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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 12, 2022 11:18:02 GMT -5
I wanted to start a topic of conversation regarding supposed character assassinations. Lots of people in the fandom claim this has happened to certain characters, but not everyone agrees. So let's talk about them.
For the purposes of this thread, character assassination (also called character derailment) refers to the following:
There are multiple definitions of this trope and how it can apply, but this is the one I'm going with for the sake of consistency. Specifically note that one instance of a figure acting "out of character" does not in itself constitute character assassination, as it refers to a consistent and fundamental shift in their behavior.
Inconsistency is more broad and can refer to either a character undulating between two seemingly different/opposite personalities, or just a specific collection of OOC moments.
What are characters that you think suffered character assassination and/or inconsistency, and why?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 11:38:14 GMT -5
i’m usually of the opinion that characters like onestar, mistystar, and lionblaze are actually more interesting because of the ‘character assassination’ they undergo. like onewhisker is kind of just a nice background character up until he becomes leader and we get to see him crack under the pressure, it’s much more interesting than if he was just a nice leader.
but then there’s yellowfang… dear god yellowfang
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 12, 2022 11:38:31 GMT -5
99% of the time, "character assassination" in this fandom just means "random background character doesn't fit my exact headcanon for their personality, nevermind that they had no personality before".
I have never seen the phrase applied in a way that I particularly agree with in this fandom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 11:40:39 GMT -5
99% of the time, "character assassination" in this fandom just means "random background character doesn't fit my exact headcanon for their personality, nevermind that they had no personality before". I have never seen the phrase applied in a way that I particularly agree with in this fandom yeah! like back when people claimed that ashfur was a victim of character assassination, even though he was a complete nobody before he became a villain (and again, way way more interesting than he was as a background character)
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 12, 2022 12:02:41 GMT -5
Bramblestar is the best (or rather worst) example of this. And I know this has been discussed on here before although rather briefly while there is also a video made by Quiet Rage on Youtube about this issue. I'm currently not in a good mental state to really explain my reasoning on being convinced this happened to him of all cats but still wanted to at least put his name out there for others to analyze his inconsistent (in my opinion) behaviour and determine for themselves wether or not it can be classified as character assassination. I'm not here to fight or convince people of anything so if anyone disagrees with me then feel free to do so but hopefully in a polite manner.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Jan 12, 2022 12:53:33 GMT -5
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 I agree on Bramblestar probably being one of the best examples of character assassination in Warriors. He has a good character built up in PoT as good father that listens to other cats. As leader his personality has become much more boring and numbed down, and I think this is especially present in AVoS with him and Alderheart's relationship. (Also hope things get better for you, sorry you're not doing so well mentally. If there's anything I can do to help then I'm here for you)
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 12, 2022 13:24:31 GMT -5
i’m usually of the opinion that characters like onestar, mistystar, and lionblaze are actually more interesting because of the ‘character assassination’ they undergo. like onewhisker is kind of just a nice background character up until he becomes leader and we get to see him crack under the pressure, it’s much more interesting than if he was just a nice leader. but then there’s yellowfang… dear god yellowfang yellowfang i think is a great example. in death she became like the opposite of who she was in life. tv tropes notes that "derailment is usually caused by an author having a certain story idea and needing to stretch the characters' personality to fit", and that to me seems most likely what happened with her.
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 12, 2022 13:36:40 GMT -5
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 I agree on Bramblestar probably being one of the best examples of character assassination in Warriors. He has a good character built up in PoT as good father that listens to other cats. As leader his personality has become much more boring and numbed down, and I think this is especially present in AVoS with him and Alderheart's relationship. (Also hope things get better for you, sorry you're not doing so well mentally. If there's anything I can do to help then I'm here for you) I personally think he still had some good moments as Brambleclaw (like you mentioned, especially in PoT) but to me, it already started after his TPB characterization where he was shown to be a mature and usually calm cat as an apprentice who saw just how horrible his father was and outright rejected him in front of everyone shortly before Tigerstar died. Only for things to immediately feel at least a little off in TNP when his personality seemed to get changed to fit the plot and was altered to be much more easily angered and very harsh at times. He felt like a different character than what he was depicted as in the previous arc. While I, for example, understand that Brambleclaw wanted to get to know his half-brother Hawkfrost (but not Mothwing for some reason), there were times when he himself doubted his intentions in the second half of TNP and decided to be cautious only to instantly disagree with Squirrelflight when she voiced concerns that were even similar to his. I can only assume he was written like this to cause drama in their relationship in order to stretch out the plot more because otherwise, it would seem completely hypocritical for him to do so, which is a real shame considering his previously established honest and amicable nature in TPB. But yeah, in regards to his leadership and generally how he behaves as Bramblestar, I completel agree with you that he has indeed become rather dull and I think that his skills as leader have been shown to be mediocre at best, which is once again a shame considering how he is hyped up in TNP and praised to be great deputy material only for him to never get a chance at real greatness. Not to forget about his relationship with Squirrelflight being shown at its worst in her SE. That being said, I cannot truly dislike or hate him due to my personal attachment towards Bramblepaw/claw (his warrior version mostly in regards to the insecurities and issues he had with his father). But I thought carefully about this in the past year and have come to the conclusion that my ranking of his life stages is as followed, Bramblepaw - Love, Brambleclaw - Like/Neutral, Bramblestar - Neutral/Dislike. Wow, it actually pains me to write the last part. How sweet of you to say that! I have been feeling rather down lately which might be in part due to (seasonal) depression but also a lack of sunlight and not much natural light (it has been rather dark and dreary where I live) as well as some other personal problems. But I'm hoping to at least improve my mood with some Vitamin D supplements until the sun comes back properly in March or April.
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Post by dawn on Jan 12, 2022 14:47:55 GMT -5
Bramblestar is the best (or rather worst) example of this. And I know this has been discussed on here before although rather briefly while there is also a video made by Quiet Rage on Youtube about this issue. I'm currently not in a good mental state to really explain my reasoning on being convinced this happened to him of all cats but still wanted to at least put his name out there for others to analyze his inconsistent (in my opinion) behaviour and determine for themselves wether or not it can be classified as character assassination. I'm not here to fight or convince people of anything so if anyone disagrees with me then feel free to do so but hopefully in a polite manner. I felt that Bramblestar’s personality change started in TNP when one of the books was from Squirrelflight’s POV (can’t remember which one) and he was just outright rude to her all the time when he’d never really been rude to her, just got frustrated with her, and it just felt like he was being written that way so Squirrelflight could have a bigger reason to dislike him. There’s also a part in that book where Bramblestar gets angry about kittypets joining the clan, and it was never shown before that he had any prejudice against kittypets besides the most basic kind, and I felt like that was especially included to add tension between him and Squirrelflight because she’s half kittypet.
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 12, 2022 15:03:00 GMT -5
Bramblestar is the best (or rather worst) example of this. And I know this has been discussed on here before although rather briefly while there is also a video made by Quiet Rage on Youtube about this issue. I'm currently not in a good mental state to really explain my reasoning on being convinced this happened to him of all cats but still wanted to at least put his name out there for others to analyze his inconsistent (in my opinion) behaviour and determine for themselves wether or not it can be classified as character assassination. I'm not here to fight or convince people of anything so if anyone disagrees with me then feel free to do so but hopefully in a polite manner. I felt that Bramblestar’s personality change started in TNP when one of the books was from Squirrelflight’s POV (can’t remember which one) and he was just outright rude to her all the time when he’d never really been rude to her, just got frustrated with her, and it just felt like he was being written that way so Squirrelflight could have a bigger reason to dislike him. There’s also a part in that book where Bramblestar gets angry about kittypets joining the clan, and it was never shown before that he had any prejudice against kittypets besides the most basic kind, and I felt like that was especially included to add tension between him and Squirrelflight because she’s half kittypet. Ah yes, that was during Twilight. Which is just yet another reason for me to completely despise that book. The other one being LeafCrow having their rushed romance.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 12, 2022 15:41:41 GMT -5
but to me, it already started after his TPB characterization where he was shown to be a mature and usually calm cat as an apprentice who saw just how horrible his father was and outright rejected him in front of everyone shortly before Tigerstar died. Only for things to immediately feel at least a little off in TNP when his personality seemed to get changed to fit the plot and was altered to be much more easily angered and very harsh at times. He felt like a different character than what he was depicted as in the previous arc. Could this just be a symptom of his growing up?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 15:45:40 GMT -5
the way bramblestar’s characterization has changed over the years is so weird, it’s like the erins are assassinating his character while simultaneously trying to pretend he’s the same character? it’s weird
i really really want to like bramblestar. bramblepaw was great, but ever since he got the spotlight as a main character it’s felt like he’s been getting worse and worse. he went from being a favorite of mine to being a character that i kind of just want them to kill off cause he’s just gotten so poorly written and inconsistent at this point.
conceptually, he’s a really good character, but something about the way the erins write him is just off, i can’t really put my finger on it
i’m wondering what his character is even supposed to be at this point cause i don’t think even the erins know
not really a point to this lol, just sharing loosely connected thoughts
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 12, 2022 15:47:19 GMT -5
but to me, it already started after his TPB characterization where he was shown to be a mature and usually calm cat as an apprentice who saw just how horrible his father was and outright rejected him in front of everyone shortly before Tigerstar died. Only for things to immediately feel at least a little off in TNP when his personality seemed to get changed to fit the plot and was altered to be much more easily angered and very harsh at times. He felt like a different character than what he was depicted as in the previous arc. Could this just be a symptom of his growing up? Do you mean something akin to puberty? Because that could be an explanation to an extent until he was a fully grown cat but not in the long run. For example, Brackenpaw was a calm and rational cat as an apprentice and continued to be shown this way after becoming a warrior up until even now. So why couldn't Brambleclaw/star?
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 12, 2022 15:51:35 GMT -5
the way bramblestar’s characterization has changed over the years is so weird, it’s like the erins are assassinating his character while simultaneously trying to pretend he’s the same character? it’s weird i really really want to like bramblestar. bramblepaw was great, but ever since he got the spotlight as a main character it’s felt like he’s been getting worse and worse. he went from being a favorite of mine to being a character that i kind of just want them to kill off cause he’s just gotten so poorly written and inconsistent at this point. conceptually, he’s a really good character, but something about the way the erins write him is just off, i can’t really put my finger on it i’m wondering what his character is even supposed to be at this point cause i don’t think even the erins know not really a point to this lol, just sharing loosely connected thoughts I honestly can't blame you (or anyone else for that matter) for disliking or even hating Bramblestar and wanting him gone from the series (or at least dead/in StarClan). He was ruined by the writing team and I don't see any hope for him in the future since the damage has already been done for a while.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 12, 2022 16:22:10 GMT -5
Could this just be a symptom of his growing up? Do you mean something akin to puberty? Because that could be an explanation to an extent until he was a fully grown cat but not in the long run. For example, Brackenpaw was a calm and rational cat as an apprentice and continued to be shown this way after becoming a warrior up until even now. So why couldn't Brambleclaw/star? oh no, sorry for the confusion. i meant that sometimes people's personalities just change between when they're kids and when they are adults. i'm wondering if brambleclaw's change could be chalked up to him just developing into a different character as he matured. this is more of an in-universe explanation to account for this change, i don't necessarily think thats something the authors were purposefully intending
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Aroace
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Jan 12, 2022 16:43:17 GMT -5
Do you mean something akin to puberty? Because that could be an explanation to an extent until he was a fully grown cat but not in the long run. For example, Brackenpaw was a calm and rational cat as an apprentice and continued to be shown this way after becoming a warrior up until even now. So why couldn't Brambleclaw/star? oh no, sorry for the confusion. i meant that sometimes people's personalities just change between when they're kids and when they are adults. i'm wondering if brambleclaw's change could be chalked up to him just developing into a different character as he matured. this is more of an in-universe explanation to account for this change, i don't necessarily think thats something the authors were purposefully intending Ah, I see what you mean now. While it can be true that people (or cats in this instance) can change in terms of personalities from when they were kids to them as adults, it still felt rather jarring to see something like this happening to a character like Brambleclaw/star when he was previously shown way differently as an apprentice, especially how he went from rejecting what his father stood for in TPB to training with his evil spirit in the Dark Forest during TNP. It does not feel like a natural process that he went through and more like the authors just woke up one day and decided to (badly) write his character in this manner to create a dramatic plot (besides LeafCrow and the love triangle he was involved in with Squirrelflight and Ashfur) to fill up the rest of the books in TNP.
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Bisexual
dnacat
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Post by dnacat on Jan 12, 2022 16:48:16 GMT -5
he went from being a favorite of mine to being a character that i kind of just want them to kill off cause he’s just gotten so poorly written and inconsistent at this point. It's sad that this is such a common thing now. When I read the first arc when I was ~10, I adored Bramblepaw and when I read Po3 (I skipped TNP as a kid, don't know why) I still liked him as Brambledad. But, when I read ALITM spoilers and heard Bramblestar got to keep living, I was actually almost angry because I'm so tired of him. To me, he's just the ultimate example of the Erin's butchering characters for the sake of plot. Let the man die before he's tarnished any more.
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Post by vectoring34 on Jan 12, 2022 17:05:09 GMT -5
I'll retract my previous statement by saying Brambleclaw did indeed get destroyed in the transition between TPB and TNP. He went from rejecting Tigerstar to happily training with him and his dialogue in Power of Three is atrocious when he tries to make excuses for him too.
" "The trouble is that everyone only saw the evil in Tigerstar. They forgot what a bold and brilliant warrior he was." . . . "But we all have strengths and weaknesses. It must be sad to be remembered only for your weaknesses.""
I actually found PoT Brambleclaw most annoying for that line alone. It is one of the most atrocious lines in the entire series, up there with "I would hate to be related to a murderer" in terms of sheer ridiculousness.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2022 17:43:45 GMT -5
i’m usually of the opinion that characters like onestar, mistystar, and lionblaze are actually more interesting because of the ‘character assassination’ they undergo. like onewhisker is kind of just a nice background character up until he becomes leader and we get to see him crack under the pressure, it’s much more interesting than if he was just a nice leader. but then there’s yellowfang… dear god yellowfang I agree that it makes them more interesting, I just want the authors to show the process of them changing and make it seem realistic. That's why I'm dying to have a Onestar super edition
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 12, 2022 20:01:26 GMT -5
he went from being a favorite of mine to being a character that i kind of just want them to kill off cause he’s just gotten so poorly written and inconsistent at this point. It's sad that this is such a common thing now. When I read the first arc when I was ~10, I adored Bramblepaw and when I read Po3 (I skipped TNP as a kid, don't know why) I still liked him as Brambledad. But, when I read ALITM spoilers and heard Bramblestar got to keep living, I was actually almost angry because I'm so tired of him. To me, he's just the ultimate example of the Erin's butchering characters for the sake of plot. Let the man die before he's tarnished any more. tbf im pretty sure everyone in the fandom is ready for bramble to die already
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Post by Skypaw13 on Jan 12, 2022 23:25:56 GMT -5
Not assassination, but I believe Jayfeather is the victim of Flanderization, which is a related concept.
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Post by MadameDelune on Jan 12, 2022 23:42:49 GMT -5
My man Thistleclaw got it the worst I’m so surprised I haven’t seen him mentioned here yet
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Post by Spooky Alice on Jan 13, 2022 1:25:52 GMT -5
The thing with me is that I don't feel like many characters in Warriors are like....characters. Archetypes and all that sort of thing, but in depth characters? Those are a rarity. A character is their role in the story, basically, and unless it's egregious I can't say it bothers me much in the case of Warriors.
I mean unless the story they do is bad besides that but that's usually unrelated to "character assassination"
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 13, 2022 8:44:32 GMT -5
My man Thistleclaw got it the worst I’m so surprised I haven’t seen him mentioned here yet how’s that?
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Post by dawn on Jan 13, 2022 13:54:03 GMT -5
Not assassination, but I believe Jayfeather is the victim of Flanderization, which is a related concept. I looked up the definition of this, and like it’s actually kind of crazy how true that is. It’s really disappointing. I really liked Jayfeather as a character until I started reading AVoS and now I’m just kind of tired of him always being mean.
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Cloudstorm
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Post by Cloudstorm on Jan 13, 2022 14:23:08 GMT -5
My man Thistleclaw got it the worst I’m so surprised I haven’t seen him mentioned here yet how’s that? I’m presuming she’s referring to Spottedleaf’s Heart, though I’d argue it just added more depth and explanation as to why he went to the Dark Forest in the first place, which Victoria confirmed as true. I mean he was always meant to be an evil, bloodthirsty and manipulative POS from the beginning lol, so not really surprising what he did in that book.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Jan 13, 2022 14:32:51 GMT -5
Bramblestar. I'd also say Jayfeather was Flanderized.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Jan 14, 2022 17:56:01 GMT -5
is bumblestripe character assassination? discuss
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2022 18:12:01 GMT -5
is bumblestripe character assassination? discuss i’d probably put him under the “was a background character beforehand” category, but it is still an interesting question. personally i hate romance drama and i feel bad for everyone that gets attached to a background character with a nice personality only for them to be dragged into something like this. especially when they go right back to being a background character afterwards
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