|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 9:41:34 GMT -5
I know this is a huge hot take (cold take?) Idk what these mean actually, I got conflicting answers, but the recent Bramble x Squirrel developments have led me to believe, that maybe it's best if leaders do not have mates. I mean, at this point, leaders seem even more important to the clans than medicine cats (even though medicine cats are way underrated) back to the leader though. The leader is in charge of making decisions based for their clan, but that's hard to do, when they have a mate, who wants them to put them first. Also, when Squirrelflight was temporary leader, we saw how detrimental this was, when she was putting Bramblestar above everyone else, and not because he's the leader, but because he's her mate. I know in some cases, it can work out, but in our most featured couple, it does not work out at all, and if the leader has such an important role, I don't understand why they should be able to have mates but medicine cats don't. What are your thoughts on leaders having mates?
|
|
Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
|
Post by sorethroat on Sept 8, 2021 9:46:52 GMT -5
Disagree. The whole concept of a role forbidding a cat from having personal romantic or parental relationships is something that I hope is abolished in the near future in-universe because it causes more trouble than it’s worth. Frankly, the idea that you have to put your Clan first before your personal family or love life is weird and it doesn’t solve any concerns of putting the Clan first. Choosing a deputy who doesn’t have a mate would also be potentially limiting your candidate pool.
|
|
Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
|
Post by sorethroat on Sept 8, 2021 9:52:51 GMT -5
Some afterthoughts since I’m to lazy to hit the edit button for some reason: we’ve seen several leaders put the Clan first before their mate, plenty of cats who acted while levelheaded. Squirrelflight being a total disaster regarding Bramblestar does not warrant cats being barred again in taking a mate when for generations leaders have had mates and functioned completely well. This is a case of “if the student acts up then the entire classroom is punished,” and most restrictions would cause more trouble than they’re worth, which is why the medicine cat rule should be abolished. Unless we’re ready for the obligatory 50 forbidden leader romance plotlines.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 9:53:06 GMT -5
Disagree. The whole concept of a role forbidding a cat from having personal romantic or parental relationships is something that I hope is abolished in the near future in-universe because it causes more trouble than it’s worth. Frankly, the idea that you have to put your Clan first before your personal family or love life is weird and it doesn’t solve any concerns of putting the Clan first. Choosing a deputy who doesn’t have a mate would also be potentially limiting your candidate pool. True, but I don't get why medicine cats can't have mates but leaders can, when leaders are apparently more important and in charge of more.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 9:53:56 GMT -5
Some afterthoughts since I’m to lazy to hit the edit button for some reason: we’ve seen several leaders put the Clan first before their mate, plenty of cats who acted while levelheaded. Squirrelflight being a total disaster regarding Bramblestar does not warrant cats being barred again in taking a mate when for generations leaders have had mates and functioned completely well. This is a case of “if the student acts up then the entire classroom is punished,” and most restrictions would cause more trouble than they’re worth, which is why the medicine cat rule should be abolished. Unless we’re ready for the obligatory 50 forbidden leader romance plotlines. Eh, we already have 50 generic forbidden romance plotlines, at least this could spice things up a bit haha
|
|
Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
|
Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 8, 2021 9:55:16 GMT -5
Leafstar, who was told by Echosong to not take a mate because it would interfere with her duties despite none of the male leaders ever having to face such a situation, would disagree with you on that.
Forbidden relationships, like they exist in the Warriors universe, be it from different Clans, Medicine cats romance and other such things (besides the ThistleSpotted abomination, of course) should no longer be such a big issue.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Sept 8, 2021 9:55:47 GMT -5
I mean, for me it depends on the relationship. BrambleSquirrel had conflict due to past instances of lacking of trust and alot of really deepset conflict that built up over time. They had their bad moments, but they also had their good moments. A massive issue was Squirrelflight consistently undermining her leader. Not her mate. Her leader. This is a genuine problem that has nothing to do with her being his mate, but everything to do with her, as his deputy, going behind his back and undermining him in front of other clans at gatherings.
Many leaders have had mates and those relationships have worked out just fine. Rowanstar and Tawnypelt, in my opinion, are an example of what I think the SquirrelBramble dynamic was supposed to be. There are many times that Tawnypelt takes things into her own paws and undermines her leader. Rowanstar, rightfully, scolds her as he would any clanmate that went behind his back and basically forced him to accept Thunderclan’s help, which absolutely was not a popular decision to the rest of Shadowclan. Hell, it might have been a reason he was not respected later on, so cats going behind their leader’s backs do genuinely have bad concequences.
This being said, the difference here is that I can tell that Tawnypelt and Rowanstar could separate their relationship as mates when it came to their ranks in the clan, Tawnypelt could accept a scolding as a clanmate and Warrior when she acted without permission, and Rowanstar could do his job as a leader and put the whole clan’s wellbeing and pride as the priority when he needed to in BRS. They could separate their duties as mates with their duties to their clan and rank. They could communicate much better, as expressed by Tawnypelt, who states in her novella that Rowanstar was always willing to listen to her as his deputy, not simply as his mate, but as his clanmate and deputy. Bramblestar and Squirrelflight both seemed to lack that ability to communicate and listen to eachother, because it seemed that one or both of them could not separate their relationship as mates with their rank in the clan. That is why one of these relationships showed a ton of dedication and respect for eachother by the end, while the other had an entire SE of issues.
Firestar and Sandstorm seemed to do just fine as well. Sandstorm knew when to provide wisdom as a mate, but also when to provide wisdom as one of the Warriors that Firestar was leading. His responsibility as leader is to put the clan as a whole first, but that does not mean that he isn’t allowed to have a healthy and happy relationship outside of a leader’s duties.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 9:57:24 GMT -5
You have all made some great points, and I see that I was wrong. I'm sorry, I'm just frustrated by all this Bramble x Squirrel crap, but I guess just because they can't hack it, doesn't mean that others can't.
|
|
|
Post by Moonblazer on Sept 8, 2021 10:00:49 GMT -5
You have all made some great points, and I see that I was wrong. I'm sorry, I'm just frustrated by all this Bramble x Squirrel crap, but I guess just because they can't hack it, doesn't mean that others can't. There are some instances where their issues aren’t the only ones though, so certain leaders probably shouldn't have mates. Leopardstar is an example, and why it was good that she never had one. Her personality and leadership methods would warrant for alot of headbutting and issues in my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 10:02:42 GMT -5
You have all made some great points, and I see that I was wrong. I'm sorry, I'm just frustrated by all this Bramble x Squirrel crap, but I guess just because they can't hack it, doesn't mean that others can't. There are some instances where their issues aren’t the only ones though, so certain leaders probably shouldn't have mates. Leopardstar is an example, and why it was good that she never had one. Her personality and leadership methods would warrant for alot of headbutting and issues in my opinion. That's true, I'm sure there have been others too besides those as well lol
|
|
|
Post by roseberry on Sept 8, 2021 10:06:36 GMT -5
You have all made some great points, and I see that I was wrong. I'm sorry, I'm just frustrated by all this Bramble x Squirrel crap, but I guess just because they can't hack it, doesn't mean that others can't. You don't need to say sorry. You said your opinion, and you have good points as well. Bramblestar and Squirrelflight was a good example, and I think you have a strong point. I agree that Bramblestar would be a good leader if he didn't have a mate, because he just seems like he doesn't have time for one, unlike how Firestar spent enough time with Sandstorm and with leading his Clan. I think that some cats shouldn't be able to, and idk I guess StarClan can decide.
|
|
Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
|
Post by sorethroat on Sept 8, 2021 10:07:05 GMT -5
Disagree. The whole concept of a role forbidding a cat from having personal romantic or parental relationships is something that I hope is abolished in the near future in-universe because it causes more trouble than it’s worth. Frankly, the idea that you have to put your Clan first before your personal family or love life is weird and it doesn’t solve any concerns of putting the Clan first. Choosing a deputy who doesn’t have a mate would also be potentially limiting your candidate pool. True, but I don't get why medicine cats can't have mates but leaders can, when leaders are apparently more important and in charge of more. That’s because Moth Flight wasn’t the best at parenting, fair because not everyone is and given the circumstances she was in a terrible situation with no safety net, and decided to block everyone over something she struggled to do. It wasn’t really a fair rule to make.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 10:10:16 GMT -5
roseberryThanks! Idk, letting someone like StarClan decide might not be the best idea lol, they gave 9 lives to cats like Brokenstar and Tigerclaw over cats like Nightstar. sorethroatAgreed! And that was also like 100 years ago before permeant queens were a thing, and clans were better structured.
|
|
Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
|
Post by sorethroat on Sept 8, 2021 10:10:21 GMT -5
Leafstar, who was told by Echosong to not take a mate because it would interfere with her duties despite none of the male leaders ever having to face such a situation, would disagree with you on that. Forbidden relationships, like they exist in the Warriors universe, be it from different Clans, Medicine cats romance and other such things (besides the ThistleSpotted abomination, of course) should no longer be such a big issue. That was always a needlessly sexist inclusion to the universe. Bluestar feared being passed over for this reason.
|
|
|
Post by roseberry on Sept 8, 2021 10:12:05 GMT -5
roseberry Thanks! Idk, letting someone like StarClan decide might not be the best idea lol, they gave 9 lives to cats like Brokenstar and Tigerclaw over cats like Nightstar. sorethroat Agreed! And that was also like 100 years ago before permeant queens were a thing, and clans were better structured. Np! Also 😳
|
|
Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
|
Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Sept 8, 2021 10:27:06 GMT -5
Leafstar, who was told by Echosong to not take a mate because it would interfere with her duties despite none of the male leaders ever having to face such a situation, would disagree with you on that. Forbidden relationships, like they exist in the Warriors universe, be it from different Clans, Medicine cats romance and other such things (besides the ThistleSpotted abomination, of course) should no longer be such a big issue. That was always a needlessly sexist inclusion to the universe. Bluestar feared being passed over for this reason. The Bluestar situation still infuriates me because after being so scared that Sunstar would make Thistleclaw deputy over her due to having kits and going trough the pain of bringing them to live with their father, which resulted in her needing to bury Mosskit along the way, was all for nothing. As Sunstar later tells her he would've never chosen Thistleclaw in the first place. Bluestar shouldn't even have been worried about this but the fact that she was has at least some unpleasant implications. If a she cat with kits wants to be deputy regardless and is also qualified for it (Sunstar had her as a favorite candidate) let her become deputy without having to endure what Bluestar did.
|
|
|
Post by Katanaheart on Sept 8, 2021 10:30:41 GMT -5
I think leaders should have mates. It should just be highly frowned upon to have that mate as deputy, unless the situation calls for it. (Rowan and Tawny example since she was the only loyal ShadowClan cat left.)
Leader mate combos can work, Gorse Fur and Windstar but not with the modern Clans at all considering how Squirrel and Bramble have behaved.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 10:32:09 GMT -5
I think leaders should have mates. It should just be highly frowned upon to have that mate as deputy, unless the situation calls for it. (Rowan and Tawny example since she was the only loyal ShadowClan cat left.) Leader mate combos can work, Gorse Fur and Windstar but not with the modern Clans at all considering how Squirrel and Bramble have behaved. Tigerheart was loyal too. I know he ended up leaving for Dovewing, but that was only because Puddleshine told him a dream he had, and Tigerheart misinterpreted it, and he thought that him leaving would be what was best to set ShadowClan down the right path.
|
|
|
Post by Katanaheart on Sept 8, 2021 10:35:18 GMT -5
I think leaders should have mates. It should just be highly frowned upon to have that mate as deputy, unless the situation calls for it. (Rowan and Tawny example since she was the only loyal ShadowClan cat left.) Leader mate combos can work, Gorse Fur and Windstar but not with the modern Clans at all considering how Squirrel and Bramble have behaved. Tigerheart was loyal too. I know he ended up leaving for Dovewing, but that was only because Puddleshine told him a dream he had, and Tigerheart misinterpreted it, and he thought that him leaving would be what was best to set ShadowClan down the right path. Tigerheart wasn’t really loyal when he left his Clan and essentially forced his father to choose his mother as deputy. Tawnypelt was the only loyal cat Rowanstar had left in the Clan. Tigerheart chose his mate over his Clan when they were in a very horrible situation, he can’t really be seen as a loyal ShadowClan cat to his father when he’s not even in his Clan at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 10:36:45 GMT -5
Tigerheart was loyal too. I know he ended up leaving for Dovewing, but that was only because Puddleshine told him a dream he had, and Tigerheart misinterpreted it, and he thought that him leaving would be what was best to set ShadowClan down the right path. Tigerheart wasn’t really loyal when he left his Clan and essentially forced his father to choose his mother as deputy. Tawnypelt was the only loyal cat Rowanstar had left in the Clan. Tigerheart chose his mate over his Clan when they were in a very horrible situation, he can’t really be seen as a loyal ShadowClan cat to his father when he’s not even in his Clan at the moment. Did you read Tigerheart's Shadow?
|
|
|
Post by Chicken on Sept 8, 2021 10:49:24 GMT -5
Did you read Tigerheart's Shadow? Considering I have made a past thread back when I read TS, yes. Yeah... Back in 2018 before I even joined this site, so idk the reason for the snarkiness.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 8, 2021 11:12:59 GMT -5
No, they absolutely should. Whenever a leader chooses a deputy, it's generally meant to be unexpected, so what if a certain cat is actually a good fit for deputy, but they're passed over in favor of a poor choice just because they happen to have a family of their own? At least with medicine cats, the majority of them are chosen at a young enough age.
Furthermore, Bramblestar and Squirrelflight's relationship is pretty much an isolated incident on both leaders having mates in general and—at least for now—leaders choosing their mates to become their deputies, since Windstar and Gorse Fur and Rowanstar and Tawnypelt were both fine. And clearly the problem is less with the position and more to do with Bramblestar and Squirrelflight themselves, as they're both too stubborn to listen to the other to the point of being unreasonable. The other problem is that not once is their relationship actually called into question by the narrative since they haven't broken up again, so as far as the characters themselves are concerned, there's not even any issue.
|
|
|
Post by *Ottersplash* on Sept 8, 2021 11:50:49 GMT -5
I think the medicine cat code is stupid, so I definitely think leaders should also be able to take mates. While there will always be some cats who can't handle it, I'd say a majority can.
I think one of the best recent examples is Tawnypelt and Rowanstar. I actually think him having a mate and family helped him through the rough times, as they acted as pillars of support.
Likewise, Sandstorm and Firestar. Leafstar did completely fine. Cloudstar did fine. I'm sure there's more, but I just woke up.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 8, 2021 12:45:40 GMT -5
Hmm, I’ll have to disagree. The only couple I can think of that it didn’t work for is Bramble x Squirrel, and I think that had a lot more to do with all the other issues in their relationship than Bramblestar being leader. (i guess you could include ragged x yellow too, but again, I don’t think him becoming leader later caused the issues).
There are several pairings this worked just fine for. Wind x Gorse, Leaf x Billy, Fire x Sand, Rowan x Tawny. And to be fair, we haven’t witnessed too many leader pairings first hand anyways.
|
|
|
Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 8, 2021 12:51:34 GMT -5
Leafstar, who was told by Echosong to not take a mate because it would interfere with her duties despite none of the male leaders ever having to face such a situation, would disagree with you on that. Forbidden relationships, like they exist in the Warriors universe, be it from different Clans, Medicine cats romance and other such things (besides the ThistleSpotted abomination, of course) should no longer be such a big issue. That was always a needlessly sexist inclusion to the universe. Bluestar feared being passed over for this reason. It wasn’t a judgement from the narration. It was Bluestar who decided it was an issue. She was very ambitious and independent, and determined to fix whatever problem she identified. Her belief that she couldn’t become deputy if she had kits was a reflection on her characterization, rather than a moral point illustrated by the book. In fact, SkyClan’s destiny came out just a year after BP, in which Leafstar had the same dilemma but came to the opposite conclusion as Bluestar. Because she is characterized differently.
|
|
Lesbian
“Dude you have over 50k posts? Ngl that’s kind of cringe.”
sorethroat
Part-time lurker.
|
Post by sorethroat on Sept 8, 2021 13:54:20 GMT -5
That was always a needlessly sexist inclusion to the universe. Bluestar feared being passed over for this reason. It wasn’t a judgement from the narration. It was Bluestar who decided it was an issue. She was very ambitious and independent, and determined to fix whatever problem she identified. Her belief that she couldn’t become deputy if she had kits was a reflection on her characterization, rather than a moral point illustrated by the book. In fact, SkyClan’s destiny came out just a year after BP, in which Leafstar had the same dilemma but came to the opposite conclusion as Bluestar. Because she is characterized differently. I said in-universe, not the narrative itself.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 8, 2021 14:16:31 GMT -5
maybe just a rule saying the leader's mate can't be deputy. i know that sounds unfair, but squirrelxbramble have clearly proven why this is such a bad idea.
|
|
#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
|
Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Sept 8, 2021 14:24:03 GMT -5
maybe just a rule saying the leader's mate can't be deputy. i know that sounds unfair, but squirrelxbramble have clearly proven why this is such a bad idea. I'd agree if we didn't already have WindxGorse and RowanxTawny. It rarely happens, but it seems like BramblexSquirrel is the exception, not the rule.
|
|
|
Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Sept 8, 2021 14:25:14 GMT -5
maybe just a rule saying the leader's mate can't be deputy. i know that sounds unfair, but squirrelxbramble have clearly proven why this is such a bad idea. I'd agree if we didn't already have WindxGorse and RowanxTawny. It rarely happens, but it seems like BramblexSquirrel is the exception, not the rule. i didn't like rowan x tawny either, so in my mind, i see wind and gorse as the only canon one that worked, the other 2 we know didn't (imo)
|
|
|