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Post by lionblazex on Nov 22, 2021 17:52:07 GMT -5
Nope. No reason for how Ashfur got so powerful is given. Just that he can and did do these things and you have to accept it lol.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 22, 2021 18:03:37 GMT -5
no. they waited til the last book to even give him a POV, but even then, it doesnt fully and completely explain HOW he got the powers. it's only part of the reason why i hate TBC so much and why i say its the worst arc ever lol
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Post by Goldy from Dappleclan on Nov 22, 2021 18:34:29 GMT -5
No explanation for anything at all. Worst arc ever fr
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 22, 2021 18:41:04 GMT -5
nope
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 22, 2021 18:53:34 GMT -5
Crysolisbad is what it is
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 22, 2021 18:59:56 GMT -5
Man what the hell lmao what is this writing dude see...people can say TBC is written well from a technical standpoint all they want, but the ideas of the STORY are bad. the weak foundation of the idea for ashfur to come back out of nowhere. the lack of foundation in how starclan works. the fact they didnt give hints for all 6 books to how ashfur got these powers and knowledge is proof that it's horrible in its foundation. they dont explain it and they waited til the last book to give the villain a POV, but even then they failed to show us how ashfur figured out all this. are we meant to believe he's just some evil genius who found loopholes when no one else in starclan has EVER found them before? he's the ONLY ONE out of HUNDREDS of ancestors to figure it out? how are we meant to believe something so outrageous with no logical, in universe explanation? if it has no explanation, it's bad. plain and simple. im sick of people praising TBC as the best arc ever when it's by far the weakest.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 22, 2021 19:03:50 GMT -5
Man what the hell lmao what is this writing dude see...people can say TBC is written well from a technical standpoint all they want, but the ideas of the STORY are bad. the weak foundation of the idea for ashfur to come back out of nowhere. the lack of foundation in how starclan works. the fact they didnt give hints for all 6 books to how ashfur got these powers and knowledge is proof that it's horrible in its foundation. they dont explain it and they waited til the last book to give the villain a POV, but even then they failed to show us how ashfur figured out all this. are we meant to believe he's just some evil genius who found loopholes when no one else in starclan has EVER found them before? he's the ONLY ONE out of HUNDREDS of ancestors to figure it out? how are we meant to believe something so outrageous with no logical, in universe explanation? if it has no explanation, it's bad. plain and simple. im sick of people praising TBC as the best arc ever when it's by far the weakest. not to mention his POV only lasts through the prologue, and he doesn’t get another one throughout the entire book.
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Heterosexual
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 22, 2021 19:21:16 GMT -5
Man what the hell lmao what is this writing dude see...people can say TBC is written well from a technical standpoint all they want, but the ideas of the STORY are bad. the weak foundation of the idea for ashfur to come back out of nowhere. the lack of foundation in how starclan works. the fact they didnt give hints for all 6 books to how ashfur got these powers and knowledge is proof that it's horrible in its foundation. they dont explain it and they waited til the last book to give the villain a POV, but even then they failed to show us how ashfur figured out all this. are we meant to believe he's just some evil genius who found loopholes when no one else in starclan has EVER found them before? he's the ONLY ONE out of HUNDREDS of ancestors to figure it out? how are we meant to believe something so outrageous with no logical, in universe explanation? if it has no explanation, it's bad. plain and simple. im sick of people praising TBC as the best arc ever when it's by far the weakest. He did mention that he had explored more... amybe no one ever tried to find it also, maybe, possibly, his hatred itself willed the portal into existense. if that makes any sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 19:23:08 GMT -5
He just got em apparently
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 22, 2021 19:30:43 GMT -5
@happy413 all we need to know
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 22, 2021 19:56:08 GMT -5
windflight . I mean considering cats Like Mapleshade, silverhawk, Thistleclaw have been there for ages longer, and Mapleshade having gone in a killing spree and vowing to curse Appledusk’s entire bloodline , she definitely has the motivation and hatred necessary to obtain said powers. And given that the explanation we are given is that Ashfur’s Hatred and rage was strong enough I amplify his power. plus he invited all the negative, petulant energy and emotions that the dark forest resonates off, and is able to turn a good cat bad , which apparently allowed him to become attuned to the dark forest, and gain the capability to bend and shape it too his will. Honestly it came off very contrived and convoluted to me. But hey not gonna knock it if some people dig that sort of thing. true. there's other cats who have better reasons than ashfur. mapleshade has been angry for generations and she was ACTUALLY betrayed PLUS she watched her kits die. that's way more understandable anger than ashfur. ashfur, what? just got rejeced by a girl he liked? how does that anger outweigh mapleshade's? (for example only. disclaimer: im not justifying mapleshade's actions,just explaining how they're a stronger motivator than ashfur's.) people also try to say "well ashfur was in starclan so he had access to more things." but he's only in starclan because no one was brave enough to tell vicky no to her decision. vicky put him there for her own biased reasons even though it OBVIOUSLY BROKE LORE. ashfur was a villain at the end of Po3, therefore he goes to the dark forest like everyone else who attempts murder and committed treason...vicky's lore breaking mistake being taken into canon to THIS extent made TBC a failure from the BEGINNING.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 22, 2021 20:03:46 GMT -5
On one hand yeah I really wish there'd been an explanation for how he got his powers (I like the idea that it's because he's a starclan cat, not dark forest) because that's a pretty major part of the story
But on the other, if I'm entirely honest as a horror fan I like the horror bend of the arc too much to get really in the weeds about explanations. I'm too used to things saying "don't worry about it"
addendum: like while there are fundamental issues with the whole "how did he get his powers" the arc is primarily playing within a genre that foundationally runs pretty low on explanations. you can take that or leave that as a personal preference but at the very baseline "there's no explanation" doesn't signify bad writing on its own
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 22, 2021 20:53:31 GMT -5
Spooky Alice, you make a very good point. And, if we're being honest, I kind of like the whole mystery of it. Not the "breaking lore" part, but the power part.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 22, 2021 21:13:27 GMT -5
Spooky Alice , you make a very good point. And, if we're being honest, I kind of like the whole mystery of it. Not the "breaking lore" part, but the power part. i guess this is where differing perspectives and experiences come in. i've been in writing classes, and i've been told for years in community college and uni that if ur story can't answer the "who, what, when, where, why, and how" questions, then u need re-work it. i think this applies to TBC in particular because the whole thing doesnt really answer those questions. the answers come from meta, not the in canon universe of warriors. "why is ashfur coming back?" because the writers and editors couldnt say no to vicky putting ashfur where he didnt belong in the first place, and now they "have" to bring him back to "correct" it. "how is ashfur going to be the villain again?" idk, he just can, we're not going to explain it, it just happens because we need a plot. to me, it's lazy because they're hiding behind the mystery part of it. you can literally say anything badly written is a mystery in order to deflect the bad writing and pass it off as something "cool" and "mysterious" instead. nothing in-universe explains how TBC's plot is logical.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 22, 2021 21:26:59 GMT -5
Spooky Alice , you make a very good point. And, if we're being honest, I kind of like the whole mystery of it. Not the "breaking lore" part, but the power part. i guess this is where differing perspectives and experiences come in. i've been in writing classes, and i've been told for years in community college and uni that if ur story can't answer the "who, what, when, where, why, and how" questions, then u need re-work it. i think this applies to TBC in particular because the whole thing doesnt really answer those questions. the answers come from meta, not the in canon universe of warriors. "why is ashfur coming back?" because the writers and editors couldnt say no to vicky putting ashfur where he didnt belong in the first place, and now they "have" to bring him back to "correct" it. "how is ashfur going to be the villain again?" idk, he just can, we're not going to explain it, it just happens because we need a plot. to me, it's lazy because they're hiding behind the mystery part of it. you can literally say anything badly written is a mystery in order to deflect the bad writing and pass it off as something "cool" and "mysterious" instead. nothing in-universe explains how TBC's plot is logical. As someone with experience as a horror writer what you were taught is extremely genre specific (explanations are in fact extremely detrimental to horror). I'm not saying TBC isn't without problems regarding ashfur as the villain, but I am saying that the core plot of the story is to the bones horror.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 22, 2021 21:42:42 GMT -5
the problem is that warriors isnt a stand-alone horror novel/series. its young adult/children's hero fantasy with the generic tropes and expectations that come with it. and because TBC is tied in many ways to the rest of this franchise, primarily in its narrative style, relying on the mystery aspect of horror/thriller fiction feels disjointed and disconnected from the foundational bones of the overarching story (which is decidedly not horror). ashfur isn't an unknown monster shrouded in mystery; to the audience, he is a familiar character with fleshed out motivations, backstory, personality, etc. so when the one thing that isn't explained is how he became OP'd, it comes across as plot convenience.
TBC having horror element in its imagery does not make the whole arc a horror genre, nor does it erase the entire franchise's identity (or baggage) as a formulaic children's fantasy.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 22, 2021 22:35:06 GMT -5
The book doesn't explain exactly how, but we do see where he got the idea from thanks to the prologue (observing Mistystar's nine lives ceremony and figuring out that he can possess another cat so long as their spirit isn't occupying the body) . If I had to make a guess though, I always thought it was due to him being a StarClan cat and his powers essentially being a corrupted form of what a StarClan cat is already capable of, combined with his own negative emotions.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 22, 2021 22:36:44 GMT -5
I find the argument that it's impossible for Ashfur to have discovered something new utterly absurd. Humans banged rocks together in the nearly exact same way for literally tens of thousands of years before you see the Neolithic revolution, the Civil War started off being fought with muskets only barely better than ones from the Revolutionary War and ended with gatling guns, and so on. Punctuated equilibrium is absolutely a thing and the idea that Ashfur can learn some new technique when Starclan has only existed for what, like 50 years maybe, is entirely probable.
What makes it even easier to swallow is that his only demonstrated powers are being able to control souls to some extent, which is a basic Starclan power that Cinderpelt demonstrated anyway. The only difference is that Ashfur is more advanced at it and can do it to a greater degree, but that may not even be a special technique so much as a result of monopolizing the gateways.
Also, big agree with the fact that TBC is clearly dipping into the horror genre and overexplaining things there is a waste of time. More specifically, it's clearly Gothic horror and those explain things even less! In Frankenstein, there is ZERO explanation devoted to how Victor Frankenstein actually managed to create life, with only the briefest possible explanation given to how he made him bigger to make him easier to work with. In Dracula, we get a whole ONE SENTENCE explaining how Dracula got his powers. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde doesn't even bother to say anything about how Jekyll got his potion to work, it just assumes (correctly) that it doesn't matter.
This also holds true in contemporary horror. Why is Michael Myers so impossible to kill? No one knows (unless you follow the atrocious Thorn movies) but it doesn't matter.
I only have one issue with Ashfur's powers, and that's that I feel like it is a shame that so often his thralls are portrayed as dumb zombies when TPONS's twist with Willowshine acting like herself yet still being controlled was so effective. THIS was a misstep I believe, but his powers are otherwise basic possession taken to several degrees.
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 22, 2021 23:00:35 GMT -5
What makes it even easier to swallow is that his only demonstrated powers are being able to control souls to some extent, which is a basic Starclan power that Cinderpelt demonstrated anyway. The only difference is that Ashfur is more advanced at it and can do it to a greater degree, but that may not even be a special technique so much as a result of monopolizing the gateways. Yeah, this is why I honestly think Ashfur is being given just a bit too much credit. He's powerful, sure, but when it comes down to it, all he's really doing is something we've already known StarClan is capable of. Using the Dark Forest to his advantage probably helped as well, especially since we already know it corrupts you the longer you stay and who knows how many times Ashfur traveled there before putting his plan into action. Had Cinderpelt let her despair consume her, she probably would've been able to take control of Cinderheart just as well as Ashfur did to his own victims (funny enough, I actually remember reading a fanfic years ago with a somewhat similar premise). Looking at this previous case though, there also seems to be different forms of possession, since Cinderheart was still very much her own cat for the most part, with the Cinderpelt side only coming out occasionally, kinda similar to what Ashfur did with Bramblestar in LS before the illness took hold, it's just that taking complete control of the body was obviously easier.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 22, 2021 23:25:30 GMT -5
What makes it even easier to swallow is that his only demonstrated powers are being able to control souls to some extent, which is a basic Starclan power that Cinderpelt demonstrated anyway. The only difference is that Ashfur is more advanced at it and can do it to a greater degree, but that may not even be a special technique so much as a result of monopolizing the gateways. Yeah, this is why I honestly think Ashfur is being given just a bit too much credit. He's powerful, sure, but when it comes down to it, all he's really doing is something we've already known StarClan is capable of. Using the Dark Forest to his advantage probably helped as well, especially since we already know it corrupts you the longer you stay and who knows how many times Ashfur traveled there before putting his plan into action. Had Cinderpelt let her despair consume her, she probably would've been able to take control of Cinderheart just as well as Ashfur did to his own victims (funny enough, I actually remember reading a fanfic years ago with a somewhat similar premise). Looking at this previous case though, there also seems to be different forms of possession, since Cinderheart was still very much her own cat for the most part, with the Cinderpelt side only coming out occasionally, kinda similar to what Ashfur did with Bramblestar in LS before the illness took hold, it's just that taking complete control of the body was obviously easier. I think another factor in Ashfur's control is that he held the "keys" figuratively to the ways to the afterlife. The only path he didn't guard was the Sisters' path which he didn't know about and the "dark thoughts" path to the Dark Forest, which seems to be probably the most open of all the paths since there are no special requirements for it, no connective place or anything like that. With him controlling the other doors to Starclan and the Dark Forest, it allowed him all the time he needed to exert his control over the cats who died and were sent to "his" version of the afterlife. I think a dark Cinderpelt fanfiction would be pretty interesting, btw.
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Cloudstorm
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 23, 2021 0:35:13 GMT -5
I love reading a good Horror novel or Watching a good horror movie as the next thrill-seeker. But Warriors as @saintambrosef has stated above isn’t a horror Novel series at its foundation. So watching it take a 360 degree shift in Genre is , as expected , very daunting to many long-time readers, it’s like if Marvel released a Spiderman/Thor/Guardians of the galaxies Movie or an installment to any other IP under their belts, and completely stripped all the powers/magic etc, away from the hero and rest of the Universe inexplicably without any warning to the viewers . There would be a tremendous amount of uproar and outcry, and the viewers would be rightfully so to feel that way. And it’s not exclusive to warriors, plenty of other franchises have steered themselves in a completely different direction, throwing away their established and identity. And it usually ends with catastrophic results and uproarious backlash from the fanbase.
Universe progression and additions are one thing. Completely rebuilding from the ground up is something else entirely, and is very rarely well received.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 23, 2021 1:44:45 GMT -5
The thing is that warriors has always had horror/darker elements, it isn't entirely unreasonable for the team to heavily lean into those elements. It's not like these things are out of nowhere (the bonehill in tdh was very foundational for baby me and my affinity for horror). It's up to personal taste if you think it worked or not, and i have mixed feelings myself as someone who's spent a lifetime watching/reading/writing horror, but i will defend the lack of explanation from a genre standpoint
And like frankly a long running IP needs to shake things up every now and then, test some waters, elsewise there's just stagnation. comics ain't a great comparison because we're always complaining about something or other.
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Post by daurianwind on Nov 23, 2021 3:11:56 GMT -5
No explanation for anything at all. Worst arc ever fr It’s obvious, working hard, for example digging, gives superpowers. This arc really about good of labour. Very motivating.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Nov 23, 2021 3:21:39 GMT -5
The thing is that warriors has always had horror/darker elements, it isn't entirely unreasonable for the team to heavily lean into those elements. It's not like these things are out of nowhere (the bonehill in tdh was very foundational for baby me and my affinity for horror). It's up to personal taste if you think it worked or not, and i have mixed feelings myself as someone who's spent a lifetime watching/reading/writing horror, but i will defend the lack of explanation from a genre standpoint And like frankly a long running IP needs to shake things up every now and then, test some waters, elsewise there's just stagnation. comics ain't a great comparison because we're always complaining about something or other. I think there's a difference between simply having horrific elements present (like TDH), and something actually being in the horror genre. TBC leans into the horror tropes and may even be considered horror if it were a standalone series, but when taken in context with the rest of the franchise, it's jarring. Some may like it, some may not, but it's jarring nonetheless. That's actually my biggest problem with TBC, honestly. As a standalone series, it would be fantastic. But if you've read the first six arcs, you not only come in with certain genre expectations, but also a certain amount of lore knowledge. TBC either breaks or bends both of those preconceptions, and people are understandably going to find that frustrating. The writing itself isn't terrible when analyzed in a vacuum, it's just not consistent with the rest of the series.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Nov 23, 2021 9:35:15 GMT -5
Most fantasy books have occasional elements of creepiness, like the bonehill. That doesn’t mean every instance of such is a reflection of the horror genre.
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Nov 23, 2021 13:46:24 GMT -5
Cinderpelt did it first. Or at least the possession thing which seems to be something any StarClan cat is capable of. Being able to control other spirits was rather unique to Ashfur but I'm sure any StarClan warrior can also become good at this under the right circumstances. The rest was him just digging a new tunnel to the Dark Forest, blocking off the other one and the Moonpool which thus trapped StarClan and kept them from reaching out to the living Clans.
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