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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 13, 2018 14:13:31 GMT -5
I wish she didn't. She could do sooo much better. I'm assuming she stayed because she cares? She sadly thinks she can get him to hold up his end of the relationship. After all, he was the one to ask her to be his mate. She clearly cared about him enough to say yes. And clearly cared when he went off to help the Tribe. Not to mention they had a kit to raise. Parents tend to try much harder to stay together when they have children. Then that's on her if she's truly unhappy. And maybe Crowfeather sees something in her. I'd wish he dumped her, though. She should have been with Mudclaw. She is the one actually trying to make the relationship that Crowfeather initiated, work out. She tried to be a loving mate to him, and he's nothing but cold to her. And when he neglected and verbally abused their son, she tried to work double as hard to make her son happy. She was the one trying to keep their family together, so honestly, she deserves better. She is a loyal WindClan cat, and also a loyal mate, who even defended Crowfeather at the gathering. Imo, Crow got too good of a cat as a mate but is too dumb to realize how good he had it. I guess in a way it's kinda like Graystripe and Millie's situation, but Millie is actually a horrible mother. I personally do agree that Mudclaw and Nightcloud should have been mates, they seem closer in age, had similar views, and if Mudstar had happened, I'm sure this would have been the route. At least Mudclaw wouldn't have been a crappy father, considering how proud he is of himself, his clan, and actually had some compassion for others. Imo Crow doesn't deserve a mate, and if he hates Clan life so much he should have stayed in the mountains, or not come back when Leafpool did. It's a shame, because his apprentice years were probably when he was best written as a character, but his romance arcs have pretty much ruined him, and solidified him as one of the worst parents in the Warriors series. I guess he's like WindClan's Dovewing when it comes to romances. Except Dovewing never flipped the record of three different relationships.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 13, 2018 14:18:43 GMT -5
Imo Nightcloud needs to love herself before getting into another relationship, but that's just me. She really does need to dump Crowfeather though. I'm personally hoping in CT that they're no longer together, honestly, if I were in her shoes, I wouldn't have the patience to put up with all that and dump Crow right after the gathering. Leave him to fend the heat by himself. I don't think Nightcloud will get a mate again, she's already older than Crow, and there's a time when she-cats just stop having kits, I mean unless you're Brightheart, lol. But it would have been nice if she could have found a cat that would have loved her as much as she loved them, would have put her as their number 1, and would have been a good father figure to Breezepelt. I guess the best she can do right now is be there for her grandkits, and hope that she doesn't get demonize in CT, and there's nothing but excuses for Crowfeather's neglect.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 15:48:16 GMT -5
Hopefully this argument will be settled once “Crowfeather’s Trial” comes out.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 14, 2018 0:41:31 GMT -5
Honestly, people are being unfair for looking at just Nightcloud's PoV. If people are going to understand her, despite being a terrible influence, then you have to understand Crowfeather. While I'm not justifying him (and people better not say that I am, because I'm not) I understand why Crowfeather is terrible. My theory is that he fell for Feathertail too fast at such a young age to develop his own personality. When Feathertail died he still didn't have time to develop his own personality, instead he grieved for her for moons. In a way he used Leafpool by transferring his feelings onto her shortly after and he thought they were going to be together. But when she broke up this ruined his reputation. Crowfeather became bitter because of this and knew he had to do something to save his reputation and this is why he turned to Nightcloud. She was one of the few cats who still looked up to him and he decided to take this opportunity. No one knows who offered the relationship first, so we really can't say who did. Hopefully his own super edition clears this up. But what I'm trying to say is that he screwed up. Big time. And because of this he's emotionally messed up. He became bitter and he was really hurt that Leafpool left him when he thought he had the second chance of happiness but his Clan probably judged him and he knew he had to work hard to save his reputation. So he went with Nightcloud and they both had Breezepelt. I don't think Crowfeather was that bad in PoT; it was in OotS when he was worse. But honestly, people need to understand that Nightcloud is no better. She's constantly jealous of Leafpool, and when he's around her she literally drags him away using her claws (if people are going to call Crowfeather abusive, why don't they aim at Nightcloud for this when she doesn't treat him right either?) she coddles her son (which isn't good parenting either, I really don't get why people aren't bothered by this) and she's also aggressive, which also isn't good parenting. These cats are so bad to each other that it's becoming known to the Clans outside of WindClan that they don't like each other. I really don't get why people try to justify Nightcloud's own parenting when she's actually a bad influence. All these traits Nightcloud shows, are not good. Breezepelt never had a positive influence and this is why he went to the Dark Forest. People are being extremely unfair to Crowfeather by not trying to understand him. Maybe people should try to see both sides instead of just Nightcloud's, because from what I'm seeing people aren't understanding him and blaming it all on him when both parents are just as fault. She could've said no when he offered (or she did, hell if I know) to become his mate. She tried to make him love her and that's not right. She's just a terrible cat, imo, and this is why I can't feel sorry for her. Also fans better not say I'm babying Crowfeather when I'm not. I've been accused of babying characters like Lionblaze and I really hope this isn't going to happen here. Cause I actually hate Crowfeather, but Nightcloud more honestly, and I'm never going to change my mind. She's a bad influence. I don't know why people justify this. Seriously... what? It's confirmed that he took a mate in WindClan to prove his loyalty. That is canon. He used Nightcloud to prove his loyalty. And like I said, Breezepelt is OLDER than the three. Put those things together and you can infer that Crowfeather was likely with Nightcloud while he was seeing Leafpool.Crowfeather was not good in Po3. He simply wasn't. Reread Outcast and Eclipse. Every cat with a POV thinks about how he scorns Breezepaw, how he's nothing like Brambleclaw is as a father, how Breezepaw desperately wants his approval, etc. It is literally canon that he has a bad relationship with his son and this is reinforced consistently. Exactly what is there to understand? Yeah, losing Feathertail hurt him. I don't disagree. Does that justify being an abusive father and canonically hating the mate you took to prove your loyalty? No. It doesn't. He has plenty of opportunities to encourage his son, and never does. We are shown the opposite of this multiple times. Nightcloud never encourages Breezepelt to hate his father. There is no evidence to support this. The only time it's even suggested is in the Dark Forest battle, when Crowfeather deflects the blame for his bad relationship with Breezepelt onto Nightcloud, even though canon scenes show him scorning or ignoring Breezepelt without Nightcloud present. Nightcloud didn't tell Breezepelt to run off to the Dark Forest. She was not a "bad influence". She stuck up for him when his father doubted him openly and encouraged him when Breezepelt believed his entire Clan hated him. I guess if we're going to call that coddling and by extension say coddling is horrible an inexcusable, Millie is also a terrible mother who deserves no sympathy. Breezepelt didn't go to the Dark Forest because of a lack of good influence. He went because of his horrible relationship with his father and his belief that his Clanmates wanted to get rid of him. He specifically talks about wanting revenge on Crowfeather specifically in the Dark Forest for never caring about him, and the Dark Forest uses this to manipulate and encourage him. This is not Nightcloud's doing, and she doesn't deserve blame for it over any of the other cats who should have been role models for him - say, Whitetail (his mentor) or Onestar (his leader). HOW is she a terrible cat? Crowfeather chose her as a mate to prove his loyalty, and she wanted her mate to love her. Why is she "terrible" for that one thing? It really sounds like you're grasping at straws to find reasons to blindly hate her.
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Post by hissingwillows on Jul 14, 2018 0:47:48 GMT -5
Uh... what? Cuffing Hootpaw over the ears for spilling Clan secrets isn't abusive. Plenty of cats get their ears boxed in Warriors for saying something stupid or disrespectful. If she clawed him or struck him severely, sure, but she was telling him to shut up because he was running his mouth about how WindClan was starving - something apprentices aren't supposed to do to an enemy Clan. She still has no right to act that way. I see it as abuse. No one should be treated like that. She's also physically abusive to Crowfeather. You know, she literally dragged him away from Leafpool. Trash like that needs to go. She "literally dragged him away" in the midst of an already extremely escalated fight. There is no other scene where she "physically abuses" him, but if we want to call every fight in warriors physical abuse, you're going to have a LONG list of abusive characters in Warriors. Getting cuffed over the ears is what happens throughout the series, over and over, to apprentices or kits who act disrespectful, out of line, or just stupidly. It's not like getting slapped across the face or being hit with a belt... his ears got swiped at. I'm a victim of abuse and I take abuse pretty seriously (hence why I personally get pretty heated when it comes to excusing Crowfeather's actions and putting blame on Nightcloud), but a cat having their ears boxed for revealing their Clan is weak isn't abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2018 6:00:35 GMT -5
Honestly, people are being unfair for looking at just Nightcloud's PoV. If people are going to understand her, despite being a terrible influence, then you have to understand Crowfeather. While I'm not justifying him (and people better not say that I am, because I'm not) I understand why Crowfeather is terrible. My theory is that he fell for Feathertail too fast at such a young age to develop his own personality. When Feathertail died he still didn't have time to develop his own personality, instead he grieved for her for moons. In a way he used Leafpool by transferring his feelings onto her shortly after and he thought they were going to be together. But when she broke up this ruined his reputation. Crowfeather became bitter because of this and knew he had to do something to save his reputation and this is why he turned to Nightcloud. She was one of the few cats who still looked up to him and he decided to take this opportunity. No one knows who offered the relationship first, so we really can't say who did. Hopefully his own super edition clears this up. But what I'm trying to say is that he screwed up. Big time. And because of this he's emotionally messed up. He became bitter and he was really hurt that Leafpool left him when he thought he had the second chance of happiness but his Clan probably judged him and he knew he had to work hard to save his reputation. So he went with Nightcloud and they both had Breezepelt. I don't think Crowfeather was that bad in PoT; it was in OotS when he was worse. But honestly, people need to understand that Nightcloud is no better. She's constantly jealous of Leafpool, and when he's around her she literally drags him away using her claws (if people are going to call Crowfeather abusive, why don't they aim at Nightcloud for this when she doesn't treat him right either?) she coddles her son (which isn't good parenting either, I really don't get why people aren't bothered by this) and she's also aggressive, which also isn't good parenting. These cats are so bad to each other that it's becoming known to the Clans outside of WindClan that they don't like each other. I really don't get why people try to justify Nightcloud's own parenting when she's actually a bad influence. All these traits Nightcloud shows, are not good. Breezepelt never had a positive influence and this is why he went to the Dark Forest. People are being extremely unfair to Crowfeather by not trying to understand him. Maybe people should try to see both sides instead of just Nightcloud's, because from what I'm seeing people aren't understanding him and blaming it all on him when both parents are just as fault. She could've said no when he offered (or she did, hell if I know) to become his mate. She tried to make him love her and that's not right. She's just a terrible cat, imo, and this is why I can't feel sorry for her. Also fans better not say I'm babying Crowfeather when I'm not. I've been accused of babying characters like Lionblaze and I really hope this isn't going to happen here. Cause I actually hate Crowfeather, but Nightcloud more honestly, and I'm never going to change my mind. She's a bad influence. I don't know why people justify this. Seriously... what? It's confirmed that he took a mate in WindClan to prove his loyalty. That is canon. He used Nightcloud to prove his loyalty. And like I said, Breezepelt is OLDER than the three. Put those things together and you can infer that Crowfeather was likely with Nightcloud while he was seeing Leafpool.Crowfeather was not good in Po3. He simply wasn't. Reread Outcast and Eclipse. Every cat with a POV thinks about how he scorns Breezepaw, how he's nothing like Brambleclaw is as a father, how Breezepaw desperately wants his approval, etc. It is literally canon that he has a bad relationship with his son and this is reinforced consistently. Exactly what is there to understand? Yeah, losing Feathertail hurt him. I don't disagree. Does that justify being an abusive father and canonically hating the mate you took to prove your loyalty? No. It doesn't. He has plenty of opportunities to encourage his son, and never does. We are shown the opposite of this multiple times. Nightcloud never encourages Breezepelt to hate his father. There is no evidence to support this. The only time it's even suggested is in the Dark Forest battle, when Crowfeather deflects the blame for his bad relationship with Breezepelt onto Nightcloud, even though canon scenes show him scorning or ignoring Breezepelt without Nightcloud present. Nightcloud didn't tell Breezepelt to run off to the Dark Forest. She was not a "bad influence". She stuck up for him when his father doubted him openly and encouraged him when Breezepelt believed his entire Clan hated him. I guess if we're going to call that coddling and by extension say coddling is horrible an inexcusable, Millie is also a terrible mother who deserves no sympathy. Breezepelt didn't go to the Dark Forest because of a lack of good influence. He went because of his horrible relationship with his father and his belief that his Clanmates wanted to get rid of him. He specifically talks about wanting revenge on Crowfeather specifically in the Dark Forest for never caring about him, and the Dark Forest uses this to manipulate and encourage him. This is not Nightcloud's doing, and she doesn't deserve blame for it over any of the other cats who should have been role models for him - say, Whitetail (his mentor) or Onestar (his leader). HOW is she a terrible cat? Crowfeather chose her as a mate to prove his loyalty, and she wanted her mate to love her. Why is she "terrible" for that one thing? It really sounds like you're grasping at straws to find reasons to blindly hate her. I've already said I'm not changing my mind. Honestly I don't get how you can't understand that her negative examples are not good parenting. Maybe it's because I was raised with a positive family and that's why I hate her. She isn't doing it right. I kindly ask you to not tell me what to do with books because I really dislike feeling controlled and pressured. Maybe it's not your intention but I am quite sensitive when people tell me what to do. I'm going to ask a mod to lock this thread because people bombarding me with debates is getting overwhelming for me despite saying I'm not changing my mind. I hope people understand it at this point. My notifications have been disabled.
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Post by Sand on Jul 14, 2018 9:37:29 GMT -5
Locked per request.
Also, I tend to wonder how people can debate for 3 days straight. Dedication, folks; dedication.
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