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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on May 21, 2021 9:16:12 GMT -5
Even if Tawnypelt thought the owl had killed Needletail, it doesn't change the fact that they didn't even consider fact this possibility. Quite literally it's like the equivalent of a child being kidnapped off the street, rescued by a stranger, returning home and only to find out that her clan, or family, had immediately given up on her. I understand what you are saying, but I cannot agree with this comparison at all. Kids who are kidnapped are often take alive for a reason, i.e. kept that way at least for awhile (usually for trafficking). Loads of kidnapped children are found alive. Contrastingly, a small animal taken by a raptor (owl in this case) is almost certainly a death sentence. Sure there's a teeny tiny chance they miraculously survive, but it's negligible. It would be a nice gesture for someone to go looking for Needletail, but not required by any means to prove that they care about her. It's even worse when it was an owl taking Needletail- an owl can fly really high and it would have already killed Needletail by the time she was carried very far away. Even then, if the owl dropped her, it surely would have already been from really high, inmediately killing her, or she would have already been so far away that they couldn't risk looking for her or they could get attacked by foxes, owls, snakes, etc.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 21, 2021 9:18:57 GMT -5
This makes me think of other cats who were taken by birds of prey. Snowkit and Bright Stream were basically treated as death sentences. Once they were taken, the cats who cared about them assumed they were goners. Bright Stream was literally pregnant and they still assumed she was dead. They genuinely believed Needletail was gone. It’s a low possibility that a cat can survive from that. This, and not to mention both Ambermoon and Tigerheart, full grown Warriors, were killed by large birds and they were much stronger, faster and more equipped to survive an attack. Needlepaw, a young apprentice on her first day of training would be a very understandable assumption of a death sentence. Yes, it was a traumatic experience, but in the same way Thunderclan couldn’t afford to spend more time and resources on searching after Dovewing when she left, I don’t blame Shadowclan for assuming she was absolutely going to be dead and not sending patrols out to search for bird prey. Even then, the intent was still never malicious either. Shadowclan doesn’t deserve what Needletail brought to them simply for thinking the obvious. Absolutely.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 21, 2021 9:35:12 GMT -5
In addition to what everybody else has said about the death rates of kidnapping vs being snatched up by a bird of prey (at this point the comparison would more accurately be if you saw someone get grabbed by a shark and dragged into a rip current), this is also factually incorrect. There was no patrol for Snowkit, Brackenfur dashed off on his own and Fireheart had Swiftpaw follow him because having one cat just dashing through the woods alone is vulnerable given the other tensions happening lately. All that demonstrates is that Brackenfur was more impulsive, but there was never any official patrol by Fireheart who declared from the start that it was useless. Swiftpaw also concurred and the clan in general seemed to agree it was wasted effort
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 9:42:45 GMT -5
Even if Tawnypelt thought the owl had killed Needletail, it doesn't change the fact that they didn't even consider fact this possibility. Quite literally it's like the equivalent of a child being kidnapped off the street, rescued by a stranger, returning home and only to find out that her clan, or family, had immediately given up on her. I understand what you are saying, but I cannot agree with this comparison at all. Kids who are kidnapped are often take alive for a reason, i.e. kept that way at least for awhile (usually for trafficking). Loads of kidnapped children are found alive. Contrastingly, a small animal taken by a raptor (owl in this case) is almost certainly a death sentence. Sure there's a teeny tiny chance they miraculously survive, but it's negligible. It would be a nice gesture for someone to go looking for Needletail, but not required by any means to prove that they care about her. The issue is that they didn't even bother to try. Even a single patrol would have suffice. He has so many cats in the clan, and you're telling me that he didn't have the time nor day to even send out a single patrol of at least two cats to even check at all? They so easily gave up on a cat that was young and very reliant on her mentor, her mentor she trusted, her mentor that reassured her she'd be fine and even chided her for being afraid. She was put in the responsibility of the older cats around her and they didn't even give a sniff that she was carried off, not even caring at the possibility that she could have survived.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 9:45:29 GMT -5
In addition to what everybody else has said about the death rates of kidnapping vs being snatched up by a bird of prey (at this point the comparison would more accurately be if you saw someone get grabbed by a shark and dragged into a rip current), this is also factually incorrect. There was no patrol for Snowkit, Brackenfur dashed off on his own and Fireheart had Swiftpaw follow him because having one cat just dashing through the woods alone is vulnerable given the other tensions happening lately. All that demonstrates is that Brackenfur was more impulsive, but there was never any official patrol by Fireheart who declared from the start that it was useless. Swiftpaw also concurred and the clan in general seemed to agree it was wasted effort Even if it wasn't an official patrol, it was still a group of two that went after Snowkit to save them even at the small chance of the kit being dropped. That was the point. If Snowkit was dropped, it he still had a possible chance, but in this particular case he didn't. Needlepaw on the other hand did have a chance, she was dropped, survived the drop and could have been found if Rowan even bothered to send out a patrol. But he didn't.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 21, 2021 10:06:46 GMT -5
In addition to what everybody else has said about the death rates of kidnapping vs being snatched up by a bird of prey (at this point the comparison would more accurately be if you saw someone get grabbed by a shark and dragged into a rip current), this is also factually incorrect. There was no patrol for Snowkit, Brackenfur dashed off on his own and Fireheart had Swiftpaw follow him because having one cat just dashing through the woods alone is vulnerable given the other tensions happening lately. All that demonstrates is that Brackenfur was more impulsive, but there was never any official patrol by Fireheart who declared from the start that it was useless. Swiftpaw also concurred and the clan in general seemed to agree it was wasted effort Even if it wasn't an official patrol, it was still a group of two that went after Snowkit to save them even at the small chance of the kit being dropped. That was the point. If Snowkit was dropped, it he still had a possible chance, but in this particular case he didn't. Needlepaw on the other hand did have a chance, she was dropped, survived the drop and could have been found if Rowan even bothered to send out a patrol. But he didn't. Brackenfur rushed off in a burst of passion without thinking clearly and Swiftpaw was sent only to make sure Brackenfur didn't get himself into trouble, Fireheart certainly gave no order to the end of trying to help Snowkit. Does this mean Fireheart doesn't care now? No, he did, but he also recognized that if something is small enough for a raptor to pick up, it's practically speaking already dead the moment the raptor has taken off with it. But even if you told Tawnypelt to Brackenfur's standard, she more than did her duty, because she mentions she saw Needletail looking so limp that she thought the owl had broken her spine. Needletail WASN'T limp at first, that only came a little after she was picked up. Ergo, Tawnypelt DID run after Needletail, just like Brackenfur ran after Snowkit. But then she saw Needletail was limp, stopped the chase, and headed back to camp. With Needletail looking like she's already dead, sending out a patrol would be a waste of time. More than just a waste, it could be dangerous because the owl was crossing territory boundaries(the land turned to marsh then moors) very quickly and we all know how trigger happy Onestar is. Rowanstar acted quite literally the exact same as Fireheart in this situation, wherein a warrior chased after the raptor, made an assessment that it would be impossible to recover the stolen cat, and then reported as such to him. And with that report, both Rowanstar and Fireheart decided to not send out any patrol because as far as they're concerned, that is that.
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Post by kitters on May 21, 2021 10:13:41 GMT -5
you and everyone else have been saying she's not rowanstar's victim. That is my point. Imo it's really hard for me to see how anyone could come to the conclusion that she wasn't victimized by Rowanstar when he is the root cause of a lot of her trauma. I mean if we want to be honest, Needletail is the root cause. Needetail made a big deal at the gathering that she found Violetkit with Alderheart and therefore deserved to keep her in Shadowclan, which in turn forced Rowanstar’s paw lest his clan get all up in arms for letting Thunderclan walk all over them and keep important kits, because they have shown that they clearly do not want Thunderclan having any leg to stand on. Needletail was also the one to sneak Violetkit out to meet with murderous rouges and steal her from the nursery to do so, to which Rowanstar orders Pinenose to keep Violetkit in the nursery and watch over her closer. Then, Needletail is also the one manipulating her and guilt tripping her to always support her crappy actions and choices. The root of Violetshine’s trauma honestly moreso comes from Needletail. Nahhhh nah I don't care how much Needlepaw "forced his paw" this is an adult cat in a high position of power who has the most control over the situation, it was HIS responsibility to say "no, this is wrong." If he can't control his clan from complaining that's his problem but I don't think the blame should be shifted away from him just because his clan would have made a fuss. BTW I hope no one thinks I'm arguing Needletail didn't traumatize Violet, she did, but I don't get why y'all are woobyfying Rowanstar like the poor wittle cat was pressured by this bratty 12 year old to separate and then NEGLECT this literal baby and then you're like "she's not his victim tho uhhh his paw was forced"
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Post by kitters on May 21, 2021 10:16:11 GMT -5
Also I said he was the root cause of a lot of her trauma, not all of it.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 10:28:25 GMT -5
I mean if we want to be honest, Needletail is the root cause. Needetail made a big deal at the gathering that she found Violetkit with Alderheart and therefore deserved to keep her in Shadowclan, which in turn forced Rowanstar’s paw lest his clan get all up in arms for letting Thunderclan walk all over them and keep important kits, because they have shown that they clearly do not want Thunderclan having any leg to stand on. Needletail was also the one to sneak Violetkit out to meet with murderous rouges and steal her from the nursery to do so, to which Rowanstar orders Pinenose to keep Violetkit in the nursery and watch over her closer. Then, Needletail is also the one manipulating her and guilt tripping her to always support her crappy actions and choices. The root of Violetshine’s trauma honestly moreso comes from Needletail. Nahhhh nah I don't care how much Needlepaw "forced his paw" this is an adult cat in a high position of power who has the most control over the situation, it was HIS responsibility to say "no, this is wrong." If he can't control his clan from complaining that's his problem but I don't think the blame should be shifted away from him just because his clan would have made a fuss. BTW I hope no one thinks I'm arguing Needletail didn't traumatize Violet, she did, but I don't get why y'all are woobyfying Rowanstar like the poor wittle cat was pressured by this bratty 12 year old to separate and then NEGLECT this literal baby and then you're like "she's not his victim tho uhhh his paw was forced" I’m not saying his decision was the right one. I’m also not saying that Violetshine didn’t suffer from being separated from her sister. I’m also not shifting blame for anything considering we all know good and well he was partially at fault for Shadowclan’s issues. Honestly I see way more woobification of Needletail than I do of Rowanstar from people like you and others. I’m not saying at all that his choice was justified. But I’m saying how, in that exact situation and circumstance, I can see why that decision was made. Was it a good reason? No. But was Violetshine as viciously abused by Pinenose or the clan outside her bratty gang of friends as you seem to claim she was? Not really, from what I read. It kind of did seem like you were arguing Needletail had 0 responsibility or blame in the situation from my perspective when a vast majority of Violetshine’s issues were stemmed from her awful “friendship” and guilt-tripping, but I’m not going to assume so I apologize if I did for a moment there. I respect your opinion, even if I do not fully agree with it.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 21, 2021 10:31:44 GMT -5
I mean if we want to be honest, Needletail is the root cause. Needetail made a big deal at the gathering that she found Violetkit with Alderheart and therefore deserved to keep her in Shadowclan, which in turn forced Rowanstar’s paw lest his clan get all up in arms for letting Thunderclan walk all over them and keep important kits, because they have shown that they clearly do not want Thunderclan having any leg to stand on. Needletail was also the one to sneak Violetkit out to meet with murderous rouges and steal her from the nursery to do so, to which Rowanstar orders Pinenose to keep Violetkit in the nursery and watch over her closer. Then, Needletail is also the one manipulating her and guilt tripping her to always support her crappy actions and choices. The root of Violetshine’s trauma honestly moreso comes from Needletail. Nahhhh nah I don't care how much Needlepaw "forced his paw" this is an adult cat in a high position of power who has the most control over the situation, it was HIS responsibility to say "no, this is wrong." If he can't control his clan from complaining that's his problem but I don't think the blame should be shifted away from him just because his clan would have made a fuss. BTW I hope no one thinks I'm arguing Needletail didn't traumatize Violet, she did, but I don't get why y'all are woobyfying Rowanstar like the poor wittle cat was pressured by this bratty 12 year old to separate and then NEGLECT this literal baby and then you're like "she's not his victim tho uhhh his paw was forced" Rowanstar would face more than complaints if he refused. They all ended up leaving him even after he did that not much later, how much worse do you think they'd have acted if he refused to take Violetkit and ended up looking weak as a consequence? One shouldn't minimize the consequences of losing face before one's clan, it was a very serious matter. He did not act correctly and it was selfish to do so but there was more on the line than just complaints. Needletail being turned into a bratty 12 year old is also very inaccurate to the reality of apprentices in warriors society. Apprentices are expected to hunt and fight on the frontlines just as much as any other, they are more akin to Medieval squires. There's a bit more social standing at sake.
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Post by kitters on May 21, 2021 10:32:54 GMT -5
Nahhhh nah I don't care how much Needlepaw "forced his paw" this is an adult cat in a high position of power who has the most control over the situation, it was HIS responsibility to say "no, this is wrong." If he can't control his clan from complaining that's his problem but I don't think the blame should be shifted away from him just because his clan would have made a fuss. BTW I hope no one thinks I'm arguing Needletail didn't traumatize Violet, she did, but I don't get why y'all are woobyfying Rowanstar like the poor wittle cat was pressured by this bratty 12 year old to separate and then NEGLECT this literal baby and then you're like "she's not his victim tho uhhh his paw was forced" I’m not saying his decision was the right one. I’m also not saying that Violetshine didn’t suffer from being separated from her sister. I’m also not shifting blame for anything considering we all know good and well he was partially at fault for Shadowclan’s issues. Honestly I see way more woobification of Needletail than I do of Rowanstar from people like you and others. I’m not saying at all that his choice was justified. But I’m saying how, in that exact situation and circumstance, I can see why that decision was made. Was it a good reason? No. But was Violetshine as viciously abused by Pinenose or the clan outside her bratty gang of friends as you seem to claim she was? Not really, from what I read. It kind of did seem like you were arguing Needletail had 0 responsibility or blame in the situation from my perspective when a vast majority of Violetshine’s issues were stemmed from her awful “friendship” and guilt-tripping, but I’m not going to assume so I apologize if I did for a moment there. I respect your opinion, even if I do not fully agree with it. Yeeeaaahhh I wasn't defending Needletail at all on this thread. The strange insistence that she wasn't victimized by Rowanstar is very... perplexing to me considering you acknowledge everything he did was wrong and has no excuse and his own fault, but she's not his victim.. like im confused but ok
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Post by kitters on May 21, 2021 10:35:22 GMT -5
Nahhhh nah I don't care how much Needlepaw "forced his paw" this is an adult cat in a high position of power who has the most control over the situation, it was HIS responsibility to say "no, this is wrong." If he can't control his clan from complaining that's his problem but I don't think the blame should be shifted away from him just because his clan would have made a fuss. BTW I hope no one thinks I'm arguing Needletail didn't traumatize Violet, she did, but I don't get why y'all are woobyfying Rowanstar like the poor wittle cat was pressured by this bratty 12 year old to separate and then NEGLECT this literal baby and then you're like "she's not his victim tho uhhh his paw was forced" Rowanstar would face more than complaints if he refused. They all ended up leaving him even after he did that not much later, how much worse do you think they'd have acted if he refused to take Violetkit and ended up looking weak as a consequence? One shouldn't minimize the consequences of losing face before one's clan, it was a very serious matter. He did not act correctly and it was selfish to do so but there was more on the line than just complaints. Needletail being turned into a bratty 12 year old is also very inaccurate to the reality of apprentices in warriors society. Apprentices are expected to hunt and fight on the frontlines just as much as any other, they are more akin to Medieval squires. There's a bit more social standing at sake. the fact that his clan would have complained is no excuse though. I don't care that he would have lost face. Bruh shouldn't have taken that baby. Like I rly don't care how "forced" he was.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 10:36:33 GMT -5
I’m not saying his decision was the right one. I’m also not saying that Violetshine didn’t suffer from being separated from her sister. I’m also not shifting blame for anything considering we all know good and well he was partially at fault for Shadowclan’s issues. Honestly I see way more woobification of Needletail than I do of Rowanstar from people like you and others. I’m not saying at all that his choice was justified. But I’m saying how, in that exact situation and circumstance, I can see why that decision was made. Was it a good reason? No. But was Violetshine as viciously abused by Pinenose or the clan outside her bratty gang of friends as you seem to claim she was? Not really, from what I read. It kind of did seem like you were arguing Needletail had 0 responsibility or blame in the situation from my perspective when a vast majority of Violetshine’s issues were stemmed from her awful “friendship” and guilt-tripping, but I’m not going to assume so I apologize if I did for a moment there. I respect your opinion, even if I do not fully agree with it. Yeeeaaahhh I wasn't defending Needletail at all on this thread. The strange insistence that she wasn't victimized by Rowanstar is very... perplexing to me considering you acknowledge everything he did was wrong and has no excuse and his own fault, but she's not his victim.. like im confused but ok You see it as victimization, in these circumstances and instances I personally didn’t. That’s just my perspective, and we can agree to disagree on that. You think the root to her trauma is Rowanstar, I think it’s morseo Needletail. I’d rather not continue this discussion with the tone of the responses at this point.
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Post by kitters on May 21, 2021 10:40:37 GMT -5
Yeeeaaahhh I wasn't defending Needletail at all on this thread. The strange insistence that she wasn't victimized by Rowanstar is very... perplexing to me considering you acknowledge everything he did was wrong and has no excuse and his own fault, but she's not his victim.. like im confused but ok You see it as victimization, in these circumstances and instances I personally didn’t. That’s just my perspective, and we can agree to disagree on that. You think the root to her trauma is Rowanstar, I think it’s morseo Needletail. I’d rather not continue this discussion with the tone of the responses at this point. I said he was the root cause of a lot her her trauma not all of it, like I've already stated
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 10:42:15 GMT -5
You see it as victimization, in these circumstances and instances I personally didn’t. That’s just my perspective, and we can agree to disagree on that. You think the root to her trauma is Rowanstar, I think it’s morseo Needletail. I’d rather not continue this discussion with the tone of the responses at this point. I said he was the root cause of a lot her her trauma not all of it, like I've already stated Then I misread. Sorry.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 10:51:50 GMT -5
Even if it wasn't an official patrol, it was still a group of two that went after Snowkit to save them even at the small chance of the kit being dropped. That was the point. If Snowkit was dropped, it he still had a possible chance, but in this particular case he didn't. Needlepaw on the other hand did have a chance, she was dropped, survived the drop and could have been found if Rowan even bothered to send out a patrol. But he didn't. Brackenfur rushed off in a burst of passion without thinking clearly and Swiftpaw was sent only to make sure Brackenfur didn't get himself into trouble, Fireheart certainly gave no order to the end of trying to help Snowkit. Does this mean Fireheart doesn't care now? No, he did, but he also recognized that if something is small enough for a raptor to pick up, it's practically speaking already dead the moment the raptor has taken off with it. But even if you told Tawnypelt to Brackenfur's standard, she more than did her duty, because she mentions she saw Needletail looking so limp that she thought the owl had broken her spine. Needletail WASN'T limp at first, that only came a little after she was picked up. Ergo, Tawnypelt DID run after Needletail, just like Brackenfur ran after Snowkit. But then she saw Needletail was limp, stopped the chase, and headed back to camp. With Needletail looking like she's already dead, sending out a patrol would be a waste of time. More than just a waste, it could be dangerous because the owl was crossing territory boundaries(the land turned to marsh then moors) very quickly and we all know how trigger happy Onestar is. Rowanstar acted quite literally the exact same as Fireheart in this situation, wherein a warrior chased after the raptor, made an assessment that it would be impossible to recover the stolen cat, and then reported as such to him. And with that report, both Rowanstar and Fireheart decided to not send out any patrol because as far as they're concerned, that is that. He sent Swiftpaw to help Brackenfur with Snowkit, not for Brackenfur's protection. Regardless, again, he has plenty of cats, too many cats, them at least sending a patrol to look out for Needletail just in case, as far as they could, before finally then conceding would at least show they cared. And the reason why Needletail was upset wasn't just because of how they so easily gave up on her, but also because of how they treated Tree and other cats outside of the clan and code.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 11:04:00 GMT -5
Youth are blank slates, what they learn is based on their environment and those around them. The apprentices didn't just wake up and choose not to behavior or listen to rules and be disrespectful. It's what they picked up from cats around them. Elders, warriors, their own kin, and even their own leader. Rowanstar was aware they were stepping out of line, breaking the code even, yet still refused to do anything about it, let alone listen to his own cats. Nor did he take fault himself, he's a leader with responsibility, but he was incompetent.
If even warriors and elders are gossiping and talking behind your back, or have less faith in your skills to lead, then there is an issue. Also, because of Rowanstar not being able to keep his clan together, it made things oh the much easier for Darktail and his group to just mosey in and take over. They took advantage of these young cats, manipulated them, and convinced them even further that they're in the right and the grass is greener on the other side, similar to how the Dark Forest behaved. But the difference is that this is reality, not kitty cat hell, it's in the real world.
Why do they want ShadowClan to be feared again? Because that's what the adults said. They said ShadowClan used to be feared and powerful, but yet everything they gossiped about was nothing like they were living now. Now they were just a clan, overpopulated, and neglected, another number under a leader's paw, and he didn't know what to do with them all. Honestly, Rowanstar wasn't suited for leadership, or if anything should have stepped down sooner, but not to the point that he ices his clan into extinction.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 11:07:06 GMT -5
To be completely fair though, Shadowclan does not have the best track record when it comes to letting in and trusting outsiders, even if Tree seemed like a perfectly fine and kind cat. I’m not surprised that they turned him away. Tree also seemed to make it clear that he did not suit well into what clan life would be. I can see why Needletail would be upset, for sure, but I can’t blame Shadowclan for denying him after they’d been burned by rouges and loners so much in the past.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 11:11:28 GMT -5
Youth are blank slates, what they learn is based on their environment and those around them. The apprentices didn't just wake up and choose not to behavior or listen to rules and be disrespectful. It's what they picked up from cats around them. Elders, warriors, their own kin, and even their own leader. Rowanstar was aware they were stepping out of line, breaking the code even, yet still refused to do anything about it, let alone listen to his own cats. Nor did he take fault himself, he's a leader with responsibility, but he was incompetent. If even warriors and elders are gossiping and talking behind your back, or have less faith in your skills to lead, then there is an issue. Also, because of Rowanstar not being able to keep his clan together, it made things oh the much easier for Darktail and his group to just mosey in and take over. They took advantage of these young cats, manipulated them, and convinced them even further that they're in the right and the grass is greener on the other side, similar to how the Dark Forest behaved. But the difference is that this is reality, not kitty cat hell, it's in the real world. Why do they want ShadowClan to be feared again? Because that's what the adults said. They said ShadowClan used to be feared and powerful, but yet everything they gossiped about was nothing like they were living now. Now they were just a clan, overpopulated, and neglected, another number under a leader's paw, and he didn't know what to do with them all. Honestly, Rowanstar wasn't suited for leadership, or if anything should have stepped down sooner, but not to the point that he ices his clan into extinction. I agree on the last point. He should have stepped down sooner. The sad thing was, he was very much so getting ready to. Then Tigerheart abandoned the clan. He told Tigerheart that he wanted to know if he would want to lead Shadowclan, that the clan clearly respected Tigerheart more than they respected him. He was very much so ready to just step down for Shadowclan’s sake earlier than he did. I think Tigerheart’s abandonment was the last leg in the race for him at that point.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 21, 2021 11:22:51 GMT -5
Brackenfur rushed off in a burst of passion without thinking clearly and Swiftpaw was sent only to make sure Brackenfur didn't get himself into trouble, Fireheart certainly gave no order to the end of trying to help Snowkit. Does this mean Fireheart doesn't care now? No, he did, but he also recognized that if something is small enough for a raptor to pick up, it's practically speaking already dead the moment the raptor has taken off with it. But even if you told Tawnypelt to Brackenfur's standard, she more than did her duty, because she mentions she saw Needletail looking so limp that she thought the owl had broken her spine. Needletail WASN'T limp at first, that only came a little after she was picked up. Ergo, Tawnypelt DID run after Needletail, just like Brackenfur ran after Snowkit. But then she saw Needletail was limp, stopped the chase, and headed back to camp. With Needletail looking like she's already dead, sending out a patrol would be a waste of time. More than just a waste, it could be dangerous because the owl was crossing territory boundaries(the land turned to marsh then moors) very quickly and we all know how trigger happy Onestar is. Rowanstar acted quite literally the exact same as Fireheart in this situation, wherein a warrior chased after the raptor, made an assessment that it would be impossible to recover the stolen cat, and then reported as such to him. And with that report, both Rowanstar and Fireheart decided to not send out any patrol because as far as they're concerned, that is that. He sent Swiftpaw to help Brackenfur with Snowkit, not for Brackenfur's protection. Regardless, again, he has plenty of cats, too many cats, them at least sending a patrol to look out for Needletail just in case, as far as they could, before finally then conceding would at least show they cared. And the reason why Needletail was upset wasn't just because of how they so easily gave up on her, but also because of how they treated Tree and other cats outside of the clan and code. The implications are vague in that scene but given Fireheart knew it was hopeless, it came off to me like he was just there as backup in case anything went wrong rather than a dedicated rescue mission. Why should they send out a patrol? Fireheart didn't send one out after Brackenfur lost Snowkit, he just accepted his word that he was gone and that was that. Rowanstar presumably did the same, he accepted that Tawnypelt had lost her and that was the end of it. The only thing he didn't do was send someone with Tawnypelt while Tawnypelt briefly chased, but that can hardly be his fault when he wasn't even there. By the time Rowanstar had any power to do anything, the owl was long gone and Tawnypelt had reported Needletail as dead. There was nothing else to do but hold a vigil. As for Tree, Rowanstar wasn't even present in that scene so it's very hard to slap any judgement on him for that.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 11:25:17 GMT -5
To be completely fair though, Shadowclan does not have the best track record when it comes to letting in and trusting outsiders, even if Tree seemed like a perfectly fine and kind cat. I’m not surprised that they turned him away. Tree also seemed to make it clear that he did not suit well into what clan life would be. I can see why Needletail would be upset, for sure, but I can’t blame Shadowclan for denying him after they’d been burned by rouges and loners so much in the past. Fair enough. Rowanstar honestly had big shoes (paws?) to fill, I may not have liked Blackstar as a leader, but he was competent when he had to be, and wasn't some dictator like Brokenstar and Tigerstar. I don't think Rowanstar is a bad character, too inconsistent for my taste sure, but bad? No. I just think as a leader he was not the best choice, and a change in leadership should have happened sooner. He had too much on his plate, and did not know how to handle it, but this comes with the responsibilities of a leader, if they're unable to deal with things like this it will just pile up until it becomes worse. I didn't have much of a problem if he had stepped down to Crowfrost of Tigerheart, however after Tigerheart abandoned his clan I don't think he deserved leadership at that point. I will say ThS did do a disservice to Rowan's character because it tore him down to make Tigerheart look good, or look deserving of leadership despite everything he's done. That I will agree on. When it comes to those outside their clan, I don't blame them for being cautious, but it's wild to me considering they've had very notable members that have joined from even kittpet origins who have become well respected in their ranks. Tree helped Needletail back to her clan, he didn't have to, but he did, he should have at least been able to speak with Rowanstar based on that. But instead he was just shooed away insistently by Tawnypelt, not really given a second thought. And it was obvious to Needletail that he was hurt by that, and he wanted to stay, it was Tawnypelt that assumed Clan life wasn't for him before they gave him a chance.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 11:36:50 GMT -5
To be completely fair though, Shadowclan does not have the best track record when it comes to letting in and trusting outsiders, even if Tree seemed like a perfectly fine and kind cat. I’m not surprised that they turned him away. Tree also seemed to make it clear that he did not suit well into what clan life would be. I can see why Needletail would be upset, for sure, but I can’t blame Shadowclan for denying him after they’d been burned by rouges and loners so much in the past. When it comes to those outside their clan, I don't blame them for being cautious, but it's wild to me considering they've had very notable members that have joined from even kittpet origins who have become well respected in their ranks. Tree helped Needletail back to her clan, he didn't have to, but he did, he should have at least been able to speak with Rowanstar based on that. But instead he was just shooed away insistently by Tawnypelt, not really given a second thought. And it was obvious to Needletail that he was hurt by that, and he wanted to stay, it was Tawnypelt that assumed Clan life wasn't for him before they gave him a chance. Crowfrost could have been a great option, though I know that sadly the apprentices and clan didn’t seem to really respect him all that much more than Rowanstar. Honestly I wish Crowfrost had lived, maybe then Rowanstar at least would have had a cat who didn’t abandon the clan in their time of need, and one that he could trust and depend on as a genuine deputy. One that might be more likely to be favored by the clan. It just sucks because there was so much potential to do part of the arc showing Rowanstar being able to right his wrongs and become a better leader, but it was all tossed away for another Tigerkin to get spotlight he never deserved. It was such a stain on AVOS, which was going so well until all the mess with Tigerheart and Dovewing and Darktail dying too early.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 11:47:43 GMT -5
When it comes to those outside their clan, I don't blame them for being cautious, but it's wild to me considering they've had very notable members that have joined from even kittpet origins who have become well respected in their ranks. Tree helped Needletail back to her clan, he didn't have to, but he did, he should have at least been able to speak with Rowanstar based on that. But instead he was just shooed away insistently by Tawnypelt, not really given a second thought. And it was obvious to Needletail that he was hurt by that, and he wanted to stay, it was Tawnypelt that assumed Clan life wasn't for him before they gave him a chance. Crowfrost could have been a great option, though I know that sadly the apprentices and clan didn’t seem to really respect him all that much more than Rowanstar. Honestly I wish Crowfrost had lived, maybe then Rowanstar at least would have had a cat who didn’t abandon the clan in their time of need, and one that he could trust and depend on as a genuine deputy. One that might be more likely to be favored by the clan. It just sucks because there was so much potential to do part of the arc showing Rowanstar being able to right his wrongs and become a better leader, but it was all tossed away for another Tigerkin to get spotlight he never deserved. It was such a stain on AVOS, which was going so well until all the mess with Tigerheart and Dovewing and Darktail dying too early. I agree, I personally would not have had an issue with Rowanstar reaching a medium with his clan and becoming a better leader. Even StarClan hadn't given up on him yet, begging for him to fight for his clan, but it's obvious that after Tigerheart abandoned him that he's lost any faith he had left, even in himself. But I think him choosing a new and better deputy, should have happened instead of him just...merging with SkyClan. Like...why??? He could have even still retired, just train the next deputy long enough then step down, but it sure as hell shouldn't have been Tigertwo. Makes me wonder if he did what he did only because the Erins wanted to leave and opportunity open for Tigertwo to become leader is all. If that's actually the case, then yikes. I liked Crowfrost, but I wasn't big on how he treated the apprentices, his on kits too, like...it was somewhat uncomfortable to see him belittle them out of annoyance or anger. But I do think he would have made an okay leader, I just wish he, like Rowan and some of the other mentors, had reached out better to the younger cats. Or have taught them better in their upbringing. Letting apprentices fight with unsheathed claws, eat prey before their clans, bad mouth others, sneaking out of camp, etc. It's ridiculous. I also wish they hadn't killed off Darktail so early, ngl I would have liked it if it was Rowanstar that iced Darktail to redeem himself from before, not some loser like Onestar just because he didn't want to pay child support. It would have been a much more fitting ending if Rowan killed Darktail to protect his clan. Heck, he can even die trying, so a different cat could become leader in his place, anyone but Tigertwo though.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 12:04:41 GMT -5
Crowfrost could have been a great option, though I know that sadly the apprentices and clan didn’t seem to really respect him all that much more than Rowanstar. Honestly I wish Crowfrost had lived, maybe then Rowanstar at least would have had a cat who didn’t abandon the clan in their time of need, and one that he could trust and depend on as a genuine deputy. One that might be more likely to be favored by the clan. It just sucks because there was so much potential to do part of the arc showing Rowanstar being able to right his wrongs and become a better leader, but it was all tossed away for another Tigerkin to get spotlight he never deserved. It was such a stain on AVOS, which was going so well until all the mess with Tigerheart and Dovewing and Darktail dying too early. I agree, I personally would not have had an issue with Rowanstar reaching a medium with his clan and becoming a better leader. Even StarClan hadn't given up on him yet, begging for him to fight for his clan, but it's obvious that after Tigerheart abandoned him that he's lost any faith he had left, even in himself. But I think him choosing a new and better deputy, should have happened instead of him just...merging with SkyClan. Like...why??? He could have even still retired, just train the next deputy long enough then step down, but it sure as hell shouldn't have been Tigertwo. Makes me wonder if he did what he did only because the Erins wanted to leave and opportunity open for Tigertwo to become leader is all. If that's actually the case, then yikes. I liked Crowfrost, but I wasn't big on how he treated the apprentices, his on kits too, like...it was somewhat uncomfortable to see him belittle them out of annoyance or anger. But I do think he would have made an okay leader, I just wish he, like Rowan and some of the other mentors, had reached out better to the younger cats. Or have taught them better in their upbringing. Letting apprentices fight with unsheathed claws, eat prey before their clans, bad mouth others, sneaking out of camp, etc. It's ridiculous. I also wish they hadn't killed off Darktail so early, ngl I would have liked it if it was Rowanstar that iced Darktail to redeem himself from before, not some loser like Onestar just because he didn't want to pay child support. It would have been a much more fitting ending if Rowan killed Darktail to protect his clan. Heck, he can even die trying, so a different cat could become leader in his place, anyone but Tigertwo though. That would have been pretty cool. Honestly, I still kind of wish that Darktail had actually been Blackstar’s son from his time spent as a rouge with Brokenstar and Tigerstar. It would have made way more sense with how Shadowclan was taken over than tossing Onestar into some kit plot like that. At least then it would have indeed set up Rowanstar actually fighting a genuine enemy of Shadowclan, and even relating it to Blackstar too. Honestly, if any cat should have gained deputyship out of all of them if Rowanstar was to die, my vote would have gone to Dawnpelt. I wish she had lived instead of Tigerheart, because at least she seemed to be doing her best to guide cats for the better. She was Violetpaw’s mentor too, right, if I recall? I dunno, either way, giving Rowanstar an opportunity to fix his mistakes and better himself would have been such a good arc for a non-Tiger or Firekin leader. It also would have made for great development too. Hm...more ideas for the re-write lmao.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 12:22:41 GMT -5
I agree, I personally would not have had an issue with Rowanstar reaching a medium with his clan and becoming a better leader. Even StarClan hadn't given up on him yet, begging for him to fight for his clan, but it's obvious that after Tigerheart abandoned him that he's lost any faith he had left, even in himself. But I think him choosing a new and better deputy, should have happened instead of him just...merging with SkyClan. Like...why??? He could have even still retired, just train the next deputy long enough then step down, but it sure as hell shouldn't have been Tigertwo. Makes me wonder if he did what he did only because the Erins wanted to leave and opportunity open for Tigertwo to become leader is all. If that's actually the case, then yikes. I liked Crowfrost, but I wasn't big on how he treated the apprentices, his on kits too, like...it was somewhat uncomfortable to see him belittle them out of annoyance or anger. But I do think he would have made an okay leader, I just wish he, like Rowan and some of the other mentors, had reached out better to the younger cats. Or have taught them better in their upbringing. Letting apprentices fight with unsheathed claws, eat prey before their clans, bad mouth others, sneaking out of camp, etc. It's ridiculous. I also wish they hadn't killed off Darktail so early, ngl I would have liked it if it was Rowanstar that iced Darktail to redeem himself from before, not some loser like Onestar just because he didn't want to pay child support. It would have been a much more fitting ending if Rowan killed Darktail to protect his clan. Heck, he can even die trying, so a different cat could become leader in his place, anyone but Tigertwo though. That would have been pretty cool. Honestly, I still kind of wish that Darktail had actually been Blackstar’s son from his time spent as a rouge with Brokenstar and Tigerstar. It would have made way more sense with how Shadowclan was taken over than tossing Onestar into some kit plot like that. At least then it would have indeed set up Rowanstar actually fighting a genuine enemy of Shadowclan, and even relating it to Blackstar too. Honestly, if any cat should have gained deputyship out of all of them if Rowanstar was to die, my vote would have gone to Dawnpelt. I wish she had lived instead of Tigerheart, because at least she seemed to be doing her best to guide cats for the better. She was Violetpaw’s mentor too, right, if I recall? I dunno, either way, giving Rowanstar an opportunity to fix his mistakes and better himself would have been such a good arc for a non-Tiger or Firekin leader. It also would have made for great development too. Hm...more ideas for the re-write lmao. I feel like I'd be fine with the Blackstar thing if it means that he had a mate while he was a rogue, then yeah I can see it. And maybe they got separated when the forest was destroyed. Smoke thinks that Blackstar abandoned them, and that's why Darktail grew up with hatred, as oppose to Onestar's flimsy excuse. And then Rowanstar facing off Darktail, angry that he'll never get revenge against his father, but he does vow to destroy everything he's worked for. Would be absolutely thrilling tbh. Also I like the idea of Dawnstar (she could symbolize a new dawn for ShadowClan's age) and Cloverfoot as her deputy, like let the she-cats run ShadowClan already, smh.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 12:40:06 GMT -5
That would have been pretty cool. Honestly, I still kind of wish that Darktail had actually been Blackstar’s son from his time spent as a rouge with Brokenstar and Tigerstar. It would have made way more sense with how Shadowclan was taken over than tossing Onestar into some kit plot like that. At least then it would have indeed set up Rowanstar actually fighting a genuine enemy of Shadowclan, and even relating it to Blackstar too. Honestly, if any cat should have gained deputyship out of all of them if Rowanstar was to die, my vote would have gone to Dawnpelt. I wish she had lived instead of Tigerheart, because at least she seemed to be doing her best to guide cats for the better. She was Violetpaw’s mentor too, right, if I recall? I dunno, either way, giving Rowanstar an opportunity to fix his mistakes and better himself would have been such a good arc for a non-Tiger or Firekin leader. It also would have made for great development too. Hm...more ideas for the re-write lmao. I feel like I'd be fine with the Blackstar thing if it means that he had a mate while he was a rogue, then yeah I can see it. And maybe they got separated when the forest was destroyed. Smoke thinks that Blackstar abandoned them, and that's why Darktail grew up with hatred, as oppose to Onestar's flimsy excuse. And then Rowanstar facing off Darktail, angry that he'll never get revenge against his father, but he does vow to destroy everything he's worked for. Would be absolutely thrilling tbh. Also I like the idea of Dawnstar (she could symbolize a new dawn for ShadowClan's age) and Cloverfoot as her deputy, like let the she-cats run ShadowClan already, smh. While I’m still gonna go with future leader Violetshine for my rewrite, Cloverfoot is still gonna be her future deputy, or even Dawnpelt, because Shadowclan does need some she-cat leadership for once and I’m gonna let Dawnpelt live because she deserved to, she and Strikestone both deserve life and I’m gonna give it to em XD
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Post by cygna on May 21, 2021 15:32:11 GMT -5
Okay I knew this thread would be controversial(or disagreeable) when I made so I was cool if people don’t feel the same as I do.
But I honestly feel like some people are being kind of rude. I also feel like my opinion was being attacked but maybe people didn’t actually mean it that way.
I just wanted to say don’t call someone’s thoughts laughable or something of the sort. People can misinterpret things as I may have and it’s a little hurtful.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 21, 2021 15:40:49 GMT -5
Okay I knew this thread would be controversial(or disagreeable) when I made so I was cool if people don’t feel the same as I do. But I honestly feel like some people are being kind of rude. I also feel like my opinion was being attacked but maybe people didn’t actually mean it that way. I just wanted to say don’t call someone’s thoughts laughable or something of the sort. People can misinterpret things as I may have and it’s a little hurtful. Rowanstar has always been a sensitive topic around here since AVoS. A lot of us are still angry about Tigerheartstar
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 21, 2021 15:43:04 GMT -5
Also, when we compare Blackstar and Rowanstar, I think it's important to remember that while Blackstar was not a tyrant leader, he likely still had fear behind him. Remember that he was both TIGERSTAR and BROKENSTAR'S deputy. And Blackstar had killed without mercy as Blackfoot. In many ways, he was still a fearful cat and he was still willing to put cats down as seen with Redwillow
I don't think Rowanstar could have ever filled his paws because he's...honestly not a scary cat.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 21, 2021 18:19:59 GMT -5
This makes me think of other cats who were taken by birds of prey. Snowkit and Bright Stream were basically treated as death sentences. Once they were taken, the cats who cared about them assumed they were goners. Bright Stream was literally pregnant and they still assumed she was dead. They genuinely believed Needletail was gone. It’s a low possibility that a cat can survive from that. This, and not to mention both Ambermoon and Tigerheart, full grown Warriors, were killed by large birds and they were much stronger, faster and more equipped to survive an attack. Needlepaw, a young apprentice on her first day of training would be a very understandable assumption of a death sentence. Yes, it was a traumatic experience, but in the same way Thunderclan couldn’t afford to spend more time and resources on searching after Dovewing when she left, I don’t blame Shadowclan for assuming she was absolutely going to be dead and not sending patrols out to search for bird prey. Even then, the intent was still never malicious either. Shadowclan doesn’t deserve what Needletail brought to them simply for thinking the obvious. I could be wrong, but wasn't it that in RS when Brackenfur goes after Snowkit, everyone else around them are agreeing that was pointless?
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