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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 16:55:53 GMT -5
But where is the excuse "Following orders" ever used in the thread? Ravenwing wasn't following orders, he was deciding whether to share information or not. You're using Leafpool's moral objections as a way to excuse Ravenwing's behavior by saying he was justified in telling on Mapleshade because he has no choice and was just following orders from StarClan. This is Starclan. Clan cats equivalent of all-knowing/wise Gods (That actually exist in lore) and they don't have the awareness necessary, especially in this time, to know Starclan is flawed like the audience does. And Medicine cats are taught their entire lives to be devoted to them.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 17:19:22 GMT -5
And again, he could have said nothing and everything could have been fine. It is a risk, but his action led to the deaths of 3 innocent children, two warriors, himself and a queen, not even including the rise of the Dark Forest and all the deaths there. I will reiterate—when you are in a field like social work, your duty is to do what is best for everyone. If your callous pride leads you to ratting out a client and it puts their children at risk, then you’re not doing your job right. Being an unforeseeable and very minor factor in the creation of a serial killer isn't a crime. Especially when their own self-inflicted crimes started the whole event. Also, I still stand by my point, it was Oakstar who choose to exile the kits and it was Mapleshade who decided to recklessly make her kits swim in a flood. That's ridiculously hard or impossible to foresee, to the point it's an impossible expectation of Ravenwing to somehow to know that would happen. Ravenwing didn't cause the kits' deaths, not even by a long shot. If you snitch about a petty crime and the result is the death of three children, then yes, you are partially the cause. Just like ravenwing couldn’t see how his pride would end up getting three children killed, he also couldn’t guarantee that anything bad would happen by him keeping quiet. Oakstar chose to exile the kits, but he wouldn’t have even had to make that choice if ravenwing had kept quiet. Mapleshade was forced to leave thunderclan under threat of death; it was cross the river to the only potential salvation she knew or die by the claws and teeth of her vengeful kin. Ravenwing did not exile them, correct—but he didn’t try to save them from their fate of exile, and he set the ball rolling upon telling oakstar about his vision. And once again, none of this would happen if ravenwing had simply kept quiet.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 17:22:08 GMT -5
You're using Leafpool's moral objections as a way to excuse Ravenwing's behavior by saying he was justified in telling on Mapleshade because he has no choice and was just following orders from StarClan. This is Starclan. Clan cats equivalent of all-knowing/wise Gods (That actually exist in lore) and they don't have the awareness necessary, especially in this time, to know Starclan is flawed like the audience does. And Medicine cats are taught their entire lives to be devoted to them. Yes but there are several times they are not. The cats have free will! They can choose to listen to or ignore starclan, and it’s their own interpretation of what to do. Ravenwings vision was simply that he saw theee reeds in thunderclan. Starclan didn’t say “HEY RAVENWING GO TELL OAKSTAR ABOUTTHE KITS.” He chose to interpret it that way. Whereas doestar literally told pinestar to kill tigerkit, starclan used no words and left it up to ravenwings interpretation and decision, and his interpretation led to the death of three innocents.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 17:37:25 GMT -5
Being an unforeseeable and very minor factor in the creation of a serial killer isn't a crime. Especially when their own self-inflicted crimes started the whole event. Also, I still stand by my point, it was Oakstar who choose to exile the kits and it was Mapleshade who decided to recklessly make her kits swim in a flood. That's ridiculously hard or impossible to foresee, to the point it's an impossible expectation of Ravenwing to somehow to know that would happen. Ravenwing didn't cause the kits' deaths, not even by a long shot. If you snitch about a petty crime and the result is the death of three children, then yes, you are partially the cause. Just like ravenwing couldn’t see how his pride would end up getting three children killed, he also couldn’t guarantee that anything bad would happen by him keeping quiet. Oakstar chose to exile the kits, but he wouldn’t have even had to make that choice if ravenwing had kept quiet. Mapleshade was forced to leave thunderclan under threat of death; it was cross the river to the only potential salvation she knew or die by the claws and teeth of her vengeful kin. Ravenwing did not exile them, correct—but he didn’t try to save them from their fate of exile, and he set the ball rolling upon telling oakstar about his vision. And once again, none of this would happen if ravenwing had simply kept quiet. Ingoring the fact: That was happened was extremely unlucky. So many other possibilities were possibly and so much more likely; Literally nothing happens, Oakstar decided to do nothing. Mapleshade and the kits are allowed to stay but kept a close eye on. Mapleshade is made to go on apprentice duties or something similar, which someone else raises the kits. Only Mapleshade is exiled, while the kits remained completely untouched and so many others. Ravenwing didn't lead to the kits' deaths.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 17, 2018 17:42:42 GMT -5
If you snitch about a petty crime and the result is the death of three children, then yes, you are partially the cause. Just like ravenwing couldn’t see how his pride would end up getting three children killed, he also couldn’t guarantee that anything bad would happen by him keeping quiet. Oakstar chose to exile the kits, but he wouldn’t have even had to make that choice if ravenwing had kept quiet. Mapleshade was forced to leave thunderclan under threat of death; it was cross the river to the only potential salvation she knew or die by the claws and teeth of her vengeful kin. Ravenwing did not exile them, correct—but he didn’t try to save them from their fate of exile, and he set the ball rolling upon telling oakstar about his vision. And once again, none of this would happen if ravenwing had simply kept quiet. Ingoring the fact: That was happened was extremely unlucky. So many other possibilities were possibly and so much more likely; Literally nothing happens, Oakstar decided to do nothing. Mapleshade and the kits are allowed to stay but kept a close eye on. Mapleshade is made to go on apprentice duties or something similar, which someone else raises the kits. Only Mapleshade is exiled, while the kits remained completely untouched and so many others. Ravenwing didn't lead to the kits' deaths. But that’s not true? It was incredibly likely that Oakstar would flip his lid and ravenwing knew it, hence the suffering comment? I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. I think Ravenwing was partially responsible and shouldn’t have said anything. You think Ravenwing was right in speaking up, and that his actions did not correlate to the death of the kits. It is what it is.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Nov 20, 2018 1:51:32 GMT -5
. They will end up suffering for the lies that you have told.'
Okay Ravenwing right here knows these INNOCENT BABIES will suffer if he tells them. And he doesnt wait tell theyre older and more understanding
Thats like refusing to take a family in during a freezing storm, theyll suffer/possibly die but because you know the mom did something bad you REFUSE TO TAKE EVEN THE CHILDREN IN
I hope hes in the dark forest ngl
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 20, 2018 1:55:11 GMT -5
At this point, I really don't care for any of this, if I'm being perfectly honest. The way I see it, Ravenwing made a mistake, but this doesn't necessarily make him a bad cat.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 20, 2018 2:07:33 GMT -5
. They will end up suffering for the lies that you have told.' Okay Ravenwing right here knows these INNOCENT BABIES will suffer if he tells them. And he doesnt wait tell theyre older and more understanding Thats like refusing to take a family in during a freezing storm, theyll suffer/possibly die but because you know the mom did something bad you REFUSE TO TAKE EVEN THE CHILDREN IN I hope hes in the dark forest ngl Ravenwing is saying that the kits will suffer because of Mapleshade's lies, and he's not entirely wrong, either, given the circumstances. Not only did Mapleshade have an affair with a RiverClan cat, but it was the same RiverClan cat who indirectly killed Birchface—who was a highly respected warrior and Oakstar's son—and Flowerpaw, and then she uses Birchface's name to cover up for who the father was. Looking at the scene, it seems like Ravenwing thought the lies would do more harm than good if it kept going any longer, and the dream he received clearly didn't help, either. And it's confirmed that he and Mapleshade's other victims are in StarClan, but why would he be in the Dark Forest anyway? He made a mistake, but it wasn't necessarily out of malicious intent. If you want to blame anyone, then blame Oakstar for being so harsh about it and letting his own hatred and grief cloud his better judgement.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Nov 20, 2018 2:26:27 GMT -5
. They will end up suffering for the lies that you have told.' Okay Ravenwing right here knows these INNOCENT BABIES will suffer if he tells them. And he doesnt wait tell theyre older and more understanding Thats like refusing to take a family in during a freezing storm, theyll suffer/possibly die but because you know the mom did something bad you REFUSE TO TAKE EVEN THE CHILDREN IN I hope hes in the dark forest ngl Ravenwing is saying that the kits will suffer because of Mapleshade's lies, and he's not entirely wrong, either, given the circumstances. Not only did Mapleshade have an affair with a RiverClan cat, but it was the same RiverClan cat who indirectly killed Birchface—who was a highly respected warrior and Oakstar's son— Flowerpaw, and then she uses Birchface's name to cover up for who the father was. Looking at the scene, it seems like Ravenwing thought the lies would do more harm than good if it kept going any longer, and the dream he received clearly didn't help, either. And it's confirmed that he and Mapleshade's other victims are in StarClan, but why would he be in the Dark Forest anyway? He made a mistake, but it wasn't necessarily out of malicious intent. If you want to blame anyone, then blame Oakstar for being so harsh about it and letting his own hatred and grief cloud his better judgement. yeah oakstar is the one, my bad Im tired and making rash words xD think ill call it a night
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Post by streamflower on Nov 21, 2018 3:25:37 GMT -5
. They will end up suffering for the lies that you have told.' Okay Ravenwing right here knows these INNOCENT BABIES will suffer if he tells them. And he doesnt wait tell theyre older and more understanding Thats like refusing to take a family in during a freezing storm, theyll suffer/possibly die but because you know the mom did something bad you REFUSE TO TAKE EVEN THE CHILDREN IN I hope hes in the dark forest ngl Ravenwing is saying that the kits will suffer because of Mapleshade's lies, and he's not entirely wrong, either, given the circumstances. Not only did Mapleshade have an affair with a RiverClan cat, but it was the same RiverClan cat who indirectly killed Birchface—who was a highly respected warrior and Oakstar's son—and Flowerpaw, and then she uses Birchface's name to cover up for who the father was. Looking at the scene, it seems like Ravenwing thought the lies would do more harm than good if it kept going any longer, and the dream he received clearly didn't help, either. And it's confirmed that he and Mapleshade's other victims are in StarClan, but why would he be in the Dark Forest anyway? He made a mistake, but it wasn't necessarily out of malicious intent. If you want to blame anyone, then blame Oakstar for being so harsh about it and letting his own hatred and grief cloud his better judgement. Okay but...Ashfur is also in Starclan. And he also wanted to expose a secret about three half-clan kits. Which he also knew would cause suffering. Specifically for the adopted mother, bio mother, father, and three kits. I just don’t think that saying “well he’s in starclan” is a good way to denote his “goodness.” I understand and definitely agree that blaming oakstar is on point. However, I think because of all of those facts you stated, and because ravenwing was going to snitch, is why he said they would suffer. If ravenwing said nothing then probably nothing would have come from it. I don’t necessarily think he’s “bad” but I don’t think he’s “good” and I do think he’s a jerk.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 21, 2018 3:48:42 GMT -5
Ravenwing is saying that the kits will suffer because of Mapleshade's lies, and he's not entirely wrong, either, given the circumstances. Not only did Mapleshade have an affair with a RiverClan cat, but it was the same RiverClan cat who indirectly killed Birchface—who was a highly respected warrior and Oakstar's son—and Flowerpaw, and then she uses Birchface's name to cover up for who the father was. Looking at the scene, it seems like Ravenwing thought the lies would do more harm than good if it kept going any longer, and the dream he received clearly didn't help, either. And it's confirmed that he and Mapleshade's other victims are in StarClan, but why would he be in the Dark Forest anyway? He made a mistake, but it wasn't necessarily out of malicious intent. If you want to blame anyone, then blame Oakstar for being so harsh about it and letting his own hatred and grief cloud his better judgement. Okay but...Ashfur is also in Starclan. And he also wanted to expose a secret about three half-clan kits. Which he also knew would cause suffering. Specifically for the adopted mother, bio mother, father, and three kits. I just don’t think that saying “well he’s in starclan” is a good way to denote his “goodness.” I understand and definitely agree that blaming oakstar is on point. However, I think because of all of those facts you stated, and because ravenwing was going to snitch, is why he said they would suffer. If ravenwing said nothing then probably nothing would have come from it. I don’t necessarily think he’s “bad” but I don’t think he’s “good” and I do think he’s a jerk. I see Ashfur more as an exception, not the rule. He was chosen pretty much at random to become Brambleclaw's rival for Squirrelflight's affection, and literally the only reason he even went to StarClan in the first place was because Vicky sympathized with him at the time. It's because of this I don't even take his case into consideration when it doesn't make any sense even in-universe, as even the characters themselves don't seem to completely understand why he's there. Not only that, but the circumstances are also completely different. Ravenwing told because he felt it was his duty as a loyal medicine cat to inform his leader what Mapleshade had done. The only cats who actually took her betrayal personally were Oakstar and Frecklewish. Ashfur on the other hand was actually a traitor who had previously tried to harm his own Clanmates many times out of his own personal grudge against Squirrelflight, just because she had rejected him a long time ago.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2018 3:52:15 GMT -5
Ravenwing is saying that the kits will suffer because of Mapleshade's lies, and he's not entirely wrong, either, given the circumstances. Not only did Mapleshade have an affair with a RiverClan cat, but it was the same RiverClan cat who indirectly killed Birchface—who was a highly respected warrior and Oakstar's son—and Flowerpaw, and then she uses Birchface's name to cover up for who the father was. Looking at the scene, it seems like Ravenwing thought the lies would do more harm than good if it kept going any longer, and the dream he received clearly didn't help, either. And it's confirmed that he and Mapleshade's other victims are in StarClan, but why would he be in the Dark Forest anyway? He made a mistake, but it wasn't necessarily out of malicious intent. If you want to blame anyone, then blame Oakstar for being so harsh about it and letting his own hatred and grief cloud his better judgement. Okay but...Ashfur is also in Starclan. And he also wanted to expose a secret about three half-clan kits. Which he also knew would cause suffering. Specifically for the adopted mother, bio mother, father, and three kits. I just don’t think that saying “well he’s in starclan” is a good way to denote his “goodness.” I understand and definitely agree that blaming oakstar is on point. However, I think because of all of those facts you stated, and because ravenwing was going to snitch, is why he said they would suffer. If ravenwing said nothing then probably nothing would have come from it. I don’t necessarily think he’s “bad” but I don’t think he’s “good” and I do think he’s a jerk. How are Ashfur and Ravenwing comparable in the slightest? The only reason Ashfur gained the knowledge in the first place is that he tried killing 3 clanmates. He was planning on telling his secret at the Gathering despite being warned 4 times not to do it, of which 3/4s of the cats there had nothing to do with it. It would also put the Whole Clan in danger by making them appear weak just after a large battle. It was also Ashfur's solely motived by the suffering it would case for personal satisfaction, with complete disregard it of the whole Clan. Even fully intending Squirrelflight to get exiled. And on top of that, Ashfur is a traitor and mass murderer. While Ravenwing is a young Medicine cat who received an omen from Starclan itself, which he reported to his Leader - He's literal job and duty. He only told those who's business it was. And he was only trying to do the right thing for the greater good, not some personal gain. ThunderClan had a right to know and he even sympathetic towards the traitor. Also, Ravenwing's secret is far more serious then Ashfur's, considering Mapleshade had loyalty towards the Riverclan murderer who killed two of their Clanmates. Mapleshade was a danger to the whole Clan. While in Ashfur's case, the liar and kits were already fully grown and hadn't proven to be a threat. If Ashfur had been some innocent clanmate who accidentally discovered the secret and told Firestar about it, I would've of blamed him at all, just like I don't blame Ravenwing.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 21, 2018 16:23:48 GMT -5
Okay but...Ashfur is also in Starclan. And he also wanted to expose a secret about three half-clan kits. Which he also knew would cause suffering. Specifically for the adopted mother, bio mother, father, and three kits. I just don’t think that saying “well he’s in starclan” is a good way to denote his “goodness.” I understand and definitely agree that blaming oakstar is on point. However, I think because of all of those facts you stated, and because ravenwing was going to snitch, is why he said they would suffer. If ravenwing said nothing then probably nothing would have come from it. I don’t necessarily think he’s “bad” but I don’t think he’s “good” and I do think he’s a jerk. How are Ashfur and Ravenwing comparable in the slightest? The only reason Ashfur gained the knowledge in the first place is that he tried killing 3 clanmates. He was planning on telling his secret at the Gathering despite being warned 4 times not to do it, of which 3/4s of the cats there had nothing to do with it. It would also put the Whole Clan in danger by making them appear weak just after a large battle. It was also Ashfur's solely motived by the suffering it would case for personal satisfaction, with complete disregard it of the whole Clan. Even fully intending Squirrelflight to get exiled. And on top of that, Ashfur is a traitor and mass murderer. While Ravenwing is a young Medicine cat who received an omen from Starclan itself, which he reported to his Leader - He's literal job and duty. He only told those who's business it was. And he was only trying to do the right thing for the greater good, not some personal gain. ThunderClan had a right to know and he even sympathetic towards the traitor. Also, Ravenwing's secret is far more serious then Ashfur's, considering Mapleshade had loyalty towards the Riverclan murderer who killed two of their Clanmates. Mapleshade was a danger to the whole Clan. While in Ashfur's case, the liar and kits were already fully grown and hadn't proven to be a threat. If Ashfur had been some innocent clanmate who accidentally discovered the secret and told Firestar about it, I would've of blamed him at all, just like I don't blame Ravenwing. Well they’re similar in situation because they’re both revealing a secret about three half clan kits, they know the kits will suffer, and that the parents will suffer, tbut they do it anyway. Also, if you could show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to the clan leader I’d love to see it. I don’t doubt that ravenwing was doing it out of his prideful sense of duty—I just think he’s wrong for doing it. Nowhere in the code does it state that a medicine cat MUST relay all omens to their leader; there’s a part of the code that says kits must be protected at all costs. Ravenwing knows he will be putting the kits in further danger by revealing the secret but he does it anyway. For that reason, I think he’s wrong. Do I think he deserves the Dark Forest? Not really. Do I think he deserves to be absolved of wrong-doing and absolved of any blame for the kits death? No.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 21, 2018 16:25:59 GMT -5
How are Ashfur and Ravenwing comparable in the slightest? The only reason Ashfur gained the knowledge in the first place is that he tried killing 3 clanmates. He was planning on telling his secret at the Gathering despite being warned 4 times not to do it, of which 3/4s of the cats there had nothing to do with it. It would also put the Whole Clan in danger by making them appear weak just after a large battle. It was also Ashfur's solely motived by the suffering it would case for personal satisfaction, with complete disregard it of the whole Clan. Even fully intending Squirrelflight to get exiled. And on top of that, Ashfur is a traitor and mass murderer. While Ravenwing is a young Medicine cat who received an omen from Starclan itself, which he reported to his Leader - He's literal job and duty. He only told those who's business it was. And he was only trying to do the right thing for the greater good, not some personal gain. ThunderClan had a right to know and he even sympathetic towards the traitor. Also, Ravenwing's secret is far more serious then Ashfur's, considering Mapleshade had loyalty towards the Riverclan murderer who killed two of their Clanmates. Mapleshade was a danger to the whole Clan. While in Ashfur's case, the liar and kits were already fully grown and hadn't proven to be a threat. If Ashfur had been some innocent clanmate who accidentally discovered the secret and told Firestar about it, I would've of blamed him at all, just like I don't blame Ravenwing. Well they’re similar in situation because they’re both revealing a secret about three half clan kits, they know the kits will suffer, and that the parents will suffer, tbut they do it anyway. Also, if you could show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to the clan leader I’d love to see it. I don’t doubt that ravenwing was doing it out of his prideful sense of duty—I just think he’s wrong for doing it. Nowhere in the code does it state that a medicine cat MUST relay all omens to their leader; there’s a part of the code that says kits must be protected at all costs. Ravenwing knows he will be putting the kits in further danger by revealing the secret but he does it anyway. For that reason, I think he’s wrong. Do I think he deserves the Dark Forest? Not really. Do I think he deserves to be absolved of wrong-doing and absolved of any blame for the kits death? No. Once again, if any cat knowingly puts kits in danger then they’re breaking the code. You can argue that ravenwing didn’t know, but once again, the suffering comment is up to interpretation. Also, Firestar is far less likely to kick literal toddlers out of a clan, but I still doubt that any warrior would just up and rat a clan mate out like that. If you can give me an example of this happening before, please let me know.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2018 16:29:36 GMT -5
How are Ashfur and Ravenwing comparable in the slightest? The only reason Ashfur gained the knowledge in the first place is that he tried killing 3 clanmates. He was planning on telling his secret at the Gathering despite being warned 4 times not to do it, of which 3/4s of the cats there had nothing to do with it. It would also put the Whole Clan in danger by making them appear weak just after a large battle. It was also Ashfur's solely motived by the suffering it would case for personal satisfaction, with complete disregard it of the whole Clan. Even fully intending Squirrelflight to get exiled. And on top of that, Ashfur is a traitor and mass murderer. While Ravenwing is a young Medicine cat who received an omen from Starclan itself, which he reported to his Leader - He's literal job and duty. He only told those who's business it was. And he was only trying to do the right thing for the greater good, not some personal gain. ThunderClan had a right to know and he even sympathetic towards the traitor. Also, Ravenwing's secret is far more serious then Ashfur's, considering Mapleshade had loyalty towards the Riverclan murderer who killed two of their Clanmates. Mapleshade was a danger to the whole Clan. While in Ashfur's case, the liar and kits were already fully grown and hadn't proven to be a threat. If Ashfur had been some innocent clanmate who accidentally discovered the secret and told Firestar about it, I would've of blamed him at all, just like I don't blame Ravenwing. Well they’re similar in situation because they’re both revealing a secret about three half clan kits, they know the kits will suffer, and that the parents will suffer, tbut they do it anyway. Also, if you could show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to the clan leader I’d love to see it. I don’t doubt that ravenwing was doing it out of his prideful sense of duty—I just think he’s wrong for doing it. Nowhere in the code does it state that a medicine cat MUST relay all omens to their leader; there’s a part of the code that says kits must be protected at all costs. Ravenwing knows he will be putting the kits in further danger by revealing the secret but he does it anyway. For that reason, I think he’s wrong. Do I think he deserves the Dark Forest? Not really. Do I think he deserves to be absolved of wrong-doing and absolved of any blame for the kits death? No. What about other kits and Queens then? Future generations that could be indanger because Ravenwing allowed a dangerous traitor: who's loyal to the Riverclan murderer of two of her clanmates, used the name of a victim and their grieving family. That has some serious implications, Mapleshade would cause unnecessary battles and deaths by either leaking information or by constantly trespassing?
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Post by streamflower on Nov 21, 2018 16:54:47 GMT -5
Well they’re similar in situation because they’re both revealing a secret about three half clan kits, they know the kits will suffer, and that the parents will suffer, tbut they do it anyway. Also, if you could show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to the clan leader I’d love to see it. I don’t doubt that ravenwing was doing it out of his prideful sense of duty—I just think he’s wrong for doing it. Nowhere in the code does it state that a medicine cat MUST relay all omens to their leader; there’s a part of the code that says kits must be protected at all costs. Ravenwing knows he will be putting the kits in further danger by revealing the secret but he does it anyway. For that reason, I think he’s wrong. Do I think he deserves the Dark Forest? Not really. Do I think he deserves to be absolved of wrong-doing and absolved of any blame for the kits death? No. What about other kits and Queens then? Future generations that could be indanger because Ravenwing allowed a dangerous traitor: who's loyal to the Riverclan murderer of two of her clanmates, used the name of a victim and their grieving family. That has some serious implications, Mapleshade would cause unnecessary battles and deaths by either leaking information or by constantly trespassing? So was thunderclan in danger from Lion, Jay, and Holly? Was riverclan in danger from feather and Storm? In fact, if you remember correctly, it was Tigerstar I’s logic youre stating that got Stonefur killed. That the kits and/or parents would be more loyal to the other clan, that is. The kits and queens were safe from kits. I guess Crookedstar let a dangerous traitor stay in his clan? And Firestar let a dangerous traitor stay in his clan? I get what you’re saying. I’m just saying that there’s no basis in it with any of the current books we have. The only issue we had was when a queen and her kits were exiled and died, never when they were allowed to stay. Once again, show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to your leader. Because last time I checked, it doesn’t. In fact it tells medicine cats to avoid the issue of clan politics and affairs in favor of the cats they are supposed to take care of—in this case, innocent kits. Ravenwing fails his duty in that sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2018 17:10:21 GMT -5
What about other kits and Queens then? Future generations that could be indanger because Ravenwing allowed a dangerous traitor: who's loyal to the Riverclan murderer of two of her clanmates, used the name of a victim and their grieving family. That has some serious implications, Mapleshade would cause unnecessary battles and deaths by either leaking information or by constantly trespassing? So was thunderclan in danger from Lion, Jay, and Holly? Was riverclan in danger from feather and Storm? In fact, if you remember correctly, it was Tigerstar I’s logic youre stating that got Stonefur killed. That the kits and/or parents would be more loyal to the other clan, that is. The kits and queens were safe from kits. I guess Crookedstar let a dangerous traitor stay in his clan? And Firestar let a dangerous traitor stay in his clan? Read the comment more carefully. Mapleshade. I'm talking Mapleshade, not the kits. Greystripe and Oakheart weren't connected to Murderers. And considering Mapleshade later went on a murderous rampage, it's clear she's capable of being dangerous.
I get what you’re saying. I’m just saying that there’s no basis in it with any of the current books we have. The only issue we had was when a queen and her kits were exiled and died, never when they were allowed to stay. Once again, show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to your leader. Because last time I checked, it doesn’t. In fact it tells medicine cats to avoid the issue of clan politics and affairs in favor of the cats they are supposed to take care of—in this case, innocent kits. Ravenwing fails his duty in that sense. Anyway: Rule 7 of Medicine cat code: A medicine cats must be able to interpret signs from Starclan. Even if it doesn't say who specifically report it, it's clear omens must be told to someone else in one way or the other, in order for action to be taken. They are warnings. Otherwise, Starclan wouldn't bother sending them in the first place if the Medicine cat wasn't meant to anything with it. And Clans Leaders are the highest ranking cats in the Clan who has the power to deal with threats most effectively and the main source of law enforcement, who received Nine Lives from Starclan themselves. A Medicine cat telling their Leader of the omen first is the most obvious and sensible choice. Especially, when Ravenwing hasn't got a mentor and is a young, who's leader is lot more experienced. Really- Who else would it be?
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Post by streamflower on Nov 21, 2018 17:30:55 GMT -5
So was thunderclan in danger from Lion, Jay, and Holly? Was riverclan in danger from feather and Storm? In fact, if you remember correctly, it was Tigerstar I’s logic youre stating that got Stonefur killed. That the kits and/or parents would be more loyal to the other clan, that is. The kits and queens were safe from kits. I guess Crookedstar let a dangerous traitor stay in his clan? And Firestar let a dangerous traitor stay in his clan? Read the comment more carefully. Mapleshade. I'm talking Mapleshade, not the kits. Greystripe and Oakheart weren't connected to Murderers. And considering Mapleshade later went on a murderous rampage, it's clear she's capable of being dangerous.
I get what you’re saying. I’m just saying that there’s no basis in it with any of the current books we have. The only issue we had was when a queen and her kits were exiled and died, never when they were allowed to stay. Once again, show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to your leader. Because last time I checked, it doesn’t. In fact it tells medicine cats to avoid the issue of clan politics and affairs in favor of the cats they are supposed to take care of—in this case, innocent kits. Ravenwing fails his duty in that sense. Anyway: Rule 7 of Medicine cat code: A medicine cats must be able to interpret signs from Starclan. Even if it doesn't say who specifically report it, it's clear omens must be told to someone else in one way or the other, in order for action to be taken. They are warnings. Otherwise, Starclan wouldn't bother sending them in the first place if the Medicine cat wasn't meant to anything with it. And Clans Leaders are the highest ranking cats in the Clan who has the power to deal with threats most effectively and the main source of law enforcement, who received Nine Lives from Starclan themselves. A Medicine cat telling their Leader of the omen first is the most obvious and sensible choice. Especially, when Ravenwing hasn't got a mentor and is a young, who's leader is lot more experienced. Really- Who else would it be? It’s clear that Appledusk didn’t purposefully kill them. It’s stated multiple times that it was an accident. Furthermore, there was absolutely no evidence that mapleshade would become a murderer. By that token bramblekit and tawnykit should have been exiled. Any cat with a mate who is a murderer should have their kits exiled, by that logic. There is absolutely nothing that states mapleshade would go nuts the way she did. At least it was a good chance that oakstar would go nuts—there’s nothing saying that mapleshade would. And yes, they are supposed to interpret omens. Not report them. They’re supposed to understand and interpret them. They’re also supposed to protect their clanmates—all clanmates, even half clan ones. Ravenwing even admits that he didn’t fully understand the omen! And we’ve seen how many times omens being interpreted incorrectly screw over cats. Look. I get your point of view. But I just don’t agree with it. Just like you don’t agree with mine. I know I commented to make the ashfur comment, but we’ve gone back to running around in circles. I think Ravenwing is *partially* at fault and ignored his medicine cat duty by endangering kits. You don’t see it that way and in fact you see the opposite. That’s fine. But just like I can’t convince you with my logic, you can’t convince me with yours. It is what it is. I don’t think Ravenwing should be in the Dark Forest, but he knew his job and he only chose to do one part of it (interpreting omens) while refusing to do another (protecting all clanmates and ignoring clan politics); for that reason and more, I dislike him and do partially blame him for what happened. That’s all.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2018 18:18:35 GMT -5
Anyway: Rule 7 of Medicine cat code: A medicine cats must be able to interpret signs from Starclan. Even if it doesn't say who specifically report it, it's clear omens must be told to someone else in one way or the other, in order for action to be taken. They are warnings. Otherwise, Starclan wouldn't bother sending them in the first place if the Medicine cat wasn't meant to anything with it. And Clans Leaders are the highest ranking cats in the Clan who has the power to deal with threats most effectively and the main source of law enforcement, who received Nine Lives from Starclan themselves. A Medicine cat telling their Leader of the omen first is the most obvious and sensible choice. Especially, when Ravenwing hasn't got a mentor and is a young, who's leader is lot more experienced. Really- Who else would it be? It’s clear that Appledusk didn’t purposefully kill them. It’s stated multiple times that it was an accident. Ravenwing isn't the auidence who has God-like view of the Warriors world. He only knows what the rest of Thunderclan does, who think Appledusk killed on purpose. Appledusk is an enemy warrior trying to steal territory, he'd have much to gain if it on purpose. Even Appledusk's own clanmates seemed to think it was purposeful, intimidating and threatening Mapleshade about it at the Gathering, saying they'd already killed Birchface and Flowerpaw, and they'd do it again for Sunningrocks. When he stated it was an accident, that during a private conversation with Mapleshade, with no else around. Furthermore, there was absolutely no evidence that mapleshade would become a murderer. By that token bramblekit and tawnykit should have been exiled. Any cat with a mate who is a murderer should have their kits exiled, by that logic. There is absolutely nothing that states mapleshade would go nuts the way she did. At least it was a good chance that oakstar would go nuts—there’s nothing saying that mapleshade would. Please- Can you stop jumping to such wild conclusions based on underdevelopment statements. Kits don't control who their parents are, so they are completely innocent of that. FULLY GROWN MATES on the other hand, do choose. Loyalty to a murderer, to a very suspicious sign that cats themselves could turn out to be one themselves, just like Darkstripe and Hawkfrost with Tigerclaw or many of Brokenstar's followers. It would be as if Goldenflower continued being loyal to Tigerclaw after he was banished. Appledusk killed two of Clanmates, yet Mapleshade didn't care, she continued to sneak off to see him and physical/lovingly affection with him. Including taking her kits to the Riverclan border, not only putting the kits at risk but also could of started a battle, it was only luck the Riverclan patrol was merciful and only a Medicine cat saw it. And yes, they are supposed to interpret omens. Not report them. They’re supposed to understand and interpret them. They’re also supposed to protect their clanmates—all clanmates, even half clan ones. Ravenwing even admits that he didn’t fully understand the omen! And we’ve seen how many times omens being interpreted incorrectly screw over cats. You can't "interpret" an Omen incorrectly. Look up the word interpret. Also the images Starclan provided Medicine cats are so vauge, no one should be blamed for not getting their stupidly specific meaning. If Starclan didn't want the Medicine cat reporting the omen, they would of never sent it in the first place.
Medicine cats are given Signs for a reason. Hardly ever, does the Sign personally about the Medicine cat themselves, it's always about someone else that needs to be notified about it. Omens need to be reported to someone else one way or the other, in order for it's meaning to be fulfilled. A Medicine cat trying to tackle the danger an Omen warned them about, without telling anyone, would just be foolish and unresponsible. Medicine cats ain't equipped to deal with situations, they have neither the fighting skills or authority to make decisions. That's why Medicine cats are Messages and nothing else. Someone else, usally of those power in Leaders and Deputies, must be told, so the Omen's warning can be acted on.
Also about Ravenwing "protecting his Clanmates: That's right- Medicine cats are meant to protect as many Clanmates as possible. Apart from the fact, it's literally impossible to protect everyone in this situation. So it either: Protect 4 cats, one of which is a traitor and 3 should be assumed to be legally safe because they are innocent/kits - Over literally Everyone else - 20+ of members Thunderclan, including Elders, Apprentice and other Queens/Kits. Or expose a traitor so they get rightfully punished for their own crime, Everyone learns a hard truth but ultimately one they needed to know and run a tiny risk with the kits somehow being offically punished, which shouln't be a risk at all, considering they should be protected by the code, so Ravenwing shouldn't need to worry about that.
20+ members including Elders, apprentice and other Queens/kits or 1 traitor/3 kits of should be legally safe. The choose is obvious to me. Look. I get your point of view. But I just don’t agree with it. Just like you don’t agree with mine. I know I commented to make the ashfur comment, but we’ve gone back to running around in circles. I think Ravenwing is *partially* at fault and ignored his medicine cat duty by endangering kits. You don’t see it that way and in fact you see the opposite. That’s fine. But just like I can’t convince you with my logic, you can’t convince me with yours. It is what it is. I don’t think Ravenwing should be in the Dark Forest, but he knew his job and he only chose to do one part of it (interpreting omens) while refusing to do another (protecting all clanmates and ignoring clan politics); for that reason and more, I dislike him and do partially blame him for what happened. That’s all.
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Post by Viperstrike on Nov 21, 2018 18:39:43 GMT -5
Why are you assuming that if Ravenwing hadn't of spoken up, the entire Clan would be in danger? You are jumping to conclusions and coming up with scenarios that didn't happen to justify your argument. There is no proof the entirety of ThunderClan would be in danger if Ravenwing had kept quiet. ThunderClan and RiverClan were already at war with one another before these kits were even born, and continued to be at war with one another until the Clans moved to the lake, even beyond that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2018 18:44:56 GMT -5
Why are you assuming that if Ravenwing hadn't of spoken up, the entire Clan would be in danger? You are jumping to conclusions and coming up with scenarios that didn't happen to justify your argument. There is no proof the entirety of ThunderClan would be in danger if Ravenwing had kept quiet. ThunderClan and RiverClan were already at war with one another before these kits were even born, and continued to be at war with one another until the Clans moved to the lake, even beyond that. Mapleshade had already been trespassing on Riverclan territory within the book, a Riverclan patrol actually spotting them. Even if it was just a handful of extra battles Mapleshade caused by her trespassing/information leaking (As far as Ravenwing knows), that's still a massive threat for one cat to have. Two Thunderclan cats were already dead and a Riverclan warrior at the Gathering threatened they'd been willing to kill anymore. Warriors would of died, if there were more excuses for battles, which is exactly what Mapleshade was giving them.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 21, 2018 19:23:09 GMT -5
It’s clear that Appledusk didn’t purposefully kill them. It’s stated multiple times that it was an accident. Ravenwing isn't the auidence who has God-like view of the Warriors world. He only knows what the rest of Thunderclan does, who think Appledusk killed on purpose. Appledusk is an enemy warrior trying to steal territory, he'd have much to gain if it on purpose. Even Appledusk's own clanmates seemed to think it was purposeful, intimidating and threatening Mapleshade about it at the Gathering, saying they'd already killed Birchface and Flowerpaw, and they'd do it again for Sunningrocks. When he stated it was an accident, that during a private conversation with Mapleshade, with no else around. Furthermore, there was absolutely no evidence that mapleshade would become a murderer. By that token bramblekit and tawnykit should have been exiled. Any cat with a mate who is a murderer should have their kits exiled, by that logic. There is absolutely nothing that states mapleshade would go nuts the way she did. At least it was a good chance that oakstar would go nuts—there’s nothing saying that mapleshade would. Please- Can you stop jumping to such wild conclusions based on underdevelopment statements. Kits don't control who their parents are, so they are completely innocent of that. FULLY GROWN MATES on the other hand, do choose. Loyalty to a murderer, to a very suspicious sign that cats themselves could turn out to be one themselves, just like Darkstripe and Hawkfrost with Tigerclaw or many of Brokenstar's followers. It would be as if Goldenflower continued being loyal to Tigerclaw after he was banished. Appledusk killed two of Clanmates, yet Mapleshade didn't care, she continued to sneak off to see him and physical/lovingly affection with him. Including taking her kits to the Riverclan border, not only putting the kits at risk but also could of started a battle, it was only luck the Riverclan patrol was merciful and only a Medicine cat saw it. And yes, they are supposed to interpret omens. Not report them. They’re supposed to understand and interpret them. They’re also supposed to protect their clanmates—all clanmates, even half clan ones. Ravenwing even admits that he didn’t fully understand the omen! And we’ve seen how many times omens being interpreted incorrectly screw over cats. You can't "interpret" an Omen incorrectly. Look up the word interpret. Also the images Starclan provided Medicine cats are so vauge, no one should be blamed for not getting their stupidly specific meaning. If Starclan didn't want the Medicine cat reporting the omen, they would of never sent it in the first place.
Medicine cats are given Signs for a reason. Hardly ever, does the Sign personally about the Medicine cat themselves, it's always about someone else that needs to be notified about it. Omens need to be reported to someone else one way or the other, in order for it's meaning to be fulfilled. A Medicine cat trying to tackle the danger an Omen warned them about, without telling anyone, would just be foolish and unresponsible. Medicine cats ain't equipped to deal with situations, they have neither the fighting skills or authority to make decisions. That's why Medicine cats are Messages and nothing else. Someone else, usally of those power in Leaders and Deputies, must be told, so the Omen's warning can be acted on.
Also about Ravenwing "protecting his Clanmates: That's right- Medicine cats are meant to protect as many Clanmates as possible. Apart from the fact, it's literally impossible to protect everyone in this situation. So it either: Protect 4 cats, one of which is a traitor and 3 should be assumed to be legally safe because they are innocent/kits - Over literally Everyone else - 20+ of members Thunderclan, including Elders, Apprentice and other Queens/Kits. Or expose a traitor so they get rightfully punished for their own crime, Everyone learns a hard truth but ultimately one they needed to know and run a tiny risk with the kits somehow being offically punished, which shouln't be a risk at all, considering they should be protected by the code, so Ravenwing shouldn't need to worry about that.
20+ members including Elders, apprentice and other Queens/kits or 1 traitor/3 kits of should be legally safe. The choose is obvious to me. Look. I get your point of view. But I just don’t agree with it. Just like you don’t agree with mine. I know I commented to make the ashfur comment, but we’ve gone back to running around in circles. I think Ravenwing is *partially* at fault and ignored his medicine cat duty by endangering kits. You don’t see it that way and in fact you see the opposite. That’s fine. But just like I can’t convince you with my logic, you can’t convince me with yours. It is what it is. I don’t think Ravenwing should be in the Dark Forest, but he knew his job and he only chose to do one part of it (interpreting omens) while refusing to do another (protecting all clanmates and ignoring clan politics); for that reason and more, I dislike him and do partially blame him for what happened. That’s all. I’m going to reiterate that I’ve rebutted all of your points several times over, so there’s really no point in repeating what I’ve already said (and what you’ve already repeated too). Furthermore, yes, things are interpreted wrong. FOR INSTANCE: Do you recall when cinderpwlt saw the tiger leaping through fire and told Firestar that “Fire and Tiger will destroy the clans!” And he interpreted it as “oh no my daughter and the son of Tigerstar will destroy the clans.” Because that was incorrectly interpreted. Omens CAN and HAVE been interpreted incorrectly. You said originally that ravenwing was doing his duty, which you thought was right. Then you said you thought he was right because truth comes above all. Now you’re saying he’s right because he’s protecting the clan as a whole as opposed to three innocent children (despite the fact that his ‘protection’ gets them, himself, two warriors, and a whole mess of other cats killed down the line). It’s not obvious to me what points you think protect and absolve ravenwing of what he did. If you think that’s obvious, and that he’s truly protecting his clan, I truly cannot change how you feel. I completely disagree and think he’s a crappy medicine cat who picks and chooses which clan politics he aligns himself with. Even *if* he suspected Appledusk did purposely murder anyone, he is supposed to excuse himself from those politics (as stated in the medicine cat code). It’s obvious to me that you protect EVERYONE—especially innocent children. And ravenwing did the opposite due to pride and a POOR interpretation of the meaning of an omen.
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Post by streamflower on Nov 21, 2018 19:25:18 GMT -5
Why are you assuming that if Ravenwing hadn't of spoken up, the entire Clan would be in danger? You are jumping to conclusions and coming up with scenarios that didn't happen to justify your argument. There is no proof the entirety of ThunderClan would be in danger if Ravenwing had kept quiet. ThunderClan and RiverClan were already at war with one another before these kits were even born, and continued to be at war with one another until the Clans moved to the lake, even beyond that. Mapleshade had already been trespassing on Riverclan territory within the book, a Riverclan patrol actually spotting them. Even if it was just a handful of extra battles Mapleshade caused by her trespassing/information leaking (As far as Ravenwing knows), that's still a massive threat for one cat to have. Two Thunderclan cats were already dead and a Riverclan warrior at the Gathering threatened they'd been willing to kill anymore. Warriors would of died, if there were more excuses for battles, which is exactly what Mapleshade was giving them. When did mapleshade “leak information” seriously you keep making this point with nothing to back it up with. And then still, ravenwing could have kept quiet and mapleshade found out on her own?? Furthermore, 3 kits, three warriors, and a medicine cat died (and countless others afterwards) because ravenwing spoke up when he did, so the damage could have been far less if he’d stayed quiet.
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Post by gonxkillua on Nov 21, 2018 21:28:08 GMT -5
Why are you assuming that if Ravenwing hadn't of spoken up, the entire Clan would be in danger? You are jumping to conclusions and coming up with scenarios that didn't happen to justify your argument. There is no proof the entirety of ThunderClan would be in danger if Ravenwing had kept quiet. ThunderClan and RiverClan were already at war with one another before these kits were even born, and continued to be at war with one another until the Clans moved to the lake, even beyond that. Mapleshade had already been trespassing on Riverclan territory within the book, a Riverclan patrol actually spotting them. Even if it was just a handful of extra battles Mapleshade caused by her trespassing/information leaking (As far as Ravenwing knows), that's still a massive threat for one cat to have. Two Thunderclan cats were already dead and a Riverclan warrior at the Gathering threatened they'd been willing to kill anymore. Warriors would of died, if there were more excuses for battles, which is exactly what Mapleshade was giving them. But there is nothing to indicate that Ravenwing acually belived that Maapleshade would leak information to RC he never told her he thought she would do that and she explained she wanted the kits to untie the clans but grow up TC first to him. Him ratimg out Mapleshade and the kits becuse he thought she would leak info or keep trespassing is not hinted or supported by the narrative. He rattted just becuse of the omen and becuse he didnt want to cover for Maplshade that is all not becuse he thought anybody would get physically hurt.
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Asexual
Mayflower
I am a Daisy and Ferncloud stan first, and a human being second
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Post by Mayflower on Nov 21, 2018 22:52:18 GMT -5
Why are you assuming that if Ravenwing hadn't of spoken up, the entire Clan would be in danger? You are jumping to conclusions and coming up with scenarios that didn't happen to justify your argument. There is no proof the entirety of ThunderClan would be in danger if Ravenwing had kept quiet. ThunderClan and RiverClan were already at war with one another before these kits were even born, and continued to be at war with one another until the Clans moved to the lake, even beyond that. Mapleshade had already been trespassing on Riverclan territory within the book, a Riverclan patrol actually spotting them. Even if it was just a handful of extra battles Mapleshade caused by her trespassing/information leaking (As far as Ravenwing knows), that's still a massive threat for one cat to have. Two Thunderclan cats were already dead and a Riverclan warrior at the Gathering threatened they'd been willing to kill anymore. Warriors would of died, if there were more excuses for battles, which is exactly what Mapleshade was giving them. You are giving Ravenwing thoughts and actions that the narrative does not mention and/or support. You're writing it as though we had his POV. When I read your responses, I halfway feel that I missed a novella on Ravenwing or something.
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Post by Brindlefern on Nov 22, 2018 1:00:26 GMT -5
Once again, show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to your leader. Because last time I checked, it doesn’t. In fact it tells medicine cats to avoid the issue of clan politics and affairs in favor of the cats they are supposed to take care of—in this case, innocent kits. Ravenwing fails his duty in that sense. Except we literally have no set Medicine Cat Code listed anywhere in the books period outside a few mentions of them being outside normal clan politics and are free to go almost anywhere within reason, which can barely be called an actual code to begin with compared to that of a Warriors'. Anything folks do think of it is all fanmade or from what we gather in the main series itself, which as we all know flip flops constantly, considering Med. Cats are also like a symbol of peace yet we have Tree who's a useless Mediator when any other Medicine Cat could and has done his job in the past without another role needed, and Med. Cats are supposed to be the most respected in the clans period, yet we're shown in TRS Tigerfart has almost no respect to them to the point he antagonizes Jayfeather about Flametail and even goes as far as to THREATEN Alderheart. :/// So um... this isn't really something to use as support for an argument. There's hardly anything to use, so no wonder there "isn't anything saying so".
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Post by streamflower on Nov 22, 2018 2:38:06 GMT -5
Once again, show me where in the medicine cat code it says to report everything to your leader. Because last time I checked, it doesn’t. In fact it tells medicine cats to avoid the issue of clan politics and affairs in favor of the cats they are supposed to take care of—in this case, innocent kits. Ravenwing fails his duty in that sense. Except we literally have no set Medicine Cat Code listed anywhere in the books period outside a few mentions of them being outside normal clan politics and are free to go almost anywhere within reason, which can barely be called an actual code to begin with compared to that of a Warriors'. Anything folks do think of it is all fanmade or from what we gather in the main series itself, which as we all know flip flops constantly, considering Med. Cats are also like a symbol of peace yet we have Tree who's a useless Mediator when any other Medicine Cat could and has done his job in the past without another role needed, and Med. Cats are supposed to be the most respected in the clans period, yet we're shown in TRS Tigerfart has almost no respect to them to the point he antagonizes Jayfeather about Flametail and even goes as far as to THREATEN Alderheart. :/// So um... this isn't really something to use as support for an argument. There's hardly anything to use, so no wonder there "isn't anything saying so". Alright; I thought there was something of it in code of the clans. But by your point, the original point of this thread is rendered inert, as the original point was pointing towards ravenwing being right in his actions due to his duty as a medicine cat and the medicine cat code. I think it’s been mentioned enough that medicine cats need avoid clan politics and care for ALL the clan—and other clan cats for that matter, be they half clan or not—hence why I continue to disagree with ravenwings course of action and will correlate his actions to the death of the kits. Also if we’re being entirely fair Tigerstar II is trash and a try hard so I really don’t expect much from him regardless of what the code says.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 3:07:25 GMT -5
Mapleshade had already been trespassing on Riverclan territory within the book, a Riverclan patrol actually spotting them. Even if it was just a handful of extra battles Mapleshade caused by her trespassing/information leaking (As far as Ravenwing knows), that's still a massive threat for one cat to have. Two Thunderclan cats were already dead and a Riverclan warrior at the Gathering threatened they'd been willing to kill anymore. Warriors would of died, if there were more excuses for battles, which is exactly what Mapleshade was giving them. But there is nothing to indicate that Ravenwing acually belived that Maapleshade would leak information to RC he never told her he thought she would do that and she explained she wanted the kits to untie the clans but grow up TC first to him. Him ratimg out Mapleshade and the kits becuse he thought she would leak info or keep trespassing is not hinted or supported by the narrative. He rattted just becuse of the omen and becuse he didnt want to cover for Maplshade that is all not becuse he thought anybody would get physically hurt. But he literally saw personally Mapleshade sneaking the kits to the Riverclan border and letting them play in the River, while a Riverclan patrol spotted them. That could of easily lead to a battle if Riverclan patrol took it the wrong way or if a Thunderclan patrol had seen it too. Anyway the reason you've provided are still perfectly valid in my option. He's a Medicine cat, got a omen and did his duty. Also, he has no personal investment in the whole sistuation, he's innocent bystander who unfairly got wrapped in it. He's shouldn't be expected to become a traitor/liar himself just to protect a traitor from their own crimes. Finally, what Mapleshade's lies were pretty disgusting, claiming to be her Mate's murder victim, actual and mother of his kits - Even allowing his grieving family to raise. Thunderclan definitely had a right to know that, including the kits themselves, as they thought their father was dead, when he was actually alive.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2018 3:15:39 GMT -5
Why are you assuming that if Ravenwing hadn't of spoken up, the entire Clan would be in danger? You are jumping to conclusions and coming up with scenarios that didn't happen to justify your argument. There is no proof the entirety of ThunderClan would be in danger if Ravenwing had kept quiet. ThunderClan and RiverClan were already at war with one another before these kits were even born, and continued to be at war with one another until the Clans moved to the lake, even beyond that. Also, you're thinking on far too large of a scale. Even if one single cat can only cause probably a handful of battles, it shouldn't be understated how much damage a single battle can do. Also just how much trouble Forbidden mates can cause: Many people say Willow Tail deserves the Dark Forest, for purposefully staging one single battle. If assuming Heatherpaw tell about the tunnels to specifically trigger a battle, like some fans like to assume: That would mean - Squirrelflight was almost fatally wounded and Lionpaw in his rage, almost killed 4 cats, Mosspelt, Crowfeather, Heatherpaw and unnamed Windclan warrior. Greystripe caused Thunderclan and Riverclan to threaten each other over the kits, which could of easily lead to battles. Also, while he was in Riverclan, Greystripe betrayed it by leaking information about Riverclan's battle plan, aiding in their defeat. Reedfeather caused a Riverclan patrol to raid Windclan's camp to get back the Half-clan kits. Reedfeather himself almost got drowned by Hailstar. Dovewing leaked the information of Jayfeather's secret herbs to Tigerheart - Which ended up Shadowclan kidnapping an apprentice. Oakheart almost got himself killed after he was caught trespassing by Thistleclaw for Bluefur. Could of easily lead to his death and future battles with Thunderclan.
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Post by Viperstrike on Nov 22, 2018 12:19:46 GMT -5
Why are you assuming that if Ravenwing hadn't of spoken up, the entire Clan would be in danger? You are jumping to conclusions and coming up with scenarios that didn't happen to justify your argument. There is no proof the entirety of ThunderClan would be in danger if Ravenwing had kept quiet. ThunderClan and RiverClan were already at war with one another before these kits were even born, and continued to be at war with one another until the Clans moved to the lake, even beyond that. Also, you're thinking on far too large of a scale. Even if one single cat can only cause probably a handful of battles, it shouldn't be understated how much damage a single battle can do. Also just how much trouble Forbidden mates can cause: Many people say Willow Tail deserves the Dark Forest, for purposefully staging one single battle. If assuming Heatherpaw tell about the tunnels to specifically trigger a battle, like some fans like to assume: That would mean - Squirrelflight was almost fatally wounded and Lionpaw in his rage, almost killed 4 cats, Mosspelt, Crowfeather, Heatherpaw and unnamed Windclan warrior. Greystripe caused Thunderclan and Riverclan to threaten each other over the kits, which could of easily lead to battles. Also, while he was in Riverclan, Greystripe betrayed it by leaking information about Riverclan's battle plan, aiding in their defeat. Reedfeather caused a Riverclan patrol to raid Windclan's camp to get back the Half-clan kits. Reedfeather himself almost got drowned by Hailstar. Dovewing leaked the information of Jayfeather's secret herbs to Tigerheart - Which ended up Shadowclan kidnapping an apprentice. Oakheart almost got himself killed after he was caught trespassing by Thistleclaw for Bluefur. Could of easily lead to his death and future battles with Thunderclan. Literally anyone can cause anything in Warriors. They're a battle society where war is common. We've already seen cats start fights with one another over nothing. You can't punish someone over something that *might* happen. It isn't fair to use those examples seeing as how almost all of them are future events that Ravenwing or ThunderClan would have no reference to.
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