|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 13, 2018 2:25:45 GMT -5
- When Emberkit tried to lick Petalfall she got cuffed over the ear by her mother, Hazelwing.
- Sharp Hail cuffed Sun Shadow when he lashed out at Dewy Leaf.
- Fireheart cuffed Cloudpaw for being a sarcastic furball.
- Cherryfall cuffed her own brother, Molewhisker, for being rude to Bramblestar.
Interesting how it's only abuse when it comes to Nightcloud, but yet no one ever points these other incidences out.
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 13, 2018 3:47:54 GMT -5
- When Emberkit tried to lick Petalfall she got cuffed over the ear by her mother, Hazelwing. - Sharp Hail cuffed Sun Shadow when he lashed out at Dewy Leaf. - Fireheart cuffed Cloudpaw for being a sarcastic furball. - Cherryfall cuffed her own brother, Molewhisker, for being rude to Bramblestar. Interesting how it's only abuse when it comes to Nightcloud, but yet no one ever points these other incidences out. Isn't a cuff just a light whap to a part of the body? Why is this a big deal? It's like flicking a dog on it's nose. You shouldn't flick a dog on it's nose. From what I can hear, that can actually hurt it.
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 13, 2018 3:52:07 GMT -5
Among all the clans WindClan is known for being the "Weakest" arguably, because of their smaller frames, which is one of the reasons why Onestar has such an aggressive leadership. He picked a fight, to challenge Firestar, not only to break away the remnants of his friendship with him but to prove that they aren't weak and can stand on their own, imo he didn't go about it the right way. It's not good to spill clan secrets, and show signs of weakness, and this is especially so for WindClan cats. They've been dragged through the mud for ages, chased out by Brokenstar, and then babysat by ThunderClan. An apprentice should hold their tongue and not make their patrol seem so weak. Cuffing is literally just slapping someone on the back of the head for idiocy. Also if Nightcloud dragging her mate away from a female he's had a controversial relationship with makes her trash, but Crowfeather standing aside and watching his two son's maul each other isn't worse, then wow. I never said it wasn't worse? But at the same time I don't think it was his conflict to get involved in? Cats have fought one v. one before. Did he get any enjoyment from it? Did he make any emotion about it? No. He just watched a conflict that he shouldn't be involved in occur. Nightcloud had zero right to drag him. That's abuse. I don't care what you think of Crowfeather, but Nightcloud has been shown to be abusive and just a she-dog.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 3:52:08 GMT -5
Short answer: Yes, absolutely, we should feel bad for her. Long answer: Why SHOULD she try to understand Crowfeather? It's confirmed that he literally resented her because he didn't love her, even though he took her as a mate to prove his loyalty. She tries to get him to love her because he's her mate, which was his choice. It's not unreasonable to be hurt and insecure because the cat that is essentially her husband canonically hates her for reasons that are his own fault. He didn't have to take her as a mate, but he did so to show that he was loyal to WindClan. It's also implied that Breezepelt is older than the three. So take that as you will with how that lines up with the timeline of him being with Leafpool. Of course she coddles Breezpelt - she's his mother and literally the only cat who is shown to realize his awful relationship with his father and just how much that hurts him. Nightcloud defends Breezepelt from his scrutiny and is shown to stick up for and advocate for Breezepelt when he's young. How does defending her son make her "as bad" as the cat that neglected and arguably was emotionally abusive towards him? Also, I've got to say... I'm really tired of the ye olde "Nightcloud encouraged Breezepelt to hate Crowfeather" saying. There is no true in-text evidence to support this. The ONLY thing that could possibly hold it up is Crowfeather claiming it in the Dark Forest Battle, which just sounds like an abuser trying to deflect blame - something abusers LOVE to do. Of course Crowfeather isn't going to take responsibility for treating Breezepelt terribly... he doesn't think he's done anything wrong and his mate is an easy scapegoat. We do, however, have actual scenes WITHOUT Nightcloud where Breezepaw/pelt is shown to be hurt by how Crowfeather acts towards him. For example, when they journey to the Tribe, he's shown from every POV to want his father's approval and to be bitterly disappointed when he doesn't get it. Edit: The rest of this was cut off for some reason and I don't want to write it all out again, but if you look at late scenes in Outcast and early scenes in Eclipse, Breezepaw is shown from multiple perspectives to be upset with how Crowfeather acts and the POV characters frequently think to themselves that Crowfeather treats him badly with zero Nightcloud influence or presence. Her contribution to Outcast is telling Crowfeather to "take care" while he stares off into the distance. Also, of course Nightcloud was rude to Leafpool. She's essentially her mate's illegal mistress. Again, it's EXTREMELY LIKELY that Breezepelt is slightly older than three, implying Crowfeather was with them both at the same time. Nightcloud got the short end of the stick, and yet she gets blamed for everything because she doesn't have a likeable personality. I'm sorry but I'm not going to feel sorry for a mother who coddles her kit. You're also being unfair if you can't even try to understand Crowfeather. No, people SHOULDN'T have to feel sorry for her, because she's a terrible, possessive cat. She's constantly jealous of Leafpool, practically dragged Crowfeather away from her, and is a terrible influence to her son. I can't believe epoeple actually defend her crappy behavior as a mother. Not gonna change my mind. Not happening. I have no sympathy for this brat. Also I hate Crowfeather too, but you're being unfair for not understanding him either.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 4:19:59 GMT -5
Honestly, people are being unfair for looking at just Nightcloud's PoV. If people are going to understand her, despite being a terrible influence, then you have to understand Crowfeather.
While I'm not justifying him (and people better not say that I am, because I'm not) I understand why Crowfeather is terrible. My theory is that he fell for Feathertail too fast at such a young age to develop his own personality. When Feathertail died he still didn't have time to develop his own personality, instead he grieved for her for moons. In a way he used Leafpool by transferring his feelings onto her shortly after and he thought they were going to be together. But when she broke up this ruined his reputation. Crowfeather became bitter because of this and knew he had to do something to save his reputation and this is why he turned to Nightcloud. She was one of the few cats who still looked up to him and he decided to take this opportunity. No one knows who offered the relationship first, so we really can't say who did. Hopefully his own super edition clears this up. But what I'm trying to say is that he screwed up. Big time. And because of this he's emotionally messed up. He became bitter and he was really hurt that Leafpool left him when he thought he had the second chance of happiness but his Clan probably judged him and he knew he had to work hard to save his reputation. So he went with Nightcloud and they both had Breezepelt. I don't think Crowfeather was that bad in PoT; it was in OotS when he was worse. But honestly, people need to understand that Nightcloud is no better. She's constantly jealous of Leafpool, and when he's around her she literally drags him away using her claws (if people are going to call Crowfeather abusive, why don't they aim at Nightcloud for this when she doesn't treat him right either?) she coddles her son (which isn't good parenting either, I really don't get why people aren't bothered by this) and she's also aggressive, which also isn't good parenting. These cats are so bad to each other that it's becoming known to the Clans outside of WindClan that they don't like each other. I really don't get why people try to justify Nightcloud's own parenting when she's actually a bad influence. All these traits Nightcloud shows, are not good. Breezepelt never had a positive influence and this is why he went to the Dark Forest. People are being extremely unfair to Crowfeather by not trying to understand him. Maybe people should try to see both sides instead of just Nightcloud's, because from what I'm seeing people aren't understanding him and blaming it all on him when both parents are just as fault. She could've said no when he offered (or she did, hell if I know) to become his mate. She tried to make him love her and that's not right. She's just a terrible cat, imo, and this is why I can't feel sorry for her.
Also fans better not say I'm babying Crowfeather when I'm not. I've been accused of babying characters like Lionblaze and I really hope this isn't going to happen here. Cause I actually hate Crowfeather, but Nightcloud more honestly, and I'm never going to change my mind. She's a bad influence. I don't know why people justify this.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 6:04:19 GMT -5
And yet in River of Fire, Nightcloud eagerly and dutifully helped Riverclan cats endangered by fire. "Every cat started pushing even more strongly, encouraged as the log moved faster and faster until it reached the stream. Alderheart, Nightcloud and Larksong pushed to manuever it into the right place; then every cat gave one final thrust to drive it across the current." River of Fire, Pg.169 Not to mention when Mistystar was nervous about the rest of her clan and where they would go, Nightcloud, with no hesitation, spoke this. "I'm sure Harestar would take in some cats, too." Pg.170 The Windclan cats didn't even hesitate to join up with Thunderclan to help Riverclan out. Not once was Nightcloud petty or snarky. Not once did she nash her teeth about doing work for another clan. No compassion, I think that goes to Crowfeather, who had this to say during the gathering. "That's all very well, Mistystar." He began, his voice harsh, an irritated look in his eyes."It's beginning to feel like you're using other clans. You wanted nothing to do with us until we came and saved your tails, and now that you need help, you want to be a Clan again." -Crowfeather, pg.194 Considering it was Nightcloud who was "saving their tails" as their camp that was decimated by Darktail's rouges now burned in a fire, and Crowfeather is assuming Riverclan is using the other clans when they once again need help from things they cannot control, I see an opposite here. Crowfeather is more cruel here. Not much of a heart. At this point I think Nightcloud has moved into the category of background character. These remarks are completely out of character and Nightcloud wouldn't go against clan orders. Crowfeather's character is to be cold, but he is not a dead fish. He has shown compassion before, and though he is now a background character as well he still has some importance so therefore they must stick to his character. I don't count these remarks as canon for Nightcloud's personality. At all. Then...why are we counting previous actions and remarks as canon then? In fact, forget any development for any background cat, clearly personality development doesn't exist for them. Nope. All those scenes of Berrynose being a good and mature father aren't canon, those scenes of Harestar helping Shadowclan with illness are not canon then. He's still the cat who trained in the Dark Forest. This statement makes 0 sense, I'm sorry. Maybe she, I don't know, has matured and developed? They're literally writing a SE about Crowfeather and Windclan, I doubt they've really written Nightcloud without remembering her personality previously. Which tells me that she clearly has compassion. And she does. She showed immense gratitude to Jayfeather when he tried to help dig Breezepelt out of the fallen badger set. She sent Crowfeather off on the trip to the mountains with affection and a desire for both her mate and son to come back safely. And with River of Fire, it's clear there were no orders forcing her to act kindly and help Riverclan. If there was, why was she saying "I'm sure Harestar would take in Riverclan cats" instead of "Harestar sent us to help you." Man, if she really was incapable of compassion, why would she offer anything instead of being begrudgingly annoyed and making it seem like the only reason she was helping a clan suffering from a fire was because she was following orders? So many people desire a Show, not Tell style of writing, and this scene, alaibet small, was exactly one of those moments. Nightcloud has always been a background character. Just because Crowfeather is more important plot wise, does not mean we can just ignore the small yet vital parts of development a background cat has. Nightcloud has compassion, and yeah, Crowfeather's not a dead fish, but he sure is a big jerk, and less compassionate than people think he is.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 6:17:10 GMT -5
Short answer: Yes, absolutely, we should feel bad for her. Long answer: Why SHOULD she try to understand Crowfeather? It's confirmed that he literally resented her because he didn't love her, even though he took her as a mate to prove his loyalty. She tries to get him to love her because he's her mate, which was his choice. It's not unreasonable to be hurt and insecure because the cat that is essentially her husband canonically hates her for reasons that are his own fault. He didn't have to take her as a mate, but he did so to show that he was loyal to WindClan. It's also implied that Breezepelt is older than the three. So take that as you will with how that lines up with the timeline of him being with Leafpool. Of course she coddles Breezpelt - she's his mother and literally the only cat who is shown to realize his awful relationship with his father and just how much that hurts him. Nightcloud defends Breezepelt from his scrutiny and is shown to stick up for and advocate for Breezepelt when he's young. How does defending her son make her "as bad" as the cat that neglected and arguably was emotionally abusive towards him? Also, I've got to say... I'm really tired of the ye olde "Nightcloud encouraged Breezepelt to hate Crowfeather" saying. There is no true in-text evidence to support this. The ONLY thing that could possibly hold it up is Crowfeather claiming it in the Dark Forest Battle, which just sounds like an abuser trying to deflect blame - something abusers LOVE to do. Of course Crowfeather isn't going to take responsibility for treating Breezepelt terribly... he doesn't think he's done anything wrong and his mate is an easy scapegoat. We do, however, have actual scenes WITHOUT Nightcloud where Breezepaw/pelt is shown to be hurt by how Crowfeather acts towards him. For example, when they journey to the Tribe, he's shown from every POV to want his father's approval and to be bitterly disappointed when he doesn't get it. Edit: The rest of this was cut off for some reason and I don't want to write it all out again, but if you look at late scenes in Outcast and early scenes in Eclipse, Breezepaw is shown from multiple perspectives to be upset with how Crowfeather acts and the POV characters frequently think to themselves that Crowfeather treats him badly with zero Nightcloud influence or presence. Her contribution to Outcast is telling Crowfeather to "take care" while he stares off into the distance. Also, of course Nightcloud was rude to Leafpool. She's essentially her mate's illegal mistress. Again, it's EXTREMELY LIKELY that Breezepelt is slightly older than three, implying Crowfeather was with them both at the same time. Nightcloud got the short end of the stick, and yet she gets blamed for everything because she doesn't have a likeable personality. I'm sorry but I'm not going to feel sorry for a mother who coddles her kit. You're also being unfair if you can't even try to understand Crowfeather. No, people SHOULDN'T have to feel sorry for her, because she's a terrible, possessive cat. She's constantly jealous of Leafpool, practically dragged Crowfeather away from her, and is a terrible influence to her son. I can't believe epoeple actually defend her crappy behavior as a mother. Not gonna change my mind. Not happening. I have no sympathy for this brat. Also I hate Crowfeather too, but you're being unfair for not understanding him either. Oh, I understand Crowfeather plenty. He uses his selfishness, a desire to be with cats outside his clan, and then a desire to find a mate in Windclan just to get his clan to not glare at him for literally running away to be with Leafpool, and he takes this selfishness and holds it over cats heads. Why is it so crazy that Nightcloud gets jealous of the cat her mate literally abandonded Windclan for, who Crowfeather clearly still has feelings for, when they have a son together who Crowfeather shows absolutely no attention to? I know your mind is not going to change, but I'll say it anyway. In fact, I think it Nightcloud that you are not attempting to understand. I used to hate Nightcloud as well, more than Crowfeather, until I realized that this kind of behavior is common in abusive family situations. Distant parents, one who ignores the child, and the other who loves the child too much. Even if it's "coddling", which honestly it isn't really that intense, I understand it to be Nightcloud's attempt to make up for the ugly lack of affection and care that Crowfeather refuses to give. Is she handling it right? Who the heck am I to say? I'm not in her situation, but I do know that at least she openly cares for her child. No amount of understanding emotional distance will ever change the fact that Crowfeather neglects his son and has never once owned up for it. Understanding him better is not going to change the fact that he makes no real attempts to fix the crap he's started.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 6:24:27 GMT -5
Uh... what? Cuffing Hootpaw over the ears for spilling Clan secrets isn't abusive. Plenty of cats get their ears boxed in Warriors for saying something stupid or disrespectful. If she clawed him or struck him severely, sure, but she was telling him to shut up because he was running his mouth about how WindClan was starving - something apprentices aren't supposed to do to an enemy Clan. She still has no right to act that way. I see it as abuse. No one should be treated like that. She's also physically abusive to Crowfeather. You know, she literally dragged him away from Leafpool. Trash like that needs to go. Oh. You mean like how Crowfeather clawed and dragged Breezepelt and flung him away from a fight instead of helping him against an enemy clan cat? Who also happened to be the son of his former illegal mate? Hmmm. Trash like that's gotta go, right?
|
|
|
Post by Basement Cat on Jul 13, 2018 6:29:57 GMT -5
oi, it's nearly 6:30
all of you, chill, you're taking things personally
either that, or cause a flame war after it is noon and the sun shines its laser upon my face
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 6:32:29 GMT -5
oi, it's nearly 6:30 all of you, chill, you're taking things personally either that, or cause a flame war after it is noon and the sun shines its laser upon my face Timezones, my friend. 6:30 for you. Not for me. And not every debate is a flame war lol? Sleep my friend, this site doesn't have notifications to awaken you
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 9:51:48 GMT -5
Before Omen of the Stars, they were all just as bad as each other. A dysfunctional family. However, when Breezepelt turned to the murder, it's clear he's by far the worst now.
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 13, 2018 10:59:08 GMT -5
Yes, Nightcloud is trash that needs to go. Crowfeather isn't as bad as everyone says he is. I say, let's see what CT has to say about it.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 13, 2018 11:03:51 GMT -5
Nightcloud has her good side, but she also her bad side. I like that we're seeing more of the former, but—at least as far as the previous arcs are concerned—she's shown to be pretty mean even when Crowfeather and Leafpool aren't around. However, I do sympathize with her when it comes to her family; I don't need to like her to understand her.
Let's take a look at things from her perspective. The first time we actually see Nightcloud is when she's supporting Mudclaw. After he dies, I imagine things must've been tense in WindClan from then on, and Crowfeather trying to run away with Leafpool doesn't help matters either. Maybe she genuinely liked him, maybe she pitied him, maybe being his mate was her way of trying to bridge the gap between the Clans if there actually was tension afterwards (since Crowfeather was one of Onestar's supporters). Who knows? But the point is that she eventually becomes his mate and has a son with him.
And it fails.
Crowfeather becomes a distant father to his son and clearly still has feelings for Leafpool. Nightcloud knows this (or at least suspects it), otherwise she wouldn't be jealous every time Leafpool was near him. WindClan might also know about Feathertail, since he requested to be named after her, so imagine being not second-best, but third-best, and to cats he isn't even supposed to love in the first place! It's worse with Leafpool because she's a medicine cat. Nightcloud has clearly been trying to make the relationship work despite this, and is basically trying to act as both mother and father, though perhaps not in the most healthy manner.
And then Hollyleaf reveals the secret. Nightcloud must've been furious, and we all know how Breezepelt reacted to this. Of course she'd seem meaner in OotS, though it seems like she's gotten over it by AVoS (while Crowfeather is hostile towards everyone, and Breezepelt is a hypocrite).
The problem with Nightcloud is that we see so little of her, and when we do it's in different moods, so it's hard for us to see what she's really like, thus we interpret her differently. I for one see her as this she-cat who's been trying to make a difficult situation better for the sake of her son, but isn't handling it in a healthy manner, thus adding onto the dysfunctional dynamic that is her toxic family.
As far as TUG is concerned, it's full of contradictions, but that doesn't mean everything about it false. Nightcloud and Breezepelt's page for example hasn't been contradicted by any other book, and Crowfeather backs up the claim that Nightcloud was a bad influence on him, and Vicky said that Nightcloud had poisoned his mind. Maybe he was trying to deflect blame off of himself (even though he acknowledged that he should've done something sooner) and maybe it's author bias on Vicky's part, but until CT or maybe even a WindClan novella that takes place during PoT and OotS gives us something that contradicts this, I'm personally going to take it as canon. This doesn't mean I think Nightcloud was ill-intentioned, I just think this means she was trying to make sure Breezepelt wasn't getting his hopes up with Crowfeather and was probably blunt about it, but just ended up making things worse.
And speaking of TUG, it seems to me like people are interpreting the line that says Nightcloud tried to "make" Crowfeather fall in love with her in completely different ways, which of course leads to arguing: one side thinks it means that Nightcloud tried to force Crowfeather to love her, while the other side interprets it as her simply trying to make herself more desirable in hopes he'll fall in love with her. Given what we've seen in the main books as well as in LW, it seems to be the latter.
But I think we can all agree that Crowfeather and Nightcloud are better off without each other.
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 13, 2018 11:18:31 GMT -5
Honestly, Nightcloud would have been more interesting if she and Breezepelt were DF trainees and ran off or were exiled. I'd have so much more interest in her and probably wouldn't despise her in the way I do. We'd also get more insight of why she's so.. she-dogish. And it would have made a lot of sense to have been exiled along with Breezepelt for following the Dark Forest. Or have it to where she joins Breezepelt in exile but kind of switches sides during the battle when she sees that her former flame, Mudclaw, has no issue with StarClan. If the Erins had made that happen somehow, oof. I'd be more intrigued. Also I headcanon her reasons for this AU as Crowfeather not being there for her and her son like other more modern mates as well as StarClan choosing Onestar over Mudclaw.
|
|
|
Post by Sundance on Jul 13, 2018 11:30:23 GMT -5
She still has no right to act that way. I see it as abuse. No one should be treated like that. She's also physically abusive to Crowfeather. You know, she literally dragged him away from Leafpool. Trash like that needs to go. Oh. You mean like how Crowfeather clawed and dragged Breezepelt and flung him away from a fight instead of helping him against an enemy clan cat? Who also happened to be the son of his former illegal mate? Hmmm. Trash like that's gotta go, right? Breezepelt had physically attacked Lionblaze, then when Leafpool tried to break up the fight Breezepelt lashed out at her. A defenseless medicine cat. "Breezepelt’s lunge hit her square in the side. His claws tore her pelt as he dragged her to the ground. Another jet of blood sprayed the snow."At this point Crowfeather stepped in to grab his son, who was on a hormonal-and-rage-induced rampage and needed to be stopped. The fight with Lionblaze didn't need to happen anyway, it was a petty and pointless, so not only why would Crowfeather contribute in the attack, why would he then help Breezepelt go after Leafpool? That would be nothing short of appalling IMO.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 11:40:49 GMT -5
Yes, Nightcloud is trash that needs to go. Crowfeather isn't as bad as everyone says he is. I say, let's see what CT has to say about it. Biggest disagreement I've ever had, but okay, if that's your opinion, I'll respect it. And not to mention, once again it'll be Crowfeather who's focused on. Not the cats he treated like garbage. Sooooo.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 11:55:45 GMT -5
Then...why are we counting previous actions and remarks as canon then? In fact, forget any development for any background cat, clearly personality development doesn't exist for them. Nope. All those scenes of Berrynose being a good and mature father aren't canon, those scenes of Harestar helping Shadowclan with illness are not canon then. He's still the cat who trained in the Dark Forest. This statement makes 0 sense, I'm sorry. Maybe she, I don't know, has matured and developed? They're literally writing a SE about Crowfeather and Windclan, I doubt they've really written Nightcloud without remembering her personality previously. Which tells me that she clearly has compassion. And she does. She showed immense gratitude to Jayfeather when he tried to help dig Breezepelt out of the fallen badger set. She sent Crowfeather off on the trip to the mountains with affection and a desire for both her mate and son to come back safely. And with River of Fire, it's clear there were no orders forcing her to act kindly and help Riverclan. If there was, why was she saying "I'm sure Harestar would take in Riverclan cats" instead of "Harestar sent us to help you." Man, if she really was incapable of compassion, why would she offer anything instead of being begrudgingly annoyed and making it seem like the only reason she was helping a clan suffering from a fire was because she was following orders? So many people desire a Show, not Tell style of writing, and this scene, alaibet small, was exactly one of those moments. Nightcloud has always been a background character. Just because Crowfeather is more important plot wise, does not mean we can just ignore the small yet vital parts of development a background cat has. Nightcloud has compassion, and yeah, Crowfeather's not a dead fish, but he sure is a big jerk, and less compassionate than people think he is. What I mean is not 'said thing is canon because it's against said personality.' What I mean is that they probably just picked Nightcloud just for the patrol for filler cats. If she had really shown full character developement then she'd be asking cats if they are okay, helping cats over the bridge, you get the point. Instead she just did what everyone else did and said a remark ANY OTHER CHARACTER could say and her actions are something ANY OTHER CHARACTER would do. Replace Nightcloud's name with any other Windclan cat and it wouldn't be much different. When Jayfeather saved her kit OF COURSE she'd be grateful. He just saved her kit! And OF COURSE she sent Crowfeather and Breezepelt off for the journey with affection, she loves her kit and still wants Crowfeather to love her. I don't think Nightcloud is fully devoid of compassion like Crowfeather, but it's just frustrating when people rope in things that make sense from both a logical and writing standpoint as 'character development.' I find it unrealistic, is all, that a cat who is clearly a focal point of the next big Super Edition isn't going to be thought about. Your opinion is fine, but this is mine. This can be said for any character then, and it doesn't matter. She still helped Riverclan cats without orders, when she was clearly a cat who had accounts of being hostile before. She's a background character. We're not going to get in depth personality traits like more main characters. Thus, I'm going to follow the canon writing and see it as development, because that's what it is. I find it incredibly unfair since Crowfeather of course gets more POV and screentime, while Nightcloud is going to get crapped on because she gets no spotlight. It's annoying.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 12:01:45 GMT -5
I find it unrealistic, is all, that a cat who is clearly a focal point of the next big Super Edition isn't going to be thought about. Your opinion is fine, but this is mine. This can be said for any character then, and it doesn't matter. She still helped Riverclan cats without orders, when she was clearly a cat who had accounts of being hostile before. She's a background character. We're not going to get in depth personality traits like more main characters. Thus, I'm going to follow the canon writing and see it as development, because that's what it is. I find it incredibly unfair since Crowfeather of course gets more POV and screentime, while Nightcloud is going to get crapped on because she gets no spotlight. It's annoying. I do agree with you. Nightcloud's hostilities was probably caused by Crowfeather's neglect. And for some point Nightcloud was a secondary character. I'd like to see a SE on Breezepelt's childhood and what happened in Windclan that drove him to the Dark Forest in the first place. For real. We didn't need a Crowfeather Super Edition because I know for a fact it will gloss over his abusive behavior and make him seem like a victim while villianizing his mate. I'll be shocked if it doesn't. I usually have sympathy for the worst of cats, but Crowfeather doesn't deserve any of it. I understand him perfectly. I would have much rather had a Nightcloud and Breezepelt SE or a Harestar SE. I'm so sick of Crowfeather.
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 13, 2018 12:39:58 GMT -5
Yes, Nightcloud is trash that needs to go. Crowfeather isn't as bad as everyone says he is. I say, let's see what CT has to say about it. Biggest disagreement I've ever had, but okay, if that's your opinion, I'll respect it. And not to mention, once again it'll be Crowfeather who's focused on. Not the cats he treated like garbage. Sooooo. And she's treated him like garbage, soooo.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 13:06:34 GMT -5
Biggest disagreement I've ever had, but okay, if that's your opinion, I'll respect it. And not to mention, once again it'll be Crowfeather who's focused on. Not the cats he treated like garbage. Sooooo. And she's treated him like garbage, soooo. After he canonly ignored her and their son, mooned after Leafpool after he had supposedly chosen Windclan over her, does not show her a smidge of affection, treats their kit like trash. Honestly, if he was so "misunderstood and emotionally unstable" there's this thing called breaking up with your mate if you truly are not in love with her. Pretty hard to try and understand a tom who treats you like trash and neglects your son. Nah. She should just smile and purr at him, yeah?
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 13, 2018 13:18:34 GMT -5
And she's treated him like garbage, soooo. After he canonly ignored her and their son, mooned after Leafpool after he had supposedly chosen Windclan over her, does not show her a smidge of affection, treats their kit like trash. Honestly, if he was so "misunderstood and emotionally unstable" there's this thing called breaking up with your mate if you truly are not in love with her. Pretty hard to try and understand a tom who treats you like trash and neglects your son. Nah. She should just smile and purr at him, yeah? And is he forcing her to stay with him if he's really so bad? No. She stays.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 13:28:24 GMT -5
After he canonly ignored her and their son, mooned after Leafpool after he had supposedly chosen Windclan over her, does not show her a smidge of affection, treats their kit like trash. Honestly, if he was so "misunderstood and emotionally unstable" there's this thing called breaking up with your mate if you truly are not in love with her. Pretty hard to try and understand a tom who treats you like trash and neglects your son. Nah. She should just smile and purr at him, yeah? And is he forcing her to stay with him if he's really so bad? No. She stays. I wish she didn't. She could do sooo much better. I'm assuming she stayed because she cares? She sadly thinks she can get him to hold up his end of the relationship. After all, he was the one to ask her to be his mate. She clearly cared about him enough to say yes. And clearly cared when he went off to help the Tribe. Not to mention they had a kit to raise. Parents tend to try much harder to stay together when they have children.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 13, 2018 13:35:59 GMT -5
And she's treated him like garbage, soooo. After he canonly ignored her and their son, mooned after Leafpool after he had supposedly chosen Windclan over her, does not show her a smidge of affection, treats their kit like trash. Honestly, if he was so "misunderstood and emotionally unstable" there's this thing called breaking up with your mate if you truly are not in love with her. Pretty hard to try and understand a tom who treats you like trash and neglects your son. Nah. She should just smile and purr at him, yeah? This is really weird to me, honestly again mind-boggling. Crowfeather is the one that approached Nightcloud to be his mate, he's the one that used her to seem loyal in the eyes of his clan, he's the one that chose to have a kit with her??? I feel like people are completely ignoring this, it was his willing choice, Nightcloud didn't force him into any of it. Nightcloud wanted to be more desirable for Crowfeather when they were mates, that's perfectly normal if she wanted him to fall for her. Nightcloud wanted to have kits while they were mates, again perfectly normal. Nightcloud tried to be affectionate and loving to Crowfeather, even if he was downright cold to her, Nightcloud's actions toward Crowfeather is normal. Nightcloud being jealous of her mate, her equivalent of a husband, the father of her child, being revealed to have a controversial, and illegal in the cats universe, relationship with the equivalent of a medicinal religious figure, is perfectly a normal and realistic reaction. Especially considering they all find out at a gathering of all places, AND by one of his other children, in ANOTHER clan, that's like the two biggest taboos in one. The amount of shame their family must have received, oof. Crowfeather blatantly neglected his son, chided and scolded him over the littlest things, had little to no faith in him period, and even favored his other clan kits over him. Breezepelt was a kit, he was innocent, and Crowfeather had no right, NO RIGHT to treat him the way he did just because he wasn't Leafpool's kit, just because he didn't get the life he had. He literally uses his son to take jabs at Leafpool, like the border skirmish, or before that at a gathering, where he blatantly teaches Breezepelt to hate Half-Clan blood, like???? If Crowfeather is so unhappy with his life with Nightcloud and Breezepelt, he could easily just end their relationships and ties. If Nightcloud only wanted kits from Crowfeather, she could have easily broken up with him after she became pregnant or hen Breeze was born, when he became an apprentice, etc. She is the only one actually shown trying to make the relationship work, meanwhile Crow treated his son like a bother, didn't even let him say goodbye to his friends, all because he was in a rush to go see his first fling's grave, blatantly mourning over it, and his son finds out he has so much more emotion for a cat that's not his mother. Nightcloud did NOT deserve to be treated third best, and honestly, the way she acts is in reaction to how crappy of a mate Crowfeather is, and how crappy of a father he is on top of that too. People will do whatever they can to label her as the angry side girl while making Crow out to be some victim in all this when he was a willing participant from the start, and his neglect and actions led to the downward drama spiral. Not only was he a crappy mate to Nightcloud, but he treated Leafpool like trash too, springing his feelings on her, pressuring her to run away with him, trying to convince her not to go back even AFTER finding out about the badgers that later murder her mentor and other clanmates. When the secret got out he denied the three were his, threw her under the bus to save his own hide, he's lucky Nightcloud bothered defending him at the gathering. He did nothing but watch his sons maul one another, but suddenly only cares when Leaf is involved just so he could take another jab at her about leaving him. It literally takes the death of his daughter, and one of his sons beating in the other's head before he realizes how crappy of a cat he is. And EVEN THEN he still blamed his actions on another cat, he didn't own up to crap. And despite his apology to Leafpool? The very next installment we see him making fun of her dead father, and other ThunderClan cats, then finding it amusing when cats come to beg for a herb for their dying Clan. He doesn't deserve a loyal mate like Nightcloud, and Breezepelt should not have had to bend over backward just to impress his horrid father who was biased from the start of his birth. He doesn't deserve to be deputy, he has done nothing to deserve it. He's a hypocrite of a cat, and honestly the source of 90% of his OWN problems. But hey, lets ignore all of this in favor of Nightcloud, lets hate on the opposing she-cat in the situation, much easier, amirite?
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 13, 2018 13:40:01 GMT -5
After he canonly ignored her and their son, mooned after Leafpool after he had supposedly chosen Windclan over her, does not show her a smidge of affection, treats their kit like trash. Honestly, if he was so "misunderstood and emotionally unstable" there's this thing called breaking up with your mate if you truly are not in love with her. Pretty hard to try and understand a tom who treats you like trash and neglects your son. Nah. She should just smile and purr at him, yeah? This is really weird to me, honestly again mind-boggling. Crowfeather is the one that approached Nightcloud to be his mate, he's the one that used her to seem loyal in the eyes of his clan, he's the one that chose to have a kit with her??? I feel like people are completely ignoring this, it was his willing choice, Nightcloud didn't force him into any of it. Nightcloud wanted to be more desirable for Crowfeather when they were mates, that's perfectly normal if she wanted him to fall for her. Nightcloud wanted to have kits while they were mates, again perfectly normal. Nightcloud tried to be affectionate and loving to Crowfeather, even if he was downright cold to her, Nightcloud's actions toward Crowfeather is normal. Nightcloud being jealous of her mate, her equivalent of a husband, the father of her child, being revealed to have a controversial, and illegal in the cats universe, relationship with the equivalent of a medicinal religious figure, is perfectly a normal and realistic reaction. Especially considering they all find out at a gathering of all places, AND by one of his other children, in ANOTHER clan, that's like the two biggest taboos in one. The amount of shame their family must have received, oof. Crowfeather blatantly neglected his son, chided and scolded him over the littlest things, had little to no faith in him period, and even favored his other clan kits over him. Breezepelt was a kit, he was innocent, and Crowfeather had no right, NO RIGHT to treat him the way he did just because he wasn't Leafpool's kit, just because he didn't get the life he had. He literally uses his son to take jabs at Leafpool, like the border skirmish, or before that at a gathering, where he blatantly teaches Breezepelt to hate Half-Clan blood, like???? If Crowfeather is so unhappy with his life with Nightcloud and Breezepelt, he could easily just end their relationships and ties. If Nightcloud only wanted kits from Crowfeather, she could have easily broken up with him after she became pregnant or hen Breeze was born, when he became an apprentice, etc. She is the only one actually shown trying to make the relationship work, meanwhile Crow treated his son like a bother, didn't even let him say goodbye to his friends, all because he was in a rush to go see his first fling's grave, blatantly mourning over it, and his son finds out he has so much more emotion for a cat that's not his mother. Nightcloud did NOT deserve to be treated third best, and honestly, the way she acts is in reaction to how crappy of a mate Crowfeather is, and how crappy of a father he is on top of that too. People will do whatever they can to label her as the angry side girl while making Crow out to be some victim in all this when he was a willing participant from the start, and his neglect and actions led to the downward drama spiral. Not only was he a crappy mate to Nightcloud, but he treated Leafpool like trash too, springing his feelings on her, pressuring her to run away with him, trying to convince her not to go back even AFTER finding out about the badgers that later murder her mentor and other clanmates. When the secret got out he denied the three were his, threw her under the bus to save his own hide, he's lucky Nightcloud bothered defending him at the gathering. He did nothing but watch his sons maul one another, but suddenly only cares when Leaf is involved just so he could take another jab at her about leaving him. It literally takes the death of his daughter, and one of his sons beating in the other's head before he realizes how crappy of a cat he is. And EVEN THEN he still blamed his actions on another cat, he didn't own up to crap. And despite his apology to Leafpool? The very next installment we see him making fun of her dead father, and other ThunderClan cats, then finding it amusing when cats come to beg for a herb for their dying Clan. He doesn't deserve a loyal mate like Nightcloud, and Breezepelt should have had to bend over backward just to impress his horrid father who was biased from the start of his birth. He doesn't deserve to be deputy, he has done nothing to deserve it. He's a hypocrite of a cat, and honestly the source of 90% of his OWN problems. But hey, lets ignore all of this in favor of Nightcloud, lets hate on the opposing she-cat in the situation, much easier, amirite? Hold on, lemme find the ring, I'm marrying this post
|
|
|
Post by gonxkillua on Jul 13, 2018 13:45:59 GMT -5
Short answer: Yes, absolutely, we should feel bad for her. Long answer: Why SHOULD she try to understand Crowfeather? It's confirmed that he literally resented her because he didn't love her, even though he took her as a mate to prove his loyalty. She tries to get him to love her because he's her mate, which was his choice. It's not unreasonable to be hurt and insecure because the cat that is essentially her husband canonically hates her for reasons that are his own fault. He didn't have to take her as a mate, but he did so to show that he was loyal to WindClan. It's also implied that Breezepelt is older than the three. So take that as you will with how that lines up with the timeline of him being with Leafpool. Of course she coddles Breezpelt - she's his mother and literally the only cat who is shown to realize his awful relationship with his father and just how much that hurts him. Nightcloud defends Breezepelt from his scrutiny and is shown to stick up for and advocate for Breezepelt when he's young. How does defending her son make her "as bad" as the cat that neglected and arguably was emotionally abusive towards him? Also, I've got to say... I'm really tired of the ye olde "Nightcloud encouraged Breezepelt to hate Crowfeather" saying. There is no true in-text evidence to support this. The ONLY thing that could possibly hold it up is Crowfeather claiming it in the Dark Forest Battle, which just sounds like an abuser trying to deflect blame - something abusers LOVE to do. Of course Crowfeather isn't going to take responsibility for treating Breezepelt terribly... he doesn't think he's done anything wrong and his mate is an easy scapegoat. We do, however, have actual scenes WITHOUT Nightcloud where Breezepaw/pelt is shown to be hurt by how Crowfeather acts towards him. For example, when they journey to the Tribe, he's shown from every POV to want his father's approval and to be bitterly disappointed when he doesn't get it. Edit: The rest of this was cut off for some reason and I don't want to write it all out again, but if you look at late scenes in Outcast and early scenes in Eclipse, Breezepaw is shown from multiple perspectives to be upset with how Crowfeather acts and the POV characters frequently think to themselves that Crowfeather treats him badly with zero Nightcloud influence or presence. Her contribution to Outcast is telling Crowfeather to "take care" while he stares off into the distance. Also, of course Nightcloud was rude to Leafpool. She's essentially her mate's illegal mistress. Again, it's EXTREMELY LIKELY that Breezepelt is slightly older than three, implying Crowfeather was with them both at the same time. Nightcloud got the short end of the stick, and yet she gets blamed for everything because she doesn't have a likeable personality. I'm sorry but I'm not going to feel sorry for a mother who coddles her kit. You're also being unfair if you can't even try to understand Crowfeather. No, people SHOULDN'T have to feel sorry for her, because she's a terrible, possessive cat. She's constantly jealous of Leafpool, practically dragged Crowfeather away from her, and is a terrible influence to her son. I can't believe epoeple actually defend her crappy behavior as a mother. Not gonna change my mind. Not happening. I have no sympathy for this brat. Also I hate Crowfeather too, but you're being unfair for not understanding him either. To be fair she coddles him because he is abused and neglected my his father. Nightcloud has made some mistakes and she is not innocent but I don't think it's that bad that she wanted to make sure her son received some affection. She felt she to give him double the love because of Crowfeather. What so bad about that?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 14:01:52 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I'm not going to feel sorry for a mother who coddles her kit. You're also being unfair if you can't even try to understand Crowfeather. No, people SHOULDN'T have to feel sorry for her, because she's a terrible, possessive cat. She's constantly jealous of Leafpool, practically dragged Crowfeather away from her, and is a terrible influence to her son. I can't believe epoeple actually defend her crappy behavior as a mother. Not gonna change my mind. Not happening. I have no sympathy for this brat. Also I hate Crowfeather too, but you're being unfair for not understanding him either. To be fair she coddles him because he is abused and neglected my his father. Nightcloud has made some mistakes and she is not innocent but I don't think it's that bad that she wanted to make sure her son received some affection. She felt she to give him double the love because of Crowfeather. What so bad about that? No. I'm not changing my mind. I've already said I hate her because she's a bad influence to him. She's just as bad as Crowfeather. I don't like either characters. A mother needs to support their kid and give them positive examples and she's not doing that. She's being aggressive around him and possessive of him and Crowfeather and that's not good parenting. Not changing my mind. I understand why she became the way she did, but it's not an excuse.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 13, 2018 14:03:36 GMT -5
Then why make this thread and ask the question in the first place. It's clear you're not going to change your mind, lol. The answer is that some people obviously do feel bad for her, and understand her situation, and that's whether they still like her character or not.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 14:03:44 GMT -5
This is really weird to me, honestly again mind-boggling. Crowfeather is the one that approached Nightcloud to be his mate, he's the one that used her to seem loyal in the eyes of his clan, he's the one that chose to have a kit with her??? I feel like people are completely ignoring this, it was his willing choice, Nightcloud didn't force him into any of it. Nightcloud wanted to be more desirable for Crowfeather when they were mates, that's perfectly normal if she wanted him to fall for her. Nightcloud wanted to have kits while they were mates, again perfectly normal. Nightcloud tried to be affectionate and loving to Crowfeather, even if he was downright cold to her, Nightcloud's actions toward Crowfeather is normal. Nightcloud being jealous of her mate, her equivalent of a husband, the father of her child, being revealed to have a controversial, and illegal in the cats universe, relationship with the equivalent of a medicinal religious figure, is perfectly a normal and realistic reaction. Especially considering they all find out at a gathering of all places, AND by one of his other children, in ANOTHER clan, that's like the two biggest taboos in one. The amount of shame their family must have received, oof. Crowfeather blatantly neglected his son, chided and scolded him over the littlest things, had little to no faith in him period, and even favored his other clan kits over him. Breezepelt was a kit, he was innocent, and Crowfeather had no right, NO RIGHT to treat him the way he did just because he wasn't Leafpool's kit, just because he didn't get the life he had. He literally uses his son to take jabs at Leafpool, like the border skirmish, or before that at a gathering, where he blatantly teaches Breezepelt to hate Half-Clan blood, like???? If Crowfeather is so unhappy with his life with Nightcloud and Breezepelt, he could easily just end their relationships and ties. If Nightcloud only wanted kits from Crowfeather, she could have easily broken up with him after she became pregnant or hen Breeze was born, when he became an apprentice, etc. She is the only one actually shown trying to make the relationship work, meanwhile Crow treated his son like a bother, didn't even let him say goodbye to his friends, all because he was in a rush to go see his first fling's grave, blatantly mourning over it, and his son finds out he has so much more emotion for a cat that's not his mother. Nightcloud did NOT deserve to be treated third best, and honestly, the way she acts is in reaction to how crappy of a mate Crowfeather is, and how crappy of a father he is on top of that too. People will do whatever they can to label her as the angry side girl while making Crow out to be some victim in all this when he was a willing participant from the start, and his neglect and actions led to the downward drama spiral. Not only was he a crappy mate to Nightcloud, but he treated Leafpool like trash too, springing his feelings on her, pressuring her to run away with him, trying to convince her not to go back even AFTER finding out about the badgers that later murder her mentor and other clanmates. When the secret got out he denied the three were his, threw her under the bus to save his own hide, he's lucky Nightcloud bothered defending him at the gathering. He did nothing but watch his sons maul one another, but suddenly only cares when Leaf is involved just so he could take another jab at her about leaving him. It literally takes the death of his daughter, and one of his sons beating in the other's head before he realizes how crappy of a cat he is. And EVEN THEN he still blamed his actions on another cat, he didn't own up to crap. And despite his apology to Leafpool? The very next installment we see him making fun of her dead father, and other ThunderClan cats, then finding it amusing when cats come to beg for a herb for their dying Clan. He doesn't deserve a loyal mate like Nightcloud, and Breezepelt should have had to bend over backward just to impress his horrid father who was biased from the start of his birth. He doesn't deserve to be deputy, he has done nothing to deserve it. He's a hypocrite of a cat, and honestly the source of 90% of his OWN problems. But hey, lets ignore all of this in favor of Nightcloud, lets hate on the opposing she-cat in the situation, much easier, amirite? Hold on, lemme find the ring, I'm marrying this post Lmao have to admit this post made my afternoon.
|
|
Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
|
Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Jul 13, 2018 14:07:01 GMT -5
And is he forcing her to stay with him if he's really so bad? No. She stays. I wish she didn't. She could do sooo much better. I'm assuming she stayed because she cares? She sadly thinks she can get him to hold up his end of the relationship. After all, he was the one to ask her to be his mate. She clearly cared about him enough to say yes. And clearly cared when he went off to help the Tribe. Not to mention they had a kit to raise. Parents tend to try much harder to stay together when they have children. Then that's on her if she's truly unhappy. And maybe Crowfeather sees something in her. I'd wish he dumped her, though. She should have been with Mudclaw.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 14:11:01 GMT -5
Imo Nightcloud needs to love herself before getting into another relationship, but that's just me. She really does need to dump Crowfeather though.
|
|