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Post by Aqua on Oct 1, 2022 20:36:36 GMT -5
So from what I understand...
- Squirrelflight has lied to Brambleclaw about the Three - gets upset when he doesn't want to give her kits - blackmails him and forces him to let her go on a journey in TNP - gets pissed off at Brambleclaw when he spends time with his brother
Honestly? She's an asshole to Brambleclaw. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Squirrelflight is the abusive partner.
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Post by cable on Oct 1, 2022 20:57:50 GMT -5
So from what I understand... - Squirrelflight has lied to Brambleclaw about the Three - gets upset when he doesn't want to give her kits - blackmails him and forces him to let her go on a journey in TNP - gets pissed off at Brambleclaw when he spends time with his brother Honestly? She's an asshole to Brambleclaw. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Squirrelflight is the abusive partner. - she dropped the kits thing when she saw he wasnt into it. the only other times its brought up in conversation between them is when bramble brings it up to win an argument (which is equally as shitty a move as “dont you love me anymore”, by the way). otherwise, squirrel just thinks about wanting kits and feels upset. shes allowed to feel sad in her private time. - his brother who was very clearly sinister and evil, and bramble kept playing the “youre just prejudiced against us because of our dad!” card when bramble literally heard mudclaws confession and knew his brother was training in hell with their evil dead dad. neither partner is abusive, theyre just both insecure dumbasses with poor communication skills. i dont even care about this debate but some of these points leave out way too much context for me not to reply. again: i dont want to debate at all i just wanted to add context here. im not in a good headspace to argue right now, thanks
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Post by cable on Oct 1, 2022 21:00:57 GMT -5
anyways i guess its time to finally post my actual read on the situation
squirrel and bramble dont communicate at all. they have all these arguments and then “resolve” them but dont actually discuss what happened to grow from it. squirrel doesnt trust bramble to some extent and bramble is to a certain extent dismissive of squirrels thoughts and concerns. yes, one can argue their relationship is interesting because its realistic of a messed up toxic couple, but when its milked as a source of drama for book after book, it gets extremely tiring. yes squirrelflight can be manipulative but we’ve seen far worse than blackmail in this series. its not enough to set up my red flags, just enough for me to wish they had picked different mates. break up already good lord.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 2, 2022 5:49:29 GMT -5
So from what I understand... - Squirrelflight has lied to Brambleclaw about the Three - gets upset when he doesn't want to give her kits - blackmails him and forces him to let her go on a journey in TNP - gets pissed off at Brambleclaw when he spends time with his brother Honestly? She's an asshole to Brambleclaw. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Squirrelflight is the abusive partner. - she dropped the kits thing when she saw he wasnt into it. the only other times its brought up in conversation between them is when bramble brings it up to win an argument (which is equally as shitty a move as “dont you love me anymore”, by the way). otherwise, squirrel just thinks about wanting kits and feels upset. shes allowed to feel sad in her private time. - his brother who was very clearly sinister and evil, and bramble kept playing the “youre just prejudiced against us because of our dad!” card when bramble literally heard mudclaws confession and knew his brother was training in hell with their evil dead dad. neither partner is abusive, theyre just both insecure dumbasses with poor communication skills. i dont even care about this debate but some of these points leave out way too much context for me not to reply. again: i dont want to debate at all i just wanted to add context here. im not in a good headspace to argue right now, thanks No need to reply, but I'm giving clarification because there's some misinformation here about the order of events and what happened: --When it comes to the situation about Bramblestar getting upset with her about only thinking about kits, Bramblestar wasn't wrong. He points out the obvious, all Squirrelflight had on the brain was kits, even if it wasn't just herself wanting them.
The whole reason Squirrelflight was so obsessed with the Sisters, and putting her clan in danger, and the Sister's wellbeing over their own clan, was because of kits. Her "mid life crisis" was her being kit obsessed, because she felt that kits would make her loved again and feel wanted. Not because she wanted to have children for the sake of loving children, she just wanted to have more for her own sake, and at a horrible time. And at that point, I don't even blame Bramblestar for being frustrated with her foolery. Keep in mind that she's gone behind his back, lied to him, and even involved their daughter, while embarrassing them in front of their own clan by acting like a wayward naïve apprentice. All the while taking advantage of her position as deputy, and because they were mates. Bramblestar getting annoyed with her because she only has kits on the brain wasn't even a wrong statement. It was him pointing out just how foolish she was behaving for someone of her caliber, so I fail to see it nearly as emotionally manipulative as Squirrelflight's line. When her behavior was borderline similar to Finleap's. --As for the events of Starlight, I have to correct a few things here. Squirrelflight's distrust of Hawkfrost was nonsensical at the time considering this is before Hawkfrost even officially meets Tigerstar and before Mudclaw gets iced, she already didn't like him from the get-go and never gave him a chance. Bramblestar also wasn't gung-ho about defending his brother either, he very much believed his brother would treat him like any other warrior at the time, even be hostile, but he wasn't, which is why the two of them began to bond in the first place. They got closer before they even had training sessions in the Dark Forest. And it's noted both Bramblestar AND Hawkfrost were ambitious cats, who wanted to be deputy one day. Ambition is not an inherently "evil" thing, but it's because they were so eager, that later in the book, Tigerstar is able to finally connect with them in their dreams and take advantage of that. Hawkfrost was clearly sinister to the READERS, not the rest of the clan. This is why his character was deemed as a very manipulative, he was able to pull wool over the eyes of many, even his own leader. How is it that Bramblestar gets flack for it though, when it's his own flesh and blood? At the time Bramblestar was going through a lot in his life, compared to Squirrelflight who was much more in a place of privilege. Bramblestar had all but lost most connection to his actual blood kin at his point, and his mother was practically an elder at death's door. His sister was in another clan, and his father was deemed a treacherous dictator. And every time cats looked at him, that's all they saw, his father, even Firestar did at one point. He was discriminated against because of how much he looked like his father. Squirrelflight never, not once, ever came to Bramblestar with actual proof about her claims, and continuously harped him whenever he showed interest in wanting to get closer to his other kin, whom he didn't know much about. He has a right to get to know Hawkfrost, whether she approved or not. And just because Squirrelflight turned out to be right by the narrative in the end, it doesn't make how she behaved toward him was right. Quite literally during one of their arguments, Squirrelflight's best hunch was based off what Leafpool felt, but when asked about it by Bramblestar, she confirmed she never spoke to Leafpool about how she felt on it before confronting him. And the irony of it is that Leafpool had way more trust in faith toward Bramblestar figuring things out on his own than Squirrelflight, despite the omen (that Squirrel didn't know about at the time either). And followed by her argument with Bramblestar, she continuedly took unnecessary jabs at him, and this is still pre-DF training. Even for him simply just asking a curious question about other things, Squirrelflight turns on him aggressively and accusing him of being disloyal, so he leaves upset. Then she suddenly tells Leafpool she thinks he doesn't like her anymore?? (I wonder why.)
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Post by cable on Oct 2, 2022 16:46:56 GMT -5
ill probably reread arc 2 just to see how i feel about this. theres takes here i pretty vehemently disagree with but i can already tell im in a state where im going to escalate if i pursue this, and even if i did make the poor choice to continue i wouldnt be articulating well lmfao. probably better for me to put the keyboard down and forget about fictional cat relationships until im in a better headspace
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
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All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 2, 2022 16:55:30 GMT -5
ill probably reread arc 2 just to see how i feel about this. theres takes here i pretty vehemently disagree with but i can already tell im in a state where im going to escalate if i pursue this, and even if i did make the poor choice to continue i wouldnt be articulating well lmfao. probably better for me to put the keyboard down and forget about fictional cat relationships until im in a better headspace I actually made a topic a few months ago that basically documents most all of Squirrelflight's scenes every time she disagrees with someone. If you want, I'd be more than happy to send a link to it if that's an easier reference.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 2, 2022 17:59:47 GMT -5
ill probably reread arc 2 just to see how i feel about this. theres takes here i pretty vehemently disagree with but i can already tell im in a state where im going to escalate if i pursue this, and even if i did make the poor choice to continue i wouldnt be articulating well lmfao. probably better for me to put the keyboard down and forget about fictional cat relationships until im in a better headspace Do what you have to do, put your health first. I hope you feel better soon.
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Post by Aqua on Oct 5, 2022 19:05:19 GMT -5
Boop.
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Post by Punkpaw on Oct 5, 2022 22:52:04 GMT -5
Two things.
1) "A little", by definition, slots under "Yes". In a poll where two answers are "yes" and "no", "a little" just doesn't really have a point. If the other options were "very" and "not at all", then sure.
2) Getting your mate and clan to assist you in raising your sister's kids without telling them the truth is nothing if not manipulating them to do something you need them to do.
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Post by dahliadove - #1 nightpelt fan on Oct 6, 2022 4:40:29 GMT -5
Two things. 1) "A little", by definition, slots under "Yes". In a poll where two answers are "yes" and "no", "a little" just doesn't really have a point. If the other options were "very" and "not at all", then sure. 2) Getting your mate and clan to assist you in raising your sister's kids without telling them the truth is nothing if not manipulating them to do something you need them to do. This. I know Squirrel has done other things that can be interpreted easily as manipulative, but I keep seeing people use the Three's heritage as Bramble defense. Please note that the lie was based around her sister breaking the warrior code. It wasn't Squilf's fault, and it's not that she doesn't trust him, it's that it was a lie based around Leafpool's codebreak. Bramble was the clan deputy at the time. Leafpool and Squirrelflight should've discussed whether they should include Brambleclaw in the lie, but god forbid anyone in Warriors communicate with each other.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 6, 2022 7:07:56 GMT -5
Two things. 1) "A little", by definition, slots under "Yes". In a poll where two answers are "yes" and "no", "a little" just doesn't really have a point. If the other options were "very" and "not at all", then sure. 2) Getting your mate and clan to assist you in raising your sister's kids without telling them the truth is nothing if not manipulating them to do something you need them to do. This. I know Squirrel has done other things that can be interpreted easily as manipulative, but I keep seeing people use the Three's heritage as Bramble defense. Please note that the lie was based around her sister breaking the warrior code. It wasn't Squilf's fault, and it's not that she doesn't trust him, it's that it was a lie based around Leafpool's codebreak. Bramble was the clan deputy at the time. Leafpool and Squirrelflight should've discussed whether they should include Brambleclaw in the lie, but god forbid anyone in Warriors communicate with each other. But what Squirrelflight did regardless is by definition manipulation. Her and Leafpool for that matter. It doesn't matter if her actions were based around Leafpool's actions, she still went along with it knowingly instead of actually telling the truth. And it's because of this that they broke the connections of trusts they had with their clanmates for so long, and why so many of them were upset. They violated the integrity of ThunderClan by taking advantage their clanmates through lies. "Manipulation in psychology is a behavior designed to exploit, control, or otherwise influence others to one’s advantage." Leafpool broke the code (the law they lived by), ended up pregnant, and Squirrelflight helped cover up for her sister's code breaking, and became a willing participant. Both lied to their clanmates, their father whom was also the clan leader, and the kits in question who were living a lie. Squirrelflight lied to her mate which is the equivalent of her husband, while Leafpool didn't even bother to tell Crowfeather about the existence of his kits. And both of them had plenty of opportunities to tell the truth. Both of them were manipulative, even if it wasn't with malicious intent. Saying Squirrelflight isn't at fault here is like saying someone shouldn't be held accountable despite helping the perpetrator in question and even going as far as to cover up their actions and lie moons. Squirrelflight would still be a technical "accessory to crime" when it came to Leafpool breaking the code, therefore she's still held accountable, and rightfully so. Leafpool and Squirrelflight never even revealed the truth, not even when they were finally outed, and Hollyleaf called them cowards. Because even when they were in the spotlight they still continued to lie to the very end, which is just, yikes. "An accessory after-the-fact is someone who, knowing a crime was committed, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the offender or in any manner aids them to escape arrest or punishment." And her doing what she did to Bramble isn't even just a code thing, it's a breach of their trust as a united relationship. She lied to him. Used him. And didn't even trust him enough to tell him the truth in the first place. That's why he was so hurt. She had the opportunity to defend herself and say otherwise, but she already gave her reasoning. She claims it was to protect her sister, but it doesn't excuse that she lied to him, and didn't trust him enough to tell him the truth at ANY point. And if she knew him enough, and actually loved him like she claimed, she wouldn't have ever doubted the trust of their relationship. Something that Bramblestar gave her the benefit of the doubt, but it wasn't mutual it seems. And these events do affect him in the long run, and also keep in mind that for the longest time the clan also believed that Hollyleaf was dead as well, including him, after he just broke up with Squirrelflight. Their family was practically in pieces, and now their reputation as a clan was also at an all time low too. And as deputy he still has to do his duty, but as a mate, he felt betrayed, and as a father he felt confused. Coming off the cuffs of TNP as well, trust was a big thing for Bramblestar's character, so for Squirrelflight to break that, it's even more salt in the wounds. Squirrelflight has no excuse for what she did, just as much as Leafpool doesn't.
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Post by Hollyfall on Oct 6, 2022 18:41:16 GMT -5
Two things. 1) "A little", by definition, slots under "Yes". In a poll where two answers are "yes" and "no", "a little" just doesn't really have a point. If the other options were "very" and "not at all", then sure. 2) Getting your mate and clan to assist you in raising your sister's kids without telling them the truth is nothing if not manipulating them to do something you need them to do. Not trying to argue, but the question "Is Squirrelflight manipulative" seems like it's asking as if it's one of her most defining traits. Yes, she can be manipulative and dishonest, but more often than not it's done with noble intentions (most of the time, anyways). "A little" seems fine considering it's not something she constantly does nor is it one of her major character traits.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 6, 2022 21:55:37 GMT -5
I think the problem here is that many people associated “manipulative” with “malicious”. Good people can manipulate others with good intentions.
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Bisexual
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Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Oct 7, 2022 6:36:51 GMT -5
I think the problem here is that many people associated “manipulative” with “malicious”. Good people can manipulate others with good intentions. I mean, a lot are giving her crap. Her intentions are good, but it's being taken maliciously. I would point out reasons that could explain why it's best she did certain things, but I don't feel like arguing with multiple people at once. I think the hate for her is overrated when characters around her have done just as bad if not worse. The moment the truth about the Three came out, she was bashed to high heaven.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 7, 2022 8:24:03 GMT -5
I think the problem here is that many people associated “manipulative” with “malicious”. Good people can manipulate others with good intentions. I mean, a lot are giving her crap. Her intentions are good, but it's being taken maliciously. I would point out reasons that could explain why it's best she did certain things, but I don't feel like arguing with multiple people at once. I think the hate for her is overrated when characters around her have done just as bad if not worse. The moment the truth about the Three came out, she was bashed to high heaven. I think every choice she makes is done with good intentions. I have a lot of pity for her regarding getting stuck between a rock and a hard place with the Three’s parentage secret. But I think a lot of her choices aren’t good decisions, regardless of her well-meaning. Squirrelflight does get overhated, though. Some people act like she’s literally the worst character ever for her flaws. And then other people who love her think good intention excuses every bad choice she’s made. As someone who’s more in the middle on her, both make it frustrating to talk about her lol.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
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ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁
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Easing back in
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Post by ʀᴀɪɴʟᴇᴀғ 🍁 on Oct 7, 2022 9:32:00 GMT -5
I mean, a lot are giving her crap. Her intentions are good, but it's being taken maliciously. I would point out reasons that could explain why it's best she did certain things, but I don't feel like arguing with multiple people at once. I think the hate for her is overrated when characters around her have done just as bad if not worse. The moment the truth about the Three came out, she was bashed to high heaven. I think every choice she makes is done with good intentions. I have a lot of pity for her regarding getting stuck between a rock and a hard place with the Three’s parentage secret. But I think a lot of her choices aren’t good decisions, regardless of her well-meaning. Squirrelflight does get overhated, though. Some people act like she’s literally the worst character ever for her flaws. And then other people who love her think good intention excuses every bad choice she’s made. As someone who’s more in the middle on her, both make it frustrating to talk about her lol. From my point of view, even if you don't excuse her behavior, it's hard to discuss her. Overall, Squirrelflight is thrown into sticky situations. I have seen her take more blame for things than people that are actually to blame. And when people admit that another is (mainly) to blame, they go back to being harsh on her. Even when valid points are brought up that discredit another party "against" her, it isn't taken seriously. Granted, this isn't how everyone reacts, but the distinct few that I find myself debating with do this. I'm not trying to snub anyone, by the way. I'm trying to generalize as much as I can.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 7, 2022 9:57:23 GMT -5
I think every choice she makes is done with good intentions. I have a lot of pity for her regarding getting stuck between a rock and a hard place with the Three’s parentage secret. But I think a lot of her choices aren’t good decisions, regardless of her well-meaning. Squirrelflight does get overhated, though. Some people act like she’s literally the worst character ever for her flaws. And then other people who love her think good intention excuses every bad choice she’s made. As someone who’s more in the middle on her, both make it frustrating to talk about her lol. From my point of view, even if you don't excuse her behavior, it's hard to discuss her. Overall, Squirrelflight is thrown into sticky situations. I have seen her take more blame for things than people that are actually to blame. And when people admit that another is (mainly) to blame, they go back to being harsh on her. Even when valid points are brought up that discredit another party "against" her, it isn't taken seriously. Granted, this isn't how everyone reacts, but the distinct few that I find myself debating with do this. I'm not trying to snub anyone, by the way. I'm trying to generalize as much as I can. I think it comes down to opinion on how much Squirrelflight is to blame in a given situation; it's one of those things that, personally, I think is impossible to argue objectives. But yeah every time Squirrel/Bramble gets brought up, all I can think is "here we go again". People get so viscerally involved in that argument. Everyone wants to put all the blame on one party or the other and it always frustrates me. Or they get so caught up in the minutiae of what technically is or isn't abusive/manipulative/etc and splitting hairs when the exact label doesn't really matter, the end result is still a toxic and unhealthy relationship.
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Post by nvcole on Oct 9, 2022 8:32:44 GMT -5
She kinda is, but she doesn't even realize it
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 9, 2022 9:04:00 GMT -5
From my point of view, even if you don't excuse her behavior, it's hard to discuss her. Overall, Squirrelflight is thrown into sticky situations. I have seen her take more blame for things than people that are actually to blame. And when people admit that another is (mainly) to blame, they go back to being harsh on her. Even when valid points are brought up that discredit another party "against" her, it isn't taken seriously. Granted, this isn't how everyone reacts, but the distinct few that I find myself debating with do this. I'm not trying to snub anyone, by the way. I'm trying to generalize as much as I can. I think it comes down to opinion on how much Squirrelflight is to blame in a given situation; it's one of those things that, personally, I think is impossible to argue objectives. But yeah every time Squirrel/Bramble gets brought up, all I can think is "here we go again". People get so viscerally involved in that argument. Everyone wants to put all the blame on one party or the other and it always frustrates me. Or they get so caught up in the minutiae of what technically is or isn't abusive/manipulative/etc and splitting hairs when the exact label doesn't really matter, the end result is still a toxic and unhealthy relationship. Personally, and this is just me, I personally don't care for, nor like Squirrelflight's character due to how she's written, and shoved into the spotlight so much by the Erins. I find it to be exhausting, especially when her character has been such a controversial topic for years. However, I don't think she's the most "evil" or "worst" character in existence, I don't even think she's the most to blame in the three's situation either. The issue is when people trying to absolve her of ANY blame, and only try to shift that onto other characters involved, for example Leafpool. Or try to victim blame characters she's obviously hurt, just because she had good intentions, for example Bramblestar. I find that to be frustrating. On the forums there are much more criticizing opinions toward Squirrelflight and her actions, and how she's written as a character, but you will rarely ever find that level of discussion on other sites and platforms. It's not that she's "overhated", she's just genuinely analyzed by people here, whether they like her or not. But it's blaringly obvious on places like youtube, twitter, tumblr, etc, she's much more favored, and way more popular. Which puts her in a position of being "overrated" and supposedly "overhated" depending on which platforms you use more. At the end of the day, Squirrelflight is supposed to be a morally good cat, but she has made terrible decisions despite her good intentions, which has had well deserved consequences. Does that make her a well written character? It depends on one's personal perspective, but for me I don't think so, and that's coming from someone who used to like her.
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