing physical affections to him and be loyal to him. When she had the kits, she could have stopped things from there. However, she took them to the Riverclan border and talked lovingly with Appledusk, possibly leading to a battle. She was already pregnant by the time Appledusk accidentally cause their deaths. Not much she can do about it. Furthermore, are you seriously going to blame her for being in love and having hope that it may work out in the end? Yes, she broke the warrior code, but ravenwing did too when he spoke up and allowed the kits to be put in danger. Yes, oakstar is the final nail in the coffin for them, but ravenwing could have said absolutely nothing and been fine. And see? He accidentally caused the deaths...but was still blamed for it and called a murderer. You know who else inadvertently caused the death of three kits by opening his mouth? Ravenwing. You can’t call appledusk a murderer or even give him a slight correlation to the deaths without giving ravenwing at least a SLIGHT correlation to the three kits. I'm looking at this debate from Ravenwing's point of view. Along with the rest of Thunderclan, as far as he knew, Appledusk had shoved Birchface in one purpose. Also, even if it was accidental, Appledusk was directly reasonable for Birchface's death, since he's the one who hit him too hard and made Birchface fall off the edge. While in the Kits' cause, the blame is convoluted, no one can have the label of "murderer" besides the absolute worse of the worse. Ravenwing's involvement was so tiny, he's barely even worth mentioning and is unfairly singaled in a crime commited by the entire Clan. He's is no more deserving of the label "murderer", then Bloomheart, Rabbitfur, etc. Snitching isn't a crime and never will be one. Lying is however. Ravenwing isn't criminal and unfairly got caught up in one, expected to become himself to protect a criminal. Ravenwing is not responsible for the kits' deaths in the slightest. He got a omen from Starclan, did his job as a Medcine cat and he doesn't have the power to choose what happens after that. There's a phrase: Don't shoot the messenger. That all Ravenwing is. In real-world terms, he would an innocent bystander who reported a criminal with a family to a police, who's unknowingly corrupted. They shouldn't have to way about the family at all, considering many criminal have families and should be legally protected.Then later in a trial, when innocent civilization is watching the trial, he can't do anything, he has no legal power, he can only watch in silence. Then, due to the trial, criminal does something reckless to get all the children killed. Is the innocent bystander somehow responable. Abosouteoly not. Just like Ravenwing isn't. The logic you used to somehow consider Ravenwing "reasonable" for the kits death can literally be used for anyone: Rabbitfur was the one who testing the kits to see if they were like their "father", that lead to their Riverclan traits being exposed. His insults made Mapleshade leave camp and he reported it to Ravenwing. Is Rabbitfur reasonable for the kits death? Bloomheart didn't train his apprentice less enough, so she ended up in a forbidden romance and he openly agreed with their exile. Is Bloomheart reasonable for the kits' deaths? Nettlepaw didn't say anything at the trial and told Mapleshade about Frecklewish? He is reasonable for the kits' deaths and Frecklewish's murder? Are Mapleshade's parents reasonable for their grandkits death for having Mapleshade in the first place? See how far this logic can be taken?
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Post by streamflower on Nov 22, 2018 16:49:55 GMT -5
She was already pregnant by the time Appledusk accidentally cause their deaths. Not much she can do about it. Furthermore, are you seriously going to blame her for being in love and having hope that it may work out in the end? Yes, she broke the warrior code, but ravenwing did too when he spoke up and allowed the kits to be put in danger. Yes, oakstar is the final nail in the coffin for them, but ravenwing could have said absolutely nothing and been fine. And see? He accidentally caused the deaths...but was still blamed for it and called a murderer. You know who else inadvertently caused the death of three kits by opening his mouth? Ravenwing. You can’t call appledusk a murderer or even give him a slight correlation to the deaths without giving ravenwing at least a SLIGHT correlation to the three kits. I'm looking at this debate from Ravenwing's point of view. Along with the rest of Thunderclan, as far as he knew, Appledusk had shoved Birchface in one purpose. Also, even if it was accidental, Appledusk was directly reasonable for Birchface's death, since he's the one who hit him too hard and made Birchface fall off the edge. While in the Kits' cause, the blame is convoluted, no one can have the label of "murderer" besides the absolute worse of the worse. Ravenwing's involvement was so tiny, he's barely even worth mentioning and is unfairly singaled in a crime commited by the entire Clan. He's is no more deserving of the label "murderer", then Bloomheart, Rabbitfur, etc. Snitching isn't a crime and never will be one. Lying is however. Ravenwing isn't criminal and unfairly got caught up in one, expected to become himself to protect a criminal. Ravenwing is not responsible for the kits' deaths in the slightest. He got a omen from Starclan, did his job as a Medcine cat and he doesn't have the power to choose what happens after that. There's a phrase: Don't shoot the messenger. That all Ravenwing is. In real-world terms, he would an innocent bystander who reported a criminal with a family to a police, who's unknowingly corrupted. They shouldn't have to way about the family at all, considering many criminal have families and should be legally protected.Then later in a trial, when innocent civilization is watching the trial, he can't do anything, he has no legal power, he can only watch in silence. Then, due to the trial, criminal does something reckless to get all the children killed. Is the innocent bystander somehow responable. Abosouteoly not. Just like Ravenwing isn't. The logic you used to somehow consider Ravenwing "reasonable" for the kits death can literally be used for anyone: Rabbitfur was the one who testing the kits to see if they were like their "father", that lead to their Riverclan traits being exposed. His insults made Mapleshade leave camp and he reported it to Ravenwing. Is Rabbitfur reasonable for the kits death? Bloomheart didn't train his apprentice less enough, so she ended up in a forbidden romance and he openly agreed with their exile. Is Bloomheart reasonable for the kits' deaths? Nettlepaw didn't say anything at the trial and told Mapleshade about Frecklewish? He is reasonable for the kits' deaths and Frecklewish's murder? Are Mapleshade's parents reasonable for their grandkits death for having Mapleshade in the first place? See how far this logic can be taken? “Ravenwings involvement” You admit he was involved. Even if you admit a slight amount. So yes, he’s involved. You may see it from the point of Ravenwing—I’m seeing it from the point of a medicine cat. A medicine cat would not say anything that meant endangering the lives of innocent kits. They may ream them out, but for real—if we’re going by the word-of-mouth medicine cat code (because that’s all we have) a medicine cat ignores clan politics (in this case thunderclans relationship towards Appledusk at the time and the kits parentage) and will lay down their life to save a cat. You can say ravenwing was considering the rest of thunderclan—but those kits were still half thunderclan regardless. His actions caused the kits parentage to come to light, which in turn made oakstar exile them, which in turn killed them. It’s a chain of events and without one event happening a completely different outcome could have come forth. Rabbitfur was confused, yes, but he didn’t raise his concerns to oakstar, just to ravenwing. Ravenwing pieced it together with his omen (which for all we know could have just been to say ‘yo they are half clan just FYI’) and decided that, in spite of the fact that he knew the kits would suffer, and that they would suffer the MOST, he is partially responsible. I’m not blaming ravenwing for the entire thing—I’m blaming him for a part of it. Correlation does not equal causation, however his snitching correlates to the kits being exiled, which correlates to their death. Also since when is lying illegal?? If lying is illegal I’ll eat my hat. Snitching is as illegal as lying is. In the world of warriors having a half clan mate is against the code, but there is nothing saying lying is against the code. It’s just not a tenant. If you’re saying that ravenwing not telling oakstar is against the code, you’re ALSO wrong because there is no written medicine cat code. They may have to be able to interpret omens, but by that I guess cinderpelt broke the medicine cat code because she interpreted the Fire tiger omen wrong? I’m not saying mapleshade isn’t responsible. I’m not saying oakstar isn’t either. All I am saying is that Ravenwing is not free of blame. His actions correlate with the death of the kits. His telling oakstar correlates with the death of the kits. If he didn’t tell oakstar about his vision (which other than confirming rabbitfurs suspicions, we don’t know what else the omen was telling him to do since there were no words directly used) I don’t understand how that isn’t clear but I will once again just say we have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Basement Cat on Nov 22, 2018 16:50:08 GMT -5
Look, I'm gonna be honest. Neither side is going to budge, so just drop the subject.
It's Thanksgiving. Go take a break and forget about this topic.
I think that would be for the best.
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Post by Haze on Nov 22, 2018 17:05:21 GMT -5
To be honest I find the Mapleshade story so strange, even when the kits are half-clan the clans usually wants to keep them because it means more warriors later, and they even fight for the kits if necessary.
It was so dumb to banish her with the kittens because it would means that Thunderclan gave Riverclan 4 warriors for free if the accident didn't happen
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 17:14:49 GMT -5
I'm looking at this debate from Ravenwing's point of view. Along with the rest of Thunderclan, as far as he knew, Appledusk had shoved Birchface in one purpose. Also, even if it was accidental, Appledusk was directly reasonable for Birchface's death, since he's the one who hit him too hard and made Birchface fall off the edge. While in the Kits' cause, the blame is convoluted, no one can have the label of "murderer" besides the absolute worse of the worse. Ravenwing's involvement was so tiny, he's barely even worth mentioning and is unfairly singaled in a crime commited by the entire Clan. He's is no more deserving of the label "murderer", then Bloomheart, Rabbitfur, etc. Snitching isn't a crime and never will be one. Lying is however. Ravenwing isn't criminal and unfairly got caught up in one, expected to become himself to protect a criminal. Ravenwing is not responsible for the kits' deaths in the slightest. He got a omen from Starclan, did his job as a Medcine cat and he doesn't have the power to choose what happens after that. There's a phrase: Don't shoot the messenger. That all Ravenwing is. In real-world terms, he would an innocent bystander who reported a criminal with a family to a police, who's unknowingly corrupted. They shouldn't have to way about the family at all, considering many criminal have families and should be legally protected.Then later in a trial, when innocent civilization is watching the trial, he can't do anything, he has no legal power, he can only watch in silence. Then, due to the trial, criminal does something reckless to get all the children killed. Is the innocent bystander somehow responable. Abosouteoly not. Just like Ravenwing isn't. The logic you used to somehow consider Ravenwing "reasonable" for the kits death can literally be used for anyone: Rabbitfur was the one who testing the kits to see if they were like their "father", that lead to their Riverclan traits being exposed. His insults made Mapleshade leave camp and he reported it to Ravenwing. Is Rabbitfur reasonable for the kits death? Bloomheart didn't train his apprentice less enough, so she ended up in a forbidden romance and he openly agreed with their exile. Is Bloomheart reasonable for the kits' deaths? Nettlepaw didn't say anything at the trial and told Mapleshade about Frecklewish? He is reasonable for the kits' deaths and Frecklewish's murder? Are Mapleshade's parents reasonable for their grandkits death for having Mapleshade in the first place? See how far this logic can be taken? “Ravenwings involvement” You admit he was involved. Even if you admit a slight amount. So yes, he’s involved. You may see it from the point of Ravenwing—I’m seeing it from the point of a medicine cat. A medicine cat would not say anything that meant endangering the lives of innocent kits. They may ream them out, but for real—if we’re going by the word-of-mouth medicine cat code (because that’s all we have) a medicine cat ignores clan politics (in this case thunderclans relationship towards Appledusk at the time and the kits parentage) and will lay down their life to save a cat. You can say ravenwing was considering the rest of thunderclan—but those kits were still half thunderclan regardless. His actions caused the kits parentage to come to light, which in turn made oakstar exile them, which in turn killed them. It’s a chain of events and without one event happening a completely different outcome could have come forth. Rabbitfur was confused, yes, but he didn’t raise his concerns to oakstar, just to ravenwing. Ravenwing pieced it together with his omen (which for all we know could have just been to say ‘yo they are half clan just FYI’) and decided that, in spite of the fact that he knew the kits would suffer, and that they would suffer the MOST, he is partially responsible. I’m not blaming ravenwing for the entire thing—I’m blaming him for a part of it. Correlation does not equal causation, however his snitching correlates to the kits being exiled, which correlates to their death. Also since when is lying illegal?? If lying is illegal I’ll eat my hat. Snitching is as illegal as lying is. In the world of warriors having a half clan mate is against the code, but there is nothing saying lying is against the code. It’s just not a tenant. If you’re saying that ravenwing not telling oakstar is against the code, you’re ALSO wrong because there is no written medicine cat code. They may have to be able to interpret omens, but by that I guess cinderpelt broke the medicine cat code because she interpreted the Fire tiger omen wrong? I’m not saying mapleshade isn’t responsible. I’m not saying oakstar isn’t either. All I am saying is that Ravenwing is not free of blame. His actions correlate with the death of the kits. His telling oakstar correlates with the death of the kits. If he didn’t tell oakstar about his vision (which other than confirming rabbitfurs suspicions, we don’t know what else the omen was telling him to do since there were no words directly used) I don’t understand how that isn’t clear but I will once again just say we have to agree to disagree. That rule of the code saying not to put kits in endanger is actually a reason why it should be perfectly fine for Ravenwing to expose their mother. The kits are young and innocent, meaning they are legally protected. So he shouldn't need to worry about them or consider them in any danger. Therefore Ravenwing could safely assume the kits would be safe under any code-following Leader . Which how unlikely as it was, Oakstar wasn't out of the dozens of leader who are. It's the equivalent of someone not telling a police officer/judge a crime they just saw, out of the ridiculously small chance the policemen is corrupt enough to do a crime worse than the original criminal while punishing them.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 22, 2018 17:21:39 GMT -5
“Ravenwings involvement” You admit he was involved. Even if you admit a slight amount. So yes, he’s involved. You may see it from the point of Ravenwing—I’m seeing it from the point of a medicine cat. A medicine cat would not say anything that meant endangering the lives of innocent kits. They may ream them out, but for real—if we’re going by the word-of-mouth medicine cat code (because that’s all we have) a medicine cat ignores clan politics (in this case thunderclans relationship towards Appledusk at the time and the kits parentage) and will lay down their life to save a cat. You can say ravenwing was considering the rest of thunderclan—but those kits were still half thunderclan regardless. His actions caused the kits parentage to come to light, which in turn made oakstar exile them, which in turn killed them. It’s a chain of events and without one event happening a completely different outcome could have come forth. Rabbitfur was confused, yes, but he didn’t raise his concerns to oakstar, just to ravenwing. Ravenwing pieced it together with his omen (which for all we know could have just been to say ‘yo they are half clan just FYI’) and decided that, in spite of the fact that he knew the kits would suffer, and that they would suffer the MOST, he is partially responsible. I’m not blaming ravenwing for the entire thing—I’m blaming him for a part of it. Correlation does not equal causation, however his snitching correlates to the kits being exiled, which correlates to their death. Also since when is lying illegal?? If lying is illegal I’ll eat my hat. Snitching is as illegal as lying is. In the world of warriors having a half clan mate is against the code, but there is nothing saying lying is against the code. It’s just not a tenant. If you’re saying that ravenwing not telling oakstar is against the code, you’re ALSO wrong because there is no written medicine cat code. They may have to be able to interpret omens, but by that I guess cinderpelt broke the medicine cat code because she interpreted the Fire tiger omen wrong? I’m not saying mapleshade isn’t responsible. I’m not saying oakstar isn’t either. All I am saying is that Ravenwing is not free of blame. His actions correlate with the death of the kits. His telling oakstar correlates with the death of the kits. If he didn’t tell oakstar about his vision (which other than confirming rabbitfurs suspicions, we don’t know what else the omen was telling him to do since there were no words directly used) I don’t understand how that isn’t clear but I will once again just say we have to agree to disagree. That rule of the code saying not to put kits in endanger is actually a reason why it should be perfectly fine for Ravenwing to expose their mother. The kits are young and innocent, meaning they are legally protected. So he shouldn't need to worry about them or consider them in any danger. Therefore Ravenwing could safely assume the kits would fine under safe under any code-adding leader . Which how unlikely as it was, Oakstar wasn't out of the dozens of leader who are. Which means that the second the kits were exiled he should have spoken up. Which he didn’t. So he’s complicit. Granted, so is the rest of the clan but as the medicine cat he should have spoken up more to save them, and also not snitched to begin with about an omen he didn’t understand completely. And again, he mentioned that everyone would suffer, “most of all these kits.” So I don’t agree with you. Ravenwing. (To me) is wrong and is a snitch and a poor medicine cat who cares too much about clan politics and not enough about innocent lives. Here’s the time line Mapleshade has kits —> Mapleshade meets w Appledusk and kits —> ravenwing remembers what rabbitfur says and his supposed vision and follows them —> admits that the kits will suffer but says he’ll snitch anyway —> oakstar exiles them —> the kits die If we take out the snitching, there is almost 0 chance that the kits would be exiled and dead the way they were. However, I won’t convince you. You won’t convince be. I think Ravenwing is a bad medicine cat, and you think he was right. I put more value on protecting the kits than you do on the truth of the matter. It is what it is. Im done, bye.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 17:26:10 GMT -5
That rule of the code saying not to put kits in endanger is actually a reason why it should be perfectly fine for Ravenwing to expose their mother. The kits are young and innocent, meaning they are legally protected. So he shouldn't need to worry about them or consider them in any danger. Therefore Ravenwing could safely assume the kits would fine under safe under any code-adding leader . Which how unlikely as it was, Oakstar wasn't out of the dozens of leader who are. Which means that the second the kits were exiled he should have spoken up. Which he didn’t. So he’s complicit. Granted, so is the rest of the clan but as the medicine cat he should have spoken up more to save them, and also not snitched to begin with about an omen he didn’t understand completely. And again, he mentioned that everyone would suffer, “most of all these kits.” So I don’t agree with you. Ravenwing. (To me) is wrong and is a snitch and a poor medicine cat who cares too much about clan politics and not enough about innocent lives. Here’s the time line Mapleshade has kits —> Mapleshade meets w Appledusk and kits —> ravenwing remembers what rabbitfur says and his supposed vision and follows them —> admits that the kits will suffer but says he’ll snitch anyway —> oakstar exiles them —> the kits die If we take out the snitching, there is almost 0 chance that the kits would be exiled and dead the way they were. However, I won’t convince you. You won’t convince be. I think Ravenwing is a bad medicine cat, and you think he was right. I put more value on protecting the kits than you do on the truth of the matter. It is what it is. Im done, bye. But he says the kits is suffered because of Mapleshade's lies. Just like it hurt the three when they discovered they were lied to. It would make them to emotionally suffer to know their mother lied to them and father is actually alive, but the one who killed what they originally thought to be their dad.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 22, 2018 17:40:25 GMT -5
Which means that the second the kits were exiled he should have spoken up. Which he didn’t. So he’s complicit. Granted, so is the rest of the clan but as the medicine cat he should have spoken up more to save them, and also not snitched to begin with about an omen he didn’t understand completely. And again, he mentioned that everyone would suffer, “most of all these kits.” So I don’t agree with you. Ravenwing. (To me) is wrong and is a snitch and a poor medicine cat who cares too much about clan politics and not enough about innocent lives. Here’s the time line Mapleshade has kits —> Mapleshade meets w Appledusk and kits —> ravenwing remembers what rabbitfur says and his supposed vision and follows them —> admits that the kits will suffer but says he’ll snitch anyway —> oakstar exiles them —> the kits die If we take out the snitching, there is almost 0 chance that the kits would be exiled and dead the way they were. However, I won’t convince you. You won’t convince be. I think Ravenwing is a bad medicine cat, and you think he was right. I put more value on protecting the kits than you do on the truth of the matter. It is what it is. Im done, bye. But he says the kits is suffered because of Mapleshade's lies. Just like it hurt the three when they discovered they were lied to. It would make them to emotionally suffer to know their mother lied to them and father is actually alive, but the one who killed what they originally thought to be their dad. And how’d they’d probably also suffer due to Oakstar wrath. He doesn’t have to say it, it’s implied, just how you implied ravenwing is right by “duty.” He still snitched, they still died, ravenwings should have kept kept his mouth shut. His snitching correlates to the death of three innocents whether or not you agree. Taking his snitching out of the equation erases the timeline past that point and at the very least gives them a little more time. He’s flawed and wrong, as are mapleshade, frecklewish, oakstar, and Appledusk. I put value of their lives over his truth. You do not. That’s okay. We are allowed to disagree. Like I said before, I’m done. You won’t convince me, I won’t convince you. It is what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 17:57:09 GMT -5
But he says the kits is suffered because of Mapleshade's lies. Just like it hurt the three when they discovered they were lied to. It would make them to emotionally suffer to know their mother lied to them and father is actually alive, but the one who killed what they originally thought to be their dad. And how’d they’d probably also suffer due to Oakstar wrath. He doesn’t have to say it, it’s implied, just how you implied ravenwing is right by “duty.” He still snitched, they still died, ravenwings should have kept kept his mouth shut. His snitching correlates to the death of three innocents whether or not you agree. Taking his snitching out of the equation erases the timeline past that point and at the very least gives them a little more time. He’s flawed and wrong, as are mapleshade, frecklewish, oakstar, and Appledusk. I put value of their lives over his truth. You do not. That’s okay. We are allowed to disagree. Like I said before, I’m done. You won’t convince me, I won’t convince you. It is what it is. But you're also ignoring the fact that Ravenwing's snitching also helped expose a dangerous traitor, that could of put the whole Clan in danger by her encouraging more Riverclan attacks one way or the other. Ravenwing was helping to protect: Elders, Apprentices and yes, Other Queens/kits, including even Mapleshade herself and her kits. As long as Riverclan knew them as Birchface's family, they'd been just as big as targets as anyone during the battles Mapleshade could help cause.
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Post by whiteflight on Nov 22, 2018 18:08:29 GMT -5
And how’d they’d probably also suffer due to Oakstar wrath. He doesn’t have to say it, it’s implied, just how you implied ravenwing is right by “duty.” He still snitched, they still died, ravenwings should have kept kept his mouth shut. His snitching correlates to the death of three innocents whether or not you agree. Taking his snitching out of the equation erases the timeline past that point and at the very least gives them a little more time. He’s flawed and wrong, as are mapleshade, frecklewish, oakstar, and Appledusk. I put value of their lives over his truth. You do not. That’s okay. We are allowed to disagree. Like I said before, I’m done. You won’t convince me, I won’t convince you. It is what it is. But you're also ignoring the fact that Ravenwing's snitching also helped expose a dangerous traitor, that could of put the whole Clan in danger by her encouraging more Riverclan attacks one way or the other. Ravenwing was helping to protect: Elders, Apprentices and yes, Other Queens/kits, including even Mapleshade herself and her kits. As long as Riverclan knew them as Birchface's family, they'd been just as big as targets as anyone during the battles Mapleshade could help cause. You know you might as will stop trying to debate with Streamflower. She said it multiple times that you two should just agree to disagree. No one's changing each others mind at all, it's useless to keep debating with each other so you might as well stop replying to her at all since it's clear she doesn't want to debate anymore plus atm you two are just running around in circles since no ones changing anyone's opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 18:14:50 GMT -5
But you're also ignoring the fact that Ravenwing's snitching also helped expose a dangerous traitor, that could of put the whole Clan in danger by her encouraging more Riverclan attacks one way or the other. Ravenwing was helping to protect: Elders, Apprentices and yes, Other Queens/kits, including even Mapleshade herself and her kits. As long as Riverclan knew them as Birchface's family, they'd been just as big as targets as anyone during the battles Mapleshade could help cause. You know you might as will stop trying to debate with Streamflower. She said it multiple times that you two should just agree to disagree. No one's changing each others mind at all, it's useless to keep debating with each other so you might as well stop replying to her at all since it's clear she doesn't want to debate anymore plus atm you two are just running around in circles since no ones changing anyone's opinion. But even when I'm talking to someone else entirely, she still replies to that. She willingly chooses to reply to my answers even after she says had enough, so I sustain my right give counter-arguments to reply directly for me. If someone wants to stop a debate with me, they should only say along the lines of "I want to stop debating." and nothing else. Not give a pile of more arguments.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 22, 2018 18:49:00 GMT -5
You know you might as will stop trying to debate with Streamflower. She said it multiple times that you two should just agree to disagree. No one's changing each others mind at all, it's useless to keep debating with each other so you might as well stop replying to her at all since it's clear she doesn't want to debate anymore plus atm you two are just running around in circles since no ones changing anyone's opinion. But even when I'm talking to someone else entirely, she still replies to that. She willingly chooses to reply to my answers even after she says had enough, so I sustain my right give counter-arguments to reply directly for me. If someone wants to stop a debate with me, they should only say along the lines of "I want to stop debating." and nothing else. Not give a pile of more arguments. We obviously communicate in different ways. I thought I’d made it clear by saying “I think we should agree to disagree.” Regardless, I want to stop debating. We obviously disagree with each other and won’t change each other’s minds.
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