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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 13:59:42 GMT -5
Personally I just don't like her, she's a bad influence and I feel like she doesn't even try to understand Crowfeather. I know Crowfeather is just as bad, but if people are going to hate on Crowfeather for using her, they have to take in Nightcloud's part as well since she too wanted to use him for kits. She tried to make him love her, which is pretty gross to me. You can't force love onto someone, and I don't think she's a good influence to Breezepelt. She aims negative things at Leafpool, doesn't scold Breezepelt for his bad behavior, and coddles him. It's unhealthy and bad examples. I personally just can't feel sorry for her. She is pretty disgusting and just as bad as Crowfeather.
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Post by Jaysnow on Jul 10, 2018 14:04:15 GMT -5
I dislike her, hate Breezepelt.
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Post by Chocolate-Fawn on Jul 10, 2018 14:15:24 GMT -5
Ugggghhh she's such a pain. I hate both Nightcloud and Crowfeather they both annoy the heck out of me. I have no opinion on Breezepelt he's just fun to draw.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 14:38:14 GMT -5
I don't really like Nightcloud because she can be annoying, but I don't flat-out hate her.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 10, 2018 14:43:30 GMT -5
I've never felt bad for her. She's a terrible mate and mother.
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 10, 2018 14:45:52 GMT -5
I don't care for her myself but I certainly can't find any reason to like her. While Crow did her dirty for literally using her as a rebound, she's no better herself as a character tbh.
Both sides on who's the worse parent tend to flip flop back and forth to the point people call Crowfeather the worst parent (At this point I feel like he's just emotionally distant but that's not saying it makes a good defense/make him any better) or do it for Nightcloud, there's no real answer tbh. This is why I hate TUG because of the fact that it's full of contradictory information and seems to have split some folks in terms on what is right or wrong when it comes to Nightcloud. Either Crowfeather used her to get his clan's loyalty back and is an absolutely terrible father because of him being distant to his son, or Nightcloud is a bad mother because she used him for kits and coddles her son all the time rather than scold him for the shiz he's done so far, and there's also TLH where Crowfeather tells Breezepelt that Nightcloud led him to believe he hated their son. All this stuff we're told and not shown. I'm not saying the editors/authors should "Show, don't Tell" 100% if they want this stuff to be debunked, but it's kinda hard to know the truth in evidence when we aren't around Crowfeather and Nightcloud and Breezepelt all the time with our usually TC-centric PoV.
While I'm not super excited for CT for obvious reasons, it'd at the very least, HOPEFULLY, let us see how their family relations are in actual depth, even if it's at the expense of being through a biased PoV like Crows'.
In the end, I have no good opinion on either tbh, I just find them annoying at this point, Breezepelt included.
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Post by olivepatch on Jul 10, 2018 14:45:53 GMT -5
i feel bad for her, but i don’t really... like her. she’s so defensive of herself. but where did it say she used crowfeather for kits and all that?
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Post by Brindlefern on Jul 10, 2018 14:47:47 GMT -5
i feel bad for her, but i don’t really... like her. she’s so defensive of herself. but where did it say she used crowfeather for kits and all that? The Ultimate Guide I believe? But I'd take what that says with a grain of salt, for it's full of contradictions. If it tried to make Ashfur look like the innocent one (Considering Vicky wrote it) then you know not to take everything it says at face value. *coughs*
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Post by Sundance on Jul 10, 2018 15:05:59 GMT -5
I agree with you! Nightcloud is clearly shown to be a toxic influence on Breezepelt, and just a nasty person in general. Even if her relationship with Crowfeather is a steaming pile of dung, it certainly doesn't justify her crappy behavior in my opinion . . .
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Post by Redwing on Jul 10, 2018 17:23:11 GMT -5
Nightcloud is so annoying. She never saw the bad of Breezepelt and acted like a horrible mate and mother. If you hear some news about a mom doing something bad to her kid, that's Nightcloud. Crowfeather never deserved her, and I think she deserves to the go the Dark Forest.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jul 10, 2018 17:28:39 GMT -5
Sigh. Not this again. I will defend her. She's better than this crap that is being spewed out. She was great in the short ROF scene she was in. I like her far more than Crowfeather and she's a much better parenr.
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Post by Basement Cat on Jul 10, 2018 17:28:52 GMT -5
I don't feel like it's wrong to feel bad for Nightcloud, but at the same time, I can't ignore she did have a role to play in never punishing Breezepelt for his bad behavior and encouraging him to hate his own father. But I can also understand how frustrating it would be to not be second-best, but third-best, and then never loved like Feathertail or Leafpool. This question doesn't have a definite answer. It really just depends on how much you sympathize with her situation.
For me personally, I have some empathy for the bitterness she might feel, but I don't really like her that much. She's just not that likable to me, and her personality is sharp and scathing, which I also tend to dislike.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 18:22:15 GMT -5
I agree with you! Nightcloud is clearly shown to be a toxic influence on Breezepelt, and just a nasty person in general. Even if her relationship with Crowfeather is a steaming pile of dung, it certainly doesn't justify her crappy behavior in my opinion . . . Wow, I forgot some of those rude lines. She practically doesn't care that RiverClan is going hungry.. She has no compassion whatsoever. She really is disgusting, worse than Crowfeather, even. At least the guy has a heart.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jul 10, 2018 18:45:34 GMT -5
I agree with you! Nightcloud is clearly shown to be a toxic influence on Breezepelt, and just a nasty person in general. Even if her relationship with Crowfeather is a steaming pile of dung, it certainly doesn't justify her crappy behavior in my opinion . . . Wow, I forgot some of those rude lines. She practically doesn't care that RiverClan is going hungry.. She has no compassion whatsoever. She really is disgusting, worse than Crowfeather, even. At least the guy has a heart. And yet in River of Fire, Nightcloud eagerly and dutifully helped Riverclan cats endangered by fire. "Every cat started pushing even more strongly, encouraged as the log moved faster and faster until it reached the stream. Alderheart, Nightcloud and Larksong pushed to manuever it into the right place; then every cat gave one final thrust to drive it across the current." River of Fire, Pg.169 Not to mention when Mistystar was nervous about the rest of her clan and where they would go, Nightcloud, with no hesitation, spoke this. "I'm sure Harestar would take in some cats, too." Pg.170 The Windclan cats didn't even hesitate to join up with Thunderclan to help Riverclan out. Not once was Nightcloud petty or snarky. Not once did she nash her teeth about doing work for another clan. No compassion, I think that goes to Crowfeather, who had this to say during the gathering. "That's all very well, Mistystar." He began, his voice harsh, an irritated look in his eyes."It's beginning to feel like you're using other clans. You wanted nothing to do with us until we came and saved your tails, and now that you need help, you want to be a Clan again." -Crowfeather, pg.194 Considering it was Nightcloud who was "saving their tails" as their camp that was decimated by Darktail's rouges now burned in a fire, and Crowfeather is assuming Riverclan is using the other clans when they once again need help from things they cannot control, I see an opposite here. Crowfeather is more cruel here. Not much of a heart.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 18:54:30 GMT -5
I agree with you! Nightcloud is clearly shown to be a toxic influence on Breezepelt, and just a nasty person in general. Even if her relationship with Crowfeather is a steaming pile of dung, it certainly doesn't justify her crappy behavior in my opinion . . . I forgot about those scenes. That makes me dislike Nightcloud a little bit more.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2018 0:08:28 GMT -5
Here go again. Honestly, I'm too tired to defend her at this point, people really take her at face value. *rolls eyes*
Anyways let's go back to ignoring Crowfeather, he's clearly done nothing wrong, that poor baby boy, everything is Nightcloud's fault, what a terrible parent she was.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jul 11, 2018 0:19:37 GMT -5
Here go again. Honestly, I'm too tired to defend her at this point, people really take her at face value. *rolls eyes* Anyways let's go back to ignoring Crowfeather, he's clearly done nothing wrong, that poor baby boy, everything is Nightcloud's fault, what a terrible parent she was. Right? Crowfeather: Loves two she-cats from different clans and breaks the code multiple times, takes Nightcloud as a mate to be seen as loyal, ignores the only kit they have together, praises a cat from another clan over his own son, treats him like a candy wrapper during a dangerous journey, is emotionally aggressive, judgemental and harsh, watched his sons fight like animals without acting. Nightcloud: Hugs her kit too much and snaps at the tom who literally ignores her son maybe, just maybe, because she wants to make up for Crowfeather's lack of involvement in their son's life by increasing her involvement. Yet somehow Nightcloud is just as bad if not worse??? It just...I don't know, it boggles me...
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2018 0:22:42 GMT -5
Personally I just don't like her, she's a bad influence and I feel like she doesn't even try to understand Crowfeather. I know Crowfeather is just as bad, but if people are going to hate on Crowfeather for using her, they have to take in Nightcloud's part as well since she too wanted to use him for kits. She tried to make him love her, which is pretty gross to me. You can't force love onto someone, and I don't think she's a good influence to Breezepelt. She aims negative things at Leafpool, doesn't scold Breezepelt for his bad behavior, and coddles him. It's unhealthy and bad examples. I personally just can't feel sorry for her. She is pretty disgusting and just as bad as Crowfeather. Actually, I lied, I'm going to talk about it after all. "I feel like she doesn't even try to understand Crowfeather."How so? Where are you even getting that from? She actually tried to be affectionate with Crowfeather several times in the series, you see her even saying her good-byes to him before he leaves for the mountains but he's too busy thinking about other things. He also blatantly ignored his son in favor of Feathertail's grave, not caring that Breezepelt was watching him mourn over another she-cat he apparently loved. There was never a moment in the story that indicated that Night never tried with Crow. "they have to take in Nightcloud's part as well since she too wanted to use him for kits."If Nightcloud was using Crowfeather for kits she could have left him after she became pregnant, after he was born, or after he became a warrior, lol. Clearly, that's not the case. However, Crowfeather did use her to look loyal in the eyes of his clan, they had something to fall back on when the secret got out. "She tried to make him love her, which is pretty gross to me."How is it gross for someone to want another person to fall in love with them??? I could understand if Crowfeather wasn't her mate, and also outright rejected her, or said he wasn't interested, and if she continued to pursue him, then yeah that is gross. But that's not the case, not what you're trying to project. Crowfeather approached her, with becoming mates, excuse her for wanting to be in love with a cat that wanted to be mates with her, wow. It's almost as if being mates is the equivalent of a couple getting married, which I guess isn't supposed to be about love either, right? "I don't think she's a good influence to Breezepelt"And yet she the only parent that actually paid him attention, oof. "She aims negative things at Leafpool"Only after the secret got out about Crowfeather having a secret illegal clan affair with another she-cat from another clan who also happens to be a medicine cat. Also lest we forget WindClan's personal grudge with ThunderClan in general thanks to their leader Onestar. "doesn't scold Breezepelt for his bad behavior, and coddles him"About 60% of the time we saw Breezepelt, it wasn't even around Nightcloud. Correct me if I'm wrong the only major moments was when Breeze almost died, and she scolded him for being ungrateful about Lion when he saved Heather. The other time she scolded Crow for not having much faith in his son in the first place. And the other time Breeze and Lion got in a fight, one Lion instigated, and one where Crowfeather just stood by and did nothing until Leafpool got involved, nice priorities. Also there's literally an entire scene where Crow outright teaches his son to hate on other clans for celebrating Half-clan blood cats, just so he could take a jab at Leafpool. She is pretty disgusting and just as bad as Crowfeather.Oh yes, the one parent that actually tried to make a relationship work, actually tried to raise their son, and actually, care about him is just as bad as the neglectful hypocritical cold hateful one. Right.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2018 0:24:16 GMT -5
Here go again. Honestly, I'm too tired to defend her at this point, people really take her at face value. *rolls eyes* Anyways let's go back to ignoring Crowfeather, he's clearly done nothing wrong, that poor baby boy, everything is Nightcloud's fault, what a terrible parent she was. Right? Crowfeather: Loves two she-cats from different clans and breaks the code multiple times, takes Nightcloud as a mate to be seen as loyal, ignores the only kit they have together, praises a cat from another clan over his own son, treats him like a candy wrapper during a dangerous journey, is emotionally aggressive, judgemental and harsh, watched his sons fight like animals without acting. Nightcloud: Hugs her kit too much and snaps at the tom who literally ignores her son maybe, just maybe, because she wants to make up for Crowfeather's lack of involvement in their son's life by increasing her involvement. Yet somehow Nightcloud is just as bad if not worse??? It just...I don't know, it boggles me... Truly mind-boggling how Nightcloud, who showed genuine concern over ShadowClan, is just as bad as the cat that mocked them and thought it was amusing when they begged for herbs to save their dying Clan.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jul 11, 2018 0:26:22 GMT -5
Right? Crowfeather: Loves two she-cats from different clans and breaks the code multiple times, takes Nightcloud as a mate to be seen as loyal, ignores the only kit they have together, praises a cat from another clan over his own son, treats him like a candy wrapper during a dangerous journey, is emotionally aggressive, judgemental and harsh, watched his sons fight like animals without acting. Nightcloud: Hugs her kit too much and snaps at the tom who literally ignores her son maybe, just maybe, because she wants to make up for Crowfeather's lack of involvement in their son's life by increasing her involvement. Yet somehow Nightcloud is just as bad if not worse??? It just...I don't know, it boggles me... Truly mind-boggling how Nightcloud, who showed genuine concern over ShadowClan, is just as bad as the cat that mocked them and thought it was amusing when they begged for herbs to save their dying Clan. Oof. And who helped to save Riverclan cats during the fire and offered Mistystar up front the offer for Riverclan cats to stay in Windclan without a single snide or eye roll. Ooooofff.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2018 0:34:37 GMT -5
Truly mind-boggling how Nightcloud, who showed genuine concern over ShadowClan, is just as bad as the cat that mocked them and thought it was amusing when they begged for herbs to save their dying Clan. Oof. And who helped to save Riverclan cats during the fire and offered Mistystar up front the offer for Riverclan cats to stay in Windclan without a single snide or eye roll. Ooooofff. Also lol at people getting mad at Night for being angry at Jay over him being a murderer, when he actually lied about being in their territory in the first place. And practically all the cats at the time thought he was a murderer, but no Night is the worse out of all them, amirite?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2018 0:38:39 GMT -5
Nightcloud:
> Led dogs away from her camp to save her clanmates. > Chides Crowfeather for not having enough faith in his son. > Scolded Breezepelt for being ungrateful over Lion saving Heather > Helped Jay dig out Lion and Breeze when they get trapped underground > Comforted both Lion and Breeze after said incident > Was extremely grateful to Jay for saving them > Was being affectionate and loving with Crowfeather who didn't seem to care. > Actually defended her mate when the secret got out at the gathering. > Nightcloud hissed at Crow when he didn't care that Breeze got hurt during his fight with Lion. > Breeze never held Night accountable for his hardships, only Crow for being neglectful. > Was concerned and nervous when cats came for the herbs, she wasn't mocking them like Crow. > Objected, alongside Leafpool of all cats, about ShadowClan disbanding, trying to defend them. > Helped saved a bunch of cats during the fire and even offered them to stay in WindClan. > Is generally a respectable cat in WindClan.
Hmm. Alright ya.
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Post by Moonblazer on Jul 11, 2018 0:41:15 GMT -5
Nightcloud: > Led dogs away from her camp to save her clanmates. > Chides Crowfeather for not having enough faith in his son. > Scolded Breezepelt for being ungrateful over Lion saving Heather > Helped Jay dig out Lion and Breeze when they get trapped underground > Comforted both Lion and Breeze after said incident > Was extremely grateful to Jay for saving them > Was being affectionate and loving with Crowfeather who didn't seem to care. > Actually defended her mate when the secret got out at the gathering. > Nightcloud hissed at Crow when he didn't care that Breeze got hurt during his fight with Lion. > Breeze never held Night accountable for his hardships, only Crow for being neglectful. > Was concerned and nervous when cats came for the herbs, she wasn't mocking them like Crow. > Objected, alongside Leafpool of all cats, about ShadowClan disbanding, trying to defend them. > Helped saved a bunch of cats during the fire and even offered them to stay in WindClan. > Is generally a respectable cat in WindClan. Hmm. Alright ya. I didn't know it was Sunday, but by the way you're preaching to me right now, I guess I just lost track of the days!
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Post by gonxkillua on Jul 11, 2018 0:47:08 GMT -5
She has made mistakes and has problems but she doesn't deserve all the hate she gets if you ask me.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 11, 2018 0:51:19 GMT -5
Honestly, she deserved better than being used the way she was. She deserves a mate that actually appreciates her, and her son deserved an actual father, but oof it's too late for him. At this point, I just hope she and Crow are no longer together if she is wow talk about dedication, cause Crow does not deserve that kind of loyalty. I just want to see Nightcloud hanging around her grandkits and retiring happily, or at least getting a higher ranking in the clan. She honestly deserves deputy over a cat like Crow, no lie.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 11, 2018 2:21:11 GMT -5
Reading all the posts makes me excited to see how she really is in CT. We'll definitely get answers. Honestly, I think she's still trash. Crowfeather is just as bad as her. She has no redeeming qualities because there's hard to get context on her good actions. She could be following orders, hence her eagerness. Especially when she's shown to be abusive to her apprentice.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 13, 2018 0:25:23 GMT -5
Short answer: Yes, absolutely, we should feel bad for her.
Long answer: Why SHOULD she try to understand Crowfeather? It's confirmed that he literally resented her because he didn't love her, even though he took her as a mate to prove his loyalty. She tries to get him to love her because he's her mate, which was his choice. It's not unreasonable to be hurt and insecure because the cat that is essentially her husband canonically hates her for reasons that are his own fault. He didn't have to take her as a mate, but he did so to show that he was loyal to WindClan.
It's also implied that Breezepelt is older than the three. So take that as you will with how that lines up with the timeline of him being with Leafpool.
Of course she coddles Breezpelt - she's his mother and literally the only cat who is shown to realize his awful relationship with his father and just how much that hurts him. Nightcloud defends Breezepelt from his scrutiny and is shown to stick up for and advocate for Breezepelt when he's young. How does defending her son make her "as bad" as the cat that neglected and arguably was emotionally abusive towards him?
Also, I've got to say... I'm really tired of the ye olde "Nightcloud encouraged Breezepelt to hate Crowfeather" saying. There is no true in-text evidence to support this. The ONLY thing that could possibly hold it up is Crowfeather claiming it in the Dark Forest Battle, which just sounds like an abuser trying to deflect blame - something abusers LOVE to do. Of course Crowfeather isn't going to take responsibility for treating Breezepelt terribly... he doesn't think he's done anything wrong and his mate is an easy scapegoat.
We do, however, have actual scenes WITHOUT Nightcloud where Breezepaw/pelt is shown to be hurt by how Crowfeather acts towards him. For example, when they journey to the Tribe, he's shown from every POV to want his father's approval and to be bitterly disappointed when he doesn't get it.
Edit: The rest of this was cut off for some reason and I don't want to write it all out again, but if you look at late scenes in Outcast and early scenes in Eclipse, Breezepaw is shown from multiple perspectives to be upset with how Crowfeather acts and the POV characters frequently think to themselves that Crowfeather treats him badly with zero Nightcloud influence or presence. Her contribution to Outcast is telling Crowfeather to "take care" while he stares off into the distance.
Also, of course Nightcloud was rude to Leafpool. She's essentially her mate's illegal mistress. Again, it's EXTREMELY LIKELY that Breezepelt is slightly older than three, implying Crowfeather was with them both at the same time. Nightcloud got the short end of the stick, and yet she gets blamed for everything because she doesn't have a likeable personality.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 13, 2018 0:33:00 GMT -5
Reading all the posts makes me excited to see how she really is in CT. We'll definitely get answers. Honestly, I think she's still trash. Crowfeather is just as bad as her. She has no redeeming qualities because there's hard to get context on her good actions. She could be following orders, hence her eagerness. Especially when she's shown to be abusive to her apprentice. Uh... what? Cuffing Hootpaw over the ears for spilling Clan secrets isn't abusive. Plenty of cats get their ears boxed in Warriors for saying something stupid or disrespectful. If she clawed him or struck him severely, sure, but she was telling him to shut up because he was running his mouth about how WindClan was starving - something apprentices aren't supposed to do to an enemy Clan.
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 13, 2018 1:52:13 GMT -5
Reading all the posts makes me excited to see how she really is in CT. We'll definitely get answers. Honestly, I think she's still trash. Crowfeather is just as bad as her. She has no redeeming qualities because there's hard to get context on her good actions. She could be following orders, hence her eagerness. Especially when she's shown to be abusive to her apprentice. Uh... what? Cuffing Hootpaw over the ears for spilling Clan secrets isn't abusive. Plenty of cats get their ears boxed in Warriors for saying something stupid or disrespectful. If she clawed him or struck him severely, sure, but she was telling him to shut up because he was running his mouth about how WindClan was starving - something apprentices aren't supposed to do to an enemy Clan. She still has no right to act that way. I see it as abuse. No one should be treated like that. She's also physically abusive to Crowfeather. You know, she literally dragged him away from Leafpool. Trash like that needs to go.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 13, 2018 2:09:21 GMT -5
Among all the clans WindClan is known for being the "Weakest" arguably, because of their smaller frames, which is one of the reasons why Onestar has such an aggressive leadership. He picked a fight, to challenge Firestar, not only to break away the remnants of his friendship with him but to prove that they aren't weak and can stand on their own, imo he didn't go about it the right way. It's not good to spill clan secrets, and show signs of weakness, and this is especially so for WindClan cats. They've been dragged through the mud for ages, chased out by Brokenstar, and then babysat by ThunderClan. An apprentice should hold their tongue and not make their patrol seem so weak. Cuffing is literally just slapping someone on the back of the head for idiocy. Also if Nightcloud dragging her mate away from a female he's had a controversial relationship with makes her trash, but Crowfeather standing aside and watching his two son's maul each other isn't worse, then wow.
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