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Post by Aqua on Sept 28, 2022 22:21:15 GMT -5
I see a lot of fans saying she's manipulative to Bramblestar. What do you think?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2022 22:26:30 GMT -5
I don't really think so. If anything I think it's Bramblestar. He's just really mean and bullying to Squirrelflight.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 28, 2022 22:26:36 GMT -5
I think there are moments when she has been emotionally manipulative (without strict intent). But I wouldn’t ascribe it as a major characteristic of hers.
Frankly, most characters have occasional moments of manipulation, its something that many people fall into without consciously realizing it.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 28, 2022 22:37:15 GMT -5
always was, always has been. the narrative just likes to manipulate things around her to make her come off as "right" in any given situation unless they flip it for contrived, shallow sympathy points instead
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2022 22:45:56 GMT -5
I think there are moments when she has been emotionally manipulative (without strict intent). But I wouldn’t ascribe it as a major characteristic of hers. Frankly, most characters have occasional moments of manipulation, its something that many people fall into without consciously realizing it. I think this is the best answer, personally.
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Post by SquipyCheetah on Sept 28, 2022 22:52:24 GMT -5
Honestly, a little bit. Both her and Brambles are.
This is coming from someone who loves both characters and their relationship with each other.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Sept 29, 2022 4:06:14 GMT -5
I think there are moments when she has been emotionally manipulative (without strict intent). But I wouldn’t ascribe it as a major characteristic of hers. Frankly, most characters have occasional moments of manipulation, its something that many people fall into without consciously realizing it. This. Gotta be realistic. I think more characters are worse than others. For me, I feel like Leafpool is more manipulative than Squirrelflight.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on Sept 29, 2022 4:11:46 GMT -5
I love Squirrelflight, but yes she can very much be. Especially in her SE
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Asexual
#A3E4D7
Name Colour
🍄🎶✨Brambleheart✨🎶🍄
its april which means its time to bow down to the 'tism
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🍄🎶✨Brambleheart✨🎶🍄 on Sept 29, 2022 7:33:48 GMT -5
...no? At least not on purpose? Like yeah, Squirrelflight has her flaws but she's not as horrible and manipulative as Bumblestripe!
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Heterosexual
#64c1a0
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𝙵𝚎𝚛𝚛𝚎𝚝𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚙
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Post by 𝙵𝚎𝚛𝚛𝚎𝚝𝚜𝚝𝚎𝚙 on Sept 29, 2022 8:17:21 GMT -5
I’d definitely say she’s at least a little bit manipulative.
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Post by Flamefrost on Sept 29, 2022 9:55:31 GMT -5
She can be, but I don't think that's a bad thing necessarily, she knows how to act to get what she wants. Let's not forget the whole reason Squirrelpaw went on the journey to begin with was because she was blackmailing Brambleclaw
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Bisexual
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BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Finally reading Wind!
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Sept 29, 2022 13:16:52 GMT -5
A little, occasionally. But not intentionally so, in my opinion. Then again, there are other characters who have exhibited manipulative behaviour as well, most of which much worse than her. Bramblestar also has such tendencies although the fandom (*or rather some parts of it*) seems to be divided on not only how guilty he is of that but also wether or not it is intentional on his part or not. This is a different topic altogether though.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2022 16:58:22 GMT -5
...no? At least not on purpose? Like yeah, Squirrelflight has her flaws but she's not as horrible and manipulative as Bumblestripe! How is Bumblestripe manipulative?
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Asexual
#A3E4D7
Name Colour
🍄🎶✨Brambleheart✨🎶🍄
its april which means its time to bow down to the 'tism
Pronouns: She/her, they/them
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Post by 🍄🎶✨Brambleheart✨🎶🍄 on Sept 29, 2022 19:54:01 GMT -5
...no? At least not on purpose? Like yeah, Squirrelflight has her flaws but she's not as horrible and manipulative as Bumblestripe! How is Bumblestripe manipulative? Bumblestripe took advantage of Dovewing's respect for older warriors by getting them to feel pity for him. By having Dovewing's OWN MOTHER and another respected warrior tell her that "she needs to give him a chance" or "just let him do this, he likes you" is either deliberate or inadvertent guilt tripping, which is a form of manipulation. Also taking advantage of Dovewing's vulnerable state after the death of a cat she held dear to ask for babies is also borderline manipulative. Manipulative may not be the right word but it is still worse than what Squirrelflight ever did.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 29, 2022 20:01:18 GMT -5
How is Bumblestripe manipulative? Bumblestripe took advantage of Dovewing's respect for older warriors by getting them to feel pity for him. By having Dovewing's OWN MOTHER and another respected warrior tell her that "she needs to give him a chance" or "just let him do this, he likes you" is either deliberate or inadvertent guilt tripping, which is a form of manipulation. Also taking advantage of Dovewing's vulnerable state after the death of a cat she held dear to ask for babies is also borderline manipulative. Manipulative may not be the right word but it is still worse than what Squirrelflight ever did. that is a headcanon that he sent them to talk to her on his behalf...that is literally not canon or proven anywhere. people r way too harsh on bumblestripe just bc of the narrative being in dovewing and tigerhearts favor all the time. its not his fault dovewing kept comparing him to tigerheart the whole time she was with him.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 29, 2022 20:22:02 GMT -5
Gonna be honest, the “don’t you love me anymore” line from her reawakened some bad memories. That came across as manipulative, even if that probably wasn’t her intention to be that way.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2022 20:37:29 GMT -5
Gonna be honest, the “don’t you love me anymore” line from her reawakened some bad memories. That came across as manipulative, even if that probably wasn’t her intention to be that way. Wasn't Squirrelflight insecure at the time when she wanted kits so she could feel important and needed? Bramblestar rejecting that prolly made her feel even more insecure when he said no, so to her she probably felt that he didn't love her anymore. She told him long before she wanted to feel important, he didn't do anything to help her feel important, hence the "Why don't you love me/care about my needs" line.
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Post by Aqua on Sept 29, 2022 20:42:20 GMT -5
How is Bumblestripe manipulative? Bumblestripe took advantage of Dovewing's respect for older warriors by getting them to feel pity for him. By having Dovewing's OWN MOTHER and another respected warrior tell her that "she needs to give him a chance" or "just let him do this, he likes you" is either deliberate or inadvertent guilt tripping, which is a form of manipulation. Also taking advantage of Dovewing's vulnerable state after the death of a cat she held dear to ask for babies is also borderline manipulative. Manipulative may not be the right word but it is still worse than what Squirrelflight ever did. *deep sigh* I know where you got this theory from, and Bumblestripe wasn't doing anything sneaky or manipulative with Dovewing. Just because a video from a YouTuber says so, doesn't mean it's true. It's not even written in the books! Bumblestripe has always truly cared about Dovewing, respected her, and even went as far as reporting to the clan leader that something was wrong when he was concerned about her. I suggest looking for evidence in the books to support your theory before saying that Bumblestripe acted manipulative when the evidence isn't even on the screen.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 29, 2022 20:55:07 GMT -5
I don't think so, or at the very least, it certainly isn't her intention to be most of the time.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 29, 2022 20:55:33 GMT -5
Gonna be honest, the “don’t you love me anymore” line from her reawakened some bad memories. That came across as manipulative, even if that probably wasn’t her intention to be that way. Wasn't Squirrelflight insecure at the time when she wanted kits so she could feel important and needed? Bramblestar rejecting that prolly made her feel even more insecure when he said no, so to her she probably felt that he didn't love her anymore. She told him long before she wanted to feel important, he didn't do anything to help her feel important, hence the "Why don't you love me/care about my needs" line. I agree that it came out of insecurity. But it was still manipulative. Insecure people can say some very manipulative things without realizing what they are saying. “Why aren’t you doing this or responding this way? This must mean you don’t care about me!”
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#a3c5e6
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 29, 2022 21:00:23 GMT -5
Gonna be honest, the “don’t you love me anymore” line from her reawakened some bad memories. That came across as manipulative, even if that probably wasn’t her intention to be that way. Wasn't Squirrelflight insecure at the time when she wanted kits so she could feel important and needed? Bramblestar rejecting that prolly made her feel even more insecure when he said no, so to her she probably felt that he didn't love her anymore. She told him long before she wanted to feel important, he didn't do anything to help her feel important, hence the "Why don't you love me/care about my needs" line. It's mentioned early on in SqH that they haven't been spending much time together lately, which is likely what started her mid-life crisis in the first place. Their relationship already being as rocky as it is certainly doesn't help, either (they really should've just stayed broken up).
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#a3c5e6
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 29, 2022 21:18:43 GMT -5
How is Bumblestripe manipulative? Bumblestripe took advantage of Dovewing's respect for older warriors by getting them to feel pity for him. By having Dovewing's OWN MOTHER and another respected warrior tell her that "she needs to give him a chance" or "just let him do this, he likes you" is either deliberate or inadvertent guilt tripping, which is a form of manipulation. Also taking advantage of Dovewing's vulnerable state after the death of a cat she held dear to ask for babies is also borderline manipulative. Manipulative may not be the right word but it is still worse than what Squirrelflight ever did. No? He didn't? Like, this is coming from someone who doesn't even like Bumblestripe, but there's literally no evidence to support what you're saying. In fact, this is all Whitewing says in relation to him. She doesn't even mention what they were talking about, and sure, we can assume it was about Bumblestripe's feelings for her, but again, there's no evidence. Also, what family member hasn't said the "oh, you would make such a cute couple" line at some point in their lives? It's super common. Not to mention Bumblestripe has never exactly made his feelings for Dovewing subtle. Who knows, maybe Whitewing was the first to bring it up like she did here.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 29, 2022 23:38:56 GMT -5
Bumblestripe took advantage of Dovewing's respect for older warriors by getting them to feel pity for him. By having Dovewing's OWN MOTHER and another respected warrior tell her that "she needs to give him a chance" or "just let him do this, he likes you" is either deliberate or inadvertent guilt tripping, which is a form of manipulation. Also taking advantage of Dovewing's vulnerable state after the death of a cat she held dear to ask for babies is also borderline manipulative. Manipulative may not be the right word but it is still worse than what Squirrelflight ever did. No? He didn't? Like, this is coming from someone who doesn't even like Bumblestripe, but there's literally no evidence to support what you're saying. In fact, this is all Whitewing says in relation to him. She doesn't even mention what they were talking about, and sure, we can assume it was about Bumblestripe's feelings for her, but again, there's no evidence. Also, what family member hasn't said the "oh, you would make such a cute couple" line at some point in their lives? It's super common. Not to mention Bumblestripe has never exactly made his feelings for Dovewing subtle. Who knows, maybe Whitewing was the first to bring it up like she did here. Tbh it doesnt even mean they talked about his feelings, could just be he made a cute comment about thinking she’s a great hunter or something and Whitewing deduced it herself.
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Post by cable on Sept 30, 2022 0:14:33 GMT -5
this thread has been shockingly tame so far. good job WG.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Sept 30, 2022 7:38:38 GMT -5
Gonna be honest, the “don’t you love me anymore” line from her reawakened some bad memories. That came across as manipulative, even if that probably wasn’t her intention to be that way. I remember this being mentioned in Moonkitti's video. With context of Squirrel's mental state at the time, she felt unwanted and insecure. That wasn't her trying to be manipulative, she meant it literally. That's just how Moonkitti (and I) perceived it though, and you can take it however you want. The books don't really line up and in general Squirrelflight's whole character is a gray area, so I'd take it with a grain of salt.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 30, 2022 8:04:09 GMT -5
Gonna be honest, the “don’t you love me anymore” line from her reawakened some bad memories. That came across as manipulative, even if that probably wasn’t her intention to be that way. I remember this being mentioned in Moonkitti's video. With context of Squirrel's mental state at the time, she felt unwanted and insecure. That wasn't her trying to be manipulative, she meant it literally. That's just how Moonkitti (and I) perceived it though, and you can take it however you want. The books don't really line up and in general Squirrelflight's whole character is a gray area, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. I would say I am not omitting context when I say this. I agree she wasn’t trying to be manipulative, but she still was. I have too many personal experiences (thanks family!) to not recognize as such. People who are insecure and in a “bad mental” state will say some very manipulative things while they feel like they are backed in a corner. It’s a fragile situation and not fun to deal with at all.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Sept 30, 2022 8:49:29 GMT -5
I remember this being mentioned in Moonkitti's video. With context of Squirrel's mental state at the time, she felt unwanted and insecure. That wasn't her trying to be manipulative, she meant it literally. That's just how Moonkitti (and I) perceived it though, and you can take it however you want. The books don't really line up and in general Squirrelflight's whole character is a gray area, so I'd take it with a grain of salt. I would say I am not omitting context when I say this. I agree she wasn’t trying to be manipulative, but she still was. I have too many personal experiences (thanks family!) to not recognize as such. People who are insecure and in a “bad mental” state will say some very manipulative things while they feel like they are backed in a corner. It’s a fragile situation and not fun to deal with at all. ohhh okay i see !! also sorry about your family
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Post by Moonblazer on Oct 1, 2022 7:01:26 GMT -5
Yeah, nah. Context and insecurity doesn’t make what Squirrelflight said any less manipulative emotionally. He very clearly is not comfortable with having more kits, the Clans are under a ton of stress and Bramblestar still had the responsibilities of a leader, which have to come before those of a mate at times. Her pulling the “you don’t love me then.” when he tells her no to having more kits was manipulative, whether or not she was intending to be. If it was Bramblestar pressuring her for kits and giving her the “well you must not love me then.” if she said no, there would be no defense for him, and honestly the same should be extended to Squirrelflight.
Claiming your partner doesn’t love you because they do not want any more children is a big ick. Emotional manipulation at its finest.
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Post by Bristleflight-bristlefrost! on Oct 1, 2022 8:44:26 GMT -5
A little bit but not intentional and mostly as a younger cat. Also the don't you love me line was her asking because bramblestar was not acting very loving so she thought he did not live her.
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Oct 1, 2022 19:44:59 GMT -5
She's definitely a little manipulative for reasons already stated.
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