|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 11:20:31 GMT -5
I think people are allowed to dislike Dovewing because of her treatment of another cat who did not deserve to be treated like that. I’m sorry, but criticism of someone treating a partner they willingly chose to be with is not some ploy to bash a character. After all, we dislike how Rainflower treated Crookedstar. We dislike how Russetfur treated Berrynose when he was a kit. Calling out a character’s actions is justified, especially in a thread that specifically asks if we think Dovewing was fair to him, which she 100 percent was not. If I had a partner who treated me like she treated Bumblestripe, I know I would be way more furious than he ever was. Nobody is out here saying they don’t like Dovewing, because I’m sure a ton of people commenting do like her, but in this specific instance, she was an awful cat who treated another cat who never once deserved it like garbage. I never said people aren't allowed to dislike her for that, nor that calling out Dovewing's behaviour isn't justified in this case. I just interpreted the tone of many of these posts as including a dislike of Dovewing, and, being a Dovewing fan, I may have let my emotions get the better of myself. I'm sorry but I'm not the greatest at picking up tone through text and that's kind of a hard thing to change.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 29, 2022 11:47:17 GMT -5
I think people are allowed to dislike Dovewing because of her treatment of another cat who did not deserve to be treated like that. I’m sorry, but criticism of someone treating a partner they willingly chose to be with is not some ploy to bash a character. After all, we dislike how Rainflower treated Crookedstar. We dislike how Russetfur treated Berrynose when he was a kit. Calling out a character’s actions is justified, especially in a thread that specifically asks if we think Dovewing was fair to him, which she 100 percent was not. If I had a partner who treated me like she treated Bumblestripe, I know I would be way more furious than he ever was. Nobody is out here saying they don’t like Dovewing, because I’m sure a ton of people commenting do like her, but in this specific instance, she was an awful cat who treated another cat who never once deserved it like garbage. I never said people aren't allowed to dislike her for that, nor that calling out Dovewing's behaviour isn't justified in this case. I just interpreted the tone of many of these posts as including a dislike of Dovewing, and, being a Dovewing fan, I may have let my emotions get the better of myself. I'm sorry but I'm not the greatest at picking up tone through text and that's kind of a hard thing to change. It’s ok. I do understand how it can come off as bashing. If anything, I can recognize that while it infuriates me, Dovewing’s character has always been flawed, so it’s not as if it’s out of character for her to be bad at communicating and hurting cats along the way. In this instance, she was very unfair and harsh to him, but that doesn’t mean she’s some monster or horrible cat either. I only wish she didn’t need to drag Bumblestripe along for her to realize what choice to make, because it wasn’t fair at all and it’s not fair to any partner who tries to be what a partner is expected to be in a relationship.
|
|
|
Post by evilwizard on Jul 29, 2022 15:51:16 GMT -5
i mean she made it pretty obvious she wasn't interested. also that scene where he starts talking to her about having kits at purdy's funeral was enough for me to think it was justified.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 29, 2022 20:32:17 GMT -5
i mean she made it pretty obvious she wasn't interested. also that scene where he starts talking to her about having kits at purdy's funeral was enough for me to think it was justified. it's not justified. the one thing people harp on bumblestripe for happened way after the inintial bad treatment dovewing gave to him back in OotS (which is what people r talking about). before the purdy comment, he was simply trying to get to know her. he wasn't being disrespectful and invading her personal space like people think. simply asking ur crush to hang out or get to know ech other better isn't an evil act like people make it out ot be lol. it's dovewing who didn't communicate her feelings properly. this is why people dont like how she treated him in OotS. she should have been polite and considerate, and just be truthful way earlier that she was never going to be interested in him back. but no, she used him and dragged him along for ages, because he was convenient. she knew he was already into her, so it was easy to manipulate and use him for her own benefit, even though internally she kept unfairly comparing him to another man that she was ACTUALLY interestedin. she was completely awful. was bumblestripe's horrible timing with the purdy incident justified? no. as much as i am defensive over him, that was just awful timing to ask to consider getting back together. him asking isn't the problem. it's the timing. was dovewing's treatment of bumblestripe pre-purdy incident justified? no. she was being a jerk to him bc he didnt live up to her high standards of tigerheart
|
|
|
Post by Aqua on Jul 29, 2022 20:59:13 GMT -5
Let's not forget that Bumblestripe asked Dovewing for kits 2 years after they've broken up. Dovewing handled the situation terribly, but she made it clear she's not interested in him. And the dude is still asking for her babies 2 years later. That's pretty creepy.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 29, 2022 22:19:32 GMT -5
Let's not forget that Bumblestripe asked Dovewing for kits 2 years after they've broken up. Dovewing handled the situation terribly, but she made it clear she's not interested in him. And the dude is still asking for her babies 2 years later. That's pretty creepy. "will u have my children" is a roundabout way of asking if she wants to CONSIDER getting back together with him. it's not as bad as people make it out to be. its literally just the timing that is wrong. he was basically like "hey i realized we could die any day and i want to try again at being with u bc i still love u. do u want to consider getting back together and having a chance at a future together?" just bc it wasnt written that way, thats still how i choose to interpret that scene.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 22:26:35 GMT -5
Let's not forget that Bumblestripe asked Dovewing for kits 2 years after they've broken up. Dovewing handled the situation terribly, but she made it clear she's not interested in him. And the dude is still asking for her babies 2 years later. That's pretty creepy. "will u have my children" is a roundabout way of asking if she wants to CONSIDER getting back together with him. it's not as bad as people make it out to be. its literally just the timing that is wrong. he was basically like "hey i realized we could die any day and i want to try again at being with u bc i still love u. do u want to consider getting back together and having a chance at a future together?" just bc it wasnt written that way, thats still how i choose to interpret that scene. "Will you have my children" is exactly what it sounds like. You don't ask your ex if they want to consider getting back together by immediately asking if they want to have your babies. If Bumblestripe actually just meant to innocently ask if Dovewing's still interested, he seriously needs to choose his words better.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 29, 2022 22:53:06 GMT -5
"will u have my children" is a roundabout way of asking if she wants to CONSIDER getting back together with him. it's not as bad as people make it out to be. its literally just the timing that is wrong. he was basically like "hey i realized we could die any day and i want to try again at being with u bc i still love u. do u want to consider getting back together and having a chance at a future together?" just bc it wasnt written that way, thats still how i choose to interpret that scene. "Will you have my children" is exactly what it sounds like. You don't ask your ex if they want to consider getting back together by immediately asking if they want to have your babies. If Bumblestripe actually just meant to innocently ask if Dovewing's still interested, he seriously needs to choose his words better. i also wanna blame the writers. depending on who is writing, they will make bumblestripe awful just to prop up tigerheart and force readers to root for tiger x dove. really disingenuous. just gonna have to agree to disagree bc i will always defend bumblestripe when it comes to this bc too many people make him out to be a devil when he isn't.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 23:00:07 GMT -5
"Will you have my children" is exactly what it sounds like. You don't ask your ex if they want to consider getting back together by immediately asking if they want to have your babies. If Bumblestripe actually just meant to innocently ask if Dovewing's still interested, he seriously needs to choose his words better. i also wanna blame the writers. depending on who is writing, they will make bumblestripe awful just to prop up tigerheart and force readers to root for tiger x dove. really disingenuous. just gonna have to agree to disagree bc i will always defend bumblestripe when it comes to this bc too many people make him out to be a devil when he isn't. Yea, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I hate Bumblestripe and am a full supporter of TigerDove but I respect your opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 30, 2022 15:26:58 GMT -5
Here's his exact words for context:
His timing is weird and he's awkward, which is a consistent trait of his, but I wouldn't say this is creepy. He had unresolved feelings for Dovewing and was still confused why they had broken up, and was basically saying, "Life is short, I think we're worth another go, I really want to settle down and you're the only cat I can imagine doing that with." Asking for a re-consideration of what could be. Not "HEY EX LETS HAVE BABIES NOW".
Maybe it's just a personal background thing? Like where I come from, that sort of forwardness isn't seen as creepy, it's actually appreciated. The dude is being upfront immediately about where he wants the potential relationship to go so you know what you might sign up for. I guess I can see how some people would find that uncomfortably forward (or "demanding") considering the casualness of current dating culture, but I don't think its an objectively creepy thing to say.
|
|
Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
|
Post by Cloudstorm on Jul 30, 2022 16:47:18 GMT -5
I think it’s crucial to remember that Bumblestripe wasn’t just out of blue asking Dovewing to become mates an have kits after 2+ years of being broken up, without any prior conversation or discussion about reconsideration of re-entering a relationship together. And does seem some people might be cherry-picking small chunks of narrative and attaching hyperbolic interpretations and meaning to them, while neglecting(in some cases downright evading or sidestepping, which has always been a recurring theme with debates on Dovewing) the complete context of the situation.
here’s right before they leave for the patrol.
Which considering Bumblestripe’s upfront and direct nature, I’d say is clearly indicative that the subject of them becoming mates again has been broached upon in conversation. And while it does say Dovewing was careful not to be too encouraging, that’s a highly subjective statement, and also being that Dovewing is well-known for her lack of communication skills, pretty hard to stipulate what that would mean to her. But at the very least encouraged him some, and didn’t close the door.
and heres after their mini kerfuffle during the hunt.
Which is a very imperative, as it heavily implies and reinforces the first quote, that not only have they spoken about becoming mates again, but that Dovewing has also told him she consider it, but hasn’t given a conclusive answer yet. And it’s very evident throughtout the hunt that Bumblestripe is fervently attempting to impress her and encourage her to say yes.
and of course the infamous scene that Saint Ambrosef has quoted above, and given exquisite commentary that beautifully summarizes my thoughts on its text. While the timing on his speech is unfavorable, a little awkward, could be worded better. However, he probably wasn’t intending to have the conversation during such turmoil, and is quite transparent that he wanted to have it while they were on patrol, in the privacy of their own company were no one could eavesdrop, though she kept cutting him off. It might of made him feel rushed, which could of possibly influenced his speech.
anyways, there’s nothing creepy or stalking or malicious about what he said. It’s genuine, heartfelt, straightforward and upfront, which is a pretty rock solid foundation for a good partnership: Honesty. Might have became a little too spurned or persistent with his effort based off of mixed signals and maybes perhaps, but that doesn’t make him creepy. a mite overconfident in his pursuit, but not malicious.
think some people in todays culture be a little bit too careless with associating a male being Competent, blunt and upfront, not a pushover with “toxic masculinity” imo.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 17:25:34 GMT -5
Here's his exact words for context: His timing is weird and he's awkward, which is a consistent trait of his, but I wouldn't say this is creepy. He had unresolved feelings for Dovewing and was still confused why they had broken up, and was basically saying, "Life is short, I think we're worth another go, I really want to settle down and you're the only cat I can imagine doing that with." Asking for a re-consideration of what could be. Not "HEY EX LETS HAVE BABIES NOW". Maybe it's just a personal background thing? Like where I come from, that sort of forwardness isn't seen as creepy, it's actually appreciated. The dude is being upfront immediately about where he wants the potential relationship to go so you know what you might sign up for. I guess I can see how some people would find that uncomfortably forward (or "demanding") considering the casualness of current dating culture, but I don't think its an objectively creepy thing to say. Yeah, I'd say that whether or not his forwardness was creepy is really all up to personal interpretation. Personally I'd be really creeped out if I had an ex who asked that (which is likely influenced by my asexuality) but I can see how it could go either way for other people. But as I read the quote you gave, I noticed another problem I have with Bumblestripe's words, which I've highlighted above. I really don't like how Bumblestripe is bringing up how having kits would benefit the Clan; ultimately, Dovewing's choice to have kits should be for herself, not for the Clan. Whether or not it's his intention (I'd like to believe it isn't), it just seems borderline... manipulative?? I don't know if I'm just overanalyzing this or something, but it just seems really creepy to me.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Jul 30, 2022 18:23:21 GMT -5
Here's his exact words for context: His timing is weird and he's awkward, which is a consistent trait of his, but I wouldn't say this is creepy. He had unresolved feelings for Dovewing and was still confused why they had broken up, and was basically saying, "Life is short, I think we're worth another go, I really want to settle down and you're the only cat I can imagine doing that with." Asking for a re-consideration of what could be. Not "HEY EX LETS HAVE BABIES NOW". Maybe it's just a personal background thing? Like where I come from, that sort of forwardness isn't seen as creepy, it's actually appreciated. The dude is being upfront immediately about where he wants the potential relationship to go so you know what you might sign up for. I guess I can see how some people would find that uncomfortably forward (or "demanding") considering the casualness of current dating culture, but I don't think its an objectively creepy thing to say. Yeah, I'd say that whether or not his forwardness was creepy is really all up to personal interpretation. Personally I'd be really creeped out if I had an ex who asked that (which is likely influenced by my asexuality) but I can see how it could go either way for other people. But as I read the quote you gave, I noticed another problem I have with Bumblestripe's words, which I've highlighted above. I really don't like how Bumblestripe is bringing up how having kits would benefit the Clan; ultimately, Dovewing's choice to have kits should be for herself, not for the Clan. Whether or not it's his intention (I'd like to believe it isn't), it just seems borderline... manipulative?? I don't know if I'm just overanalyzing this or something, but it just seems really creepy to me. I can see where the discomfort comes from, though I do personally interpret it as him just wanting to see if there was even a chance, seeing as he was told nothing of why she broke it off in the first place. In this moment, I see a different form of coping with grief, whereas Bumblestripe genuinely is reminded of how short life is and how there could maybe be a chance for something happier to come out of it. Of course, Dovewing is coping in the opposite way in this instance which will inevitably cause bad friction. That, and we have to remember that most if not all of the Clans do have a cultural connection to viewing kits as signs of growth. Squirrelflight alludes to it in her desire to have kits, Berrynose talks about how the Clan would be stronger with more kits after Bramblestar’s Storm, to which Bramblestar sees that as a sign of growth for Berrynose to be thinking that way. At gatherings, leaders always announce when new kits are born that the Clan thrives because of it. Now, I don’t disagree that Dovewing has no obligation to have kits if she doesn’t want to. Nobody should. But, I do see how a majority of the Clan wouldn’t view that notion as a bad or incorrect thing either. It was bad wording at a bad time between two cats that were both grieving in different ways, and it was when she finally gave that firm communication for the first time that he never asked or offered the notion again, which is what the response should be. It’s just a shame he had to find out why she dumped him without an explanation by her walking into camp with kits and the Shadowclan leader as her mate.
|
|
|
Post by Aqua on Jul 30, 2022 22:16:32 GMT -5
Here's his exact words for context: His timing is weird and he's awkward, which is a consistent trait of his, but I wouldn't say this is creepy. He had unresolved feelings for Dovewing and was still confused why they had broken up, and was basically saying, "Life is short, I think we're worth another go, I really want to settle down and you're the only cat I can imagine doing that with." Asking for a re-consideration of what could be. Not "HEY EX LETS HAVE BABIES NOW". Maybe it's just a personal background thing? Like where I come from, that sort of forwardness isn't seen as creepy, it's actually appreciated. The dude is being upfront immediately about where he wants the potential relationship to go so you know what you might sign up for. I guess I can see how some people would find that uncomfortably forward (or "demanding") considering the casualness of current dating culture, but I don't think its an objectively creepy thing to say. reading this quote from the scene.. Bumblestripe was not that bad. But I understand that people are weirded out from him asking for her kits 2 years after they've been apart, when Dovewing made it obvious she didn't like him back. Honestly. I wouldn't mind a novella on Bumblestripe. A PoV on him would be nice to read about.
|
|
Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
|
Post by Cloudstorm on Jul 31, 2022 2:42:45 GMT -5
Thunder Said.
Okay. Now I’m genuinely inquisitive about where exactly your extracting that Dovewing made it obvious she wasn’t interested. I mean from the readers perspective, it’s only evident because we have Dovewing’s internal monologues, Not because she’s communicated her disinterest in him to anyone, especially not Bumblestripe. While there’s plenty of evidence she lead him on with false hope, and played him like a fiddle. unless your referencing to her giving nonverbal signals through body language? Which we know that Bumblestripe is socially awkward, and pretty imperceptive to those kinds of cues and would require being told directly, and in a straightforward manner. And I would think that’s something Dovewing would of picked up on from him as well, from being mates for a period, and just knowing him for most of her life. I suppose her being snappy and harsh might be an indicator, but she behaves in that manner to most cats, so it’s not exclusive to him, and he wouldn’t be able to deduce the specific cause to her behavior giving her volatility and susceptibility to become hostile over small things, like being complimented, or just being plain friendly, giving life advice. Heck she was about to burn a hole through Tigerheart’s skull at the very beginning of ThS for not just up and abandoning his clan in need, and agreeing to immediately go running off into the unknown with her. So unless I’m missing something, I fail to see how she made it obvious to him.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 31, 2022 6:55:47 GMT -5
I mean I think breaking up could be seen as a strong signal.
But it is weird that after that argument at Purdy’s funeral, Dovewing is still evasive like “I can’t make that decision right now” or whatever instead of just saying “nope 0 interest”
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 31, 2022 10:25:06 GMT -5
I'd also like to point out something as well.
It's not even that Dovewing didn't want kits. It's just that she didn't want kits with Bumblestripe. It's the same argument logic as, it's not that Dovewing wasn't interested in Bumblestripe, it's just that he wasn't Tigerheart, so he'd never be good enough. She'd never love him, he was just convenient, etc.
In BrS there's a scene:
Keep in mind this is after the final battle with the Dark Forest, and then a flood, and there's already been so many deaths and damage done. They've lost queens, and kits are very much valued at times of struggle, because they show prosperity and growth, and even signs of recovery. Bumblestripe saw how natural Dovewing was around the apprentices, which made him happy and exited at the idea of the two of them having their own kits one day. Noting that she'd be a great mother, and he obviously loves her as a mate, but the moment this is even suggested she quickly pulls away from him.
If her behavior is so obvious that even cats from outside of the relationship are noticing how coldly she was treating her own mate, then that says something imo. And again, it's not that she didn't want kits, it's just that she didn't want them with Bumblestripe, because in ThS she and Tigerheart wasted little to any time getting back together and Dovewing revealed she was expecting kits not long after that.
And lastly, I want to say that it's quite literally not unheard of for ex partners to get back together and try again. Or for them to have a much better and fulfilling relationship because they have children, whether normally or adopting, heck or even just getting a bunch of pets, even relocating, and trying other new stuff, etc. I think people need to realize that courting your interest is harmless, and if Dovewing clearly said she wasn't interested and never would be, then I would be on her side in all of this, but she NEVER did. And dragged Bumblestripe along to point that they enter a mutual committed relationship, which in reality was always one-sided from Dovewing's POV.
She used him. Point and simple. Then tossed him aside when she didn't want him anymore, and avoided giving him closure, while continuing to STILL string him along knowingly.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 31, 2022 10:30:34 GMT -5
This thread keeps making me think, “Damn why didn’t Dovewing want Bumblestripe? He is such a loving and sweet dude.”
Like its not a crime if she’s not interested, I just don’t get why anyone would pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe lol.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 31, 2022 10:47:28 GMT -5
This thread keeps making me think, “Damn why didn’t Dovewing want Bumblestripe? He is such a loving and sweet dude.” Like its not a crime if she’s not interested, I just don’t get why anyone would pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe lol. It's quite baffling isn't it? Bumblestripe was generally just a fun loving dude, he was kind, witty, considerate, and caring to others around him. The genuine moments he had with Ivypool and Briarlight, are reasons why I've come to actually like him over time, and the way he was so patient and understanding with Dovewing was sweet. He even admired her ever since he was an apprentice, and became smitten. I have no problem with them not staying together at all, trust me, but I just wish she hadn't entered a relationship with him in the first place if she was just going to use him out of convenience. Bumblestripe was known in the fandom to be one of the most lovable characters in the series back in the day, and seeing him pad after a relationship doomed from the start was just not enjoyable to read about. It would literally have been so easy for Dovewing to just say she wasn't interested, never would be, end it like that, and then boom, over. But she never did because she's fickle and terrible at communicating. And for people that think he wouldn't have let her be if she had rejected him properly, they just genuinely don't understand his character then. Even when she showed up with kits from another cat, a ShadowClan leader, after just disappearing for weeks, despite everything he was still glad she was okay. That scene was shattering. And it's literally the moment you can tell he just didn't have nothing left to give anymore. Him hardening his nerves now, isn't out of anger or spite toward her for not choosing him, its because he just genuinely didn't want to be hurt anymore, and he put up walls to protect himself, which is sad... He deserved better than her, an actual mate that would genuinely love him for him and not like garbage because of who he isn't.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2022 11:30:42 GMT -5
This thread keeps making me think, “Damn why didn’t Dovewing want Bumblestripe? He is such a loving and sweet dude.” Like its not a crime if she’s not interested, I just don’t get why anyone would pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe lol. Because... she loves Tigerheart, and that's not really something she needs to explain? Idk, I'm just glad she's happy now.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Jul 31, 2022 12:47:25 GMT -5
dovewing was still an apprentice when she started meeting tigerheart (as just friends at first). does no one else think that hanging with him as an apprentice ruined her chances of ever falling for anyone else? preferably someone who isnt a jerk like tigerheart was in the beginning? she hung out with him since she was an apprentice and thus couldnt shake holding him to this ideal of what a tom should be. bumblestripe never even had a chance bc of this. this is why i personally think dovewing kept comparing bumblestripe to tigerheart unfairly.
|
|
Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
|
Post by Cloudstorm on Jul 31, 2022 12:50:32 GMT -5
This thread keeps making me think, “Damn why didn’t Dovewing want Bumblestripe? He is such a loving and sweet dude.” Like its not a crime if she’s not interested, I just don’t get why anyone would pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe lol. Because Kate’s hatred for Bumblestripe and Vicky’s decision to break apart her precious TigerxDove romance runs deep. Obviously no one could say if Kate’s personal bias has any influence when it comes to the story. But I do think their decision was influenced by their intent of making Tigerheart more revered and relevant in the narrative(just like with Rowanstar getting butchered for his sons benefit) and to give him Shadowsight as a prophecy cat to further boost his reputation. Might have also been part of planned foreshadowing to make forbidden relationship accepted by clan culture, coupled with the changes in TBC and now ASC. my radically thinking left sphere however thinks they just wanted to reverse Vicky’s conclusion to Dovewing’s arc. As it’s very clearly written in Dovewing’s Silence that Dovewing had settled well with Bumblestripe and had much more hope and optimism about her future in Thunderclan with the prophecy being fulfilled and her being able to be ordinary like she always wistfully dreamed for………. And for a brief moment the cosmos aligned and I found myself liking her for the first time ever……..only for that feeling to be cremated into ashes the very next book. What a pity.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 31, 2022 14:54:20 GMT -5
This thread keeps making me think, “Damn why didn’t Dovewing want Bumblestripe? He is such a loving and sweet dude.” Like its not a crime if she’s not interested, I just don’t get why anyone would pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe lol. Because... she loves Tigerheart, and that's not really something she needs to explain? Idk, I'm just glad she's happy now. I'm being genuine here, but it is something she needs to be honest about if she's just going to use him in the end anyways. If her loving Tigerheart means she had to use Bumblestripe and drag him into her mess, along with her clanmates later on by running away from her problems, then it is something she needs to explain. No one is saying she's obligated to return Bumblestripe's feelings, or stay in ThunderClan, but the way she treated him and her clanmates in the end just showed how much she disregarded their feelings, which painted in her in a selfish narrative. Hence why people criticize her for her behavior in the first place. There's nothing stopping her form actually just being honest for once, instead of making situations 10x worse and longer than it had to be. I'm sure people would have found her character MUCH more likable and respectable if she was honest about a lot of things she did when it came to her unnecessary love drama, which took up the majority of her character.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2022 15:00:18 GMT -5
Because... she loves Tigerheart, and that's not really something she needs to explain? Idk, I'm just glad she's happy now. I'm being genuine here, but it is something she needs to be honest about if she's just going to use him in the end anyways. If her loving Tigerheart means she had to use Bumblestripe and drag him into her mess, along with her clanmates later on by running away from her problems, then it is something she needs to explain. No one is saying she's obligated to return Bumblestripe's feelings, or stay in ThunderClan, but the way she treated him and her clanmates in the end just showed how much she disregarded their feelings, which painted in her in a selfish narrative. Hence why people criticize her for her behavior in the first place. There's nothing stopping her form actually just being honest for once, instead of making situations 10x worse and longer than it had to be. I wasn't talking about any of that at all, and I'm honestly just tired of debating about this at this point. I was replying to how Saint Ambrosef was saying "why would anyone pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe".
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 31, 2022 15:43:10 GMT -5
Speaking on the scene I mentioned before. This happens in the same book where Dovewing breaks up with Tigerheart (again) and chooses Bumblestripe. This is the last time they have any time of "relationship" conversation before them getting together officially at the end of TLH, if you don't count the gathering scene.
Unsurprisingly, she's thinking about only Tigerheart, and prior to this she was thinking about how annoying Bumblestripe was. He makes a comment about his sister almost running him into a tree, and Dovewing makes an unnecessary jab at him, while also insulting him under her breath.
Dovewing genuinely saw nothing wrong with how snappy she was being toward him, whether he liked her or not, she was still his clanmate, and her treatment of him was meanspirited and such a repeated occurrence that Rosepetal stepped in and said something. The way she was treating him felt like she was "punishing him for liking her" hence why Rosepetal asks "Do you enjoy hurting his feelings?" And why Dovewing felt guilty afterward, because she realizes just how bad it looked. Again, no one is saying she's obligated to return his feelings, but at least treat him like a friggen clanmate.
Bumblestripe tries to avoid, her but only eases up when she actually wants to talk to him for once, otherwise he wanted to steer clear of her after the recent verbal jabs. He's rightfully upset at her, and says that he's tired of being her scratching post, considering this wasn't the first (and not the last) time this happened. Regardless of his feelings for her, he has the right to be upset, since at this point she wasn't even treating him with the courtesy of even a clanmate, and came off as "hostile".
Dovewing denying accountability for her own actions. Bumblestripe making it clear, he gets it, it's fine if she doesn't like him, but he is disappointed she's not the cat he thought she was. Aka, he's disappointed at how crappy she was treating him as just clanmates, and which goes back to the narrative of her "punishing him just for liking her" because how dare he, right? /sarcasm She gets offended, and thinks it's all just about her, again, when in reality it's just, "Hey maybe don't treat your clanmates and friends like crap?" I don't think the prophecy is THAT much of a hinderance to you that you can't be a decent cat. Oh and her getting angry at Rosepetal, when Rosepetal was in the right tbh. And if you're all curious, here's the gathering scene:
She naively chats it up with Tigerheart showing closeness and familiarity, which isn't too much of a problem at a gathering, but definitely brow raising. However, Bumblestripe is more miffed at how fast she starts sputtering excuses to justify what's she's doing before shrugging, not caring, and walking off. He literally did not care what she did at this point. And here's the final scene:
Honestly the only thing I have to say about this is that there's no build up to it at all, considering how she treated him throughout the rest of the book before.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 31, 2022 15:50:01 GMT -5
No, but at the same time, after spending hours gathering every single scene they had together and then some, I also don't think she was too bad—definitely nowhere near as bad as she could've been.
She was clearly trying to move on and even genuinely liked being in Bumblestripe's company when he wasn't criticizing or fussing over her, which was partially what turned her off him in the first place, Tigerheart aside. It was more than just having feelings for another cat, and the Clan repeatedly trying to push them together while Dovewing herself was going through a lot at the time (nightmares, losing her powers, breaking up with the one cat she felt understood her; not that they could've known) almost certainly didn't help, either.
That being said, Bumblestripe is still a creep for bringing up kits right after Purdy died—especially when they weren't even together anymore—and Dovewing should've learned to communicate her feelings better.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2022 15:55:34 GMT -5
No, but at the same time, after spending hours gathering every single scene they had together and then some, I also don't think she was too bad—definitely nowhere near as bad as she could've been. She was clearly trying to move on and even genuinely liked being in Bumblestripe's company when he wasn't criticizing or fussing over her, which was partially what turned her off him in the first place, Tigerheart aside. It was more than just having feelings for another cat, and the Clan repeatedly trying to push them together while Dovewing herself was going through a lot at the time (nightmares, losing her powers, breaking up with the one cat she felt understood her; not that they could've known) almost certainly didn't help, either. That being said, Bumblestripe is still a creep for bringing up kits right after Purdy died—especially when they weren't even together anymore—and Dovewing should've learned to communicate her feelings better. Completely agree, well said.
|
|
|
Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 31, 2022 16:00:22 GMT -5
I'm being genuine here, but it is something she needs to be honest about if she's just going to use him in the end anyways. If her loving Tigerheart means she had to use Bumblestripe and drag him into her mess, along with her clanmates later on by running away from her problems, then it is something she needs to explain. No one is saying she's obligated to return Bumblestripe's feelings, or stay in ThunderClan, but the way she treated him and her clanmates in the end just showed how much she disregarded their feelings, which painted in her in a selfish narrative. Hence why people criticize her for her behavior in the first place. There's nothing stopping her form actually just being honest for once, instead of making situations 10x worse and longer than it had to be. I wasn't talking about any of that at all, and I'm honestly just tired of debating about this at this point. I was replying to how Saint Ambrosef was saying "why would anyone pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe". Saint phrased it in a general sense though (unless I'm wrong)? But your reply was about Dovewing, was it not? "Why would anyone pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe?" generally speaking is a good question, considering just how terrible he was being as well (using his partner, betraying their trust, not taking their relationship seriously, etc), compared to Bumblestripe. But if we're just talking about Dovewing here, I feel that it's definitely something that does need explaining if it's getting to the point where the writing suffers because of her fickleness. My reply was more toward that, the fact that the Erins poorly executed this whole romance triangle, from any side, including Dovewing and Tigerheart. Dovewing as a character doesn't need to explain why she likes Tigerheart, but in the position she was in, it would make her character better written and help the narrative much more if she did. Does that make sense? /genq
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jul 31, 2022 16:00:40 GMT -5
This thread keeps making me think, “Damn why didn’t Dovewing want Bumblestripe? He is such a loving and sweet dude.” Like its not a crime if she’s not interested, I just don’t get why anyone would pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe lol. Because... she loves Tigerheart, and that's not really something she needs to explain? Idk, I'm just glad she's happy now. According to Kate on BlogClan: It's also worth noting that at the time of agreeing to meet with him, Jayfeather and Lionblaze only really saw her as more of a tool than her own cat, Ivypaw was being cold towards her, and no one else from the journey still wanted to be friends with her except for Tigerheart, the one cat who didn't have any high expectations of her that she could see. She met with him out of loneliness and then it quickly turned into love. I still wish she'd moved to ShadowClan much sooner, though.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2022 16:14:16 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about any of that at all, and I'm honestly just tired of debating about this at this point. I was replying to how Saint Ambrosef was saying "why would anyone pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe". Saint phrased it in a general sense though (unless I'm wrong)? But your reply was about Dovewing, was it not? "Why would anyone pick Tigerheart over Bumblestripe?" generally speaking is a good question, considering just how terrible he was being as well (using his partner, betraying their trust, not taking their relationship seriously, etc), compared to Bumblestripe. But if we're just talking about Dovewing here, I feel that it's definitely something that does need explaining if it's getting to the point where the writing suffers because of her fickleness. My reply was more toward that, the fact that the Erins poorly executed this whole romance triangle, from any side, including Dovewing and Tigerheart. Dovewing as a character doesn't need to explain why she likes Tigerheart, but in the position she was in, it would make her character better written and help the narrative much more if she did. Does that make sense? /genq Yeah, I suppose that does make sense. All I was really commenting on was that the reason Dovewing chose Tigerheart was because she loves Tigerheart, and that doesn't really need an explanation per se.
|
|