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Post by rabbit on Jul 11, 2022 19:11:30 GMT -5
I never understood the "cat instincts" excuse with Rainflower either, I mean these cats clearly don't act like real cats, they have religion, medicine cats, a code, etc. If it was actually meant to be realistic, Shellheart wouldn't have cared for Crookedkit or Rainflower at all, male cats 'instinctively' don't care for their mates or kits but you don't see that in the books And why is Rainflower the only one who neglects her kit if it's insticts? You never see Snowkit's mom abuse him because he's deaf, or Leafpool/Squirrelflight neglecting Jayfeather because he's blind. Yeah. How come they only ever bring it up with Rainflower when there are plenty of cats who don't neglect their kits? Or ignore all the other ways in which the cats don't act like real ones? Okay, in Forest of Secrets Fireheart thought to himself that it was unusual for toms to be close with their kits but that was definitely dropped in the later arcs. So yeah, no excuse for Rainflower's behavior being "realistic" while Shellheart's isn't. Besides, Crookedkit's injury didn't even prevent him from becoming a warrior. He needed to learn how to properly eat with his jaw but that's it. So yeah, the "wouldn't survive anyway" excuse makes no sense, especially because the clans have their medicine cats. Or what, do real cats abandon their kittens for being "ugly" now? It does come off as an “animal specific” scenario inserted into the book, so we can see the pov of animal struggle with something a human normally wouldn’t. Kind of like the cat hoarder plot in Graystripe’s Vow. Meanwhile I’m over here waiting for them to write a scenario where a mother eats her unhealthy young (unless that has happened in Survivors or Bravelands, never read or finished them).
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 11, 2022 19:59:28 GMT -5
Yeah. How come they only ever bring it up with Rainflower when there are plenty of cats who don't neglect their kits? Or ignore all the other ways in which the cats don't act like real ones? Okay, in Forest of Secrets Fireheart thought to himself that it was unusual for toms to be close with their kits but that was definitely dropped in the later arcs. So yeah, no excuse for Rainflower's behavior being "realistic" while Shellheart's isn't. Besides, Crookedkit's injury didn't even prevent him from becoming a warrior. He needed to learn how to properly eat with his jaw but that's it. So yeah, the "wouldn't survive anyway" excuse makes no sense, especially because the clans have their medicine cats. Or what, do real cats abandon their kittens for being "ugly" now? It does come off as an “animal specific” scenario inserted into the book, so we can see the pov of animal struggle with something a human normally wouldn’t. Kind of like the cat hoarder plot in Graystripe’s Vow. Meanwhile I’m over here waiting for them to write a scenario where a mother eats her unhealthy young (unless that has happened in Survivors or Bravelands, never read or finished them). i absolutely think warriors should do a cannibal villain but im pretty sure thats not "kid friendly"...sad
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Post by rabbit on Jul 11, 2022 20:27:56 GMT -5
It does come off as an “animal specific” scenario inserted into the book, so we can see the pov of animal struggle with something a human normally wouldn’t. Kind of like the cat hoarder plot in Graystripe’s Vow. Meanwhile I’m over here waiting for them to write a scenario where a mother eats her unhealthy young (unless that has happened in Survivors or Bravelands, never read or finished them). i absolutely think warriors should do a cannibal villain but im pretty sure thats not "kid friendly"...sad Middle grade fiction is full of lots of not kid friendly stuff. Sometimes I’m surprised what authors get away with putting in their books. Having people’s skin graphically melt off due to chemical burns? Totally fine! Main character getting trafficked into grueling slavery and develops a drug addiction? A-okay!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2022 0:07:25 GMT -5
Mudclaw defence always earns a side eye from me
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Aroace
#90ec86
Name Colour
Pineclaw
Pronouns: He/Him or They/Them
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Post by Pineclaw on Jul 12, 2022 2:43:51 GMT -5
It does come off as an “animal specific” scenario inserted into the book, so we can see the pov of animal struggle with something a human normally wouldn’t. Kind of like the cat hoarder plot in Graystripe’s Vow. Meanwhile I’m over here waiting for them to write a scenario where a mother eats her unhealthy young (unless that has happened in Survivors or Bravelands, never read or finished them). i absolutely think warriors should do a cannibal villain but im pretty sure thats not "kid friendly"...sad Yes! Give us a cannibal villain, Erins! It doesn't even have to be an actual villain. It can be even something like this (said by the author of two fanfics I read: Twisted Tree and Fair Winds) : I'd kind of like to see the latter, with the rest of the clan being horrified when they find out. But yeah, it's not something that'll happen because, like you said, its not "kid friendly". But rabbit has a point too, there is some pretty gruesome stuff in books for kids. Deptford Mice and Animorphs come to mind. Redwall too, to some extend. The latter even has a cannibal villain in one of the books.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 12, 2022 8:34:54 GMT -5
i absolutely think warriors should do a cannibal villain but im pretty sure thats not "kid friendly"...sad Yes! Give us a cannibal villain, Erins! It doesn't even have to be an actual villain. It can be even something like this (said by the author of two fanfics I read: Twisted Tree and Fair Winds) : I'd kind of like to see the latter, with the rest of the clan being horrified when they find out. But yeah, it's not something that'll happen because, like you said, its not "kid friendly". But rabbit has a point too, there is some pretty gruesome stuff in books for kids. Deptford Mice and Animorphs come to mind. Redwall too, to some extend. The latter even has a cannibal villain in one of the books. Cannibal villains are possible within the rating limits of this type of series, the problem is that there's actually almost nothing interesting about them. Gulo was a villain in Redwall, but they were also just a big dumb oaf who relied solely on the fact that he's the biggest kind of vermin around to be threatening. This can't work in Warriors because all the cats are the same species, unless you were to randomly have an escaped zoo cat or something. The latter plot might be interesting, but it's not because of the cannibalism, it'd be because it's an escaped zoo cat that HAPPENS to be a cannibal. This is the key detail here, cannibalism can spice up a character, but if you just make a villain a cannibal as their one defining trait, it becomes very lame very fast. This is exactly why the Texas Chainsaw Massacre movies turned to absolute garbage after the first one, because they missed the point of what made the family threatening. It's not just the cannibalism, it's the fact that they straight up treat people with detachment akin to livestock, the twisted dynamic within it, and the overhanging air of rural towns abandoned by industrial America. In short, I would be fine with a villain who HAPPENS to be a cannibal. But a cannibal villain with nothing else special about them can't hold a series or even an SE. Maybe a one off thug for the real main bad guy, or a novella or GN villain.
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 28, 2022 1:13:56 GMT -5
thistleclaw stans
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 28, 2022 1:15:36 GMT -5
Yes! Give us a cannibal villain, Erins! It doesn't even have to be an actual villain. It can be even something like this (said by the author of two fanfics I read: Twisted Tree and Fair Winds) : I'd kind of like to see the latter, with the rest of the clan being horrified when they find out. But yeah, it's not something that'll happen because, like you said, its not "kid friendly". But rabbit has a point too, there is some pretty gruesome stuff in books for kids. Deptford Mice and Animorphs come to mind. Redwall too, to some extend. The latter even has a cannibal villain in one of the books. Cannibal villains are possible within the rating limits of this type of series, the problem is that there's actually almost nothing interesting about them. Gulo was a villain in Redwall, but they were also just a big dumb oaf who relied solely on the fact that he's the biggest kind of vermin around to be threatening. This can't work in Warriors because all the cats are the same species, unless you were to randomly have an escaped zoo cat or something. The latter plot might be interesting, but it's not because of the cannibalism, it'd be because it's an escaped zoo cat that HAPPENS to be a cannibal. This is the key detail here, cannibalism can spice up a character, but if you just make a villain a cannibal as their one defining trait, it becomes very lame very fast. This is exactly why the Texas Chainsaw Massacre movies turned to absolute garbage after the first one, because they missed the point of what made the family threatening. It's not just the cannibalism, it's the fact that they straight up treat people with detachment akin to livestock, the twisted dynamic within it, and the overhanging air of rural towns abandoned by industrial America. In short, I would be fine with a villain who HAPPENS to be a cannibal. But a cannibal villain with nothing else special about them can't hold a series or even an SE. Maybe a one off thug for the real main bad guy, or a novella or GN villain. you do realise these cats are meant to be human-like right
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 28, 2022 4:03:37 GMT -5
I have a few, some are also pet peeves as well.
Said character is a character that can do no wrong because they're a "good parent" and that excuses all their terrible behavior prior.
Said character is arrogant and ambitous, not the traditonal sunshine and rainbows, therefore you're not allowed to defend or like them in any way possible.
Said character turned into a villainous antagonist in the end therefore any unjustifiable treatment they received before is deserved.
Said male character is upset, or disagrees with female character over relationship issue, therefore he's suddenly 100% an incel with no redeeming qualities.
Said character was the first main character so they're held to the "gold standard" and can't be critiqued compared to the other main characters that come after.
Said character gets judged against another character despite dying much more prematurely, vs the second character who's lived longer and has done more in their life in general.
Said character is neglected and abused when their younger by horrible parents, but gets condemmed if they turn out horrrible or do bad things, while the parents are defended??
Said character is breaking rules and in a forbidden relationship that does everything wrong, but they get an exception because of the "I at least like them" argument.
Said female character does something increadible manipulative and toxic to her male partner but she gets defended and in some odd cases the male gets blamed??
Said character gets new information about them years later, so people suddenly make it their career to shame past debators that just happened to be incorrect.
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Post by seantheskyhunter on Jul 28, 2022 6:19:48 GMT -5
This is waaay back on the old forums and fandom, and prior to TBC, but the insane amount of Ashfur apologists who genuinely believed that Squirrelflight was a lying, manipulative, and selfish character who only used Ashfur as an emotional crutch when she had an argument with Brambleclaw. And that Ashfur was misunderstood, only "loved too much", only did what he did because of the heartbreak, and would have been a better mate to her than Bramblestar. Essentially it was Ashfur fans who despised Squirrelflight and Bramblestar. Naturally, in the years since and especially with TBC, those voices have silenced. my friend is still like that. Even after all that happened in arc 7
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on Jul 28, 2022 8:33:21 GMT -5
I have a few, some are also pet peeves as well. Said character is a character that can do no wrong because they're a "good parent" and that excuses all their terrible behavior prior. Said character is arrogant and ambitous, not the traditonal sunshine and rainbows, therefore you're not allowed to defend or like them in any way possible. Said character turned into a villainous antagonist in the end therefore any unjustifiable treatment they received before is deserved. Said male character is upset, or disagrees with female character over relationship issue, therefore he's suddenly 100% an incel with no redeeming qualities. Said character was the first main character so they're held to the "gold standard" and can't be critiqued compared to the other main characters that come after. Said character gets judged against another character despite dying much more prematurely, vs the second character who's lived longer and has done more in their life in general. Said character is neglected and abused when their younger by horrible parents, but gets condemmed if they turn out horrrible or do bad things, while the parents are defended?? Said character is breaking rules and in a forbidden relationship that does everything wrong, but they get an exception because of the "I at least like them" argument. Said female character does something increadible manipulative and toxic to her male partner but she gets defended and in some odd cases the male gets blamed?? Said character gets new information about them years later, so people suddenly make it their career to shame past debators that just happened to be incorrect. Oh yes I agree I get so anoyed when I say I hate firestar but he's not the worse people are like oh no he's firestar the first pov he's way better then let's say dovewing who had way more amotional depth even though I don't love her the fandom has ruins firestar for me he is a stuped cat and do anoying to read about. That's it I'm going to make a thred were people give me characters to rant about.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 28, 2022 10:29:47 GMT -5
Cannibal villains are possible within the rating limits of this type of series, the problem is that there's actually almost nothing interesting about them. Gulo was a villain in Redwall, but they were also just a big dumb oaf who relied solely on the fact that he's the biggest kind of vermin around to be threatening. This can't work in Warriors because all the cats are the same species, unless you were to randomly have an escaped zoo cat or something. The latter plot might be interesting, but it's not because of the cannibalism, it'd be because it's an escaped zoo cat that HAPPENS to be a cannibal. This is the key detail here, cannibalism can spice up a character, but if you just make a villain a cannibal as their one defining trait, it becomes very lame very fast. This is exactly why the Texas Chainsaw Massacre movies turned to absolute garbage after the first one, because they missed the point of what made the family threatening. It's not just the cannibalism, it's the fact that they straight up treat people with detachment akin to livestock, the twisted dynamic within it, and the overhanging air of rural towns abandoned by industrial America. In short, I would be fine with a villain who HAPPENS to be a cannibal. But a cannibal villain with nothing else special about them can't hold a series or even an SE. Maybe a one off thug for the real main bad guy, or a novella or GN villain. you do realise these cats are meant to be human-like right What's your point? Yes, they are, that's why cannibalism as a villain trait is even being discussed. I simply think, that even with human-like characters such as Redwall villains or literal humans like the characters of Texas Chainsaw Massacre, cannibalism alone is not enough to base an interesting character off of. The Redwall cannibal villain was boring, and the family in Texas Chainsaw Massacre was interesting not SOLELY on the back of cannibalism.
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 28, 2022 10:41:35 GMT -5
you do realise these cats are meant to be human-like right What's your point? Yes, they are, that's why cannibalism as a villain trait is even being discussed. I simply think, that even with human-like characters such as Redwall villains or literal humans like the characters of Texas Chainsaw Massacre, cannibalism alone is not enough to base an interesting character off of. The Redwall cannibal villain was boring, and the family in Texas Chainsaw Massacre was interesting not SOLELY on the back of cannibalism. my point is this is a children's book series
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 28, 2022 10:49:22 GMT -5
Mudclaw defence always earns a side eye from me you should read winds of change
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 28, 2022 12:00:04 GMT -5
What's your point? Yes, they are, that's why cannibalism as a villain trait is even being discussed. I simply think, that even with human-like characters such as Redwall villains or literal humans like the characters of Texas Chainsaw Massacre, cannibalism alone is not enough to base an interesting character off of. The Redwall cannibal villain was boring, and the family in Texas Chainsaw Massacre was interesting not SOLELY on the back of cannibalism. my point is this is a children's book series That has nothing to do with them being human-like or not, so I'm not sure why you brought that up to begin with. If your argument is just that it couldn't be done in a kid's book series with animals, I mean look at Redwall and Guardians of Ga'hoole, clearly it can be. Heck, one of Erin Hunter's OWN SERIES has a cannibalistic villain in Titan from Bravelands. I'd say it's pretty clear any issue with cannibalism has absolutely nothing to do with whether kids are fine with it or not.
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 28, 2022 12:13:51 GMT -5
my point is this is a children's book series That has nothing to do with them being human-like or not, so I'm not sure why you brought that up to begin with. If your argument is just that it couldn't be done in a kid's book series with animals, I mean look at Redwall and Guardians of Ga'hoole, clearly it can be. Heck, one of Erin Hunter's OWN SERIES has a cannibalistic villain in Titan from Bravelands. I'd say it's pretty clear any issue with cannibalism has absolutely nothing to do with whether kids are fine with it or not. just don't become an editor for any book series ever please the series already has problems with other themes and i'm pretty sure no parent would want their kid read about human-like cats being cannibalistic cannibalism seems too nsfw for a kids book thats all i'm saying why the hell did you bring this whole thing up anyway
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Post by vectoring34 on Jul 28, 2022 12:32:37 GMT -5
That has nothing to do with them being human-like or not, so I'm not sure why you brought that up to begin with. If your argument is just that it couldn't be done in a kid's book series with animals, I mean look at Redwall and Guardians of Ga'hoole, clearly it can be. Heck, one of Erin Hunter's OWN SERIES has a cannibalistic villain in Titan from Bravelands. I'd say it's pretty clear any issue with cannibalism has absolutely nothing to do with whether kids are fine with it or not. just don't become an editor for any book series ever please the series already has problems with other themes and i'm pretty sure no parent would want their kid read about human-like cats being cannibalistic cannibalism seems too nsfw for a kids book thats all i'm saying why the hell did you bring this whole thing up anyway Evidently parents don't care since the other Erin Hunter series with human-like cats features cannibalism. You ought to direct some of your moral outrage towards the Erins themselves, since they're the ones who wrote Bravelands and had it published, not me. I didn't bring up cannibalism, anyway, if you look further up in the thread. People were discussing wanting a cannibal villain and I said that unless they have something more to them, it'll be a bad idea.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Jul 28, 2022 14:14:00 GMT -5
Just gonna pop in to say that Guardians of Ga'hoole, a children's book series, had a villain whose primary villainous characteristic was cannibalism (she was evil in other ways but still)
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Post by rabbit on Jul 28, 2022 14:59:22 GMT -5
That has nothing to do with them being human-like or not, so I'm not sure why you brought that up to begin with. If your argument is just that it couldn't be done in a kid's book series with animals, I mean look at Redwall and Guardians of Ga'hoole, clearly it can be. Heck, one of Erin Hunter's OWN SERIES has a cannibalistic villain in Titan from Bravelands. I'd say it's pretty clear any issue with cannibalism has absolutely nothing to do with whether kids are fine with it or not. just don't become an editor for any book series ever please the series already has problems with other themes and i'm pretty sure no parent would want their kid read about human-like cats being cannibalistic cannibalism seems too nsfw for a kids book thats all i'm saying why the hell did you bring this whole thing up anyway what other middle grade fictional series have you read? I’m not asking to “challenge” you or whatever, just genuinely curious what you think is appropriate for children cause all the ones I’ve read… well fortunately get away with a lot of stuff because over protective parents don’t want to read a kid’s book.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jul 28, 2022 15:38:53 GMT -5
just don't become an editor for any book series ever please the series already has problems with other themes and i'm pretty sure no parent would want their kid read about human-like cats being cannibalistic cannibalism seems too nsfw for a kids book thats all i'm saying why the hell did you bring this whole thing up anyway Evidently parents don't care since the other Erin Hunter series with human-like cats features cannibalism. You ought to direct some of your moral outrage towards the Erins themselves, since they're the ones who wrote Bravelands and had it published, not me. I didn't bring up cannibalism, anyway, if you look further up in the thread. People were discussing wanting a cannibal villain and I said that unless they have something more to them, it'll be a bad idea. that was me, i brought it up but also i read Rakkety Tam (the Redwall book in question) and Guardians of Ga'Hoole when I was probably 11ish and never thought a cannibalistic villain was somehow "too scary" or questionable, and neither did my parents. as long as it's portrayed as bad and isn't super graphically described, i don't understand why it'd be so problematic for middle schoolers to read it. it's not a delicate topic than could easily misinform kid's consciences or something.
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Post by cable on Jul 28, 2022 23:54:35 GMT -5
this series has baby murders out the gate along with child grooming and characters being gutted, crushed, and burned alive. why are we drawing the line at cannibalism.
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Post by cable on Jul 28, 2022 23:56:27 GMT -5
Mudclaw defence always earns a side eye from me you should read winds of change winds of change killed and buried a lot of common mudclaw defenses and pretty much emphasized that he endangered his clan repeatedly over his ego. it just really enforces that a lot of mudclaw defense is based on double standards or flat out ignoring things hes done. even mudclaw himself admits he was horrible and wrong in that book.
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 29, 2022 15:13:53 GMT -5
you should read winds of change winds of change killed and buried a lot of common mudclaw defenses and pretty much emphasized that he endangered his clan repeatedly over his ego. it just really enforces that a lot of mudclaw defense is based on double standards or flat out ignoring things hes done. even mudclaw himself admits he was horrible and wrong in that book. ftr i didn't mean he was right to do everything. it's just when you see things from both onestar and mudclaw's view it absolutely makes sense for both of them- that's what i was trying to say? mudclaw tried to take over because he was trying to do the right thing & onestar defended his position because he's the chosen leader. by tallstar? idk how it works in warrior code but i can see why both of them acted the way they did. these two are geniunely two of my favorite characters in idea sorry
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Post by leafpool official on Jul 29, 2022 15:17:46 GMT -5
just don't become an editor for any book series ever please the series already has problems with other themes and i'm pretty sure no parent would want their kid read about human-like cats being cannibalistic cannibalism seems too nsfw for a kids book thats all i'm saying why the hell did you bring this whole thing up anyway Evidently parents don't care since the other Erin Hunter series with human-like cats features cannibalism. You ought to direct some of your moral outrage towards the Erins themselves, since they're the ones who wrote Bravelands and had it published, not me. I didn't bring up cannibalism, anyway, if you look further up in the thread. People were discussing wanting a cannibal villain and I said that unless they have something more to them, it'll be a bad idea. i'm not mad at you? and i think it'd be fair to be a little mad at erins for screwing certain things up. i think the amount of "fixing warrior cats" fanfictions really say alot. i wish you were more clear about the point you're making, i ran out of patience a little
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Post by cable on Jul 29, 2022 15:39:41 GMT -5
winds of change killed and buried a lot of common mudclaw defenses and pretty much emphasized that he endangered his clan repeatedly over his ego. it just really enforces that a lot of mudclaw defense is based on double standards or flat out ignoring things hes done. even mudclaw himself admits he was horrible and wrong in that book. ftr i didn't mean he was right to do everything. it's just when you see things from both onestar and mudclaw's view it absolutely makes sense for both of them- that's what i was trying to say? mudclaw tried to take over because he was trying to do the right thing & onestar defended his position because he's the chosen leader. by tallstar? idk how it works in warrior code but i can see why both of them acted the way they did. these two are geniunely two of my favorite characters in idea sorry i think by mudclaw defense they were talking about people who say he did nothing wrong and was entirely in the right in all of his actions, so i assumed thats the perspective you were responding from. sorry, shouldnt have assumed! i agree, theyre both excellent characters and i wish their conflict had been extended through the arc instead of the weird badger plot
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Jul 30, 2022 15:11:18 GMT -5
I've seen countless people say Mapleshade belongs in StarClan. Like... what are we missing here?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Jul 31, 2022 11:02:45 GMT -5
I've seen countless people say Mapleshade belongs in StarClan. Like... what are we missing here? That argument always baffled me. I'm saying this as someone who likes Mapleshade, but like I highly doubt she'd want to go to StarClan considering from her pov, they're the ones that sent the omen, left her out to dry, and didn't answer any of her prayers to them. She was quite literally, in her own sense, abandoned by her ancestors. But considering how StarClan has been shown to be petty and behave no better than kits, I don't even blame her for having a growing hatred for them. It's like disliking characters that think they're "self-righteous" and always right on their high horses, when they can be just as bad, if not worse. The idea of Mapleshade wantingt to go to StarClan is so ooc it hurts, and the only exception would be because of her kits.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2022 10:02:08 GMT -5
i think anytime someone tries to argue that a personal opinion is equal to canon objective fact. this occurs most often when someone doesn't care for a particular character's personality and choices, which is just a matter of taste. but then someone else feels the need to convince said person that their opinion is "incorrect" as if its something that can be proven wrong with evidence. for example: if i said "i don't like squirrelflight because i find her annoying", and someone tried to argue with me, "she's not annoying, and here's several reasons why you're wrong about that using ~scene analysis~ as proof" as if it's an observable fact. i've run into this multiple times were people confuse personal preference/opinion with somehow "misunderstanding". I ran into this exact situation a few days ago. The person was respectful about it, but they tried to prove that Squirrelflight wasn't annoying after I stated that I find her annoying.
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Pansexual
myusernameis
"A warrior never blames his Clanmates for his own mistakes, Lionpaw."
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Post by myusernameis on Aug 7, 2022 18:26:21 GMT -5
The mapleshade stans undying defeneses of mapleshade, it's gross. Like oh yes, ''this woman who murdered people because she got caught in a lie is such a sad baby waa, appledusk bad, ravenwing bad.''
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