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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 16, 2021 15:33:33 GMT -5
she'd fight with tigerstar all the time. sure, you can say she "accepted" dovewing's choice to move, but i'm pretty sure she didn't make up with tigerheart himself. if she actually did, let me know, but as far as i know, i don't think she did.
she's too emotional driven and would make decisions based on her heart, not her head. and im sick of current leaders acting out of emotion and not logic and intellect. she's not level headed or rational in my opinion.
plus, she was never a good spy in the first place, so people who say "she's the only good option" for deputy/leader is not right. what did she even really do or accomplish? why would she be a good leader? just because she "did something" in the past? what if that "something" isn't even that good or impactful? ivypool was never all this worthy so why does the fandom STILL hype her up?
just because she was a former protag, doesnt mean she's the ONLY cat who "deserves" a leadership position. giving the position to background cats like molewhisker, lilyheart, stormcloud, or cherryfall would be more beneficial for different leader types, and cut back on the former protag and firekin bias (and since im a broken record, i'll remind everyone i hate firekin and former protag focus being the only thing this fandom cares about when picking their choices for deputy/leader).
this is just my opinion peice on this topic and just wanted to share.
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Post by Midnightcacoon loves Sunbeam on Aug 16, 2021 16:16:09 GMT -5
Thats an interesting take on Ivystar. I think most people just want her as leader because she's a fan favorite. and I never really thought about the tigerstar thing. I wouldn't mind her being a new leader, but other choices like molewhisker or lilyheart might be better for the clan overall. Plus it's nice to see a non-POV become leader for once.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 16, 2021 16:17:04 GMT -5
Ivypool would make a fine deputy. She's tough and knows how to deal with pressure, and those are good qualities to have for deputy status because they are responsible to look after the entire clan, and I believe she would protect her clan no matter what the case is. But, she would make a horrible leader. She has allowed her emotions rule over her entire life. She blames other cats for her own problems and puts pressure onto others for things that wasn't her place to put pressure on in the first place. She is mean to a lot of cats and clearly still has a problem with Dovewing leaving ShadowClan. She and Tigerstar would absolutely fight. It's obvious she still has a problem with Dovewing leaving ShadowClan, and I don't think that would suit well with her and Tigerstar as a leader at all. She just wouldn't make a good leader, I can't see it. But she has the qualities of a good deputy and I think she'd be okay for that status. Unless she learns how to master her own emotions and proves me otherwise, I won't believe she's ready to be leader. Letting her emotions get the best of herself isn't something you'd master overnight; it takes a lot of time and practice, and she has done this her whole life and acted like an asshole to a lot of cats. She better improve herself before she becomes leader.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 16, 2021 17:50:29 GMT -5
I want her and Tigerstar to fight simply so I can see her kick his ass. That would be delicious, he’s deserved an ass kicking since the day he became leader. Tbh, I’d love a flawed Thunderclan leader, and Ivypool being tough and dedicated would be very nice for me. I would happily do Molestar with deputy Ivypool too.
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Post by vectoring34 on Aug 16, 2021 17:56:55 GMT -5
Stop, I can only get so excited.
Ivypool's not my first choice, but if she becomes leader on the promise of kicking Tigerheart's butt, well, I'm certainly not gonna complain
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 16, 2021 18:01:41 GMT -5
I want her and Tigerstar to fight simply so I can see her kick his ass. That would be delicious, he’s deserved an ass kicking since the day he became leader. Tbh, I’d love a flawed Thunderclan leader, and Ivypool being tough and dedicated would be very nice for me. I would happily do Molestar with deputy Ivypool too. i hate tigerstar and want him to get crapped on in public, but i dont want ivypool in a leadership role just to have that happen. thunderclan deserves a stoic and actual level headed leader, which is why im such a big molewhisker supporter.
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Post by Moonblazer on Aug 16, 2021 18:23:58 GMT -5
I want her and Tigerstar to fight simply so I can see her kick his ass. That would be delicious, he’s deserved an ass kicking since the day he became leader. Tbh, I’d love a flawed Thunderclan leader, and Ivypool being tough and dedicated would be very nice for me. I would happily do Molestar with deputy Ivypool too. i hate tigerstar and want him to get crapped on in public, but i dont want ivypool in a leadership role just to have that happen. thunderclan deserves a stoic and actual level headed leader, which is why im such a big molewhisker supporter. I’d be delighted with both, I’d kill two birds with one stone lol. I just prefer a more aggressive leader for Thunderclan for a change over a mushy peaceful one. Even then, I really do not think Ivypool would even be that aggressive. She’s loyal to her clan, and mature enough to know when to hold back. That, and she resolved her issues with Dovewing and consequently Tigerstar. But Tigerstar’s recent actions? I hope he gets his ass whooped. He deserved a fat ass whooping when he tried to insult Graystripe and Graystripe told his ass to sit down and shut up, which was fantastic. Ivypool doing that too? Delicious, I can dream lol
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 16, 2021 18:33:21 GMT -5
you know my position
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 16, 2021 20:38:11 GMT -5
Thing is, Ivypool does have leadership qualities, she's shown that enough during her DF training, and even now her voice holds weight among the other senior cats in the clan. She's good at fighting tactics, an excellent hunter, and knows had to take reigns of command. Ivypool can be compassionate, kind and brave, but she can also be blunt, stoic, and battle-ready. The only reason she and Tigertwo would even end up in a battle is that she wouldn't take any of his bullcrap laying down and wouldn't hesitate to put him in his place. And let's be honest, she's gotten past the crap with her and her sister already, she's accepted that her sister left and moved on, and she's moved on herself, even if she doesn't approve of them breaking the code. If they ever did throw down, it would be because Tigertwo needs to be taken down a few pegs. With his behavior in AVoS and TBC, he's grown more arrogant, aggressive, and hypocritical, while taking advantage of his leadership position. The utter amount of disrespect he had towards TC's acting leaders; Gray, Lion and Squirrel, was appalling. Squirrelflight was too busy grieving, Lionblaze was too hotheaded, Graystripe is much too old but he still politely still told him to piss off. And the fact that he tried to pull wool over his own clan's eyes just to force his son into exile, was also embarrassing. He's a real crap of a leader in general, and we need another leader that would actually challenge him. Ivypool would easily be able to shut his trap up for him. No one thinks she deserves leadership just because she was a former protag, there's a reason why Ivypool of all the other protagonists gets the most support in general for the next leadership pick. It's because she's actually qualitified, has development, and she's not too closely related to Fire or Tigerkin. Molewhisker, Lilyheart, Stormcloud, and Cherryfall are all okay choices, but as deputy, not leadership, we've barely seen anything from them at all that would make them prove or qualify for a leadership position, and honestly all three are still too young imo. And when it comes to decisions, we've seen that over time that Ivpool is more driven by choices of her head, over her heart, while her sister is the opposite, and follows her heart over her head, that's why they clashed so much. In the end they're still sisters, and they loved one another, but they'll always clash because of Ivypool's value of the code and morality of situations, vs Dovewing's fleeting and more naïve choices. Also, it's not like she's going to go straight to leadership, there's a reason why cats train as deputy first. Cats with the qualities of a leader are chosen to be deputy, and then perfect their skills they already have so they can one day lead the clan. And Ivypool will do just that if and when she gets to that position, honestly the only reason she wouldn't is because the Erins would prefer another cat over her over them actually choosing based on skill. Because if we're being honest, she's quite overqualified at this point.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Aug 16, 2021 21:00:38 GMT -5
Thing is, Ivypool does have leadership qualities, she's shown that enough during her DF training, and even now her voice holds weight among the other senior cats in the clan. She's good at fighting tactics, an excellent hunter, and knows had to take reigns of command. Ivypool can be compassionate, kind and brave, but she can also be blunt, stoic, and battle-ready. The only reason she and Tigertwo would even end up in a battle is that she wouldn't take any of his bullcrap laying down and wouldn't hesitate to put him in his place. And let's be honest, she's gotten past the crap with her and her sister already, she's accepted that her sister left and moved on, and she's moved on herself, even if she doesn't approve of them breaking the code. If they ever did throw down, it would be because Tigertwo needs to be taken down a few pegs. With his behavior in AVoS and TBC, he's grown more arrogant, aggressive, and hypocritical, while taking advantage of his leadership position. The utter amount of disrespect he had towards TC's acting leaders; Gray, Lion and Squirrel, was appalling. Squirrelflight was too busy grieving, Lionblaze was too hotheaded, Graystripe is much too old but he still politely still told him to piss off. And the fact that he tried to pull wool over his own clan's eyes just to force his son into exile, was also embarrassing. He's a real crap of a leader in general, and we need another leader that would actually challenge him. Ivypool would easily be able to shut his trap up for him. No one thinks she deserves leadership just because she was a former protag, there's a reason why Ivypool of all the other protagonists gets the most support in general for the next leadership pick. It's because she's actually qualitified, has development, and she's not too closely related to Fire or Tigerkin. Molewhisker, Lilyheart, Stormcloud, and Cherryfall are all okay choices, but as deputy, not leadership, we've barely seen anything from them at all that would make them prove or qualify for a leadership position, and honestly all three are still too young imo. And when it comes to decisions, we've seen that over time that Ivpool is more driven by choices of her head, over her heart, while her sister is the opposite, and follows her heart over her head, that's why they clashed so much. In the end they're still sisters, and they loved one another, but they'll always clash because of Ivypool's value of the code and morality of situations, vs Dovewing's fleeting and more naïve choices. Also, it's not like she's going to go straight to leadership, there's a reason why cats train as deputy first. Cats with the qualities of a leader are chosen to be deputy, and then perfect their skills they already have so they can one day lead the clan. And Ivypool will do just that if and when she gets to that position, honestly the only reason she wouldn't is because the Erins would prefer another cat over her over them actually choosing based on skill. Because if we're being honest, she's quite overqualified at this point. agree to disagree on this, sorry. i dont like the argument "we dont see much of the background cats so they're not even options." molewhisker's actions in AVOS prove to me he's level headed and responsible enough. young leaders don't really matter since firestar was young himself. as long as they're good enough characters and have had an apprentice, they can be contenders. ivypool shouldn't be the only option or the only one who is "qualified." people only think that because she used to be a protagonist and thus we "saw more of her" compared to the other cats. people just dont like looking into background cats and into their actions. sure, some of that can lead to assumptions or lean into headcanon territory, but people still shut it down so much. people need to look into the background cats more instead of just what we're shown most often.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 16, 2021 21:17:51 GMT -5
Thing is, Ivypool does have leadership qualities, she's shown that enough during her DF training, and even now her voice holds weight among the other senior cats in the clan. She's good at fighting tactics, an excellent hunter, and knows had to take reigns of command. Ivypool can be compassionate, kind and brave, but she can also be blunt, stoic, and battle-ready. The only reason she and Tigertwo would even end up in a battle is that she wouldn't take any of his bullcrap laying down and wouldn't hesitate to put him in his place. And let's be honest, she's gotten past the crap with her and her sister already, she's accepted that her sister left and moved on, and she's moved on herself, even if she doesn't approve of them breaking the code. If they ever did throw down, it would be because Tigertwo needs to be taken down a few pegs. With his behavior in AVoS and TBC, he's grown more arrogant, aggressive, and hypocritical, while taking advantage of his leadership position. The utter amount of disrespect he had towards TC's acting leaders; Gray, Lion and Squirrel, was appalling. Squirrelflight was too busy grieving, Lionblaze was too hotheaded, Graystripe is much too old but he still politely still told him to piss off. And the fact that he tried to pull wool over his own clan's eyes just to force his son into exile, was also embarrassing. He's a real crap of a leader in general, and we need another leader that would actually challenge him. Ivypool would easily be able to shut his trap up for him. No one thinks she deserves leadership just because she was a former protag, there's a reason why Ivypool of all the other protagonists gets the most support in general for the next leadership pick. It's because she's actually qualitified, has development, and she's not too closely related to Fire or Tigerkin. Molewhisker, Lilyheart, Stormcloud, and Cherryfall are all okay choices, but as deputy, not leadership, we've barely seen anything from them at all that would make them prove or qualify for a leadership position, and honestly all three are still too young imo. And when it comes to decisions, we've seen that over time that Ivpool is more driven by choices of her head, over her heart, while her sister is the opposite, and follows her heart over her head, that's why they clashed so much. In the end they're still sisters, and they loved one another, but they'll always clash because of Ivypool's value of the code and morality of situations, vs Dovewing's fleeting and more naïve choices. Also, it's not like she's going to go straight to leadership, there's a reason why cats train as deputy first. Cats with the qualities of a leader are chosen to be deputy, and then perfect their skills they already have so they can one day lead the clan. And Ivypool will do just that if and when she gets to that position, honestly the only reason she wouldn't is because the Erins would prefer another cat over her over them actually choosing based on skill. Because if we're being honest, she's quite overqualified at this point. agree to disagree on this, sorry. i dont like the argument "we dont see much of the background cats so they're not even options." molewhisker's actions in AVOS prove to me he's level headed and responsible enough. young leaders don't really matter since firestar was young himself. as long as they're good enough characters and have had an apprentice, they can be contenders. ivypool shouldn't be the only option or the only one who is "qualified." people only think that because she used to be a protagonist and thus we "saw more of her" compared to the other cats. people just dont like looking into background cats and into their actions. sure, some of that can lead to assumptions or lean into headcanon territory, but people still shut it down so much. people need to look into the background cats more instead of just what we're shown most often. I'm not saying that they're not options. I said that that we haven't seen much of them that would show and prove they'd be good leaders, but I'm fine with them being deputies, that was my point. It's why I was so open to Harespring being deputy, even if he was only chosen just to show good faith between the trainees and Onestar's trust. However, he later DID prove he had leadership skills when he stood up to Onestar, and took an important moral stand point, but also did it in a way that was within the code. And since becoming leader he's been very consistent and level headed, which is why he's currently my second favorite leader. So to clarify, I'm not saying they couldn't be good leaders one day, they very well could, but I'd rather see proof of their leaderships skills first and qualifications before becoming leaders. Firestar was a young leader, but he wasn't a perfect one either. Firestar was a protagonist, and had a prophecy, something none of the other cats mentioned had in common, and even Ivypool wasn't involved in a prophecy. So we were going to see exceptions be made for Firestar, regardless of how young he was. Also, no one is saying Ivypool should be the only option, it's just that a lot of fans prefer her as their first choice, it doesn't mean she's even the first choice for the Erins, and she's not considering Squirrelflight and Lionblaze were in the position over her. Heck, even Bristlefrost, her daughter, and Berrynose, who didn't even have an apprentice yet, were technically deputies over Ivypool first. Background characters can be developed, the problem is that the Erins don't do it as often as they used to, back during POT and OotS, a lot of background characters had much more accomplishments, personalities, and development in general. But nowadays that's hardly the case. I personally very much do enjoy Molewhisker, Cherryfall, Lilywhisker and Stormcloud as characters, from the little screen time they've already been given, which is why I think it would be interesting to see them in deputy positions. But that doesn't mean I think they're qualified for a leadership position yet, and that's something I'd like to see first. Because a deputy position is still a training/developing position, even if people don't see it that way. A deputy is in training to become leader one day, not just go straight into that position. I'm fine with background characters being deputies, but I want to see them developed better before they become leaders, and show proof of their leadership qualities, not when they're already leaders. Otherwise we'll just have a Reedwhisker situation all over again. This is just for clarification, but we can agree to disagree.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Aug 16, 2021 22:40:05 GMT -5
I don't want Ivystar just because I also think she's happy with her current situation. After all she's been through, I get the feeling she rather have a quiet life with her mate and kits and just be a normal cat for once.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Aug 17, 2021 11:07:43 GMT -5
I personally want a more agressive leader for ThunderClan in the future and someone to kick Tigerstar II's butt while they're in charge. So my choice is between Lionblaze and Ivypool because both of them also got some beef with him.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Aug 17, 2021 12:56:41 GMT -5
Thing is, Ivypool does have leadership qualities, she's shown that enough during her DF training, and even now her voice holds weight among the other senior cats in the clan. She's good at fighting tactics, an excellent hunter, and knows had to take reigns of command. Ivypool can be compassionate, kind and brave, but she can also be blunt, stoic, and battle-ready. The only reason she and Tigertwo would even end up in a battle is that she wouldn't take any of his bullcrap laying down and wouldn't hesitate to put him in his place. And let's be honest, she's gotten past the crap with her and her sister already, she's accepted that her sister left and moved on, and she's moved on herself, even if she doesn't approve of them breaking the code. If they ever did throw down, it would be because Tigertwo needs to be taken down a few pegs. With his behavior in AVoS and TBC, he's grown more arrogant, aggressive, and hypocritical, while taking advantage of his leadership position. The utter amount of disrespect he had towards TC's acting leaders; Gray, Lion and Squirrel, was appalling. Squirrelflight was too busy grieving, Lionblaze was too hotheaded, Graystripe is much too old but he still politely still told him to piss off. And the fact that he tried to pull wool over his own clan's eyes just to force his son into exile, was also embarrassing. He's a real crap of a leader in general, and we need another leader that would actually challenge him. Ivypool would easily be able to shut his trap up for him. No one thinks she deserves leadership just because she was a former protag, there's a reason why Ivypool of all the other protagonists gets the most support in general for the next leadership pick. It's because she's actually qualitified, has development, and she's not too closely related to Fire or Tigerkin. Molewhisker, Lilyheart, Stormcloud, and Cherryfall are all okay choices, but as deputy, not leadership, we've barely seen anything from them at all that would make them prove or qualify for a leadership position, and honestly all three are still too young imo. And when it comes to decisions, we've seen that over time that Ivpool is more driven by choices of her head, over her heart, while her sister is the opposite, and follows her heart over her head, that's why they clashed so much. In the end they're still sisters, and they loved one another, but they'll always clash because of Ivypool's value of the code and morality of situations, vs Dovewing's fleeting and more naïve choices. Also, it's not like she's going to go straight to leadership, there's a reason why cats train as deputy first. Cats with the qualities of a leader are chosen to be deputy, and then perfect their skills they already have so they can one day lead the clan. And Ivypool will do just that if and when she gets to that position, honestly the only reason she wouldn't is because the Erins would prefer another cat over her over them actually choosing based on skill. Because if we're being honest, she's quite overqualified at this point. agree to disagree on this, sorry. i dont like the argument "we dont see much of the background cats so they're not even options." molewhisker's actions in AVOS prove to me he's level headed and responsible enough. young leaders don't really matter since firestar was young himself. as long as they're good enough characters and have had an apprentice, they can be contenders. ivypool shouldn't be the only option or the only one who is "qualified." people only think that because she used to be a protagonist and thus we "saw more of her" compared to the other cats. people just dont like looking into background cats and into their actions. sure, some of that can lead to assumptions or lean into headcanon territory, but people still shut it down so much. people need to look into the background cats more instead of just what we're shown most often. I'm suprised when people complain that background characters need to be developed, yet more popular and well-known characters are usually choosen to fill the larger roles that get more attention by the books. That's why i want characters like Cherryfall, Lilyheart and Stormcloud in the leader/deputy position. I want to see their personality being built up and forming a full-blown character. How can we say they don't seem to have leadership drive when they're barely developed? Can't background characters grow to become strong leaders? Instead, with choosing characters like Ivypool as leader, not only is the story gonna repeat with telling us about the same character all over again, but it leaves almost no creativity to new plots and character developement. As much as i would like seeing Tigerheartstar kick her behind, i would prefer we are told new stories with fresh potential. In my opinion i would rather see a character that can be developed even if they dont have much leader qualities, than having an overqualified cat as leader but only not letting us move on from older characters.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 17, 2021 13:21:59 GMT -5
agree to disagree on this, sorry. i dont like the argument "we dont see much of the background cats so they're not even options." molewhisker's actions in AVOS prove to me he's level headed and responsible enough. young leaders don't really matter since firestar was young himself. as long as they're good enough characters and have had an apprentice, they can be contenders. ivypool shouldn't be the only option or the only one who is "qualified." people only think that because she used to be a protagonist and thus we "saw more of her" compared to the other cats. people just dont like looking into background cats and into their actions. sure, some of that can lead to assumptions or lean into headcanon territory, but people still shut it down so much. people need to look into the background cats more instead of just what we're shown most often. I'm suprised when people complain that background characters need to be developed, yet more popular and well-known characters are usually choosen to fill the larger roles that get more attention by the books. That's why i want characters like Cherryfall, Lilyheart and Stormcloud in the leader/deputy position. I want to see their personality being built up and forming a full-blown character. How can we say they don't seem to have leadership drive when they're barely developed? Can't background characters grow to become strong leaders? Instead, with choosing characters like Ivypool as leader, not only is the story gonna repeat with telling us about the same character all over again, but it leaves almost no creativity to new plots and character developement. As much as i would like seeing Tigerheartstar kick her behind, i would prefer we are told new stories with fresh potential. In my opinion i would rather see a character that can be developed even if they dont have much leader qualities, than having an overqualified cat as leader but only not letting us move on from older characters. There are definitely a lot more characters who can become a leader. I want a background character to become deputy, not someone who's been used multiple times before like Ivypool. She isn't the only one qualified in the clan. I wouldn't mind if someone like Stormcloud became deputy because he definitely needs some spotlight even if it's just something as small as organizing patrols. I'm tired of Ivypool getting used over and over again. She was a mentor to Twigbranch and she was used again to get mad at Dovewing... which were scenes that really didn't need to add up in the stories. Twigbranch honestly should've had a different mentor. I liked her relationship with Ivypool a lot, but it was frustrating to see yet another previous important character to have more spotlight.
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Post by Chicken on Aug 17, 2021 14:05:40 GMT -5
agree to disagree on this, sorry. i dont like the argument "we dont see much of the background cats so they're not even options." molewhisker's actions in AVOS prove to me he's level headed and responsible enough. young leaders don't really matter since firestar was young himself. as long as they're good enough characters and have had an apprentice, they can be contenders. ivypool shouldn't be the only option or the only one who is "qualified." people only think that because she used to be a protagonist and thus we "saw more of her" compared to the other cats. people just dont like looking into background cats and into their actions. sure, some of that can lead to assumptions or lean into headcanon territory, but people still shut it down so much. people need to look into the background cats more instead of just what we're shown most often. I'm suprised when people complain that background characters need to be developed, yet more popular and well-known characters are usually choosen to fill the larger roles that get more attention by the books. That's why i want characters like Cherryfall, Lilyheart and Stormcloud in the leader/deputy position. I want to see their personality being built up and forming a full-blown character. How can we say they don't seem to have leadership drive when they're barely developed? Can't background characters grow to become strong leaders? Instead, with choosing characters like Ivypool as leader, not only is the story gonna repeat with telling us about the same character all over again, but it leaves almost no creativity to new plots and character developement. As much as i would like seeing Tigerheartstar kick her behind, i would prefer we are told new stories with fresh potential. In my opinion i would rather see a character that can be developed even if they dont have much leader qualities, than having an overqualified cat as leader but only not letting us move on from older characters. I love this post so much.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Aug 17, 2021 15:41:09 GMT -5
Also, to add, I also wouldn’t mind a more background character being leader. It worked VERY well for Harestar
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Post by Aqua on Aug 17, 2021 16:04:57 GMT -5
If people want more aggressive leaders then why is no one happy with Lionblaze? I mean he was pretty high up there from what I remember and was quite aggressive as well but nobody liked his behavior. But sure, Ivypool is a cool leader if she's aggressive ig. :/
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Aug 17, 2021 16:07:08 GMT -5
If people want more aggressive leaders then why is no one happy with Lionblaze? I mean he was pretty high up there from what I remember and was quite aggressive as well but nobody liked his behavior. But sure, Ivypool is a cool leader if she's aggressive ig. :/ I would be very happy with either of them for that reason but not everyone wants an agressive leader, which is fine.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 17, 2021 16:08:10 GMT -5
I could never see Ivypool as leader.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 17, 2021 16:09:16 GMT -5
If people want more aggressive leaders then why is no one happy with Lionblaze? I mean he was pretty high up there from what I remember and was quite aggressive as well but nobody liked his behavior. But sure, Ivypool is a cool leader if she's aggressive ig. :/ I would be very happy with either of them for that reason but not everyone wants an agressive leader, which is fine. I like Ivypool as a character on her own but it's genuinely frustrating how a lot of people treat her like she's some god. I don't judge her based on her fandom anymore but it genuinely feels like if she's an asshole it's okay and people give her excuses and suddenly she's a strong woman but if everyone else acts just like her they'll get called immature. I didn't mean to come off as disrespectful or anything but it's one of my frustrations with Ivypool bias in the fandom. It's not directed at you or anything but her fandom still annoys me even if I like Ivypool more as a character now. She's not a terrible character but there are so many other options who can become a deputy or a leader other than her.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Aug 17, 2021 16:12:12 GMT -5
If people want more aggressive leaders then why is no one happy with Lionblaze? I mean he was pretty high up there from what I remember and was quite aggressive as well but nobody liked his behavior. But sure, Ivypool is a cool leader if she's aggressive ig. :/ I think it might be because some people don't see Ivypool as irrational compared to Lionblaze or even Tigerheart. Personally, I hope neither make it to leader, but especially Lionblaze, if his recent behavior is anything to go by.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 17, 2021 16:12:26 GMT -5
she isn't ready because she's still immature and will fight Tigerstar because of her own grudge against him. She will make an okay deputy but as a leader? She'd be terrible.
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Post by Aqua on Aug 17, 2021 16:15:36 GMT -5
If people want more aggressive leaders then why is no one happy with Lionblaze? I mean he was pretty high up there from what I remember and was quite aggressive as well but nobody liked his behavior. But sure, Ivypool is a cool leader if she's aggressive ig. :/ I think it might be because some people don't see Ivypool as irrational compared to Lionblaze or even Tigerheart. Personally, I hope neither make it to leader, but especially Lionblaze, if his recent behavior is anything to go by. I would rather both Lionblaze and Ivypool didn't become leader because they would make poor choices based on their emotions. Ivypool would probably be a bit more smarter due to her dedication to her clan I suppose, but she and Tigerstar wouldn't get along at all at gatherings. And as much as I defend Lionblaze, I can't see him making wise choices for his clan tbh.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Aug 17, 2021 16:18:41 GMT -5
I would be very happy with either of them for that reason but not everyone wants an agressive leader, which is fine. I like Ivypool as a character on her own but it's genuinely frustrating how a lot of people treat her like she's some god. I don't judge her based on her fandom anymore but it genuinely feels like if she's an asshole it's okay and people give her excuses and suddenly she's a strong woman but if everyone else acts just like her they'll get called immature. I didn't mean to come off as disrespectful or anything but it's one of my frustrations with Ivypool bias in the fandom. It's not directed at you or anything but her fandom still annoys me even if I like Ivypool more as a character now. She's not a terrible character but there are so many other options who can become a deputy or a leader other than her. I don't think of Ivypool as a perfect being who is never wrong or can't be criticized. The only character this applies to for me is Cinderpelt (I'm kidding but not really).
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Post by Aqua on Aug 17, 2021 16:22:21 GMT -5
I like Ivypool as a character on her own but it's genuinely frustrating how a lot of people treat her like she's some god. I don't judge her based on her fandom anymore but it genuinely feels like if she's an asshole it's okay and people give her excuses and suddenly she's a strong woman but if everyone else acts just like her they'll get called immature. I didn't mean to come off as disrespectful or anything but it's one of my frustrations with Ivypool bias in the fandom. It's not directed at you or anything but her fandom still annoys me even if I like Ivypool more as a character now. She's not a terrible character but there are so many other options who can become a deputy or a leader other than her. I don't think of Ivypool as a perfect being who is never wrong or can't be criticized. The only character this applies to for me is Cinderpelt (I'm kidding but not really). Oh I know not all fans are like that! but unfortunately I feel like a lot of them are, especially when it comes to debating. It's part of the reason why I don't really debate anymore, I still enjoy talking but when it comes to debating it's mostly just people excusing the character's behavior and it's very frustrating because it's always in circles. I have defended Ivypool's sister for years but now I just don't really care anymore lmao. Ivypool pissed me off a lot years ago because everyone always excused her and defended her actions and her jealousy. i mean i do understand why she feels the way she does but ive seen ppl excuse her so much, i don't think any other characters gets defended as much as her. like if shes jealous its relatable. if any other character gets jealous they're an asshole. it's really frustrating tbh.
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Aroace
#ffa100
Name Colour
𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑
Villain Enjoyer
Taking a break from the forums because my cat died. Will probably be back mid to late October.
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Post by 𝕱𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖋𝖆𝖑𝖑 on Aug 17, 2021 16:38:14 GMT -5
I don't think of Ivypool as a perfect being who is never wrong or can't be criticized. The only character this applies to for me is Cinderpelt (I'm kidding but not really). Oh I know not all fans are like that! but unfortunately I feel like a lot of them are, especially when it comes to debating. It's part of the reason why I don't really debate anymore, I still enjoy talking but when it comes to debating it's mostly just people excusing the character's behavior and it's very frustrating because it's always in circles. I have defended Ivypool's sister for years but now I just don't really care anymore lmao. Ivypool pissed me off a lot years ago because everyone always excused her and defended her actions and her jealousy. i mean i do understand why she feels the way she does but ive seen ppl excuse her so much, i don't think any other characters gets defended as much as her. like if shes jealous its relatable. if any other character gets jealous they're an asshole. it's really frustrating tbh. I feel like this is up to how strongly a fan feels about certain characters and some of them just want to convince others of agreeing with them despite the fact that, at least in my own personal opinion, everyone needs to chose or decide for themselves how to treat these fictional cats. On the notion of finding Ivypool's jealousy relatable, I'm actually one of those who do because of my own real life experiences with an older sister that always seemed to have it easier than I ever did. Even though that's no longer the case now, I remember sitting in my room crying and worrying if I could ever make my family as proud of me as they were of her and then reading the OotS arc to suddenly find someone dealing with a similar issue. That doesn't mean Ivypool is without faults though and she is certainly allowed to receive criticism if her behaviour qualifies for it.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Aug 17, 2021 18:52:04 GMT -5
I feel like there's a misconception here. Just because people want Ivypool to be leader, doesn't mean that we don't want background characters to possibly become deputy or leader one day either. Also again, no one is saying that Ivypool is the only qualified person in the clan, only that she is the most qualified due to the current circumstances. She's a preestablished developed character. She's not related to any prophecies. She doesn't have any special powers. She's not closely related to either Fire/Tiger kin. She's a good fighter and hunter. Her word has weight in the clan's decisions. She's shown to have leadership skills. She's mentored two apprentices. She's also not too young or too old. And she's a complex character in general; She's not perfect, but she's also not obtuse. I don't think she should be dismissed as possibility becoming leader just because she was a former protagonist, just like how I don't think a background character should become leader simply for being a background cat. Characters can also be developed even when they're not in higher position roles, the Erins have done it plenty of times before, it's just that lately, they haven't been doing it as much. And on top of that, just because someone likes the idea of Ivypool being leader, doesn't mean you should assume that they would mind other background characters being choices either, or have a desire for them to be developed more as characters. Being in a deputy/leader doesn't = to getting development, like I said before, Reedwhisker is an exact example of that. Harespring was a pre-established character thanks to the Dark Forest training and was only made deputy to show good faith between Onestar and his trust in the trainees, not because of his qualities as a possible leader. However, he does prove later on that he DOES have leadership skills, not because of his position, but because of his actions. He could have done what he did, even as a warrior, at the end of the day he was still going against his leader, but he did it through his medicine cat and with StarClan's approval. And when it came to Lionnblaze, I personally wasn't fond of the idea of him being leader near the start of TBC, but seeing him being more interesting and developed again changed my mind for a moment. Due to the recent books though, and him stepping down in favor of Graystripe, the Erins already proved why he wouldn't work well in a leadership position. He was given his chance and he proved he's too aggressive and hot headed. On the other hand, Squirrelflight was also shown she wouldn't do to good in the leadership position as well. The difference between those two is that Ivypool hasn't been given a chance yet, and she may even prove to be more competent than them both, we don't know yet. But what we do know atm is that Graystripe is currently the best choice. He's experienced, and he's level headed, but also not a pushover, and him being chosen is obviously a temporary thing, especially because of his age.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 17, 2021 21:04:14 GMT -5
molewhisker could kick tigerheartstar's behind btw, it doesnt have to be ivypool
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 17, 2021 21:19:08 GMT -5
And when it comes to decisions, we've seen that over time that Ivpool is more driven by choices of her head, over her heart, while her sister is the opposite, and follows her heart over her head, that's why they clashed so much. In the end they're still sisters, and they loved one another, but they'll always clash because of Ivypool's value of the code and morality of situations, vs Dovewing's fleeting and more naïve choices. whoa whoa wait when has ivypool shown herself to be a head over heart sorta character? im not saying she's super emotional but thinking back on her character i cant think of much that sets her aside as particularly pragmatic or morally driven by the code, not more than like. any other average warrior. like sure next to dovewing she is, but dovewing is an emotional sop so that's a low bar. im struggling to think of a prominent example or two where's she's expressly denied her heart in a really difficult situation for the sake of pragmatism. i guess you could say the DF thing, but that's was in large part because her heart got her into that problem in the first place and she was trying to rectify/make up for it. and she was also kinda backed into the spying stuff, partially from the Three and partially because it became a life or death situation. i'm neutral on ivypool as a character, just dunno if i'd characterize her as a "head over heart" or "value the code" as a clear quality. characters who come to mind on that are mousefur, TOS yellowfang, whitestorm, crookedstar, maybe mothwing.
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