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Post by Chicken on Sept 17, 2021 12:07:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I really don't think he's manipulative either, even when starting out, it was Whitewing and Rosepetal pressuring Dovewing to date Bumblestripe, and it never even mentioned that, yet, some people still think that he pressured two warriors older than him, to have them pressure Dovewing to date him, even though it's never even said or hinted at that, I feel like sometimes this is read too much into, kind of like how people think Graystripe is a bad dad to his litter with Millie, because he's not really shown in their lives much. I may not like Bumblestripe, but this is the part that I don't get, either. It's not like Bumblestripe was really trying to hide his crush on her. Blossomfall was the first to tease Dovewing about it iirc, Cinderheart likely didn't want to see another cat pass up on the chance of a potentially happy life, Rosepetal was friends with both of them and only really got involved when she thought Dovewing was being too harsh, Whitewing is Dovewing's mother, so of course she'd try to get involved in her daughter's love life, and Ivypool was just glad to see her sister seemingly move on from Tigerheart. And as we know, the Clans love to gossip. I really doubt Bumblestripe had a paw in any of this other than making his feelings incredibly obvious to everyone except Dovewing, who had just broken up with Tigerheart and lost her powers at this point, on top on having nightmares. A new relationship would be the last thing on her mind, but of course, no one knew this. It makes sense why she didn't notice it at first. Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. Also, there were more cats involved in this than I remember! Jeez, no wonder Dovewing was so ticked off, I'd be too if someone kept pressuring me to date someone I didn't want to, though, I wish she would have been straight forward with Bumblestripe and everyone else, because it might have ended this a lot sooner, though, I can understand why she would be hesitant to, it's not always easy to share your true feelings, especially when it might hurt someone else.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 12:10:44 GMT -5
He really isn't as bad as people make him out to be, just like other toms in the fandom, he tends to get villainized for no real reason lol. didn't he try to hit on dovewing at her friend's funeral People act as if he just killed a kitten or something just because he was being socially inept. He wasn't "hitting" on Dovewing as you so crudely put it. In context he was asking if Dovewing, his ex-wife, could consider retrying their relationship again because witnessing death made him ponder the fact that "life is too short". And quite literally prior to that Dovewing was pondering the idea of being with Bumblestripe again. He asked her to think about it, and actually wanted to have a proper conversation about their relationship at some point (something Dovewing is aware of but purposely avoids because she doesn't want to "break his heart") before leaving her to herself. He wasn't pressuring her, being sleezy, or attempting to force her into an ultimatum. My point still stands. The fandom villainizes him and he's overhated for the dumbest reasons, when in comparison we never hear as much bustle about how crappy Dovewing treated him, the irony.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2021 12:20:14 GMT -5
didn't he try to hit on dovewing at her friend's funeral People act as if he just killed a kitten or something just because he was being socially inept. He wasn't "hitting" on Dovewing as you so crudely put it. In context he was asking if Dovewing, his ex-wife, could consider retrying their relationship again because witnessing death made him ponder the fact that "life is too short". And quite literally prior to that Dovewing was pondering the idea of being with Bumblestripe again. He asked her to think about it, and actually wanted to have a proper conversation about their relationship at some point (something Dovewing is aware of but purposely avoids because she doesn't want to "break his heart") before leaving her to herself. He wasn't pressuring her, being sleezy, or attempting to force her into an ultimatum. My point still stands. The fandom villainizes him and he's overhated for the dumbest reasons, when in comparison we never hear as much bustle about how crappy Dovewing treated him, the irony. it’s true dovewing’s an evil women for not being a flat character and bumblestripe is just a poor little meow meow who did nothing wrong, the warriors cats fandom just hates men and misandry is real /s
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 12:25:23 GMT -5
People act as if he just killed a kitten or something just because he was being socially inept. He wasn't "hitting" on Dovewing as you so crudely put it. In context he was asking if Dovewing, his ex-wife, could consider retrying their relationship again because witnessing death made him ponder the fact that "life is too short". And quite literally prior to that Dovewing was pondering the idea of being with Bumblestripe again. He asked her to think about it, and actually wanted to have a proper conversation about their relationship at some point (something Dovewing is aware of but purposely avoids because she doesn't want to "break his heart") before leaving her to herself. He wasn't pressuring her, being sleezy, or attempting to force her into an ultimatum. My point still stands. The fandom villainizes him and he's overhated for the dumbest reasons, when in comparison we never hear as much bustle about how crappy Dovewing treated him, the irony. it’s true dovewing’s an evil women for not being a flat character and bumblestripe is just a poor little meow meow who did nothing wrong, the warriors cats fandom just hates men and misandry is real /s Not what I said but lol okay. I never said Dovewing was "an evil woman" And I never said Bumblestripe "did nothing wrong" And if it's not obvious to you to how the fandom likes to treat male characters then congratulations for never having to experience those levels of toxicity in your bubble. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just remember this is a discussion about fictional cats and your unnecessary sarcasm isn't needed.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 17, 2021 12:32:33 GMT -5
it’s true dovewing’s an evil women for not being a flat character and bumblestripe is just a poor little meow meow who did nothing wrong, the warriors cats fandom just hates men and misandry is real /s Not what I said but lol okay. I never said Dovewing was "an evil woman" And I never said Bumblestripe "did nothing wrong" And if it's not obvious to you to how the fandom likes to treat male characters then congratulations for never having to experience those levels of toxicity in your bubble. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just remember this is a discussion about fictional cats and your unnecessary sarcasm isn't needed. The funny part of that sarcastic little jab is that they think Dovewing isn’t a flat character lmao. Trust me. This one’s not worth the effort, Maple.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 17, 2021 12:33:27 GMT -5
it’s true dovewing’s an evil women for not being a flat character and bumblestripe is just a poor little meow meow who did nothing wrong, the warriors cats fandom just hates men and misandry is real /s Not what I said but lol okay. I never said Dovewing was "an evil woman" And I never said Bumblestripe "did nothing wrong" And if it's not obvious to you to how the fandom likes to treat male characters then congratulations for never having to experience those levels of toxicity in your bubble. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just remember this is a discussion about fictional cats and your unnecessary sarcasm isn't needed. It's not just the fandom either honestly. The she-cats always get way more personality and a story than the toms do, and 99% of the time, the toms are written to be hotheaded jerks, and the she-cats are written to be the level headed and reasonable ones. Also, all the toms are villains for selfish reasons, but the one she-cat villain is a villain for sympathetic reasons. Also, the list of bad dads/bad tom mates vs bad moms/ bad she-cat mates is overwhelming. I know that more toms have been in power, but when you think about Icewing vs Harestar, or Minnowtail vs Kestrelflight, who do you know more about?
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Post by rileytheworm on Sept 17, 2021 12:37:16 GMT -5
Not what I said but lol okay. I never said Dovewing was "an evil woman" And I never said Bumblestripe "did nothing wrong" And if it's not obvious to you to how the fandom likes to treat male characters then congratulations for never having to experience those levels of toxicity in your bubble. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just remember this is a discussion about fictional cats and your unnecessary sarcasm isn't needed. It's not just the fandom either honestly. The she-cats always get way more personality and a story than the toms do, and 99% of the time, the toms are written to be hotheaded jerks, and the she-cats are written to be the level headed and reasonable ones. Also, all the toms are villains for selfish reasons, but the one she-cat villain is a villain for sympathetic reasons. Also, the list of bad dads/bad tom mates vs bad moms/ bad she-cat mates is overwhelming. I know that more toms have been in power, but when you think about Icewing vs Harestar, or Minnowtail vs Kestrelflight, who do you know more about? id agree with you if it weren't for the fact that female characters tend to be punished more by the narrative for certain things the male characters aren't. for example, the trial scene in squirrelflight's hope, where leafpool and squirrelflight are interrogated and shamed by starclan for breaking the code and lying, when that's something starclan told them to do.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 12:39:06 GMT -5
It's not just the fandom either honestly. The she-cats always get way more personality and a story than the toms do, and 99% of the time, the toms are written to be hotheaded jerks, and the she-cats are written to be the level headed and reasonable ones. Also, all the toms are villains for selfish reasons, but the one she-cat villain is a villain for sympathetic reasons. Also, the list of bad dads/bad tom mates vs bad moms/ bad she-cat mates is overwhelming. I know that more toms have been in power, but when you think about Icewing vs Harestar, or Minnowtail vs Kestrelflight, who do you know more about? id agree with you if it weren't for the fact that female characters tend to be punished more by the narrative for certain things the male characters aren't. for example, the trial scene in squirrelflight's hope, where leafpool and squirrelflight are interrogated and shamed by starclan for breaking the code and lying, when that's something starclan told them to do. But isn't that the first time they even implemented the whole trial situation in the first place? Are there any toms that were ever in that situation comparably? I feel like that's less of a she-cat thing and more of a general thing, especially when there were she-cats in the jury called out for breaking the code too, Yellowfang and Bluestar. Not to mention Leafpool is a medicine cat, she broke the cross-clan rule but that can easily be solved by moving clans, but because she broke the rules as a medicine cat, that is entirely something else. The three were supposed to be born, but not through Leafpool.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 12:45:34 GMT -5
Not what I said but lol okay. I never said Dovewing was "an evil woman" And I never said Bumblestripe "did nothing wrong" And if it's not obvious to you to how the fandom likes to treat male characters then congratulations for never having to experience those levels of toxicity in your bubble. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just remember this is a discussion about fictional cats and your unnecessary sarcasm isn't needed. The funny part of that sarcastic little jab is that they think Dovewing isn’t a flat character lmao. Trust me. This one’s not worth the effort, Maple. Seriously, if I had a nickle for every time someone brought up Graystripe, Bumblstripe, Bramblestar, etc and accused them of being "abusive, neglectful, or manipulative" I would be rich at this point.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 17, 2021 12:46:36 GMT -5
It's not just the fandom either honestly. The she-cats always get way more personality and a story than the toms do, and 99% of the time, the toms are written to be hotheaded jerks, and the she-cats are written to be the level headed and reasonable ones. Also, all the toms are villains for selfish reasons, but the one she-cat villain is a villain for sympathetic reasons. Also, the list of bad dads/bad tom mates vs bad moms/ bad she-cat mates is overwhelming. I know that more toms have been in power, but when you think about Icewing vs Harestar, or Minnowtail vs Kestrelflight, who do you know more about? id agree with you if it weren't for the fact that female characters tend to be punished more by the narrative for certain things the male characters aren't. for example, the trial scene in squirrelflight's hope, where leafpool and squirrelflight are interrogated and shamed by starclan for breaking the code and lying, when that's something starclan told them to do. I think that's so they get more sympathy, so the readers will like them more. This happens a lot in writing, people will put their favorite characters, who they want people to root for, through a lot of turmoil, so people will root for them. No one is going to root for a character whose life is just smooth sailing.
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Post by rileytheworm on Sept 17, 2021 12:48:41 GMT -5
id agree with you if it weren't for the fact that female characters tend to be punished more by the narrative for certain things the male characters aren't. for example, the trial scene in squirrelflight's hope, where leafpool and squirrelflight are interrogated and shamed by starclan for breaking the code and lying, when that's something starclan told them to do. But isn't that the first time they even implemented the whole trial situation in the first place? Are there any toms that were ever in that situation comparably? I feel like that's less of a she-cat thing and more of a general thing, especially when there were she-cats in the jury called out for breaking the code too, Yellowfang and Bluestar. Not to mention Leafpool is a medicine cat, she broke the cross-clan rule but that can easily be solved by moving clans, but because she broke the rules as a medicine cat, that is entirely something else. The three were supposed to be born, but not through Leafpool. ok. now name all the times toms were punished for having a mate in another clan
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Post by Chicken on Sept 17, 2021 12:53:58 GMT -5
But isn't that the first time they even implemented the whole trial situation in the first place? Are there any toms that were ever in that situation comparably? I feel like that's less of a she-cat thing and more of a general thing, especially when there were she-cats in the jury called out for breaking the code too, Yellowfang and Bluestar. Not to mention Leafpool is a medicine cat, she broke the cross-clan rule but that can easily be solved by moving clans, but because she broke the rules as a medicine cat, that is entirely something else. The three were supposed to be born, but not through Leafpool. ok. now name all the times toms were punished for having a mate in another clan Reedfeather was literally almost drowned to death for wanting his kits in his clan with him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2021 12:54:20 GMT -5
ok. now name all the times toms were punished for having a mate in another clan Reedfeather was literally almost drowned to death for wanting his kits in his clan with him. kidnapping. he was kidnapping them.
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Post by Chicken on Sept 17, 2021 12:55:08 GMT -5
Reedfeather was literally almost drowned to death for wanting his kits in his clan with him. kidnapping. he was kidnapping them. No... Fallowtail agreed to give them to him, and then Hailstar noticed how sad she was, so he came and stole them back.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 17, 2021 12:57:09 GMT -5
Dislike. While I don't think that Bumblestripe is an incel (like Ashfur) I'm still not a fan of him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2021 12:57:51 GMT -5
kidnapping. he was kidnapping them. No... Fallowtail agreed to give them to him, and then Hailstar noticed how sad she was, so he came and stole them back. ok but like. you see how that’s different from leafpool being fired from her job right? and having to prove that she deserved to go to starclan? reedwhisker wasn’t drowned for having a half-clan relationship or kits, he was drowned for breaking into riverclan and trying to steal kits
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Post by Chicken on Sept 17, 2021 12:58:49 GMT -5
No... Fallowtail agreed to give them to him, and then Hailstar noticed how sad she was, so he came and stole them back. ok but like. you see how that’s different from leafpool being fired from her job right? and having to prove that she deserved to go to starclan? reedwhisker wasn’t drowned for having a half-clan relationship or kits, he was drowned for breaking into riverclan and trying to steal kits But Leafpool wasn't fired, she stepped down on her own accord, so your argument is invalid. However, this thread is about Bumblestripe, so I'm going to leave it here.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 17, 2021 13:05:10 GMT -5
But isn't that the first time they even implemented the whole trial situation in the first place? Are there any toms that were ever in that situation comparably? I feel like that's less of a she-cat thing and more of a general thing, especially when there were she-cats in the jury called out for breaking the code too, Yellowfang and Bluestar. Not to mention Leafpool is a medicine cat, she broke the cross-clan rule but that can easily be solved by moving clans, but because she broke the rules as a medicine cat, that is entirely something else. The three were supposed to be born, but not through Leafpool. ok. now name all the times toms were punished for having a mate in another clan Graystripe was consistently judged, distrusted and banished the second he did not obey Leopardstar in basically her trying to murder Fireheart. He also had to watch his kits nearly be murdered for being half-clan and had no choice but to bring them to Riverclan to prevent a War for them. Crowfeather was as equally hated as Leafpool was for being the father of the Three when he had 0 knowledge that they had even been his kits. Leafpool punished herself here. Nobody punished her for it. Besides Mapleshade, what she-cat has ever truly been punished for having an interclan relationship rather than her making her own decision to sneak her kits to their father or join her mate of her own volition? We have alot more POVs and development of she-cats who broke the code than the toms who did. Which just goes to show that their focus is never as strong as a she-cat’s in the series at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2021 13:12:56 GMT -5
ok. now name all the times toms were punished for having a mate in another clan Graystripe was consistently judged, distrusted and banished the second he did not obey Leopardstar in basically her trying to murder Fireheart. He also had to watch his kits nearly be murdered for being half-clan and had no choice but to bring them to Riverclan to prevent a War for them. Crowfeather was as equally hated as Leafpool was for being the father of the Three when he had 0 knowledge that they had even been his kits. Leafpool punished herself here. Nobody punished her for it. Besides Mapleshade, what she-cat has ever truly been punished for having an interclan relationship rather than her making her own decision to sneak her kits to their father or join her mate of her own volition? We have alot more POVs and development of she-cats who broke the code than the toms who did. Which just goes to show that their focus is never as strong as a she-cat’s in the series at this point. I mean graystripe didn’t die and became deputy so that’s a pretty big plus crowfeather isn’t dead yet, but we saw that leafpool literally had to argue her way into starclan so it remains to be seen if he’ll do the same (though I highly doubt it). he was also made deputy bluestar was given a prophecy that she had to give up her kits to save the clan, something that she struggled to do and that haunted her for the rest of her life (oakheart was able to become deputy without making this sacrifice, as were the other two above) the reason we rarely get this from the eyes of a tom is because it barely effects them!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 13:16:00 GMT -5
But isn't that the first time they even implemented the whole trial situation in the first place? Are there any toms that were ever in that situation comparably? I feel like that's less of a she-cat thing and more of a general thing, especially when there were she-cats in the jury called out for breaking the code too, Yellowfang and Bluestar. Not to mention Leafpool is a medicine cat, she broke the cross-clan rule but that can easily be solved by moving clans, but because she broke the rules as a medicine cat, that is entirely something else. The three were supposed to be born, but not through Leafpool. ok. now name all the times toms were punished for having a mate in another clan Note: Wall Text. Graystripe and Silverstream: Silverstream's birth complications led to her death which quite literally devastated Graystripe's character for ages. Even when he moved on he still was traumatized by this occurrence. Not to mention he loses Feathertail down the line too. The effects would have been the same regardless of if the role was reversed or not. Graystripe was also continuously mistrusted, questioned and even banished at one point because of his fickle loyalties. Bluestar and Oakheart: They both lost Mosskit. In Bluestar's SE they confirm it was her choice to give away her kits, because she personally believd it was for the greater good. And that later led to Mosskit's death. They were still Oakheart's kits too and he loved them just as much as her, they both were punished. Heck even Thrushpelt is indirectly punished. Fallowtail and Reedfeather: Reedfeather had as much right to his kits as Fallowtail did, where as I disagreed with how he went about it, it wasn't kitnapping. Fallowtail willingly gave up her kits, despite Hailstar saying he had no qualms in going to war for them. It is Hailstar and his group that actually kitnap the kits later and in the process Reedfeather and Hailstar almost killed one another over them. If anyone was kitnapping it was RiverClan, morally good or not. Cloudberry and Ryewhisker: This one was just basically reverse GraySilver, where instead it's the tom, Ryewhisker, who gets iced and it happens during a battle. In regards to Medicine cats breaking rules, as I said, that's something on it's own. Medicine cats are technically spiritual figures with strong ties to StarClan, they are herbal doctors and religious messengers in the warrior cat's universe. Their rule is that they are not allowed to have kits while in their position, regardless of their gender, and that was made clear in DotC. With that being said, both Yellowfang and Leafpool broke that rule, and were punished for it. They took the medicine cat oath, not Raggedstar and Crowfeather. And even then Raggedstar's own song murked him while his other kits didn't even make it. While Crowfeather didn't even know he had TC children this whole time, and even though he rejected them his clan still lost any trust they had in him, and questioned his loyalties constantly in OotS. While later own his own son became a DF trainee and his only daughter got murked. The only genuinely messy punishment bias was Mapleshade's. And even then her being exiled from ThunderClan was moreso on the fact that her leader had personal bias against her and the kits because of who the father was. Appledusk was also punished, as said by Darkstar, because of the deaths of his kits, but the questionable fairness arises because of how much easier he got off from his punishment compared to Mapleshade; him keeping his place in RiverClan, keeping one of his mates, and having a replaceable litter on the way. But it's as already pointed out, this was the one time the Erins made a she-cat villain and even then gave her a "sympathetic" perspective compared to tom villains that get much more selfish ones. My point is that, Leafpool and Yellowfang's punishments were more so on them because of their medicine cat positions. Crossclan relationships are easily solvable, either move clans, or give up custody, it really is up to those said couples. But a medicine cat has a duty to fulfill to StarClan, and Leafpool most certainly was not supposed to be the mother of the prophesied three.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 13:27:59 GMT -5
[/font][/ul][/quote]There's a difference between being punished by the narrative vs punished by the in story authority. Leafpool and Yellowfang, two medicine cats that literally broke the medicine cat oath were both punished by the in story authority, but not because they were she-cats, but because they were medicine cats. The cross-mate rule is easily solvable compared to the medicine cat rule....that is the point. Also death is quite literally not the worst punishment in this series, especially because of the existence of StarClan and their overall involvement into the story's narrative in general.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 17, 2021 13:31:13 GMT -5
I can already see this thread getting locked soon from a mile away. So maybe we should stir it back to the actual topic of Bumblestripe and let other people state their opinion on him instead of having yet another sexism discussion where it doesn't belong. Perhaps someone can make a seperate post about it on Warriors General before things escalate.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 14:01:14 GMT -5
Agreed.
Back to the point, Bumblestripe is just socially inept. No one is denying that what he did was bad timing, however, we do disagree with the nonsensical notion that he's just some manipulative spawn of satan that was trying to pressure Dovewing into being his kit machine like so many paint him as.
It's fine if you dislike him for his poor timing behavior, but again, imo it's ridiculous to see how villainized he is in the fandom when in reality he's just some piteously pathetic lovesick puppy that thought he still had a chance to save his dying relationship with a she-cat that never even gave him the time of the day even when they were together. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I may like Bumblestripe but I have no qualms in viewing his paddling after Dovewing as lip-purse worthy. But in the same breath, I have no problem in having the same disapproval toward Dovewing's socially inept behavior as well and how she avoids her problems even though she's aware of them. Both of them obviously have communication issues, but the imo the fandom just tends to focus more on Bumblestripe's in favor of Dovewing.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 17, 2021 14:02:09 GMT -5
There's a difference between being punished by the narrative vs punished by the in story authority. Leafpool and Yellowfang, two medicine cats that literally broke the medicine cat oath were both punished by the in story authority, but not because they were she-cats, but because they were medicine cats. The cross-mate rule is easily solvable compared to the medicine cat rule....that is the point. Also death is quite literally not the worst punishment in this serious, especially because of the existence of StarClan and their overall involvement into the story's narrative in general. yellowfang's kits were conceived prior to her becoming a medicine cat and she was still forced to give them up lest she wish to become a warrior again; mudfur was allowed to become a medicine cat despite already having had kits AND was allowed to maintain his relationship with his remaining kit thereafter. there's no clear-cut parallel situation to leafpool but she was literally goaded into "following her heart" by a starclan cat while she was still struggling with the weight of the oath she'd just sworn to (which - given that she'd spent no time as a warrior or even a warrior apprentice - meant giving up experiences that she'd neither personally been through nor which she'd ever even really been given the chance to think about prior).
starclan is literally the shittiest afterlife paradise possible but even ignoring that, being torn away from your life and your family in an excruciatingly painful and terrifying way before your time is absolutely the worst punishment?? especially given that leafpool's trial establishes that breaking the code is tangible grounds to be sent to hell (+ the fact that mollies who die via childbirth virtually never show up again except for the sake of nourishing manpain lol)
As much as you may have some points in terms of Starclan sucking because it for sure does, Mudfur is irrelevant in this argument because he had been a Warrior and had kits long before he ever even wanted to consider being a Medicine Cat. That’s vastly different to Leafpool and Yellowfang, who were both trained in the ways of a Medicine Cat and with an oath to it long before they had their kits. This still doesn’t have anything to do with them being she-cats. They aren’t punished because they’re she-cats. They’re punished for code-breaking, and I guarantee you if the series showed more trials and gave us a tom Medicine Cat who had kits after already swearing an oath to the Medicine Code, then they would get the exact same treatment. Maybe we’ll get one one day when the series does focus more on a tom’s POV of the kinds of choices that Medicine Cats like Leafpool and Yellowfang made. I know it’s popular these days to try and find every ounce of social justice and apply it to a children’s cat book…but I genuinely think that you’re looking too deep into this and making it into something it’s not… I don’t want to derail the actual thread topic any longer, so this is my last word on the matter. I don’t disagree that Starclan is cruel to the medicine cats, but I don’t think their gender has much to do with it besides the fact that female cats physically give birth.
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Post by Moonblazer on Sept 17, 2021 14:02:52 GMT -5
Agreed. Back to the point, Bumblestripe is just socially inept. No one is denying that what he did was bad timing, however, we do disagree with the nonsensical notion that he's just some manipulative spawn of satan that was trying to pressure Dovewing into being his kit machine like so many paint him as. It's fine if you dislike him for his poor timing behavior, but again, imo it's ridiculous to see how villainized he is in the fandom when in reality he's just some piteously pathetic lovesick puppy that thought he still had a chance to save his dying relationship with a she-cat that never even gave him the time of the day even when they were together. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I may like Bumblestripe but I have no qualms in viewing his paddling after Dovewing as lip-purse worthy. But in the same breath, I have no problem in having the same disapproval toward Dovewing's socially inept behavior as well and how she avoids her problems even though she's aware of them. Both of them obviously have communication issues, but the imo the fandom just tends to focus more on Bumblestripe's in favor of Dovewing. This 100 percent. You summed it up perfectly
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 14:25:34 GMT -5
There's a difference between being punished by the narrative vs punished by the in story authority. Leafpool and Yellowfang, two medicine cats that literally broke the medicine cat oath were both punished by the in story authority, but not because they were she-cats, but because they were medicine cats. The cross-mate rule is easily solvable compared to the medicine cat rule....that is the point. Also death is quite literally not the worst punishment in this serious, especially because of the existence of StarClan and their overall involvement into the story's narrative in general. yellowfang's kits were conceived prior to her becoming a medicine cat and she was still forced to give them up lest she wish to become a warrior again; mudfur was allowed to become a medicine cat despite already having had kits AND was allowed to maintain his relationship with his remaining kit thereafter. there's no clear-cut parallel situation to leafpool but she was literally goaded into "following her heart" by a starclan cat while she was still struggling with the weight of the oath she'd just sworn to (which - given that she'd spent no time as a warrior or even a warrior apprentice - meant giving up experiences that she'd neither personally been through nor which she'd ever even really been given the chance to think about prior).
starclan is literally the shittiest afterlife paradise possible but even ignoring that, being torn away from your life and your family in an excruciatingly painful and terrifying way before your time is absolutely the worst punishment?? especially given that leafpool's trial establishes that breaking the code is tangible grounds to be sent to hell (+ the fact that mollies who die via childbirth virtually never show up again except for the sake of nourishing manpain lol)
edit - that aside bumblestripe sucks and he's boring to boot which is the worst crime a character can possibly commit imo. get back to me when he pulls an ashfur and starts attacking people or something
No offense but that's incorrect. Yellowfang became a medicine cat apprentice and told Raggedstar that she'll be his medicine cat, over being his deputy, one day. They both obviously didn't want that, so they decided to be mates in secret, Yellowfang was aware she was breaking the code at this point. It's only after she becomes a full fledged medicine cat, finished with her training, does she break things off with Raggedstar. It is sometime later at a gathering that she realizes she's pregnant. Yellowfang was in an active relationship with Raggedstar while training to be a medicine cat. She was aware she was breaking the code. And doesn't fully commit to her duties as a medicine cat until earning her full medicine cat name. Leopardstar was born before Mudfur became a medicine cat. And Mudfur also was not in an active relationship while training and becoming a fully fledged medicine cat. In fact, the whole reason he even asked to become a medicine cat was because of losing his mate and kits, and after his 1v1 fight with Adderfang, by then Leopardstar is even an apprentice. They are not comparable. In order for it to be comparable, Yellowfang would have had to have kits prior to her training, and broke off things with Raggedstar as well/or he died before then like Brightsky. Whereas I do agree that StarClan sucks imo, at the end of the day it's where "good cats" want to go after death and its their equivalent of what "paradise" is supposed to be. Death is how you perceive it. It can be painful, peaceful, quick or dragged out, but it's not always the black and white definition of "the worst punishment" Especially when warriors believe in the "life after death" scenario with StarClan. Joining their ancestors and looking over their loved ones. Quite literally their whole society is built in favor of honoring their passed ancestors and living by the codes they created. As for Leafpool, at the end of the day she shouldn't have been in a relationship with Crowfeather, even prior to the "follow your heart" comment Spottedleaf made. She took and oath, she was aware of the consequences, she was consciously aware what she was doing was wrong. Just because she thought Spottedleaf's words were validation for her rule breaking still doesn't change the fact that she broke the rules. Do I side with Leafpool in that situation? No lol. Do I side with StarClan? No, cause I'm not fond of them myself but that for personal reasons. With that being said, I think we should be mindful about what information we actually claim is fact when talking about debates like this, especially because false information can spread around quite easily if it suits someone's personal narrative. So I'll just leave this conversation at that for now.
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Post by leopardclan on Sept 17, 2021 14:47:24 GMT -5
Were raggedstar and crowfeather unaware that yellowfang and leafpool are cat nuns? Not to keep going but I'd say if they willingly helped break the that code then they should be in just as much trouble.
Edit: Oh and my bumble thoughts!
I'm not really a fan of him, he does something I think is gross in a unfunny way so he's not the kinda character I enjoy. Like his siblings though!
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Post by brightside on Sept 17, 2021 14:58:19 GMT -5
bumblestripe is very high on the list of cats in this book series that i would probably kick directly into the air like a football
so, no i don't like him very much to be honest
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 17, 2021 17:21:26 GMT -5
Were raggedstar and crowfeather unaware that yellowfang and leafpool are cat nuns? Not to keep going but I'd say if they willingly helped break the that code then they should be in just as much trouble. Should they be punished? Yes, I do think they should. But again, in these two situations it would be more or less pointless or it already happened. Neither Raggedstar or Yellowfang walked away from their relationships unscathed. Both broke the code, both lost kits because of that, neither got to stay in the relationship they mutually wanted, and both were punished. Yellowfang is the one that broke off her relationship with Raggedstar eventually because she decided to finally fully commit to be a medicine cat, albeit pretty darn late. She chose her position over Raggedstar, much to his displeasure. When she realized she was pregnant she told him the truth, he was elated, but she knew in order to raise them they'd have to tell the truth and she'd most likely lose her position. Yellowfang refused, and says another she-cat should foster them, to which Ragged only agrees to unless she agrees that the kits never know their mother. She agreed. In this case they are quite literally essentially punishing each other. Ragged doesn't get to be with Yellowfang again so they can raise their family together, while in turn their kits will never know the true identity of their mother because Yellowfang wants to keep her position. What's interesting about this is that StarClan quite literally told Yellowfang not to give up on Brokenkit when she goes to speak with them. It's Silverflame who tells her that and that she may be his only hope, not them congratulating her on disowning her son in favor of her position. And then the later events of Brokenstar literally murking Raggedstar happens, along with the bloodshed he dragged his clan into, and then even exiling Yellowfang. While with Crowfeather, he and Leafpool never got caught. Their clans might have been suspicious of him, but that was pretty much the whole point of him taking Nightcloud as a mate, to seem loyal in their eyes and disperse any suspicions of his coincidental momentary disappearance with a ThunderClan medicine cat. And then there's the key facts that: - Leafpool never told Crowfeather about the existence of his Half-Clan children.
- Leafpool punished herself before she was actually punished by anyone else. She willingly stepped down.
And honestly I'm not sure how people expect Crowfeather to have an equal punishment as Leafpool especially for children he didn't even know were his, and a relationship that ended moons ago. Crowfeather didn't break a medicine cat oath but he did break a warrior clan code, to which yes he should have been punished.
But punishing him years later, after the matter of the fact, and after even he just finds out the products of his actions, would be strange. He also most likely rejected his TC children and ex-mate, while clinging to Night and Breeze, to save his behind, but that didn't stop his clan from being distrusting of him and questioning his loyalties. If Crowfeather had been aware of his children's existence, like Raggedstar, then that would have been a whole different ball game.
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Post by Rainsplash on Sept 17, 2021 19:07:53 GMT -5
I don't think he was "ruined", since I can't see any notable personality traits before the Dovewing drama happened. I dislike him.
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