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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 23, 2021 14:20:24 GMT -5
Cinderpelt did it first. Or at least the possession thing which seems to be something any StarClan cat is capable of. Being able to control other spirits was rather unique to Ashfur but I'm sure any StarClan warrior can also become good at this under the right circumstances. The rest was him just digging a new tunnel to the Dark Forest, blocking off the other one and the Moonpool which thus trapped StarClan and kept them from reaching out to the living Clans. noticing how TBC is the result of vicky's biases and bad deicions...cinderpelt possession plot was because vicky had favoritism for cinderpelt...and it didnt do anything in OotS, only for cheap lion x cinder drama that was stupid and annoying to read. to me, it ruined cinderpelt's reputation, so why did they do it? because vicky said so and no one was brave enough to tell her it was a bad idea. same with ashfur being put in starclan. vicky's bias put him there when the lore states he should have gone to the dark forest from the beginning. and if they told vicky no to putting ashfur in starclan, TBC would have nothing to stand on, and thus it would have to be something totally different. if all of these bad decisions by vicky were shot down, we would have been saved from the awful arc that was TBC...but they decided to "fix" vicky's mistakes by acknowledging them and making them worse by trying to make it "mysterious" and not explain any of it lol it's sad.
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
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BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Pretty busy irl so not online as much atm...
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Nov 23, 2021 14:28:55 GMT -5
Cinderpelt did it first. Or at least the possession thing which seems to be something any StarClan cat is capable of. Being able to control other spirits was rather unique to Ashfur but I'm sure any StarClan warrior can also become good at this under the right circumstances. The rest was him just digging a new tunnel to the Dark Forest, blocking off the other one and the Moonpool which thus trapped StarClan and kept them from reaching out to the living Clans. noticing how TBC is the result of vicky's biases and bad deicions...cinderpelt possession plot was because vicky had favoritism for cinderpelt...and it didnt do anything in OotS, only for cheap lion x cinder drama that was stupid and annoying to read. to me, it ruined cinderpelt's reputation, so why did they do it? because vicky said so and no one was brave enough to tell her it was a bad idea. same with ashfur being put in starclan. vicky's bias put him there when the lore states he should have gone to the dark forest from the beginning. and if they told vicky no to putting ashfur in starclan, TBC would have nothing to stand on, and thus it would have to be something totally different. if all of these bad decisions by vicky were shot down, we would have been saved from the awful arc that was TBC...but they decided to "fix" vicky's mistakes by acknowledging them and making them worse by trying to make it "mysterious" and not explain any of it lol it's sad. Seeing as the "Cinderpelt possessing Cinderheart" decision and the "Ashfur goes to StarClan" choice both happened years ago I'm no longer willing to put much energy into being angry about it personally. I don't like TBC much but am at least glad they finally showed Ashfur as the villain he was all along instead of continuing to justify his horrid behaviour with an in universe "he loved too much" and a "he was just driven crazy from unrequited love" by Vicky.
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Post by Spooky Alice on Nov 23, 2021 15:44:06 GMT -5
While I don't like a lot of the decisions made by vicky (The whole possession thing is ableist as all get out) there really is nothing wrong with the current team using them to make a story. you see it in comics all the time. and besides she hasn't been involved for years i feel like harping on that is a bit of a moot point
And again people are allowed to dislike it/think it didn't work/found it a jarring tonal shift. like the real bottom line is if you think leaning into these elements was a mistake to begin with (i don't think warriors is the first fantasy to dig into its darker aspects either but lord knows i can't think of any off the top). the lack of explanation for how ashfur did all this falls neatly within horror genre conventions; not answering those questions is a feature, not a bug
add: i don't even like tbc that much horror is just very important to me lol
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 23, 2021 15:50:34 GMT -5
we can all agree to disagree then because i see it as a domino effect. bad decisions from the past being used in current times to make things worse in TBC is why i am still upset about it lol. it matters because it snowballed from one bad decision to the next. making TBC one of the worst stories the series has come out with.
TBC defenders can't change my mind. TBC is bad and always will be to me. no amount of long posts can change it.
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Post by Hollyfall on Nov 23, 2021 23:39:20 GMT -5
As several users have pointed out, it's worth mentioning that Ashfur is/was a StarClan cat. They have different powers and abilities different from those who live in the Dark Forest and that is proven several times in the series. Possession in this case happens to be something they're capable of. We've seen it with Cinderpelt, and heck, even Firestar learns how to do it in ALitM. Ashfur's our first StarClan villain. He's the first cat to use those powers and abilities for evil. It was bound to happen at some point, and the first occurrence just...happened to be Ashfur. Given his past and his mentality, it shouldn't be too surprising. We do get a hint of where he got the idea watching Mistystar die, and then clearly it all snowballed from there.
Who's to say Ashfur shouldn't be the first cat to discover everything he did? Everything's got to be discovered by someone at some point in time. Ashfur just happens to be the cat twisted and selfish enough to go through with it. Ashfur, as we see from the prologue for book six, never moved on and let his hatred and jealousy fester for years, and him utilizing the Dark Forest as his base of operations almost certainly amplified those thoughts considering the whole place runs on negative energy. Villains like Tigerstar, Brokenstar, Mapleshade, and others never got that chance because they were sent to the Dark Forest immediately in the afterlife, so they never learned about possessing bodies and all the things Ashfur managed to figure out. The worst they could do was materialize in the real world and appear in dreams. Besides, even if they became aware of the power somehow, they almost certainly wouldn't be able to even do it considering they're Dark Forest cats.
His control over ghosts also isn't totally outlandish either. StarClan obviously has some kind of power over spirits and using them. Cinderpelt and Cinderheart is probably the best example to use here considering they more or less just shoved Cinderpelt's spirit in Cinderheart almost immediately. Regardless though, since he was using the Dark Forest as his headquarters, he, as the most powerful being in there, has complete control over the ghosts of the dead considering StarClan was blocked off and StarClan is established to have no influence over the Dark Forest anyways.
Personally, I think Ashfur works best considering his motivations and obviously unhinged mentality, which is reinforced by the fact that he was granted access into StarClan and gained those powers. Yeah, it would have been nice to get an explanation considering it's a major focus of the arc, but at the end of the day, I'm not terribly upset because again, this is Warriors. At it's core, is a children's fantasy series about talking cats who can speak to the dead and go to war over menial territorial disputes. There are so many other things in this almost 20 year-long franchise that aren't explained in the slightest and then never touched upon again. Maybe if Ashfur ever gets a novella or something it can be explained then.
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Post by Chicken on Nov 26, 2021 14:27:09 GMT -5
I didn't read a lot of the posts on this thread (I usually don't read posts longer than a paragraph) so sorry if someone already said this, but didn't he get his powers from having negative emotions and stuff?
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Post by mymerlincat on Nov 27, 2021 13:39:57 GMT -5
It’s annoying that it was never explained, but I have no clue why people are acting like this is TBC specific thing. The series doesn’t really explain why any cat has their powers.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 27, 2021 13:54:41 GMT -5
It’s annoying that it was never explained, but I have no clue why people are acting like this is TBC specific thing. The series doesn’t really explain why any cat has their powers. I know a bunch of readers are obsessive lorekeepers, and really enjoy delving into a fictional worlds fantastic, mysterious details . So I guess when there’s really no lore to dig into, it’s gonna at least peeve them off, as it just feels like they just didn’t feel like putting in the effort?. I mean they could of at least devoted like maybe 3-4 pages of Screentime to give some definitive details on the inner workings of some thing’s, nothing major, just something like “ hey , this is how X works, this is X’s limitations, Use Y to Negate the effects of X, Z only works when these conditions are meet, V wards off the Effects of Z’’. Literally anything tangible that people can use to rationalize and understand how things work even if just on a rudimentary level, adds depth to the lore, and plenty of people really dig that stuff .
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Post by Hollyfall on Nov 27, 2021 14:10:50 GMT -5
I didn't read a lot of the posts on this thread (I usually don't read posts longer than a paragraph) so sorry if someone already said this, but didn't he get his powers from having negative emotions and stuff? Sort of? His powers (possession, control over spirits, etc) are already established in the series to be powers of StarClan cats, which, Ashfur is, and was even still considered one in TBC as Snowtuft mentions him having sparkles in his fur while in the Dark Forest. Ashfur's the first cat to use these powers and abilities for evil deeds. His negative emotions and thoughts certainly didn't help though, and him being in the Dark Forest and using it as his base of operations for as long as he did definitely didn't help matters as the place is established to amplify your negative thoughts, which, in this case, was Ashfur's obsession, pettiness, selfishness to name a few. On top of that, him stewing in StarClan for years and he himself claiming he never got over anything did not help his case. It would seem that Ashfur's own powers are a corrupted form of a StarClan cats', if you will.
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Post by vectoring34 on Nov 27, 2021 16:09:16 GMT -5
I didn't read a lot of the posts on this thread (I usually don't read posts longer than a paragraph) so sorry if someone already said this, but didn't he get his powers from having negative emotions and stuff? Sort of? His powers (possession, control over spirits, etc) are already established in the series to be powers of StarClan cats, which, Ashfur is, and was even still considered one in TBC as Snowtuft mentions him having sparkles in his fur while in the Dark Forest. Ashfur's the first cat to use these powers and abilities for evil deeds. His negative emotions and thoughts certainly didn't help though, and him being in the Dark Forest and using it as his base of operations for as long as he did definitely didn't help matters as the place is established to amplify your negative thoughts, which, in this case, was Ashfur's obsession, pettiness, selfishness to name a few. On top of that, him stewing in StarClan for years and he himself claiming he never got over anything did not help his case. It would seem that Ashfur's own powers are a corrupted form of a StarClan cats', if you will. He’s a fallen angel basically
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