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Post by Aqua on Nov 17, 2021 16:25:02 GMT -5
What do you think?
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Post by Fernsong on Nov 17, 2021 16:37:18 GMT -5
No
That is all
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 17, 2021 16:43:07 GMT -5
Nope.
Just because a character means well, doesn't mean they are good at what they're doing.
Dovewing put her unborn children in danger, then they both moved them at young ages making them vulnerable to predators. Another time one of their kits intentionally snuck off and purposely put themselves, and a pregnant she-cat, in danger, and then got a warrior killed, while thinking they did nothing wrong?? Tiger and Dove being stupidly okay with putting Shadowsight in charge of taking care of the one that manipulated, abused, and attempted to kill him?? They also tried to encourage their son to run away from his problems like a coward, or lie to his clanmates, to save his own skin. While also having the other two children help cover him so they could sneak him out under their clan's nose. Then there's also Tiger's repulsive behavior when he selfishly had no qualms about abandoning Root and Bristle just because he got Shadow back.
No. They're not good parents. They're not the worst obviously, but they're still not good.
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Post by Moonblazer on Nov 17, 2021 16:52:39 GMT -5
I mean, they were a-okay with letting their nearly murdered son be responsible for watching over his own near murderer. Alone. So. That’s certainly something. Traveling to god knows where with unborn kits thanks to a dream that never actually meant anything is also uh. Something. So as nice as they might seem, I’m not giving them many good parent awards for that one.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2021 16:54:44 GMT -5
some of the best in the series. their interactions with shadowsight this arc were some of my favorites in the series, and managed to get me to like tigerheart. dovewing’s always been a favorite, and it was cool to see her happy after all the stuff she went through in thunderclan
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Nov 17, 2021 18:33:42 GMT -5
They're subpar parents, I'd say. Putting their kids in all these dangerous situations does not exactly look good on their record.
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Post by cable on Nov 17, 2021 18:43:53 GMT -5
i think they try to mean well and just want their kids to be happy, but putting shadowsight in charge of watching the guy who manipulated, traumatized, and basically murdered him is extremely questionable at best.
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Post by 𝔯𝔞𝔟𝔟𝔦𝔱𝔣𝔯𝔬𝔰𝔱 on Nov 17, 2021 18:47:45 GMT -5
Definitely not. They allowed Shadowsight to care for Ashfur after he had attempted to murder Shadowsight. They never sided with Shadowsight - they pretended to be backing him up, but at the same time Tigerstar was more than willing to allow Mothwing to take over the ShadowClan medicine den and practically force Shadowsight out.
I think they mean well, but no, they are definitely not good parents.
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Post by Twilight Sparkle on Nov 18, 2021 7:06:59 GMT -5
I think they're good parents on average, but they get worse when there's a crisis they don't know how to handle. On a daily basis they're seen interacting with him often, advising him, worrying for him, but when there's something major going on they don't always seem to think straight.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Nov 19, 2021 9:45:55 GMT -5
They could be better, but they aren't that horrible. They geniuely care for him and support him during his toughest moments. They could be waaay worse.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Nov 19, 2021 11:14:18 GMT -5
Yeah, Dovewing is willing to risk it all for her kits safety and Tigerstar is ready to defend them at any moment. Better than most parents in the books as most parents aren't really in their kits life after they become apprentices/warriors.
(Also I think DW was OOC for Tigerstar)
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Heterosexual
Epic Grandmaster of Headcanons
ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚
Message me your headcanons pls
Pronouns: He/him/his (but they's good too)
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 19, 2021 11:23:44 GMT -5
Yeah, Dovewing is willing to risk it all for her kits safety and Tigerstar is ready to defend them at any moment. Better than most parents in the books as most parents aren't really in their kits life after they become apprentices/warriors. (Also I think DW was OOC for Tigerstar) I think you are absolutely right!
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Post by tallshadowstar on Nov 19, 2021 11:44:58 GMT -5
They're two of the most involved and loving parents that we've seen in this series. Yes, they have flaws and occasionally misstep, but why shouldn't they? Parents who are always perfect aren't very interesting to read about.
I know people hold Dovewing fleeing the Clans against her and point to it as proof that she's a bad mother, but I actually completely understand her reasoning. Half-Clan relationships are frowned upon, and it would be very obvious to anyone in ThunderClan that Tigerheart was the sire of her litter. How would her kits be seen by those around them? And while she could go to Tigerheart, that would be breaking the code even further. So she panicked and ran away, sparing her kits from the fallout of either decision. Was she right to do this? No, running away from the problem wasn't a good solution. But I get why she did it.
Also, Tigerheart tried to sneak Shadowsight out because a good portion of the Clan cats wanted to kill him. You should encourage your children to own up to their mistakes and do the right thing, but I doubt that any parent would recommend this without hesitation when they know that doing so could lead to their child's death. He also needs to balance his role as a father with his duty to ShadowClan, and even then he often prioritizes his son. When Shadowsight was indirectly responsible for the imposter's reign of terror and two senior medicine cats advised demoting him, at a certain point he needed to acquiesce. I agree that the guarding Ashfur thing was stupid, but I see that as more of a necessity for the plot than anything.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Nov 19, 2021 11:48:32 GMT -5
Meh. I have seen much better but also way worse.
Still chose "Yes" though (and made this poll be evenly split at 12 votes each for a bit).
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Heterosexual
Epic Grandmaster of Headcanons
ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚
Message me your headcanons pls
Pronouns: He/him/his (but they's good too)
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Post by ˈʔɛɱb̪ɻ̩f̞ʊt̠̚ on Nov 19, 2021 12:11:04 GMT -5
Tied
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Post by Aqua on Nov 19, 2021 15:02:44 GMT -5
They're two of the most involved and loving parents that we've seen in this series. Yes, they have flaws and occasionally misstep, but why shouldn't they? Parents who are always perfect aren't very interesting to read about. I know people hold Dovewing fleeing the Clans against her and point to it as proof that she's a bad mother, but I actually completely understand her reasoning. Half-Clan relationships are frowned upon, and it would be very obvious to anyone in ThunderClan that Tigerheart was the sire of her litter. How would her kits be seen by those around them? And while she could go to Tigerheart, that would be breaking the code even further. So she panicked and ran away, sparing her kits from the fallout of either decision. Was she right to do this? No, running away from the problem wasn't a good solution. But I get why she did it. Also, Tigerheart tried to sneak Shadowsight out because a good portion of the Clan cats wanted to kill him. You should encourage your children to own up to their mistakes and do the right thing, but I doubt that any parent would recommend this without hesitation when they know that doing so could lead to their child's death. He also needs to balance his role as a father with his duty to ShadowClan, and even then he often prioritizes his son. When Shadowsight was indirectly responsible for the imposter's reign of terror and two senior medicine cats advised demoting him, at a certain point he needed to acquiesce. I agree that the guarding Ashfur thing was stupid, but I see that as more of a necessity for the plot than anything. Pretty much this. Dovewing has always been good to Shadowsight and it's her encouragement to tell Shadowsight to be honest is what made him want to do the right thing in the first place. I always thought Dovewing was a good mother despite her mistakes, and even a good sister to Ivypool. She's had her own inner conflicts about Tigerheart, but she has always been a kind, caring cat, worrying about Ivypool being in the dark forest and only stayed to be with Tigerheart not because she was selfish, but because she wanted to keep her family together. Honestly, my only gripe with Dovewing is that she used Bumblestripe to move on from Tigerheart, but other than that she really hasn't done anything wrong in my book.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Nov 19, 2021 15:05:11 GMT -5
i voted no. while dovewing is a bit more ok than tigerheart, i still dont think they're all that amazing either.
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#a3c5e6
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𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 19, 2021 15:20:48 GMT -5
They're decent.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Nov 19, 2021 15:45:13 GMT -5
I know people hold Dovewing fleeing the Clans against her and point to it as proof that she's a bad mother, but I actually completely understand her reasoning. Half-Clan relationships are frowned upon, and it would be very obvious to anyone in ThunderClan that Tigerheart was the sire of her litter. How would her kits be seen by those around them? And while she could go to Tigerheart, that would be breaking the code even further. So she panicked and ran away, sparing her kits from the fallout of either decision. Was she right to do this? No, running away from the problem wasn't a good solution. But I get why she did it. It wasn't even that, or at least not the main reason. Dovewing makes it clear that she left because of a continuous nightmare that kept getting worse every time she had it and it's heavily implied she had it because she was still pregnant with Shadowkit. Daisy, thinking it was just a regular nightmare, tells Dovewing she could've just come to her and I remember seeing people agree, but even Alderheart had his doubts on this, the nursery actually was destroyed while Dovewing was away, the dream—including the location Dovewing had to go to—was pretty specific, and it's incredibly rare for something this important to just be nothing anyway, especially in this series.
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Post by tallshadowstar on Nov 19, 2021 15:56:51 GMT -5
It wasn't even that, or at least not the main reason. Dovewing makes it clear that she left because of a continuous nightmare that kept getting worse every time she had it and it's heavily implied she had it because she was still pregnant with Shadowkit. Daisy, thinking it was just a regular nightmare, tells Dovewing she could've just come to her and I remember seeing people agree, but even Alderheart had his doubts on this, the nursery actually was destroyed while Dovewing was away, the dream—including the location Dovewing had to go to—was pretty specific, and it's incredibly rare for something this important to just be nothing anyway, especially in this series. Whoa, I didn't even remember this! It's been ages since I've read ThS, so thank you for clarifying. I think my mind just sort of filled in the blanks in my memory with my own subjective interpretation of Dovewing.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 19, 2021 18:09:20 GMT -5
Dovewing and Tigerheart aren’t the worse parents ever, but that’s not saying much. They routinely made very irrational decisions that have endangered their children . Dovewing just running off to who knows where because of Nightmares isn’t structurally sound judgement. And reasoning that it’s understandable because cross-clan relationships are frowned upon doesn’t make it a good parental choice. And given how little backlash she receives from both Thunderclan and Shadowclan when she returns back to the clans anyway , weakens the validity of this point imo.
But of course she’s thrown every narrative bone in the book to try to play it off as justified or that she made the right choice. And Tigerheart wanting to rush back home while the kittens are still very young is horrible judgement as well, and very dangerous. shows a lack of forethought or planning , and is very impulsive which is never a good trait for rearing children and is signs of bad parenting , but of course more narrative bones are thrown into the midst to make it seem all fine and dandy.
And while Dovewing was a compassionate and supportive mother mostly throughout TBC, Tigerheart sure as hell wasn’t , and given the fact that Dovewing never raised a paw or challenged Tigerheart for forcing Shadowsight to care for Ashfur and being demoted back down to apprentice after being manipulated , and being put through tirades of Psychological and emotional abuse, which will undoubtedly leave some lingering, intangible scarring on the poor guy for the rest of his life most likely. Is just another telltale sign of poor parenting .
Imo neither of these 2 are fit to be parents or even deserve children. There far too impulsive, stubborn, arrogant and have exhibited countless cases of extremely questionable Judgement calls, and very unsettling, and unnerving parenting methods .
And of course them encouraging Shadowsight to run away from the problems, that aren’t really entirely his fault, instead of supporting him to take accountability and be willing to stand strong and still put forth the effort to make things right and contribute as much as he can, while many resented and hated him at the time. Isn’t very modeled behavior, and certainly isn’t promoting good character growth at all. They may have had good intentions for the most part, but that’s about it, and good intentions don’t really equate good parenting in reality Or lessen the weight of their poor parenting imo.
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Post by cable on Nov 19, 2021 19:05:22 GMT -5
Dovewing just running off to who knows where because of Nightmares isn’t structurally sound judgement. it actually checks out. this is warriors, where dreams are rarely just dreams, and shes received omens before due to her association with a major prophecy.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 19, 2021 19:38:39 GMT -5
Dovewing just running off to who knows where because of Nightmares isn’t structurally sound judgement. it actually checks out. this is warriors, where dreams are rarely just dreams, and shes received omens before due to her association with a major prophecy. I mean given that prophetic dreams are usually reserved for leaders and medicine cats, and on the occasion that they are given to regular warriors involved in a prophecy, theres usually a starclan cat passing on some prophetic message , or at least an ethereal voice, not just Dreaming of some random location without any other instructions or context . Could easily be attributed to lucid dreams as well, really it’s a bit of a coin toss and nothing truly confirming them as visions, so still not a very good decision imo. Edit: also given the recent questionability revolving around Starclans judgement, they are hardly worth taking seriously in their current state.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2021 19:44:52 GMT -5
it actually checks out. this is warriors, where dreams are rarely just dreams, and shes received omens before due to her association with a major prophecy. I mean given that prophetic dreams are usually reserved for leaders and medicine cats, and on the occasion that they are given to regular warriors involved in a prophecy, theres usually a starclan cat passing on some prophetic message , or at least an ethereal voice, not just Dreaming of some random location without any other instructions or context . Could easily be attributed to lucid dreams as well, really it’s a bit of a coin toss and nothing truly confirming them as visions, so still not a very good decision imo. I mean even if they aren’t actual omens it makes sense why dovewing would think they were
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 19, 2021 19:48:45 GMT -5
I mean given that prophetic dreams are usually reserved for leaders and medicine cats, and on the occasion that they are given to regular warriors involved in a prophecy, theres usually a starclan cat passing on some prophetic message , or at least an ethereal voice, not just Dreaming of some random location without any other instructions or context . Could easily be attributed to lucid dreams as well, really it’s a bit of a coin toss and nothing truly confirming them as visions, so still not a very good decision imo. I mean even if they aren’t actual omens it makes sense why dovewing would think they were well all the other times she had prophetic dreams she was visited by a starclan cat as I remember so don’t see how that would check out. Even so is still a coin toss , and pretty momentous decision to be putting all ones faith upon luck, so still not decisive, concrete Judgement making skills.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2021 19:49:36 GMT -5
I mean even if they aren’t actual omens it makes sense why dovewing would think they were well all the other times she had prophetic dreams she was visited by a starclan cat as I remember so don’t see how that would check out. Even so is still a coin toss , and pretty momentous decision to be putting all ones faith upon luck, so still not decisive, concrete Judgement making skills. not every decision needs to be decisive and concrete though, plus she was already in a very stressful position
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Nov 19, 2021 20:10:29 GMT -5
I think it's funny that no matter how close this poll is, the mere fact that it's close at all just shows how split the fandom is on their parenting.
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Nov 19, 2021 20:48:32 GMT -5
well all the other times she had prophetic dreams she was visited by a starclan cat as I remember so don’t see how that would check out. Even so is still a coin toss , and pretty momentous decision to be putting all ones faith upon luck, so still not decisive, concrete Judgement making skills. not every decision needs to be decisive and concrete though, plus she was already in a very stressful position I mean having good, sound decisive Judgement, and not being intransigent and being able to remain calm, and collected under stressful conditions are ideal traits and foundation for good parenting. If stressful conditions are all it takes for one to buckle under the pressure, and start Making poor, sporadical, impulsive judgement calls then you shouldn’t be a parent imo, cause that’s a pretty rocky ride for whatever children you do have.
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