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Post by cygna on Apr 30, 2024 16:41:51 GMT -5
I feel like she just doesn't do anything that's worth praise at all.
For all their flaws, Bramblestar & Mothwing have rewarding character arcs where they stand up to their demons.
Tawnypelt on the other hand never has proper character development or a character arc at all. She did some stuff I guess, but she just didn't make an actual impact at all.
She leaves TC, including her mother & brother who both love her, to go to SC for her terrorist father. Then years later, she names her son after her terrorist father. Even if it was to "reclaim" the name it's still insensitive as hell since many of her father's victims like Mistystar & Stormfur (who she was friends with) are still alive but no, just because her father treated her well, suddenly he deserves a grandchild named after him despite being a terrorist who murdered innocents.
She was also a terrible mentor to Needletail. "My apprentice got carried off... oh no, anyways"
She also just doesn't gaf about Dawnpelt's children, her grandchildren, even before Sleekwhisker murders her husband & Juniperclaw attempts to murder Skyclan. Strikestone didn't do anything wrong anyways.
Her biggest only accomplishment at this point is giving birth to Tigerheartstar who's also a piece of sh!t.
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Post by Hollyfall on Apr 30, 2024 17:41:49 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from, and while I would say his worst child (in terms of writing quality) is Hawkfrost, I would argue that it's majorly because, at least in comparison to Bramble and Moth, Tawnypelt hasn't received as much focus. She left ThunderClan because of the constant comparisons and comments about her being descended from Tigerstar. She has Goldenflower and Bramblepaw yes, but in ShadowClan she wouldn't be judged for who her father is and accepted her as she was. You can still have people who love you but still feel like you don't belong in your home, but Tawnypelt was tired of trying to constantly prove herself over and over and making assumptions about her as an individual. Bramblestar was willing to do it, but Tawnypelt wasn't. Why would you stay in a place where people are going to judge and hate you based on something you can't control?
As for naming her kit after her father, I can see why it might be perceived as insensitive, but for all of Tigerstar's faults, he was a genuinely courageous and ambitious cat, and reclaiming the name can be an attempt to remove the stigma of the prefix. Granted, while Tigerstar II certainly doing himself any favours, he's not evil like his grandfather (it's a very low bar, but still). You can acknowledge someone was a bad person but still highlight their virtuous traits. It's not like cats weren't wary about the name when the litter was announced anyway. There's also a scene in her novella where she reflects that she was never really close with Strikestone or Juniperclaw. It's minor, but it's there. But I also think it stems from the fact that Dawnpelt and her kits weren't major players in AVoS as it is so it was never really elaborated on, and her novella was more about her relationships with Shadowsight and Dovewing.
Calling Tigerstar a terrorist though I think is a bit disingenious since he doesn't really fit the term. Darktail would be closer to that.
I think the fact that she went somewhere where she knew she wouldn't have to constantly prove her worth and find a sense of belonging; we see her struggle with this in her novella where she doesn't feel like she fits in with the new ShadowClan, is definitely praise worthy. She's not someone who just sits around and waits for things to get done, she takes a very proactive role and does what she wants because she has little tolerance for nonsense. She just suffers from not being included as much like Bramblestar, Mothwing, or even Hawkfrost. Barring her novella and TNP, she's been a supporting character at best. While the other three are ranged between protagonist or major character in some form.
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Post by wygolvillage on Apr 30, 2024 18:02:09 GMT -5
I think she's just okay. I agree that she just needed more focus to shine as a character. I at least like her more than Bramblestar who I found annoying and hypocritical in TNP and kind of boring afterwards, but, again, at least he has an arc  |
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on Apr 30, 2024 20:36:15 GMT -5
Re: Golden and Bramble, With Tawnypelt she's not just moving away, she's changing clans.
Clan cats don't cross borders just for casual visits with eachother, Bramble tried it in Midnight (and only because he had a serious prophecy to talk about, despite how he mentions missing her) and it nearly went badly for him LOL. Tawny changed clans to prove her worth without being judged - to prove herself as a shadowclan cat she can't be getting friendly with the enemy on border patrols.
And if Thunder and Shadow went to war Tawny would have to fight for her clanmates - against her brother and sister. By changing clans, she and Bramble and Golden are officially enemies. The books talk about peace and loyalty but the clan cats are really into loyalty and boundaries and all that, clan first and family second. I'm not sure if I like that but that's what it is
If they're lucky, and if Bramble/Golden are picked for their Gathering Patrol as long as Tawny is picked for hers, they'll see eachother once a moon...and again, getting friendly with enemy warriors is worse.
So it's not like she moved away. It's more like she died or went into another dimension...
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on Apr 30, 2024 20:44:42 GMT -5
So yeah Tawny was in a tough situation as an apprentice but it's still feels like a betrayal
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Post by Moonblazer on May 1, 2024 8:56:24 GMT -5
I will still forever defend Tawnypelt’s decision to leave Thunderclan. When grown adult cats are openly judging and berating a kit for being born to a father she never had a say in, I wouldn’t take it either. Just because Brambleclaw decided to stay and had to be forced to unfairly prove he wasn’t his father, doesn’t mean that Tawnypelt has to do the same. She left to join a Clan that wouldn’t judge her for anything but her own actions, and she made Shadowclan her home, and never wavered in her love and loyalty for it. I’m not shocked she left Thunderclan at all.
Honestly, every Tigerstar kit besides Brambleclaw deserved more spotlight and attention, but Tawnypelt never did nothing at all. She was plenty prevalent in the Sol arc, plenty prevalent in defending her mate and handling her justified anger towards Shadowclan after Rowanstar’s death in AVOS, and has remained a steady pillar of Shadowclan even now. I loved her Novella, it’s one of my favorites, but I think they should and could have done even more with her.
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Post by cygna on May 1, 2024 9:50:53 GMT -5
I will still forever defend Tawnypelt’s decision to leave Thunderclan. When grown adult cats are openly judging and berating a kit for being born to a father she never had a say in, I wouldn’t take it either. Just because Brambleclaw decided to stay and had to be forced to unfairly prove he wasn’t his father, doesn’t mean that Tawnypelt has to do the same. She left to join a Clan that wouldn’t judge her for anything but her own actions, and she made Shadowclan her home, and never wavered in her love and loyalty for it. I’m not shocked she left Thunderclan at all. Honestly, every Tigerstar kit besides Brambleclaw deserved more spotlight and attention, but Tawnypelt never did nothing at all. She was plenty prevalent in the Sol arc, plenty prevalent in defending her mate and handling her justified anger towards Shadowclan after Rowanstar’s death in AVOS, and has remained a steady pillar of Shadowclan even now. I loved her Novella, it’s one of my favorites, but I think they should and could have done even more with her. So... choosing to stand by someone who kills innocents & in part is also responsible for the death of your half-brother is the better alternative to Fireheart judging you a little I guess. |
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Post by Moonblazer on May 1, 2024 10:09:07 GMT -5
I will still forever defend Tawnypelt’s decision to leave Thunderclan. When grown adult cats are openly judging and berating a kit for being born to a father she never had a say in, I wouldn’t take it either. Just because Brambleclaw decided to stay and had to be forced to unfairly prove he wasn’t his father, doesn’t mean that Tawnypelt has to do the same. She left to join a Clan that wouldn’t judge her for anything but her own actions, and she made Shadowclan her home, and never wavered in her love and loyalty for it. I’m not shocked she left Thunderclan at all. Honestly, every Tigerstar kit besides Brambleclaw deserved more spotlight and attention, but Tawnypelt never did nothing at all. She was plenty prevalent in the Sol arc, plenty prevalent in defending her mate and handling her justified anger towards Shadowclan after Rowanstar’s death in AVOS, and has remained a steady pillar of Shadowclan even now. I loved her Novella, it’s one of my favorites, but I think they should and could have done even more with her. So... choosing to stand by someone who kills innocents & in part is also responsible for the death of your half-brother is the better alternative to Fireheart judging you a little I guess. If you think it was just Fireheart making uncalled for judgements on the equivalent of a child, then we were not reading the same books. The elders were openly jabbing comments at her, Goldenflower was clearly aware of cats in the Clan judging her kits to the point that she had to pull Fireheart aside to make it clear she was aware. Nobody’s saying that joining the Clan Tigerstar was leading was some brilliant idea, but seeing as he was leader, yes, it was much easier for Tawnypelt to get into Shadowclan than if she would have left to join Riverclan instead, which honestly I wouldn’t have minded that either. What’s telling to me is the fact that Tawnypelt easily chose to remain in her new Clan after her father’s death and chose having no kin and working to fit into her new home over returning to the Clan that openly judged her. It was never as simple as Fireheart being judgmental |
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Post by vectoring34 on May 1, 2024 10:29:46 GMT -5
I don't see how thinking Needletail is dead after being carried off by a bird of prey makes her insensitive. It's a pretty natural assumption.
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Post by Hollyfall on May 1, 2024 11:54:18 GMT -5
I don't see how thinking Needletail is dead after being carried off by a bird of prey makes her insensitive. It's a pretty natural assumption. I've seen the argument that she and ShadowClan didn't try to check and verify that Needletail was dead at all, but as you said it's a pretty reasonable and natural assumption to assume she was dead considering all the other times a cat has been taken by a large bird. I believe there was a thread on here discussing it? Can't seem to find it though. |
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Post by dandelions on May 1, 2024 12:09:17 GMT -5
I don't see how thinking Needletail is dead after being carried off by a bird of prey makes her insensitive. It's a pretty natural assumption. It is a fair assumption on Tawnypelt's part, but from Needlepaw's perspective at the time, she was fully expecting her clan to be worried and searching from her. To get back home and hear from Tawnypelt that there had not even been a search, and to realize everyone had already moved on from her supposed death, does come off as insensitive in my opinion. That's a clan-wide reaction, not just Tawnypelt, but it feels notable that the adult entrusted with her training, whose watch the supposedly fatal accident occurred on, was already back to business as usual. Also, I'm digressing from the owl incident, but I think it's worth considering in the larger claim that Tawnypelt was a bad mentor: Tawnypelt is not characterized generously during these bonus chapters. Needlepaw is specifically only a few days into training, and Tawnypelt is already snappy and impatient with her, with only scattered moments of care for her apprentice. It's more or less the standard difficult/frustrated mentor dynamic we see multiple times in AVoS (as with Molewhisker/Alderpaw and Twigbranch/Flypaw). What we get outside of the bonus chapters doesn't paint her much better, there's very little display of effort in working with Needlepaw hands-on. I don't pretend to know what the writers were going for with that, but at the very least it feels like they weren't actively framing Tawnypelt as a good mentor. |
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Post by Katanaheart on May 1, 2024 13:43:17 GMT -5
It’s rather strange they chose Tawnypelt from this role as a bad mentor certainly wouldn’t have been able to mentor so many apprentices successfully.
Unless Rowanstar misjudged his mate’s ability to connect with a rambunctious apprentice, such as Needlepaw, her mentorship with Needlepaw feels more like an outlier, to me.
(Also never got to read any of these bonus chapters, so this is more speculation based on Tawnypelt’s apprentices before and after Needlepaw.)
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Post by Moonblazer on May 1, 2024 13:48:28 GMT -5
It’s rather strange they chose Tawnypelt from this role as a bad mentor certainly wouldn’t have been able to mentor so many apprentices successfully. Unless Rowanstar misjudged his mate’s ability to connect with a rambunctious apprentice, such as Needlepaw, her mentorship with Needlepaw feels more like an outlier, to me. (Also never got to read any of these bonus chapters, so this is more speculation based on Tawnypelt’s apprentices before and after Needlepaw.) Yeah, this is my mindset on it. If the writers wanted to suddenly make Tawnypelt seem like a bad mentor, you’d think she wouldn’t have the most of any Shadowclan cat I can think of by now. Heck, she might tie with Rosepetal for the most apprentices, so that doesn’t make sense to me that she’d suddenly be a bad mentor. But. Then again. This is AVOS, the crowning victor of character butchering to elevate other characters, so. Who knows? |
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 1, 2024 15:08:05 GMT -5
Like everyone else said, Tawnypelt had a right to leave and reclaiming names is a thing that literally happens all the time. Never mind that at the time Tigerheart was born, it'd gotten to the point where Tigerclaw was treated as a ghost story, and even Firestar himself acknowledged that the Clans had lost a strong warrior after he'd been killed by Scourge. It's the same exact reason Brambleclaw was named, well, Bramblestarclaw, albeit in a far more blatant way.
Besides, how was she to know her son would live up to his namesake? And as for Juniperclaw and Stonestrike, keep in mind that Tawnypelt is largely a background character. She herself acknowledges she wasn't close with them, but considering how much longer her grandkits were alive for, maybe that changed after she returned from the Tribe, especially considering her novella was all about her relationship with her kin. We don't know. And especially in the case of this series, it's also not that unusual for grandparents to be distant and treat their kin as though they were Clanmates.
I definitely agree on the Needlepaw thing though, but I find the situation to be fascinating in general! Because yeah, from her perspective—especially as someone who'd only been an apprentice for a few days—Tawnypelt was tetchy to the point of seemingly not caring enough to search for her, and the one cat who did, he's immediately turned away just by virtue of being born an outsider. Their relationship never improves and Needlepaw even says that Tawnypelt was one of the adults who would gossip in front of the younger cats.
So then when the apprentices try to rebel twice, one of the older cats who agrees with Needlepaw about the rogues not being so bad is her own mother, Berryheart, who would then go on to join her daughter alongside her sister Cloverfoot, and note that this entire family is also related to Snowbird, who is noted by Beepaw to have at the very least told her and Yarrowpaw and ShadowClan cats can say whatever they like, who's to say this lesson didn't extend to the rest of her family as well?
I'm sorry, I get excited whenever I think about this lol! So much is implied, but nothing is ever done with it!
Anyway, back to Tawnypelt. I do feel like it's also worth noting that not only do we barely see her as a mentor for Starlingwing and Grassheart except for one scene for both, but just because she might've been a good mentor to them doesn't necessarily mean she would've been compatible with Needlepaw, who was noticably more shy and unsure when she first started out, and grew resentful only after Tree was rejected. I don't think it's necessarily a slight against Tawnypelt's character, though—especially if we assume Starlingwing's and Grassheart's experiences were completely different than how Needletail started out—but that Rowanstar missed the mark. It's just unfortunate this choice might've contributed to having horrible consequences.
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Post by flipwish on May 1, 2024 15:20:42 GMT -5
At least tawny's main hobby isn't denying medical help to those in need. Bramble still loses here to me
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Post by vectoring34 on May 1, 2024 15:44:24 GMT -5
I don't see how thinking Needletail is dead after being carried off by a bird of prey makes her insensitive. It's a pretty natural assumption. It is a fair assumption on Tawnypelt's part, but from Needlepaw's perspective at the time, she was fully expecting her clan to be worried and searching from her. To get back home and hear from Tawnypelt that there had not even been a search, and to realize everyone had already moved on from her supposed death, does come off as insensitive in my opinion. That's a clan-wide reaction, not just Tawnypelt, but it feels notable that the adult entrusted with her training, whose watch the supposedly fatal accident occurred on, was already back to business as usual. Also, I'm digressing from the owl incident, but I think it's worth considering in the larger claim that Tawnypelt was a bad mentor: Tawnypelt is not characterized generously during these bonus chapters. Needlepaw is specifically only a few days into training, and Tawnypelt is already snappy and impatient with her, with only scattered moments of care for her apprentice. It's more or less the standard difficult/frustrated mentor dynamic we see multiple times in AVoS (as with Molewhisker/Alderpaw and Twigbranch/Flypaw). What we get outside of the bonus chapters doesn't paint her much better, there's very little display of effort in working with Needlepaw hands-on. I don't pretend to know what the writers were going for with that, but at the very least it feels like they weren't actively framing Tawnypelt as a good mentor. Searches don't seem to be standard protocol for someone about to get killed by a raptor though. Firestar even thinks as much in a Dangerous Path, where he thinks in his mind that searching is useless when this happens and Swiftpaw agrees with him, with only Brackenfur bothering to do a search of any kind either. The clan was sad about it in the immediate aftermath, but they moved on quickly enough. Brackenfur DID try to find Snowkit, but it seems like his chase lasted maybe a few minutes at most before he gave up the moment he lost sight of the hawk. If simply breaking the sight line is enough to justify no further search, then it's no wonder no one else came after Needletail, seeing how Tawnypelt's testimony was such that she apparently thought Needletail had been killed on impact. Tawnypelt's characterization as a mentor is poor in the bonus chapter in general, but I think the owl thing when viewed in comparison to the Snowkit incident really is very benign and doesn't paint Tawnypelt in a poor light at all. |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 1, 2024 16:21:35 GMT -5
"Insensitive" might not be the right word. I think it would be very noble if ShadowClan did try to search for Needlepaw just in case by some miracle she was dropped or something, but choosing not to do so isn't a moral failure, IMO. It's just not going the extra mile.
Someone correct me if I'm remembering wrongly, but I believe Needlepaw was already sensitive regarding her place/value with the clan, so I could see how not being searched for would hit a sore point.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 1, 2024 16:28:40 GMT -5
"Insensitive" might not be the right word. I think it would be very noble if ShadowClan did try to search for Needlepaw just in case by some miracle she was dropped or something, but choosing not to do so isn't a moral failure, IMO. It's just not going the extra mile. Someone correct me if I'm remembering wrongly, but I believe Needlepaw was already sensitive regarding her place/value with the clan, so I could see how not being searched for would hit a sore point. Basically. I shared the full scene above, but regarding the part just prior to her getting nabbed: |
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Post by dandelions on May 1, 2024 17:10:03 GMT -5
It is a fair assumption on Tawnypelt's part, but from Needlepaw's perspective at the time, she was fully expecting her clan to be worried and searching from her. To get back home and hear from Tawnypelt that there had not even been a search, and to realize everyone had already moved on from her supposed death, does come off as insensitive in my opinion. That's a clan-wide reaction, not just Tawnypelt, but it feels notable that the adult entrusted with her training, whose watch the supposedly fatal accident occurred on, was already back to business as usual. Also, I'm digressing from the owl incident, but I think it's worth considering in the larger claim that Tawnypelt was a bad mentor: Tawnypelt is not characterized generously during these bonus chapters. Needlepaw is specifically only a few days into training, and Tawnypelt is already snappy and impatient with her, with only scattered moments of care for her apprentice. It's more or less the standard difficult/frustrated mentor dynamic we see multiple times in AVoS (as with Molewhisker/Alderpaw and Twigbranch/Flypaw). What we get outside of the bonus chapters doesn't paint her much better, there's very little display of effort in working with Needlepaw hands-on. I don't pretend to know what the writers were going for with that, but at the very least it feels like they weren't actively framing Tawnypelt as a good mentor. Searches don't seem to be standard protocol for someone about to get killed by a raptor though. Firestar even thinks as much in a Dangerous Path, where he thinks in his mind that searching is useless when this happens and Swiftpaw agrees with him, with only Brackenfur bothering to do a search of any kind either. The clan was sad about it in the immediate aftermath, but they moved on quickly enough. Brackenfur DID try to find Snowkit, but it seems like his chase lasted maybe a few minutes at most before he gave up the moment he lost sight of the hawk. If simply breaking the sight line is enough to justify no further search, then it's no wonder no one else came after Needletail, seeing how Tawnypelt's testimony was such that she apparently thought Needletail had been killed on impact. Tawnypelt's characterization as a mentor is poor in the bonus chapter in general, but I think the owl thing when viewed in comparison to the Snowkit incident really is very benign and doesn't paint Tawnypelt in a poor light at all. You're very right, series precedent doesn't support Tawnypelt/ShadowClan as a whole acting abnormally here, I'm glad you pointed that out. I do think the bonus chapters in isolation are trying to imply that the lack of search is wrong though, even if the rest of the series doesn't. Tree is implied to share Needlepaw's shock that they didn't search for her (he tells Tawnypelt and Cloverfoot, specifically with reproach, that Needlepaw had been waiting for them) so it's not just her in isolation. It's completely reasonable not to hold that against Tawnypelt though. I think it's more an issue of the writing framing events or characters inconsistently based on whatever fits the narrative best (which, on the broader topic of Tawnypelt, I think it's fair to say she was a victim of that a lot during AVoS). |
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Post by Katanaheart on May 1, 2024 18:11:25 GMT -5
To further add to Tree being shocked about it, could be his own background. This was a she-cat that the Clan didn’t bother to search for, after all. He’d have probably expected this lack of care in relation to a cat who was a Tom like himself but not a she-cat like Needlepaw.
I doubt this was actually factored in but I find this to be an interesting point.
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Post by Katanaheart on May 1, 2024 18:12:20 GMT -5
Thank you! I’ll likely read through this in a bit! (I still have the next chapter to read for Shadow today, though.) |
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Aroace
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not in good mental state rn sorry for inactivity
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Post by ᦓρ꠸ᥴꫀᠻꪖꪀᧁ on May 1, 2024 19:25:59 GMT -5
So... choosing to stand by someone who kills innocents & in part is also responsible for the death of your half-brother is the better alternative to Fireheart judging you a little I guess. That’s…not necessarily what Moonblazer was saying or what happened. Tawnypaw never “stood by” Tigerstar. Yes, she went to his clan. But did she support him? Not really. Tawnypelt never enjoyed watching her father be a mass murderer. If she did, why would she reject training with him in TNP?? And like Moonblazer already said above, Fireheart was not the only cat judging her. In fact, Fireheart was probably doing the least judging (and at least he has an excuse because of his trauma but whatever that’s not relevant to this conversation) out of those grown ass adults in camp. The elders were quite literally bullying her (keep in mind Tawnypaw atm is equal to like a thirteen year old) for being born. Of course she wanted to leave ThunderClan. And since she was leaving, where else would she go besides ShadowClan? She felt like she needed to leave, and that was the only logical place to go to that would take her in. |
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on May 2, 2024 0:13:44 GMT -5
She abandoned her mother and brother, who were (probably, in Goldenflower's case) going through the same thing as she did.
Sure she has the right to leave but imagine how hurt her mother and brother felt. No matter how badly written Bramblestar is, he was a child whose sister decided she would rather treat him and her own mother like an enemy then stick with them through hardship. It's really as simple as that for me, I don't like that she abandoned her family. Yes it was hard for her but she ABANDONED HER FAMILY. She didn't just move away, they're not guaranteed to see her again except at a gathering if they're lucky enough to be picked on the patrol the same moon she is. I can't stand what she did because she abandoned her family. That's really the core of it for me. No matter how bad things were for her she abandoned her family and that just is something I have difficulty abiding by.
And, well, remember she didn't join ShadowClan. She joined TigerClan. The clan her father was leader of. You do not join the clan your tyrant father controls expect to be your own cat. Tigerstar sure didn't think so. Honestly I chalk it up to writing inconsistency that Tawny rejected him later.
I know this sounds harsh on Tawny (TBH it is, but I wouldn't dislike her if the writers would just acknowledge how the wrote her. She made some questionable choices. Acknowledge it, Erins.)
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Post by cygna on May 2, 2024 0:24:47 GMT -5
She abandoned her mother and brother, who were (probably, in Goldenflower's case) going through the same thing as she did. Sure she has the right to leave but imagine how hurt her mother and brother felt. No matter how badly written Bramblestar is, he was a child whose sister decided she would rather treat him and her own mother like an enemy then stick with them through hardship. It's really as simple as that for me, I don't like that she abandoned her family. Yes it was hard for her but she ABANDONED HER FAMILY. She didn't just move away, they're not guaranteed to see her again except at a gathering if they're lucky enough to be picked on the patrol the same moon she is. I can't stand what she did because she abandoned her family. That's really the core of it for me. No matter how bad things were for her she abandoned her family and that just is something I have difficulty abiding by. And, well, remember she didn't join ShadowClan. She joined TigerClan. The clan her father was leader of. You do not join the clan your tyrant father controls expect to be your own cat. Tigerstar sure didn't think so. Honestly I chalk it up to writing inconsistency that Tawny rejected him later. I know this sounds harsh on Tawny (TBH it is, but I wouldn't dislike her if the writers would just acknowledge how the wrote her. She made some questionable choices. Acknowledge it, Erins.) Honestly, despite the fact abandoning your mother & brother & willingly becoming their enemy for your tyrant father is scummy, it's the thing I give her the most leeway for because she was young and kids don't think everything through Naming her kid after Tigerstar is unforgivable though. It's plain insulting to his victims for her to play up Tigerstar's virtues despite the fact he literally tried to kill 2 innocent children she later became friends with & killed one of her friend's mentor. I don't care if Tigerstar is her father, treated her well, & was good at some stuff, what did she think Mistystar & Stonefur would feel? Obviously nothing because Tawnypelt has proven herself to be a selfish cat with little regard for the feelings of others. As for the DF training, it makes no sense she'd reject Tigerstar only to name her kid after him in the next arc. Honestly, considering she went to join ShadowClan despite knowing her father was bad while her brother rejected him, I don't understand why they swapped Bramble & Tawny's characterizations in the next arc with Brambleclaw training with Tigerstar & Tawnypelt rejecting him. Like... I understand Brambleclaw wanting to get close to Hawkfrost but arc 1 Brambleclaw would not touch Tigerstar in a 6 foot pole while Tawnypelt would jump to his side when things get tough. |
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Post by Hollyfall on May 2, 2024 1:10:50 GMT -5
Dunno man I think it speaks more on the fact about how poorly ThunderClan was treating her to make her want to go join her father, who, while a murderous tyrant, would clearly accept her and wouldn't tolerate ShadowClan disrespecting her at all. Bramblestar was willing to put in the work to be trusted, despite the constant rumours, and Goldenflower doesn't really have a reason to leave and she was a victim as much as her kits were. As for naming her son after her father, like, I can get why it might be considered a slap in the face to his victims, though at that point Stonefur and Feathertail were dead, and Mistystar and Stormfur lived in different Clans and we just don't see their reaction to it at all to even know if they care or not. Though by that point in the timeline, Tigerstar and his deeds in life effectively a ghost story and I honestly think it makes sense she would want to move on from it all now that she's proven she's loyal to ShadowClan and now starting a family.
I'd also consider it in character for Tawnypelt to do it as well, honestly. She's stubborn, blunt, and does what she wants. There's also a precedent for it since Brambleclaw was named after their father as well (I'm talking in-universe specifically here, since chronologically that came first) to acknowledge that struggling with Tigerstar's legacy was something he experienced, while also highlighting his more honorable traits. So maybe she got the idea from there? Tigerstar II looks exactly like the first one as it is, so maybe that's what she was going for. If your son looks like the spitting image of your father, I can see why she'd do it and try to alleviate some of the inevitable tension. Even Tigerpaw says that Tigerstar I was a great warrior, for all his faults.
Besides, it's not like the announcement of a Tigerkit was met with universal praise. Especially when that kit became leader. Cats had a very mixed reception to both instances.
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Post by cygna on May 2, 2024 3:17:38 GMT -5
Dunno man I think it speaks more on the fact about how poorly ThunderClan was treating her to make her want to go join her father, who, while a murderous tyrant, would clearly accept her and wouldn't tolerate ShadowClan disrespecting her at all. Bramblestar was willing to put in the work to be trusted, despite the constant rumours, and Goldenflower doesn't really have a reason to leave and she was a victim as much as her kits were. As for naming her son after her father, like, I can get why it might be considered a slap in the face to his victims, though at that point Stonefur and Feathertail were dead, and Mistystar and Stormfur lived in different Clans and we just don't see their reaction to it at all to even know if they care or not. Though by that point in the timeline, Tigerstar and his deeds in life effectively a ghost story and I honestly think it makes sense she would want to move on from it all now that she's proven she's loyal to ShadowClan and now starting a family. I'd also consider it in character for Tawnypelt to do it as well, honestly. She's stubborn, blunt, and does what she wants. There's also a precedent for it since Brambleclaw was named after their father as well (I'm talking in-universe specifically here, since chronologically that came first) to acknowledge that struggling with Tigerstar's legacy was something he experienced, while also highlighting his more honorable traits. So maybe she got the idea from there? Tigerstar II looks exactly like the first one as it is, so maybe that's what she was going for. If your son looks like the spitting image of your father, I can see why she'd do it and try to alleviate some of the inevitable tension. Even Tigerpaw says that Tigerstar I was a great warrior, for all his faults. Besides, it's not like the announcement of a Tigerkit was met with universal praise. Especially when that kit became leader. Cats had a very mixed reception to both instances. "It's ok that my father kills innocents but I'll still stick by him & honor him though my son because he was nice to me & I don't care about anyone else's feelings except mine" I don't get how naming your son after a murderer alleviates any tension. Tigerheart's appearance matters far less & affected him far less than Brambleclaw's did. Tigerheartstar would've been fine with literally any other name but Tawnypelt cares more about her murderer father than his victims. Yeah many of them are dead, but it's still disrespectful af to honor him despite what he did to them. |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 2, 2024 10:36:17 GMT -5
I do agree that Tawnypelt naming her tigerclone son after her father was probably not the best move. I get her reasoning, but it was a bit soon to be “breaking the stigma” of the prefix. It had only been, what, five years since Tigerstar died?
EDIT: Wasn’t the purpose behind naming him Tigerkit specifically to break the hold of terror the name had over the clans? I don’t remember it having anything to do with honoring her father.
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on May 2, 2024 11:14:08 GMT -5
I do agree that Tawnypelt naming her tigerclone son after her father was probably not the best move. I get her reasoning, but it was a bit soon to be “breaking the stigma” of the prefix. It had only been, what, five years since Tigerstar died? EDIT: Wasn’t the purpose behind naming him Tigerkit specifically to break the hold of terror the name had over the clans? I don’t remember it having anything to do with honoring her father. Acouple of the Erins said it did (TBF Vicky claimed that Tawny left ThunderClan because she liked her father and wanted to be with him. I may be critical of Tawny but that's clearly incorrect LOL) I do find it worrisome that in Eclipse Tigerpaw has apparently heard good things about Tigerstar I much to Lionblaze's discomfort |
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Post by Rainstorm1026 on May 2, 2024 11:14:34 GMT -5
In story we never find out what her reasoning was
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