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Post by starlightstoryteller on Aug 28, 2021 18:58:41 GMT -5
I'm going to preface this thread by saying Mapleshade's a bad person. She's a kitty serial killer, she shouldn't have gone to StarClan like I hear some people say. This thread is about how Mapleshade's victims weren't absolutely innocent like I hear certain content creators claim, but I do not think that they deserved death.
Mapleshade has a weird history in this fandom. For awhile a certain content creator made a ton of sympathetic content about her, spreading headcanons like "oakstar regularly raided twolegplace" through the fandom as fact, etc etc. After they left, there was a sort of over-correction in the fandom, and people expressed sentiments that Mapleshade deserved every bad thing that happened to her, it's only her fault her kittens died, and all of her victims did nothing wrong. I've even heard things like "Mapleshade was an abusive mom" and "if she really loved her kittens she never would've had them" which is news to me because I must've missed kitty contraceptives being invented.
Lots of things are forgotten about MV, and while some of these have been remembered, others have been remembered incorrectly (Mapleshade trying to kill Reedshine, for one- she did try to kill Reedshine, but Appledusk was her original target. Trying to kill Reedshine was a heat of the moment decision. That doesn't make it any less horrible, obviously, but it's irritating to see it portrayed as either her killing appledusk first or attacking reedshine first; the only MAP, PMV or AMV I've seen that portrayed it correctly is A Place With No Name).
For instance, pre kit-death Mapleshade was oddly naive and kind of stupid, and this is underutilized by the fandom imo. It's noth an interesting side of her character and absolutely hilarious. She was planning to tell the clan of Appledusk being the father eventually, and her dream was that her kits would be able to end the pointless fighting between RiverClan and ThunderClan.
Anyways, onto Ravenwing!
Ravenwing's an assclown. He specifically said he knew her kits would suffer when he confronted Maple, but he told the clan anyway. Even if he felt he had to tell, he also didn't even try to stop their exile. I can sorta understand why they exiled Mapleshade, but Ravenwing just stood by and watched as ThunderClan snapped the protecting kittens code over its collective knee. He let one clanmate's codebreaking influence the rest of the clan towards breaking a far more important code, and didn't even try to stop it. Medicine cat's words are respected (at least they were back then); I sincerely doubt if Ravenwing told Oakstar to chill out the kits would've been exiled. He didn't even try to aid the innocent kittens as they were being sent away, in the middle of the night, into a storm, by giving them travelling herbs or anything. As a medicine cat, it's his duty to take care of his clanmates and keep them safe and healthy. Also, he didn't even try to figure out an alternate meaning to the three reeds omen; he just assumed it was StarClan's will to harm kits when that's explicitly against the code. That's not murder-worthy, but it's pretty egregrious.
Now, onto Frecklewish.
Frecklewish is certainly an interesting character. One thing almost nobody points out is that Frecklewish and Mapleshade are very similar cats. Both of them lost family member(s) and took it hard, both of them took it out on people who didn't really deserve it (Mapleshade had every right to be mad at Apple, Freckle and Raven but as I stated before, they didn't deserve death. Meanwhile Mapleshade's kits did literally nothing to Freckle, but she called them "half-clan creatures" and encouraged their exile anyways). In both cases their inability to move on from their grief is what ends up killing them.
But anyways, back to my main point. Frecklewish was right to be mad at Mapleshade, but I also do not blame Mapleshade for lying by omission about Birchface. Some people act like this lie makes her the devil, but in my opinion killing people is worse than lying to protect your children from your own mistakes. I've seen people claim "oh, she could've used the queen's silence" but while technically she could've, in every instance of the queen's silence being used rumors spread about the father, some of which are more harmful than others. For instance, Rosetail assumes Bluefur's kits are Thrushpelt's when she showed zero signs of being into him. In addition, Featherstorm was mates with a kittypet. Her clanmates assumed(correctly this time) and used a rumor to bully and harass her kittens pretty much their entire childhood. Some cat even didn't want them apprenticed based on rumors that they were half-kittypet. Growing up like this is probably why Raggedstar turned out Like That, and I can't really blame Maple for wanting to avoid that sort of fate for her kits. Also, I'd like to reiterate she was planning on telling the clan eventually.
Anyways Frecklewish reacts horribly to the secret being revealed, ****ing claws up her eyelid and has to be dragged off her, and then watches as the kittens drown. I'm not really sure how much I blame her for the last bit because I don't know how well she can swim, but I absolutely cannot blame mapleshade for assuming this was done with malicious intent considering the last thing she did to the kits was call them half-clan creatures to their faces and then attack their mother.
One last thing I'd like to point out before moving onto Appledusk is that before Mapleshade unleased the snakes, Frecklewish screeched that she wished she was dead and tries to attack her, which reads like she was trying to murder her lol. Really Freckle and Maple are just the same cat but one's xenophobic and the other killed three people instead of attempting to murder one.
I haven't seen too many people defending Appledusk, thankfully. The only good thing that rat-bastard ever did was take a blow for reedshine. I have seen some people claim that he abandoned her because he was mad the kits drowned, but this man has met them once, for 15 minutes, and is yelling at the woman who gave birth to them. Also, he never apologizes for this.
Finally, I'd like to end this ramble by addressing how some people say "she could've gone somewhere else!" But for one, the bridge was on WindClan territory, for two nesting outside of camps is dangerous for 3 young kits (snowkit died because of the lack of protection of a camp from the fire) at night-time during a storm, and twolegplace had dogs, thunderpaths, and potentially hostile kittypets. Generally not a good time for 3 exhausted children and their mother. Was deciding to cross the river with them a smart decision? Nah. But as aforementioned Mapleshade's kind of a dumbass, and if you look me in the eyes and tell me you have never in your life made a dumb decision while under a time limit, external threats, and great emotional duress I will call you a liar.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Aug 28, 2021 20:41:59 GMT -5
This whole thing is completely fair. I do not disagree with anything you wrote
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Post by Rainsplash on Aug 28, 2021 20:45:49 GMT -5
I'm irritated when the fandom says Mapleshade is innocent and Appledusk deserved to die and he should've gone to the Dark Forest!!!! and Ravenwing should've lied for Mapleshade and totally deserved what he got!!! Frecklewish is evil for not throwing herself into the river to help Mapleshade!!!! Reedshine is also evil for being snarky at poor Mapleshade!!!!
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Post by Cheetahstar on Aug 28, 2021 21:00:30 GMT -5
its funny
i get rather irritated myself when people ignore how ravenwing, frecklewish, and appledusk were all wrong in their own ways too
no one in the book except like
myler and the kits
are good cats
still a mapleshade fan thou
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Post by Chicken on Aug 28, 2021 21:05:31 GMT -5
I feel like people forget the other factors that are to be considered when it comes to Mapleshade's victims, especially Ravenwing. Not everything is purely black and white.
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Post by Mothdapple on Aug 28, 2021 21:26:29 GMT -5
I'm irritated when the fandom says Mapleshade is innocent and Appledusk deserved to die and he should've gone to the Dark Forest!!!! and Ravenwing should've lied for Mapleshade and totally deserved what he got!!! Frecklewish is evil for not throwing herself into the river to help Mapleshade!!!! Reedshine is also evil for being snarky at poor Mapleshade!!!! People like that are hilarious to argue with though. I got into an argument that’s lasted like a week now on TikTok and the person said…. 1. Appledusk/Darkstar insisted that Mapleshade’s kits will be buried in the mud without a proper burial 2. Frecklewish should’ve let herself drown and be another cat for the RiverClan patrol to try to save by jumping into the river to save Mapleshade and her kits. EVEN after Flowerpaw drowned trying to save Birchface earlier in the book. 3. Appledusk purposely delayed the attempt to save Mapleshade’s kits when he LITERALLY DID NOT KNOW they were in the river until Mapleshade told him. They said he could’ve tried harder when?? He tried his best?? When I told them to check the page in the book where this happens they said “they didn’t have time to go check” Like I absolutely cannot take them seriously. Also I saw someone earlier today say they hated Perchpaw SIMPLY because he killed Mapleshade, the unknown cat who killed his mentor and tried killing a pregnant queen. NOTHING ELSE. It’s laughable honestly.
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Aug 28, 2021 21:49:52 GMT -5
All excellent points, no argument here. Other than the xenophobia, this is why I have no sympathy for her. She was a complete dumbass who was incredibly weak-willed, leading to her murdering spree following the death of her children. But perhaps the kits dying was an act of mercy from the world on their behalf. I highly doubt they would have been able to live actual meaningful lives, if they would have lived much longer at all.
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Post by Rainsplash on Aug 28, 2021 21:59:22 GMT -5
I'm irritated when the fandom says Mapleshade is innocent and Appledusk deserved to die and he should've gone to the Dark Forest!!!! and Ravenwing should've lied for Mapleshade and totally deserved what he got!!! Frecklewish is evil for not throwing herself into the river to help Mapleshade!!!! Reedshine is also evil for being snarky at poor Mapleshade!!!! People like that are hilarious to argue with though. I got into an argument that’s lasted like a week now on TikTok and the person said…. 1. Appledusk/Darkstar insisted that Mapleshade’s kits will be buried in the mud without a proper burial 2. Frecklewish should’ve let herself drown and be another cat for the RiverClan patrol to try to save by jumping into the river to save Mapleshade and her kits. EVEN after Flowerpaw drowned trying to save Birchface earlier in the book. 3. Appledusk purposely delayed the attempt to save Mapleshade’s kits when he LITERALLY DID NOT KNOW they were in the river until Mapleshade told him. They said he could’ve tried harder when?? He tried his best?? When I told them to check the page in the book where this happens they said “they didn’t have time to go check” Like I absolutely cannot take them seriously. Also I saw someone earlier today say they hated Perchpaw SIMPLY because he killed Mapleshade, the unknown cat who killed his mentor and tried killing a pregnant queen. NOTHING ELSE. It’s laughable honestly. That's just plain weird.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Aug 28, 2021 22:31:30 GMT -5
I'm irritated when the fandom says Mapleshade is innocent and Appledusk deserved to die and he should've gone to the Dark Forest!!!! and Ravenwing should've lied for Mapleshade and totally deserved what he got!!! Frecklewish is evil for not throwing herself into the river to help Mapleshade!!!! Reedshine is also evil for being snarky at poor Mapleshade!!!! That is completely fair but I also stated multiple times throughout this ramble that I do not think any of them deserved to die.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 29, 2021 5:08:35 GMT -5
I'm irritated when the fandom says Mapleshade is innocent and Appledusk deserved to die and he should've gone to the Dark Forest!!!! and Ravenwing should've lied for Mapleshade and totally deserved what he got!!! Frecklewish is evil for not throwing herself into the river to help Mapleshade!!!! Reedshine is also evil for being snarky at poor Mapleshade!!!! At the end of the day, two wrongs don't make a right, and Mapleshade was also still a victim in this as well. It doesn't mean that people are trying to say that Mapleshade was justified in killing those said cats, but at the same time their treatment of her was down right cruel. And her behavior gets brushed under the rug just because Mapleshade kills them, or they end up in bad positions by the end of the novella. Appledusk didn't deserve the Dark Forest, but at the end of the day he was till a scumbag that cheated on both Mapleshade and Reedshine, and didn't even bother to learn his own kits names. While also throwing Mapleshade under the bus to save his own skin, he wasn't really punished for anything. He got to stay in RiverClan, got to keep one of his mates, and had more kits on the way, so he essentially lost nothing compared to Mapleshade. Ravenwing was a medicine cat, who knew that his actions would cause the kits to suffer, but still decided to go to Oakstar with his assumptions. Even if he didn't want to lie, and despite the prophecy, he still could have spoken out against the cruelty of his clanmates for the sake of those kits. If he actually cared about them, he would have spoken to Oakstar, and have Mapleshade and her kits properly escorted to RiverClan, not driven out and treated like garbage. When Dovewing betrayed TC and openly said she was going to stay with ShC, Bramblestar still had enough sense to send an escort with a mother and her children. Frecklewish is honestly caused a lot of things on herself. She used Mapleshade as much as Maple did her, wanting to pressure Maple into the idea of her kits being her brothers. And then supporting her father's idea of having the kits be used as tools for revenge against Appledusk. Calling the kits half-clan creatures after attacking their mother's face in front of them, and then pushing for their exile. She arguably hated the kits as much as she did Mapleshade just because of who their father was. And there is no excuse for her actions at the River. She stalked after Mapleshade out of the camp and into the storm, to make sure she left. She also knew that a RiverClan patrol was nearby, but instead of calling out for help, or doing anything at all, she walked away from the situation. She saw a mother and kits drowning and left them to their fate. When the patrol did rescue Mapleshade, they had no idea the kits were in the river too until Mapleshade forced it out and begged them to save them. But by the time they do rescue the kits its too late. If they had known from the start, and even acted sooner, those kits could have lived. If Frecklewish actually had any sympathy for those innocent kits, despite her hatred for Mapleshade, she would have called to the patrol and gotten them to help. But she didn't. In the end, her attacking Mapleshade caused her own demise. There were always other options for those cats, the luxury Mapleshade never had the moment Appledusk became enemy #1. They treated her with bias, and hatred, and no regard to those kits that deserved none of that treatment. It doesn't justify Mapleshade's actions when she killed them out of revenge, but it also doesn't mean they're completely innocent in how they treated her like many claim. People constantly try to defend the actions of Raven, Oak, Apple, and Freckle, or minimize what they did to Mapleshade just because she's Mapleshade. Some even going as far to blame Mapleshade for everything, which is nonsensical on it's on. No one was right, and the only innocent cats were Myler and the kits.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Aug 29, 2021 5:32:04 GMT -5
I have multiple issues with this post, especially since Mapleshade's victims had reasons too for acting the way they did. I'm going to adress them below: "Suffer" has many meanings. It could mean that Mapleshade could be exiled and they would miss their mother, it could mean that they would be exiled too, or maybe they would stay in the Clan and be judged because of their father. We just can't assume he said it because of Oakstar's exile because he had no foresight to know if he was going to exile them too. Even then, he even recived an omen that said they were a danger to ThunderClan. Why would he try to keep in, when StarClan told him they were danger? Even then, why would he try to stop their exile? Mapleshade walked to the river the other day and nothing happened to her, even if it was in a flooded river. And also, the strong rain had only started when she was already exiled. Ravenwing had no way to know how strong the storm could get. And since she would probably be heading to RiverClan, the kits would be better off there anyway. Would it be better that they don't get exiled, and stay in a Clan that judged them, and wants them dead? No. Ravenwing had seen how they'd probably be better off in their true father's Clan. From what he heard from Rabbitfur, they could barely function on land, not even able to pounce but being very good swimmers, even whitout training. The kits wouldn't be in danger from any revengeful Clanmates like Frecklewish, due to their father being reasonable for two Thunderclan cats' deaths. Also, if the kits were a "danger" to ThunderClan, like the omen pointed out, then they'd be far less dangerous if they were in a different Clan. Even better, In Riverclan, the family wouldn't be forced to live separately and they know their true father is alive and with them, also not being judged by who their father is, or expected to be brilliant hunters like Birchface. I also gave you reasons that gave Ravenwing reasons to suspect it was them. He didin't just "assume." Three reeds washing into the RiverClan camp, right? And suddenly, he sees three kits that swim brilliantly and who look like a RiverClan cat, Appledusk. Even worse, their mother talked lovingly with that same cat earlier that day. It was obvious the omen was poining towards them. It's clear Frecklewish felt regret and didin't want to inmediately kill her. The first thing she does when she sees her is warn her to leave or she would call a patrol, and when Mapleshade becomes more of a threat, she even says this: Only when Mapleshade calls her a fox-hearted coward and tries to accuse her of killing her kits, she does say that. I honestly can't blame her entirely for saying she wishes she was dead, since Mapleshade only insults her and dosen't seem to regret lying to her. Note how she dosen't say anything until she accuses her 3 times of killing her kits. Just because he didin't spend much time with them, dosen't mean he didin't love them. Take a look at the highlighted parts of these quotes: (Some even prove how much Appledusk loved Mapleshade) " They (the kits) are wonderful, strong and brave, and as confident as any RiverClan cat in the water. I am so proud of you."He says this while Mapleshade plays with the kits in the river. ""Mapleshade! Mapleshade! Grab hold of the branch!" There was a frantic shout from the shore. Mapleshade saw Appledusk wading into the river, his fur fluffed up in alarm. He gestured with his tail to the overhanging tree. "Hold on and I'll drag you out!" Mapleshade was only dimly aware of hooking her claws into the branch beside her. She felt herself being dragged through the water, and then strong jaws were in her pelt, hauling her onto the stones. Appledusk loomed over her. "What in the name of StarClan are you doing? Where are the kits?" - Appledusk saving Mapleshade, Chapter 4. Honestly, with the previous quotes, we can see that he actually cared for the kits, so we can only assume he disowned her for literally exposing their secret, then killing his kits, and coming into his Clan putting him in dnager of being exiled. Why wouldn't he be mad? What does he need to apagolize for? He needs to get out of the forbbiden relationship to stay in RiverClan. He's choosing the warrior code over her. That's a loyal warrior. Wouldn't it have been more selfish to leave a pregnant Reedshine, his apprentice, and his Clanmates during leaf-bare for the cat who killed his kits and now got both of them exiled? He apagolizes for his forbbiden relationship to Darkstar. And note, he never says the kits were mistakes, but rather his forbbiden relationship with Mapleshade. The highlighted parts show him taking ALL of the responsability, never blaming Mapleshade or the kits: " I'm so sorry, Reedshine. Please forgive me." [...] " I will regret it for the rest of my life, and I can only beg for your forgiveness." [...] " I knew I had made a mistake so I said nothing to my Clanmates." [...] " I should never have betrayed my Clan by meeting with Mapleshade." Even then, Mapleshade wasn't too naive or innocent, either. Earlier in the book, before Reedshine is even revealed to be Appledusk's mate, she's shown walking with him to the crowd of RiverClan, laying her tail on his back. This usually means to beckon a cat closer, and since he was walking to a crowd of cats, that didin't have to mean anything romantic. It could have just meant: "Sit beside me." Yet, before it's revealed, she grossly thinks at her to stay away from him and thinks her kits are going to make sure that Appledusk is hers. That's manipulative and possesive. Her kits shouldn't be used as tools to make sure he stays hers. Even worse, she wrongly assumed romance when Reedshine, at the time, was a normal Clanmate. This implies she would've done this to all she-cats that interacted with him.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 29, 2021 6:00:44 GMT -5
I have multiple issues with this post, especially since Mapleshade's victims had reasons too for acting the way they did. I'm going to adress them below: "Suffer" has many meanings. It could mean that Mapleshade could be exiled and they would miss their mother, it could mean that they would be exiled too, or maybe they would stay in the Clan and be judged because of their father. We just can't assume he said it because of Oakstar's exile because he had no foresight to know if he was going to exile them too. Even then, he even recived an omen that said they were a danger to ThunderClan. Why would he try to keep in, when StarClan told him they were danger? Even then, why would he try to stop their exile? Mapleshade walked to the river the other day and nothing happened to her, even if it was in a flooded river. And also, the strong rain had only started when she was already exiled. Ravenwing had no way to know how strong the storm could get. And since she would probably be heading to RiverClan, the kits would be better off there anyway. Would it be better that they don't get exiled, and stay in a Clan that judged them, and wants them dead? No. Ravenwing had seen how they'd probably be better off in their true father's Clan. From what he heard from Rabbitfur, they could barely function on land, not even able to pounce but being very good swimmers, even whitout training. The kits wouldn't be in danger from any revengeful Clanmates like Frecklewish, due to their father being reasonable for two Thunderclan cats' deaths. Also, if the kits were a "danger" to ThunderClan, like the omen pointed out, then they'd be far less dangerous if they were in a different Clan. Even better, In Riverclan, the family wouldn't be forced to live separately and they know their true father is alive and with them, also not being judged by who their father is, or expected to be brilliant hunters like Birchface. I also gave you reasons that gave Ravenwing reasons to suspect it was them. He didin't just "assume." Three reeds washing into the RiverClan camp, right? And suddenly, he sees three kits that swim brilliantly and who look like a RiverClan cat, Appledusk. Even worse, their mother talked lovingly with that same cat earlier that day. It was obvious the omen was poining towards them. It's clear Frecklewish felt regret and didin't want to inmediately kill her. The first thing she does when she sees her is warn her to leave or she would call a patrol, and when Mapleshade becomes more of a threat, she even says this: Only when Mapleshade calls her a fox-hearted coward and tries to accuse her of killing her kits, she does say that. I honestly can't blame her entirely for saying she wishes she was dead, since Mapleshade only insults her and dosen't seem to regret lying to her. Note how she dosen't say anything until she accuses her 3 times of killing her kits. Just because he didin't spend much time with them, dosen't mean he didin't love them. Take a look at the highlighted parts of these quotes: (Some even prove how much Appledusk loved Mapleshade) " They (the kits) are wonderful, strong and brave, and as confident as any RiverClan cat in the water. I am so proud of you."He says this while Mapleshade plays with the kits in the river. ""Mapleshade! Mapleshade! Grab hold of the branch!" There was a frantic shout from the shore. Mapleshade saw Appledusk wading into the river, his fur fluffed up in alarm. He gestured with his tail to the overhanging tree. "Hold on and I'll drag you out!" Mapleshade was only dimly aware of hooking her claws into the branch beside her. She felt herself being dragged through the water, and then strong jaws were in her pelt, hauling her onto the stones. Appledusk loomed over her. "What in the name of StarClan are you doing? Where are the kits?" - Appledusk saving Mapleshade, Chapter 4. Honestly, with the previous quotes, we can see that he actually cared for the kits, so we can only assume he disowned her for literally exposing their secret, then killing his kits, and coming into his Clan putting him in dnager of being exiled. Why wouldn't he be mad? What does he need to apagolize for? He needs to get out of the forbbiden relationship to stay in RiverClan. He's choosing the warrior code over her. That's a loyal warrior. Wouldn't it have been more selfish to leave a pregnant Reedshine, his apprentice, and his Clanmates during leaf-bare for the cat who killed his kits and now got both of them exiled? He apagolizes for his forbbiden relationship to Darkstar. And note, he never says the kits were mistakes, but rather his forbbiden relationship with Mapleshade. The highlighted parts show him taking ALL of the responsability, never blaming Mapleshade or the kits: " I'm so sorry, Reedshine. Please forgive me." [...] " I will regret it for the rest of my life, and I can only beg for your forgiveness." [...] " I knew I had made a mistake so I said nothing to my Clanmates." [...] " I should never have betrayed my Clan by meeting with Mapleshade." Regardless of what "suffering" he specifically meant, it still negative, they were going to go through the ringer just for being the kits of Appledusk, period. It doesn't matter what evidence, or reasoning Ravenwing had, he still stood by and let a Queen and her ktis be persecuted in front of the clan. Not even stepping in when Frecklewish viciously attacked Mapleshade's face and almost blinded her. If he actually cared about the well being of those kits, he would have suggested an alternative, sending them to RiverClan with an escort. That way the kits would have been safe, and gone, even if he possibly read the "omen" wrong. I find it hard to believe that Frecklewish cared about those kits considering she saw them drowning and walked away from the situation at the river like it was nothing. Her showing guilt only because they died doesn't change that she could have helped them, but didn't, it's just survivors guilt on her part. And Mapleshade calling her out for being a coward was just the truth she didn't want to hear. Sure Mapleshade lied about her brother being the father, but compared to Frecklewish, who left them to drown, innocent kits, I think it's obvious which is worse. It can be argued that Appledusk supposedly loved the kits, but imo he had a funny way of showing it since he didn't even bother to remember their names. Names in the clans is something important, sacred even, and they obviously have a lot of meaning behind it. Yet here his kits are, dead, and he doesn't bother to learn who they are, and remember them by that so his clan can honor them during their vigil. If he did that just because Mapleshade named then, then imo that would be quite petty of him, and cruel in the face of the kits. Also, no one is saying Appledusk should have abandoned Reedshine for Mapleshade, but he still threw Mapleshade under the bus to save his own reputation. He lied to her face about loving her, then treated her like trash despite the pain she went through to give birth to his kits. And even when Mapleshade just wanted to stay the night, to grieve her children and wait out the storm, he denied her that, not even vouching for her in the least. Just because he still had his side woman, and other back up children on the way. It's fine if he wanted nothing to do with Mapleshade after what happened, but Mapleshade should have been allowed to grieve her own children properly and not be thrown into the storm and left to rot. None of their actions justify the lack of leniency that Mapleshade should have been given.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Aug 29, 2021 7:34:16 GMT -5
I have multiple issues with this post, especially since Mapleshade's victims had reasons too for acting the way they did. I'm going to adress them below: "Suffer" has many meanings. It could mean that Mapleshade could be exiled and they would miss their mother, it could mean that they would be exiled too, or maybe they would stay in the Clan and be judged because of their father. We just can't assume he said it because of Oakstar's exile because he had no foresight to know if he was going to exile them too. Even then, he even recived an omen that said they were a danger to ThunderClan. Why would he try to keep in, when StarClan told him they were danger? Even then, why would he try to stop their exile? Mapleshade walked to the river the other day and nothing happened to her, even if it was in a flooded river. And also, the strong rain had only started when she was already exiled. Ravenwing had no way to know how strong the storm could get. And since she would probably be heading to RiverClan, the kits would be better off there anyway. Would it be better that they don't get exiled, and stay in a Clan that judged them, and wants them dead? No. Ravenwing had seen how they'd probably be better off in their true father's Clan. From what he heard from Rabbitfur, they could barely function on land, not even able to pounce but being very good swimmers, even whitout training. The kits wouldn't be in danger from any revengeful Clanmates like Frecklewish, due to their father being reasonable for two Thunderclan cats' deaths. Also, if the kits were a "danger" to ThunderClan, like the omen pointed out, then they'd be far less dangerous if they were in a different Clan. Even better, In Riverclan, the family wouldn't be forced to live separately and they know their true father is alive and with them, also not being judged by who their father is, or expected to be brilliant hunters like Birchface. I also gave you reasons that gave Ravenwing reasons to suspect it was them. He didin't just "assume." Three reeds washing into the RiverClan camp, right? And suddenly, he sees three kits that swim brilliantly and who look like a RiverClan cat, Appledusk. Even worse, their mother talked lovingly with that same cat earlier that day. It was obvious the omen was poining towards them. It's clear Frecklewish felt regret and didin't want to inmediately kill her. The first thing she does when she sees her is warn her to leave or she would call a patrol, and when Mapleshade becomes more of a threat, she even says this: Only when Mapleshade calls her a fox-hearted coward and tries to accuse her of killing her kits, she does say that. I honestly can't blame her entirely for saying she wishes she was dead, since Mapleshade only insults her and dosen't seem to regret lying to her. Note how she dosen't say anything until she accuses her 3 times of killing her kits. Just because he didin't spend much time with them, dosen't mean he didin't love them. Take a look at the highlighted parts of these quotes: (Some even prove how much Appledusk loved Mapleshade) " They (the kits) are wonderful, strong and brave, and as confident as any RiverClan cat in the water. I am so proud of you."He says this while Mapleshade plays with the kits in the river. ""Mapleshade! Mapleshade! Grab hold of the branch!" There was a frantic shout from the shore. Mapleshade saw Appledusk wading into the river, his fur fluffed up in alarm. He gestured with his tail to the overhanging tree. "Hold on and I'll drag you out!" Mapleshade was only dimly aware of hooking her claws into the branch beside her. She felt herself being dragged through the water, and then strong jaws were in her pelt, hauling her onto the stones. Appledusk loomed over her. "What in the name of StarClan are you doing? Where are the kits?" - Appledusk saving Mapleshade, Chapter 4. Honestly, with the previous quotes, we can see that he actually cared for the kits, so we can only assume he disowned her for literally exposing their secret, then killing his kits, and coming into his Clan putting him in dnager of being exiled. Why wouldn't he be mad? What does he need to apagolize for? He needs to get out of the forbbiden relationship to stay in RiverClan. He's choosing the warrior code over her. That's a loyal warrior. Wouldn't it have been more selfish to leave a pregnant Reedshine, his apprentice, and his Clanmates during leaf-bare for the cat who killed his kits and now got both of them exiled? He apagolizes for his forbbiden relationship to Darkstar. And note, he never says the kits were mistakes, but rather his forbbiden relationship with Mapleshade. The highlighted parts show him taking ALL of the responsability, never blaming Mapleshade or the kits: " I'm so sorry, Reedshine. Please forgive me." [...] " I will regret it for the rest of my life, and I can only beg for your forgiveness." [...] " I knew I had made a mistake so I said nothing to my Clanmates." [...] " I should never have betrayed my Clan by meeting with Mapleshade." Even then, Mapleshade wasn't too naive or innocent, either. Earlier in the book, before Reedshine is even revealed to be Appledusk's mate, she's shown walking with him to the crowd of RiverClan, laying her tail on his back. This usually means to beckon a cat closer, and since he was walking to a crowd of cats, that didin't have to mean anything romantic. It could have just meant: "Sit beside me." Yet, before it's revealed, she grossly thinks at her to stay away from him and thinks her kits are going to make sure that Appledusk is hers. That's manipulative and possesive. Her kits shouldn't be used as tools to make sure he stays hers. Even worse, she wrongly assumed romance when Reedshine, at the time, was a normal Clanmate. This implies she would've done this to all she-cats that interacted with him. Ok so it's not letting me type out of this bracket for some reason. Anyways: Ravenwing- even if he didn't know Maple would take her kits to the river or that they'd drown or whatever, the reason not to exile kits is because they Literally Did Nothing?? If Maple's kits had survived that still would've been morally wrong of ThunderClan because the only thing her kits did was be born, jeez. Also re: omens, I wasn't saying the omens didn't mean the kits. I was saying the meaning of the omen wasn't "exile them". And sure, staying in a potentially hostile clan would've sucked, but yknow what sucks more? Dying. As I pointed out, it was the middle of the night, during a storm, without the protection of a camp. If Ravenwing's real intention was them getting safely to RiverClan (which we have zero indication of, by the way) he would've made someone send escorts or something to protect them. Frecklewish- As I stated before, Mapleshade had every reason to assume Frecklewish had malicious intent towards her kittens. Why the hell would she take what Freckle said at face value? Besides, as I have recently learned, Frecklewish didn't even need to get in the water herself. She just needed to alert the nearby patrol that there were kittens in the water, and she would've done her best. But she didn't even try that. This exact situation (3 kits drowning while someone watches) is what caused the first No Neglecting Kits in Pain code. Also, I'd say that telling someone to leave or they'd call a patrol is a hostile action, anyways. Why would mapleshade apologize about her brother when Frecklewish's actions partly lead to 3 of her family members dying and she seemed to be avoiding all responsibility. Appledusk- Hooo boy. Ok so firstly please refer to what I said above about making dumb decisions under duress. Appledusk, king of making dumb decisions, should've tried to be at least a bit understanding, at least. He especially shouldn't have thrown her under the bus for everything and said "actually she was only ever just my side hoe <3" to the mother of his children right after they died. Even just asking to let this exhausted grieving woman to stay the night, the bare minimum he could've done, he refuses to this. Because of this Mapleshade gets sick, and she could've died if Nettlepaw hadn't helped her, another oft-forgotten part of MV. Secondly please remember Appledusk is a cheater. No matter how you spin it, cheating on your partners and then blaming one for everything after her kits die is morally reprehensible. Also, you say choosing the code over her makes him "loyal", but its clear he would've kept her and Reedshine if she hadn't turned up admitting everything on his doorstep. He didn't do it out of loyalty to his clan, he did it to save his skin and keep one girlfriend. Finally, I concede that that bit with Maple watching Reed was pretty weird, but she turned out to be right in the end. Also, there's no indication that AppleReed hadn't already started being mates, because it's stated Apple gave her a nervous look before joining reedshine.
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Post by Rainsplash on Aug 29, 2021 7:39:09 GMT -5
I'm irritated when the fandom says Mapleshade is innocent and Appledusk deserved to die and he should've gone to the Dark Forest!!!! and Ravenwing should've lied for Mapleshade and totally deserved what he got!!! Frecklewish is evil for not throwing herself into the river to help Mapleshade!!!! Reedshine is also evil for being snarky at poor Mapleshade!!!! That is completely fair but I also stated multiple times throughout this ramble that I do not think any of them deserved to die. Oh yes I wasn't saying or implying that you were one of those fandom people who said that
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Post by Rainsplash on Aug 29, 2021 7:42:33 GMT -5
I'm irritated when the fandom says Mapleshade is innocent and Appledusk deserved to die and he should've gone to the Dark Forest!!!! and Ravenwing should've lied for Mapleshade and totally deserved what he got!!! Frecklewish is evil for not throwing herself into the river to help Mapleshade!!!! Reedshine is also evil for being snarky at poor Mapleshade!!!! At the end of the day, two wrongs don't make a right, and Mapleshade was also still a victim in this as well. It doesn't mean that people are trying to say that Mapleshade was justified in killing those said cats, but at the same time their treatment of her was down right cruel. And her behavior gets brushed under the rug just because Mapleshade kills them, or they end up in bad positions by the end of the novella. Appledusk didn't deserve the Dark Forest, but at the end of the day he was till a scumbag that cheated on both Mapleshade and Reedshine, and didn't even bother to learn his own kits names. While also throwing Mapleshade under the bus to save his own skin, he wasn't really punished for anything. He got to stay in RiverClan, got to keep one of his mates, and had more kits on the way, so he essentially lost nothing compared to Mapleshade. Ravenwing was a medicine cat, who knew that his actions would cause the kits to suffer, but still decided to go to Oakstar with his assumptions. Even if he didn't want to lie, and despite the prophecy, he still could have spoken out against the cruelty of his clanmates for the sake of those kits. If he actually cared about them, he would have spoken to Oakstar, and have Mapleshade and her kits properly escorted to RiverClan, not driven out and treated like garbage. When Dovewing betrayed TC and openly said she was going to stay with ShC, Bramblestar still had enough sense to send an escort with a mother and her children. Frecklewish is honestly caused a lot of things on herself. She used Mapleshade as much as Maple did her, wanting to pressure Maple into the idea of her kits being her brothers. And then supporting her father's idea of having the kits be used as tools for revenge against Appledusk. Calling the kits half-clan creatures after attacking their mother's face in front of them, and then pushing for their exile. She arguably hated the kits as much as she did Mapleshade just because of who their father was. And there is no excuse for her actions at the River. She stalked after Mapleshade out of the camp and into the storm, to make sure she left. She also knew that a RiverClan patrol was nearby, but instead of calling out for help, or doing anything at all, she walked away from the situation. She saw a mother and kits drowning and left them to their fate. When the patrol did rescue Mapleshade, they had no idea the kits were in the river too until Mapleshade forced it out and begged them to save them. But by the time they do rescue the kits its too late. If they had known from the start, and even acted sooner, those kits could have lived. If Frecklewish actually had any sympathy for those innocent kits, despite her hatred for Mapleshade, she would have called to the patrol and gotten them to help. But she didn't. In the end, her attacking Mapleshade caused her own demise. There were always other options for those cats, the luxury Mapleshade never had the moment Appledusk became enemy #1. They treated her with bias, and hatred, and no regard to those kits that deserved none of that treatment. It doesn't justify Mapleshade's actions when she killed them out of revenge, but it also doesn't mean they're completely innocent in how they treated her like many claim. People constantly try to defend the actions of Raven, Oak, Apple, and Freckle, or minimize what they did to Mapleshade just because she's Mapleshade. Some even going as far to blame Mapleshade for everything, which is nonsensical on it's on. No one was right, and the only innocent cats were Myler and the kits. Her victims aren't innocent and you're right that Mapleshade was a victim in the end as well. In my original post though I was just pointing out the fandom sometimes tend to overreact on some matters.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Aug 29, 2021 8:24:59 GMT -5
That is completely fair but I also stated multiple times throughout this ramble that I do not think any of them deserved to die. Oh yes I wasn't saying or implying that you were one of those fandom people who said that Alright, gotcha!
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 29, 2021 9:02:35 GMT -5
At the end of the day, two wrongs don't make a right, and Mapleshade was also still a victim in this as well.
It doesn't mean that people are trying to say that Mapleshade was justified in killing those said cats, but at the same time their treatment of her was down right cruel. And her behavior gets brushed under the rug just because Mapleshade kills them, or they end up in bad positions by the end of the novella.
Appledusk didn't deserve the Dark Forest, but at the end of the day he was till a scumbag that cheated on both Mapleshade and Reedshine, and didn't even bother to learn his own kits names. While also throwing Mapleshade under the bus to save his own skin, he wasn't really punished for anything. He got to stay in RiverClan, got to keep one of his mates, and had more kits on the way, so he essentially lost nothing compared to Mapleshade.
Ravenwing was a medicine cat, who knew that his actions would cause the kits to suffer, but still decided to go to Oakstar with his assumptions. Even if he didn't want to lie, and despite the prophecy, he still could have spoken out against the cruelty of his clanmates for the sake of those kits. If he actually cared about them, he would have spoken to Oakstar, and have Mapleshade and her kits properly escorted to RiverClan, not driven out and treated like garbage. When Dovewing betrayed TC and openly said she was going to stay with ShC, Bramblestar still had enough sense to send an escort with a mother and her children.
Frecklewish is honestly caused a lot of things on herself. She used Mapleshade as much as Maple did her, wanting to pressure Maple into the idea of her kits being her brothers. And then supporting her father's idea of having the kits be used as tools for revenge against Appledusk. Calling the kits half-clan creatures after attacking their mother's face in front of them, and then pushing for their exile. She arguably hated the kits as much as she did Mapleshade just because of who their father was. And there is no excuse for her actions at the River. She stalked after Mapleshade out of the camp and into the storm, to make sure she left. She also knew that a RiverClan patrol was nearby, but instead of calling out for help, or doing anything at all, she walked away from the situation. She saw a mother and kits drowning and left them to their fate. When the patrol did rescue Mapleshade, they had no idea the kits were in the river too until Mapleshade forced it out and begged them to save them. But by the time they do rescue the kits its too late. If they had known from the start, and even acted sooner, those kits could have lived. If Frecklewish actually had any sympathy for those innocent kits, despite her hatred for Mapleshade, she would have called to the patrol and gotten them to help. But she didn't. In the end, her attacking Mapleshade caused her own demise.
There were always other options for those cats, the luxury Mapleshade never had the moment Appledusk became enemy #1. They treated her with bias, and hatred, and no regard to those kits that deserved none of that treatment. It doesn't justify Mapleshade's actions when she killed them out of revenge, but it also doesn't mean they're completely innocent in how they treated her like many claim. People constantly try to defend the actions of Raven, Oak, Apple, and Freckle, or minimize what they did to Mapleshade just because she's Mapleshade. Some even going as far to blame Mapleshade for everything, which is nonsensical on it's on. No one was right, and the only innocent cats were Myler and the kits. Her victims aren't innocent and you're right that Mapleshade was a victim in the end as well. In my original post though I was just pointing out the fandom sometimes tend to overreact on some matters. That's true, I honestly think it's just a mixture of the fact that Mapleshade is a controversial character, and she's been around for years is all.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Aug 29, 2021 10:27:55 GMT -5
I'm irritated when the fandom says Mapleshade is innocent and Appledusk deserved to die and he should've gone to the Dark Forest!!!! and Ravenwing should've lied for Mapleshade and totally deserved what he got!!! Frecklewish is evil for not throwing herself into the river to help Mapleshade!!!! Reedshine is also evil for being snarky at poor Mapleshade!!!! At the end of the day, two wrongs don't make a right, and Mapleshade was also still a victim in this as well. It doesn't mean that people are trying to say that Mapleshade was justified in killing those said cats, but at the same time their treatment of her was down right cruel. And her behavior gets brushed under the rug just because Mapleshade kills them, or they end up in bad positions by the end of the novella. Appledusk didn't deserve the Dark Forest, but at the end of the day he was till a scumbag that cheated on both Mapleshade and Reedshine, and didn't even bother to learn his own kits names. While also throwing Mapleshade under the bus to save his own skin, he wasn't really punished for anything. He got to stay in RiverClan, got to keep one of his mates, and had more kits on the way, so he essentially lost nothing compared to Mapleshade. Ravenwing was a medicine cat, who knew that his actions would cause the kits to suffer, but still decided to go to Oakstar with his assumptions. Even if he didn't want to lie, and despite the prophecy, he still could have spoken out against the cruelty of his clanmates for the sake of those kits. If he actually cared about them, he would have spoken to Oakstar, and have Mapleshade and her kits properly escorted to RiverClan, not driven out and treated like garbage. When Dovewing betrayed TC and openly said she was going to stay with ShC, Bramblestar still had enough sense to send an escort with a mother and her children. Frecklewish is honestly caused a lot of things on herself. She used Mapleshade as much as Maple did her, wanting to pressure Maple into the idea of her kits being her brothers. And then supporting her father's idea of having the kits be used as tools for revenge against Appledusk. Calling the kits half-clan creatures after attacking their mother's face in front of them, and then pushing for their exile. She arguably hated the kits as much as she did Mapleshade just because of who their father was. And there is no excuse for her actions at the River. She stalked after Mapleshade out of the camp and into the storm, to make sure she left. She also knew that a RiverClan patrol was nearby, but instead of calling out for help, or doing anything at all, she walked away from the situation. She saw a mother and kits drowning and left them to their fate. When the patrol did rescue Mapleshade, they had no idea the kits were in the river too until Mapleshade forced it out and begged them to save them. But by the time they do rescue the kits its too late. If they had known from the start, and even acted sooner, those kits could have lived. If Frecklewish actually had any sympathy for those innocent kits, despite her hatred for Mapleshade, she would have called to the patrol and gotten them to help. But she didn't. In the end, her attacking Mapleshade caused her own demise. There were always other options for those cats, the luxury Mapleshade never had the moment Appledusk became enemy #1. They treated her with bias, and hatred, and no regard to those kits that deserved none of that treatment. It doesn't justify Mapleshade's actions when she killed them out of revenge, but it also doesn't mean they're completely innocent in how they treated her like many claim. People constantly try to defend the actions of Raven, Oak, Apple, and Freckle, or minimize what they did to Mapleshade just because she's Mapleshade. Some even going as far to blame Mapleshade for everything, which is nonsensical on it's on. No one was right, and the only innocent cats were Myler and the kits. louder for those in the back
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Post by cygna on Aug 29, 2021 16:45:33 GMT -5
Frecklewish is the only one of these cats I ACTUALLY feel bad for. She was in a terrible place after loosing a loved one just like Mapleshade.
Appledusk on the other hand... now being objective, does a cheater deserve to die? No, absolutely not... BUT would it have rubbed salt in the wound if Appledusk got to live happily ever after with his backup family? YEAH!!! It's completely unfair if someone faces ZERO consequences for their actions while someone else suffers so I was pretty happy when he died actually.
I also do not like Ravenwing.
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Asexual
#07B04C
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Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 29, 2021 17:13:17 GMT -5
Agreed with this post. Mapleshade's victims didn't deserve to die but their actions were crappy and unjustified.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Aug 29, 2021 17:15:56 GMT -5
Honestly, Mapleshade isn’t the only one responsible for the kits’ death. Appledusk is too. The moment those kits left RiverClan camp, they were in danger. Appledusk did little to stop any of this. Did the kits ever enter the RiverClan camp at all? I'm pretty sure that her kits drowned when they were trying to get to RiverClan.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Aug 31, 2021 19:14:22 GMT -5
"Perhaps the kits dying was an act of mercy on the world's behalf"
wh-what? elaborate???
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Post by Aqua on Aug 31, 2021 20:11:24 GMT -5
Mapleshade is just a moron. She didn't deserve to be exiled, but in some sense, she DID bring everything upon herself because she broke the damn warrior code. She did not think twice of her consequences, putting herself and her own kits in danger. Her clan hates Appledusk and she knew this - yet she was STILL planning to tell the truth about the father. She had unrealistic expectations of her kittens, thinking they would stop RC and TC from fighting about territory. This is why many people blame her for what she's done. She chose to lie to her clan and take a RiverClan mate. Many of us do not believe she deserves that hash punishment Oakstar gave her, but in the end, Mapleshade chose to break the warrior code, and expected Ravenwing to clean up her own mistakes for her. She did not think twice about her actions at all. She is a frustrating character who's a moron.
And yes. Appledusk isn't any better. Neither are any of the other characters. It's just that I think Mapleshade handled this poorly by not thinking twice about her actions, and because of her choosing to break the warrior code at a very bad time, she put herself and her own kits in danger. She was just dumb.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 31, 2021 20:46:01 GMT -5
sorry but what exactly did people want frecklewish to do about the kits drowning in a flash-flooding river? grow wings and fly??? she probably couldnt swim worth an ass. thunderclan cats have nearly drowned multiple times in this series just trying to cross the river during normal not-flood times.
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Post by Chicken on Aug 31, 2021 21:20:04 GMT -5
sorry but what exactly did people want frecklewish to do about the kits drowning in a flash-flooding river? grow wings and fly??? she probably couldnt swim worth an ass. thunderclan cats have nearly drowned multiple times in this series just trying to cross the river during normal not-flood times. I've seen people say before that she could have called for a patrol or something.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 31, 2021 21:28:29 GMT -5
sorry but what exactly did people want frecklewish to do about the kits drowning in a flash-flooding river? grow wings and fly??? she probably couldnt swim worth an ass. thunderclan cats have nearly drowned multiple times in this series just trying to cross the river during normal not-flood times. I've seen people say before that she could have called for a patrol or something. ??? i doubt there was one that just happened to be within shouting distance at the time, and also in the time itd take for her to go look for one, it'd be too late. and also for all we know she did try to do something like that in a panic, and we wouldnt know since it was mapleshade's POV
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Post by Chicken on Aug 31, 2021 21:34:13 GMT -5
I've seen people say before that she could have called for a patrol or something. ??? i doubt there was one that just happened to be within shouting distance at the time, and also in the time itd take for her to go look for one, it'd be too late. and also for all we know she did try to do something like that in a panic, and we wouldnt know since it was mapleshade's POV That's a good point. I agree with you, I'm just saying what I've heard.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Sept 1, 2021 6:03:53 GMT -5
I've seen people say before that she could have called for a patrol or something. ??? i doubt there was one that just happened to be within shouting distance at the time, and also in the time itd take for her to go look for one, it'd be too late. and also for all we know she did try to do something like that in a panic, and we wouldnt know since it was mapleshade's POV In the novella it's pointed out she was aware of the patrol nearby, Frecklewish literally saw them drowning and being dragged down river and walked away from it. Nothing was stopping her from at least alarming the patrol about them and the kits being in the river. It would still have been something instead of her seeing a situation like that and leaving them to their fate, over guaranteeing them a chance and trying to get help. Not to mention, when the patrol rescued Mapleshade, they had no idea about the kits being in the river as well until Mapleshade forced it out and told them. It's only then does the patrol rush back into the water to save the kits, but by then it is too late, if they had known sooner, they could have acted faster to save them on time. Frecklewish knew the patrol was nearby, didn't alert them, and left them to be eventually discovered by the patrol instead. The idea that Frecklewish panicked and then left them to drown makes no sense, if she was actually panicking while calling for help, I'd buy it, but instead she left them claiming she thought they'd' be fine. Doesn't seem like someone who was panicking would say. Frecklewish has no excuse, and Mapleshade had no reason to believe she cared about the kits considering she called "half-clan creatures" and vocally pushed for all for them to be punished and exiled.
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Sept 2, 2021 17:07:19 GMT -5
Mapleshade is just a moron. She didn't deserve to be exiled, but in some sense, she DID bring everything upon herself because she broke the damn warrior code. She did not think twice of her consequences, putting herself and her own kits in danger. Her clan hates Appledusk and she knew this - yet she was STILL planning to tell the truth about the father. She had unrealistic expectations of her kittens, thinking they would stop RC and TC from fighting about territory. This is why many people blame her for what she's done. She chose to lie to her clan and take a RiverClan mate. Many of us do not believe she deserves that hash punishment Oakstar gave her, but in the end, Mapleshade chose to break the warrior code, and expected Ravenwing to clean up her own mistakes for her. She did not think twice about her actions at all. She is a frustrating character who's a moron. And yes. Appledusk isn't any better. Neither are any of the other characters. It's just that I think Mapleshade handled this poorly by not thinking twice about her actions, and because of her choosing to break the warrior code at a very bad time, she put herself and her own kits in danger. She was just dumb. Yeah mapleshade's just a complete dumbass I find it very funny to think of her running around committing murders and manipulating crookedjaw with an iq of room temperature
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Post by starlightstoryteller on Sept 2, 2021 17:14:49 GMT -5
One of the hardest parts about discussing this novella is the fact that nobody actually remembers what happened in the book lol
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