I have Sky!

Sure. Though upon re-reading it seems more...one-sided on Nightheart's part? Their only interactions before this were more or less Sunbeam fawning over how handsome Nightheart is and Nightheart thinking Sunbeam's the most wonderful thing ever because she treated him like an equal and not his superior (most of which happened on their sidequest chapters earlier). Seems obvious they'll hook up since Sunbeam's now dealing with Blazefire and Lightleap getting together, and Nightheart already has a crush on her. The series isn't subtle about these kinds of things, but we'll see.  

When Nightheart sneaks off to ShadowClan and after Blazefire goes to get Sunbeam: 





Talking about Tigerstar possibly invading RiverClan and Fringe




After a ShadowClan patrol comes and Sunbeam tells him to go home: 


And this is the beginning of the chapter when he leaves ThunderClan: 

Thank you for more context (and this whole thread)! Obviously still gonna read it all myself, because I'm enjoying even just seeing some of the buildup, but if anything, it's confirmed my suspicions. 

I don't think Tigerheart intended to take over like his leaders before him, à la Brokenstar, Tigerstar, etc. and install himself as RiC's permanent leader.

However...that doesn't matter now, considering where we currently stand. The end result is the same: he has taken them over by force. Nobody wants him there. They said that multiple times, both politely (Owlnose), curtly (Mothwing), angrily (a bunch of other cats), and rudely (everyone else left who hadn't spoken up at that point). They were all direct and did not mince words. He ignored that to impose what he wanted, and damned the cats affected.

This was an invasion, as far as RiverClan was concerned, and are they wrong when we see how it ended? He was officially trespassing and carrying himself in a way that Tigerstar before him had. It was threatening. And obviously, it's not just cats saying, "He's Tigerstar's kin," and overreacting when he's doing something like we've seen happen to the Tiger family before. Tigerheart is actually acting like Tigerstar -- so much so that Tawnypelt, of all cats, called him out on it, and many other cats predicted he would do this exact same thing, because it's just such a previous-Tigerstar-like move that it's ridiculous.

I'm not surprised Sunbeam was under the impression they weren't going to be fighting...yet we can clearly see that while she had no such thoughts about it, Tigerheart expected resistance and brought a fighting force. This wasn't him escorting Puddleshine or Shadowsight there and offering to leave them in RiC long enough to help guide Frostpaw since Mothwing couldn't do it herself in matters to do with StC. Tigerheart may've started out with a pawful of cats when Frostpaw first saw them, but he gave the signal for more of his warriors to appear. If this was good-intentioned, he would've left and came back later with another plan. Instead, he has a fighting force...why would he do that if you are literally just there to advise? Why not ask to speak on neutral territory while bringing along Tree as the Clans' official mediator (jfc, such a useless position, I swear) and talk this out? Where are Puddleshine and Shadowsight, even now, to mediate? Medicine cats are usually brought with patrols to accompany enemy leaders and/or warriors as a true show of goodwill and a reassurance they meant no harm. It's telling to me that he didn't bring either of them!

Nah, Tigerheart knew this was going to happen this way and a fight would break out. At no point was he horrified by the fact that Duskfur was ready for him to kill her to take over. It wasn't until Splashtail told her to stop did Tigerheart take his claws off her throat...that's a sign that he was ready to kill, imo. It's clear that he was going to do this regardless by any means possible and entirely against RiC's (expected) will...which is so stupid, because why would they then want to listen to him? This just breeds resentment and hostility toward ShC, and is that the sort of relationship he wants? He said he's so concerned about sharing borders with a leaderless Clan, but now you have a Clan of cats who hate you on your border, and you took their home and essentially their territory. He (wrongfully?) assumed they were withholding catmint before because they were being selfish, but oh, just wait until later if you need their help. Repeatedly, he's insulted that cats are saying he's acting like his namesake, but he keeps doing it, anyway! What the hell does he expect?

What happens if Owlnose (or whoever the next leader is) does come into his own and is accepted by StarClan, gains nine lives properly, and now holds a grudge against Tigerheart? This is something that can affect the Clans for literally years to come. Relationships between their Clans have tanked now, which is pretty impressive, considering RiC is pretty chill and stays out of issues. Do you want another Onestar on your hands, and how he withheld a very important herb for selfish reasons because he hated ShC with every fiber of his being? Because this is how you get a Onestar. He never let ShC forget their mistakes and stuff their previous leaders did...now Tigerheart is following the same path as the ShC leaders before him (except Rowanstar, because the poor guy never stood a chance; he was too reasonable for a ShC cat to last long).

I swear, Tigerheart is bonkers, but he sure is entertaining, so...there's that.

I dunno...I've actually read the book and Sunbeam seems to have feelings for him in some capacity. It definitely starts happening on the catmint quest. At one point hey fall asleep together.

this is similar to what i said about root x bristle, and look how that was played off. they played it off as if it was a good relationship and they expected us to root for it despite how rushed it was on britstle's end. i liked the headcanon that bristle forced herself to like root bc she was rejected by stem, and she was pushing herself to like root, just bc root liked her, and at that point, she would  take anyone as long as they liked her...but no? they played it as if bristle's feelings were 100% genuine and it made NO sense, and as a result, i will forever hate the pairing and find it a horrible narrative decision to force bristle into it (from my POV anyway, i know im in the minority in how i perceive root x bristle but whatever).

so i want to believe the same for night x sun bc i agree with what u said about it, but since the series is writing horrible romances lately, i wont be surprised anymore if they do end up being genuine despite little work being put in to make it make sense for both cats as individuals, not jsut as a couple.

i also think night is relying heavily on sunbeam for his identity problem, bc like u said, it comes off as if he's worshipping her for being the "only one" to see him for him, etc. and him relying so much on her to find out who he is or where he belongs, will end up l ike how the erins once said feather x crow would end up if she lived (as in, feather would have broken up with crow, etc.).

i can see the same happening for sunbeam. i thought bristle would use root as a replacement/rebound for stem since she got rejected and was desperate to have someone love her back, so she just pushed herself to portray "i like root, yes  i do,  its not rushed at all, i swear." so the idea of sunbeam using night as a new distraction or rebound also makes sense.

Of course! I'm happy to provide more context and/or pictures of the book if anyone asks. 

But anyways, genuinely could not have said it better myself! Also worth mentioning that Tigerstar arrived in RiverClan before finding out Owlnose stepped down from leadership (and yet still forces him to remain leader?), and doesn't even listen to any of their Clan's authority figures (Owlnose, Splashtail, Mothwing, and a handful of their senior warriors like Mallownose, Sneezecloud, and Duskfur) when he's told to leave. He went there under the assumption Fidgetflake had been successful in helping and Owlnose was a recognized and "proper" leader. Inexperienced obviously, but that's hardly Owlnose's fault and it's certainly easier to just give the poor guy some pointers on leadership. 

Yet in Sunbeam's prior chapter, Tigerstar's infuriated that Berryheart accused him of wanting to invade RiverClan.  Personally I'm leaning more into the idea that he's using Rowankit's death to fuel his motivations; which is then fueled even more when he finds out RiverClan had the herb Rowankit needed. He's grieving and that's understandable, but it doesn't justify what he's doing. He is correct in that RiverClan's in shambles and Mothwing can't run the show herself, but again, it doesn't in any way excuse beating them into submission and weakening them so they practically have no choice but to accept. That, and using his show of warriors in the scattered RiverClan camp as intimidation with the guise of peace. 

The ShadowClan cats who were openly against it (Tawnypelt and Berryheart) actually were in the battle itself and didn't seem to have any qualms about fighting. I'm interested in seeing the other Clans' reactions as the other three were rather against it, and the obvious disdain that's going to be festering in RiverClan now that a foreign leader has taken over their home. 

I really really want you guys to be right. Truly. NightxSun is awful.

Hollyfall Thank you for the context.

Also, general thoughts, I don't think Sun x Night is that awful from what I'm reading, to be honest.

If anything it seems like their relationship might function just fine as a qpr of the sort, imo. Nightheart has questioned if it's possible for someone to change clans for other reasons besides joining a mate. And Sunbeam treats him equally and accepts him for the person he is. If he does catch feelings for her, I wouldn't be surprised, sure, but to call it "obsessive" when it's only a few chapters is a bit much. If anything it's "fleeting". And I don't see how it correlates to BristleRoot, which had at least over 4 books of development and two confession scenes.

If we're staying on track with the other realistic themes so far in this arc, the idea of finding solace in another person because "they treat you normally and accept you" is a common trope, and them offering a type of safe haven is even more in that narrative. Nightheart finding comfort in his relationship with Sunbeam isn't necessarily inherently toxic imo, and the same thing vice versa with Sunbeam to him. I also find it strange to claim that Sunbeam moving on to Nightheart is considered a rebound, but that's not the case for Blazefire toward Lightleap apparently? Or the fact that Blazefire is clearly comforting Lightleap, who finds solace in Blazefire during her grief and the two of them officially get together (but also confirming they did lie previously about their relationship to Sunbeam).

Also Nightheart's thoughts as he returns back to camp if anything feel whimsical, he thinks he has a chance to start new, and would also like the idea of possibly being mates with Sunbeam. It doesn't mean they'll immediately jump into a relationship, even if they did it'll probably just be because of the clan changing rules at first to prevent suspicion, but then it would be relationship bluff territory at that point. And it's not impossible for an actual relationship develop from that, there's plenty of media examples, a very popular one that I personally like is from a manga called Nisekoi, or a more recent example would be Spy x Family tbh. These are basically called "romantic fake-real turns".

I'll need to look at the context further when I read the book myself, but I think even then, that's not a lot to go off of if we're talking about leaving everything you know behind to go join another family!! Unless he got a direct confession of feelings, it's so strange for me to imagine he took that last conversation as her saying, "Yes, we will be mates if you join ShC!"

We're seeing her thought process, but Night hasn't. 

Here's when Sunbeam finds out about BlazexLight. Blazefire is actually pretty apologetic about it. 



But likewise it does feel like they're using each other as "rebounds" or just coping mechanisms. Sunbeam's best friends get together and lie to her about it, and she's still clearly getting over her breakup with Blazefire as it is. After she finds out, her immediate thought is of Nightheart. 

Nightheart feels unloved by his family and that nobody respects him (which...isn't true at all, he just chooses to ignore it, but I digress), and so they find comfort in each other. This doesn't seem like a healthy relationship at all and I strongly doubt it'll last beyond book four if that. Personally I'm hoping they'll both realize there's just no foundation for their relationship and they're both using one another to cope. That would be an interesting route. 

Hmm I should probably word it better.

What I meant is that it feels like the only reason Sunbeam is getting rebound suspicion is because of her being a POV, and not Blazefire. Blazefire was in a mutual relationship with her at first, but ended things, and then started showing interest in Lightleap, which imo, is a much faster timeline than Sunbeam and Nightheart. So I just find it strange only Sunbeam gets criticism for it, when BlazeLight are also doing it, but worse. I suppose the other reasoning could be because of them being side characters as well, but the foundation of BlazeLight genuinely just rubs me the wrong way in general, so it's "meh" to me. And Lightleap also flirting with Nightheart so casually was weird territory too.

But that's just how I see it.

On another note.

I can't really say I see Sunbeam as the one rebounding even more now that I've read the context of the scene. Where it's a realization moment for her, that yeah she's initially upset but that's more to do with the fact her bestfriend and ex lied to her. However she also notes how she hasn't really been thinking about Blazefire much in general in comparison to Nightheart, and she's actually okay with BlazeLight, because she has other things to be more interested in now.

I think I'd consider it more of a rebound if we see Sunbeam comparing Nightheart and Blazefire in a negative light, similar to how Dovewing always compared Bumblestripe to Tigerheart because he wasn't "good enough", then I'll probably see it as a rebound. Bristlefrost also never did things like that when it came to Rootspring and Stemleaf, but she did have realistic moments of sadness due to being rejected after confessing, and that's normal.

If BlazeLight have had plenty of time to get together by time standards of the book, than I don't see why Sunbeam and Nightheart couldn't try out a relationship either, and have even more room to develop because they're POV characters. And neither of them seem to have any type of hesitance for commitment and want to genuinely try, so I think it's better to see where that goes.

It seems to be a 50/50 atm (but probably will change over time), some saying that BlazeLight don't owe Sunbeam an explanation and they can be happy with one another, etc. The other half saying it's weird that Sunbeam's ex and her best friend got together etc. Personally I'm in the latter, and to be honest I don't think BlazeLight should have been a thing in general if I'm being honest.

As for the comparison, I suppose you're right, but negative ones are more toxic imo. A person feeling happier because a relationship they're in is more fulfilling compared to their last one isn't inherently unhealthy, it's only an issue if it's a constant in that person's mentality. Dovewing constantly did both, either comparing Bumblestripe to Tigerheart because he wasn't good enough or because he was more convenient, and either way it was unhealthy and unfair to Bumblestripe. It came down to him just simply not being Tigerheart, which was the issue.

But yeah, this is why I said I think it's better to see where that goes, because judging it based on two books, and they're not even officially together yet, seems too harsh.

I can honestly see both sides of this though, but I do have disagreements with some things is all. I think the fact that they are putting romance between these two so soon does feel like a set up for the narrative plot, it's hard to ignore, but it's mostly because of the new rule, switching clans to be with a mate. However, at the same time, I also don't think its impossible for Sun and Night to develop genuine feelings for one another either because of their new circumstances. Regardless though, there will be conflict, because of other issues like the current statuses of ShadowClan, etc.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, if I'm explaining myself properly here.

I see what you mean, and I agree, it does feel like too soon considering this trope was just used with BristleRoot, even though it had a more tragic ending. But I think the idea of a cautionary tale would also work really well too, so that way it can set up narrative limits to the new rule, and what is seen as "fair" vs "frowned upon" or just flat out "bias" ya know? The story can flesh out the possibilities and explore how different relationships are affected by the new rule, which we kinda already see. When it comes to Fringe and Spire having a healthy clan switch, and then how family can either react positively (Sunbeam) or negatively (Berryheart), and how that can lead to other circumstances (like the clan's overview and split opinions). There's potential here with SunNight, but I also wouldn't mind if they did work out in general. Considering their current circumstances, I wouldn't mind if they did end up together to be happier with one another, but I also don't want it to be cliché' and boring. So conflict, both inner and outer, would be cool.

Anyone have a death toll for this book? (I don’t have the time to read this thread right now but I want to find out who died)

Wow I thought way more cats where gonna die (especially in SkyClan)