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Post by cygna on May 20, 2021 21:09:36 GMT -5
I know some of them are bad/did bad things but Rowanstar was partially to blame for that.
two cats that have evidence of being treated badly are Violetshine & Needletail but since all the apprentices were miserable enough to ditch ShadowClan it’s safe to say they probably had it tough too.
Violetshine:
Easily Rowanstar’s biggest victim, He:
- Separated this cat from her littermate - Forsed a queen who wanted to leave the nursery desperately to take care of her which in turn made Grassheart resent her - so many more things I can’t think of off the top of my head
Needletail:
The character whose choices are almost entirely shaped by the neglect of ShadowClan:
- Is carried away by a hawk as an apprentice, no one looks for her - Her MENTOR TAWNYPELT just assumes she’s dead - They sure don’t mind using her existence to steal a kit away from her sister though - Also a bunch of other things I can’t think of off my head
So many people hate Needletail, I can understand why she would be hard to like. But don’t forget she was a Victim.
Do you agree? It’s perfectly okay if you don’t just say your opinion on the matter.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 20, 2021 21:33:03 GMT -5
not really. like yeah they were shaped by their environment to a degree, but i don't know if i'd call them "victims", nor would i say rowanstar deserved to die for it
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Post by Moonblazer on May 20, 2021 21:46:56 GMT -5
I don’t agree with a single thing you said. Considering there would honestly be no reason to think a cat literally carried off into the sky by a hawk wouldn’t be dead or eaten, and considering that Tawnypelt and Shadowclan genuinely thought she had died, I give them a full pass for it. Shadowclan didn’t purposefully abandon her, and even so, she’s not a “victim” and she abused Violetshine more than any other cat in the clan. Certainly faaaar more than Rowanstar.
The only somewhat credible thing here is Violetshine not having the best time growing up, but honestly it wasn’t like Pinenose was tossing her around like trash or treating her like Brokenstar’s foster mother. Was she overly loving and equal in the love she had for Violet and her biological kits? Probably not. But she is a victim. Of Needletail. That’s who she was a victim of.
No. Rowanstar does not deserve to die for this. He’s not some evil monster, considering he died protecting kits he actually cared about, unlike a certain someone who acted like she cared about Violetshine but really never seemed to beyond her personal plaything and object.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on May 20, 2021 22:00:58 GMT -5
Only thing I agree with is Violetshine...which was also part of Needletail's doing because she made a big scene at the gathering. Rowanstar only had one choice.
No. Rowan did not deserve to die, and no, Needletail was not a victim. Needletail brought 99% of what befell her on herself. Tawnypelt also didn't do anything wrong by genuinely thinking Needle had died. I'm with Moonblazer on this.
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Post by kitters on May 20, 2021 22:08:00 GMT -5
what he did to Violetshine was disgusting. HE tossed her out like trash after everything he did to get her. as for Sleek and the others, I'm not sure. I think they had some valid complaints about being disrespected but they were all pretty bratty and hard to manage which is their fault and no one elses.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 20, 2021 22:12:29 GMT -5
It is so unfair to judge Shadowclan for thinking Needletail was dead after a hawk picked her up. If you've ever seen a bird of prey hunt, if it's large enough to pick up a prey animal and dig its talons into it, that's a death warrant. Their talons will have forced their way into the prey's vital organs, half-strangled it, and it'll soon be eaten alive in the bird's nest. Trying to go looking for Needletail would be to look for discarded entrails and bones that the bird leaves behind. Shadowclan had every reason to think she was dead as a doorknob, to act as though it was neglect has no basis at all.
Needletail, on the contrary, was not oppressed, she was spoiled. She was not punished for her misdeeds, just like the other Shadowclan apprentices, and that led to her becoming entitled and mean. It is a fault in Shadowclan, and it may even reflect on Rowanstar's leadership too, but this is not a morally malicious cat. The Shadowclan apprentices made their own choices to follow a tyrannical despot, knowing full well the kind of monster he was. At some point, they have to take responsibility and it stops being Rowanstar's.
Violetshine was ugly, there is little defense in that, but Needletail incited it to begin with.
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Post by Hollyfall on May 20, 2021 22:26:39 GMT -5
Violetshine is really the only victim here. Not of Rowanstar, but of Needletail. Violetshine didn't have the best of childhoods, no denying, but Needletail was still the one who guilted, manipulated, and used her.
Also, how is Needletail a victim? She brought everything on herself by being the spoiled brat she was. The actions Rowanstar took in regards to her rebellion essentially enabled her behavior but she and the other apprentices still made their own choices, which includes following a tyrant who was a worse leader than Rowanstar was. Needletail's only got herself to blame here. They also didn't "neglect" her, they literally assumed she was dead. As Vectoring pointed out, once a hawk has a cat, you're as good as dead and ShadowClan had valid reason to assume Needletail had died.
Rowanstar might not have been that stellar of a leader but I really don't think that means he should die for it. Sure, he could have handled things better but how does that equate to warranting death? He literally died believing he had failed his Clan and trying to protect the kits of a cat who had left the Clan.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 20, 2021 22:37:36 GMT -5
Pinenose, not Grassheart. And I really think calling them victims is a bit of a stretch. Entitled, sure, but not sure about them being victims. And this is coming from someone who loves Needletail. The only one I can actually say was a victim was Violetshine.
And like I've been saying, it's actually pretty likely that the resentment started all the way back in Bramblestar's Storm, which was when Rowanstar became leader. During this time, Blackstar was already old and tired and then died in a flood not long after, and Rowanstar was thrust into leadership during a time of crisis and he ended up struggling. ThunderClan ended up bailing him out twice, and the only reason Bramblestar even knew about ShadowClan being in trouble at all was because Tawnypelt told him. Tawnypelt, who is Rowanstar's mate.
Surely there was a reason why Rowanstar was seen as weak by the time AVoS takes place, and not just by the apprentices either. Assuming their resentment really did start after BrS, it's also safe to assume these negative feelings were passed onto the latest generation of apprentices. We already know from TAQ that their mentors would often gossip in front of them while TaS treats fighting over prey (with unsheathed claws, no less) as something completely normal. Never mind that the elders would tell them about ShadowClan being feared at one point, something alot of cats already equate with strength. Snowbird also told her kits that ShadowClan cats could say whatever they liked and a few of the older cats even ended up agreeing with the apprentices while they were calling Rowanstar out, and it also appears that at least from a certain PoV, the older cats often viewed the apprentices as nuisances (of course, it's not like the apprentices themselves were helping, either).
With all this in mind, it's really no wonder why things ended up as badly as they did, but Rowanstar most certainly didn't deserve to die for it.
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Post by kitters on May 20, 2021 22:53:10 GMT -5
um I would argue that Violetshine definitely is a victim of Rowanstar though. He didn't do anything to care for her after separating her from her sister, he just dumped her on Pinenose and didn't do anything about her being isolated and clearly suffering in the nursery. Not to mention he just let the Littlecloud situation get so bad somehow? but that's another topic. When Needletail leaves and takes Violet with her, Rowanstar then does this: trash.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 20, 2021 23:22:49 GMT -5
um I would argue that Violetshine definitely is a victim of Rowanstar though. He didn't do anything to care for her after separating her from her sister, he just dumped her on Pinenose and didn't do anything about her being isolated and clearly suffering in the nursery. Not to mention he just let the Littlecloud situation get so bad somehow? but that's another topic. When Needletail leaves and takes Violet with her, Rowanstar then does this: trash. rowanstar dismissing violetshine does not make her a victim of him.
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Post by cygna on May 20, 2021 23:30:15 GMT -5
I’m going to remove the part that I said Rowanstar deserved his death. I actually forgot everything that happened to him until them. I guess what I should say instead was he wasn’t great so I didn’t feel too bad about his death. I actually realized he already paid for his mistakes. His clan was destroyed, and everyone blamed him for it. He even gave up the star part of his name so I regret saying that earlier.
I still think Needletail was a victim of her environment though, at least to an extent. She felt like her clan didn’t care about her so I see why she left them.
The other apprentices I’m rethinking on. Some of them like Sleekwhisker & Juniperclaw we’re indeed brats.
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Post by kitters on May 20, 2021 23:39:16 GMT -5
um I would argue that Violetshine definitely is a victim of Rowanstar though. He didn't do anything to care for her after separating her from her sister, he just dumped her on Pinenose and didn't do anything about her being isolated and clearly suffering in the nursery. Not to mention he just let the Littlecloud situation get so bad somehow? but that's another topic. When Needletail leaves and takes Violet with her, Rowanstar then does this: trash. rowanstar dismissing violetshine does not make her a victim of him. uhhhh it was so much more than that tho.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 20, 2021 23:47:30 GMT -5
I’m going to remove the part that I said Rowanstar deserved his death. I actually forgot everything that happened to him until them. I guess what I should say instead was he wasn’t great so I didn’t feel too bad about his death. I actually realized he already paid for his mistakes. His clan was destroyed, and everyone blamed him for it. He even gave up the star part of his name so I regret saying that earlier. I still think Needletail was a victim of her environment though, at least to an extent. She felt like her clan didn’t care about her so I see why she left them. The other apprentices I’m rethinking on. Some of them like Sleekwhisker & Juniperclaw we’re indeed brats. She felt like that based off the assumption that they should think she survived being snatched up by a raptor. Which is a very weak basis.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 21, 2021 0:02:19 GMT -5
It is so unfair to judge Shadowclan for thinking Needletail was dead after a hawk picked her up. It was actually an owl, not a hawk. She and Tawnypelt were night hunting for the first time when it grabbed her. I also feel like when people criticize ShadowClan for not at least trying to find her, they're at least subconsciously comparing it to when Snowkit or Marshkit were taken by birds of prey (or nearly taken in Marshkit's case) and how cats like Brackenfur did their best to find Snowkit after a hawk flew off with him and actually stopped the eagle from taking Marshkit.
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Post by vectoring34 on May 21, 2021 0:13:35 GMT -5
It is so unfair to judge Shadowclan for thinking Needletail was dead after a hawk picked her up. It was actually an owl, not a hawk. She and Tawnypelt were night hunting for the first time when it grabbed her. I also feel like when people criticize ShadowClan for not at least trying to find her, they're at least subconsciously comparing it to when Snowkit or Marshkit were taken by birds of prey (or nearly taken in Marshkit's case) and how cats like Brackenfur did their best to find Snowkit after a hawk flew off with him and actually stopped the eagle from taking Marshkit. I had a feeling in the back of my mind it was an owl but the OP said hawk and I didn't care to check. You're right, my bad. Well with Marshkit the bird was still close enough to Brackenfur for him to jump on top of the eagle. That's a very different matter from a bird which had already gotten out of jumping reach.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 21, 2021 0:28:45 GMT -5
Really, even if Needletail was a victim, this still doesn't really mean much since she was still in charge of her own actions. Someone being a product of their environment really only excuses so much and she clearly knew what Darktail was capable of.
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Post by Aqua on May 21, 2021 1:12:37 GMT -5
um I would argue that Violetshine definitely is a victim of Rowanstar though. He didn't do anything to care for her after separating her from her sister, he just dumped her on Pinenose and didn't do anything about her being isolated and clearly suffering in the nursery. Not to mention he just let the Littlecloud situation get so bad somehow? but that's another topic. When Needletail leaves and takes Violet with her, Rowanstar then does this: trash. I am so glad more people are calling him out for the Littlecloud situation. Littlecloud was a medicine cat who worked his ass off in his clan, and Rowanstar, from what I remember, didn't bother doing very much for him. Little ended up dying a mess in ShadowClan, and it makes me wonder how he felt while he watched all of this in StarClan. It also pisses me off how he thought it was enough time for Leafpool to train her apprentice in two moons and she warned him it wasn't. I'm really glad Leafpool called him out and stood up to Rowanstar and his stupidity when he deserved it tbh.
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Post by Brindlefern on May 21, 2021 1:50:43 GMT -5
I don't agree with any of this. If Violetshine was a victim of anything, and she is, it's of being abused by Needletail. That is it. Note that I will always find her being seperated from her sister at a young age terrible, but I'm not gonna super condemn Rowanstar for that, especially not saying he deserves to die for it? Wtf. Needletail is not a victim of her own bullshit. Also her being carried off by an owl and Shadowclan not looking for her? Why is it not reasonable for them to have assumed she was dead on arrival of that? I don't get why this is always used against Shadowclan when it came to her.
It's likely not even that they didn't care, it's usually that instances of cats getting carried off by birds of prey usually ended in death in some way. Snowkit, Marshkit but he got lucky, Even with Tigerheart's BS revival, he still before that technically initially died from getting carried off and dropped at a fatal height, did another cat get killed by a bird of prey? I think it was Honeyfur? Yeah. EDIT: It was Ambermoon derp. Also adding Bright Stream, because she's also a full grown cat AND not to mention was pregnant and they assumed she was a goner. One of the more harrowing cases.
If they went looking for her how are they supposed to be sure they're looking for a CAT and not just a body?
Anyways, Needletail isn't a victim, it's laughable to even call her that. Especially for stuff outside Rowanstar and Shadowclan's control i.e said owl attack and based on experience assuming she's dead from it. She's a product of her environment as much as Violet sure, but the thing with Needletail is she chose how she lived in said environment unlike Violet.
Also the apprentices only rebelled because he was a "weak" leader aka not a tyrant like almost everyone else that led them excluding Blackstar. We never actually see Sleekwhisker for instance being truly miserable, and the whole thing is still laughable when she pulled that as her reason to go on a murder mindrush against the clan.
Violetshine is a victim, but not of Rowanstar, but of Needletail. Needletail was never a victim.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on May 21, 2021 2:00:57 GMT -5
I think it was Honeyfur? Yeah. Oh, I think you mean Ambermoon! And yeah, I feel like another problem is that people don't realize how big and dangerous an owl can actually be, so something like a cat being killed by one makes it kinda hard to to wrap your head around. It's different with raptors since they're almost always depicted as these giant creatures, if that makes sense.
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Post by kitters on May 21, 2021 2:19:11 GMT -5
Note that I will always find her being seperated from her sister at a young age abhorrently traumatizing, but I'm not gonna super condemn Rowanstar for that, especially not saying he deserves to die for it? Violetshine is a victim, but not of Rowanstar, but of Needletail. Needletail was never a victim. ??? How are y'all looking at this cat "abhorrently traumatizing" a two month old KIT and then neglecting her and saying she's not a victim? Rowanstar is probably the most to blame for that entire situation. Needlepaw was an apprentice, be didn't have to listen to her. He should have let it go.
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Post by Brindlefern on May 21, 2021 3:13:30 GMT -5
Note that I will always find her being seperated from her sister at a young age abhorrently traumatizing, but I'm not gonna super condemn Rowanstar for that, especially not saying he deserves to die for it? Violetshine is a victim, but not of Rowanstar, but of Needletail. Needletail was never a victim. ??? How are y'all looking at this cat "abhorrently traumatizing" a two month old KIT and then neglecting her and saying she's not a victim? Rowanstar is probably the most to blame for that entire situation. Needlepaw was an apprentice, be didn't have to listen to her. He should have let it go. I didn't even say Violetshine wasn't a victim in general, did you not read when I said that she was? >.> I'm gonna fricking edit that so that my words aren't used against me again, jesus.
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Post by ✲ριкαƒυєу✲ on May 21, 2021 3:33:38 GMT -5
??? How are y'all looking at this cat "abhorrently traumatizing" a two month old KIT and then neglecting her and saying she's not a victim? Rowanstar is probably the most to blame for that entire situation. Needlepaw was an apprentice, be didn't have to listen to her. He should have let it go. I didn't even say Violetshine wasn't a victim in general, did you not read when I said that she was? >.> I'm gonna fricking edit that so that my words aren't used against me again, jesus.Easy there. I don't think they were attacking you, but really just saying what everyone has been saying. And you happened to be quoted. I also think they were saying not a victim, as is relation to Rowanstar
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Post by kitters on May 21, 2021 3:43:45 GMT -5
??? How are y'all looking at this cat "abhorrently traumatizing" a two month old KIT and then neglecting her and saying she's not a victim? Rowanstar is probably the most to blame for that entire situation. Needlepaw was an apprentice, be didn't have to listen to her. He should have let it go. I didn't even say Violetshine wasn't a victim in general, did you not read when I said that she was? >.> I'm gonna fricking edit that so that my words aren't used against me again, jesus. you and everyone else have been saying she's not rowanstar's victim. That is my point. Imo it's really hard for me to see how anyone could come to the conclusion that she wasn't victimized by Rowanstar when he is the root cause of a lot of her trauma.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 6:14:45 GMT -5
I didn't even say Violetshine wasn't a victim in general, did you not read when I said that she was? >.> I'm gonna fricking edit that so that my words aren't used against me again, jesus. you and everyone else have been saying she's not rowanstar's victim. That is my point. Imo it's really hard for me to see how anyone could come to the conclusion that she wasn't victimized by Rowanstar when he is the root cause of a lot of her trauma. I mean if we want to be honest, Needletail is the root cause. Needetail made a big deal at the gathering that she found Violetkit with Alderheart and therefore deserved to keep her in Shadowclan, which in turn forced Rowanstar’s paw lest his clan get all up in arms for letting Thunderclan walk all over them and keep important kits, because they have shown that they clearly do not want Thunderclan having any leg to stand on. Needletail was also the one to sneak Violetkit out to meet with murderous rouges and steal her from the nursery to do so, to which Rowanstar orders Pinenose to keep Violetkit in the nursery and watch over her closer. Then, Needletail is also the one manipulating her and guilt tripping her to always support her crappy actions and choices. The root of Violetshine’s trauma honestly moreso comes from Needletail.
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Post by Rainsplash on May 21, 2021 6:29:41 GMT -5
Violetshine was a victim, but not by Rowanstar. I mean, yes, Rowanstar insisted ShadowClan keep her, but Needlepaw brought the whole thing up and said she had the right to keep Violetkit with her. Needletail victimized Violetshine, and not Rowanstar.
I don't agree about Needletail, either. I understand her situation was bad, but that doesn't excuse her actions and she certainly wasn't victimized. What they did for Snowkit when he was carried off was a one of a kind thing, and everyone was dumbfounded when Fireheart ordered them too, so I kind of excuse them for not looking for Needlepaw when she was carried off.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on May 21, 2021 7:06:14 GMT -5
In my opinion, I think what's being looked over here is the position these cats are in. Rowanstar is a leader. He is responsible for his cats in his clans, from kits, to apprentices, warriors to elders, queens, and so on. And at the end of the day, he gets the last choice when it comes to clan business and situations. Even if Tawnypelt thought the owl had killed Needletail, it doesn't change the fact that they didn't even consider fact this possibility. Quite literally it's like the equivalent of a child being kidnapped off the street, rescued by a stranger, returning home and only to find out that her clan, or family, had immediately given up on her. This situation on it's own traumatized Needletail, not just almost dying, finding out that he clan seemed to move on from her so quickly. Not a single patrol was sent out to search for her just in case she fell, in comparison one was sent out for Snowkit at such a possibility. Just Snowkit wasn't as lucky. Then despite another cat doing their job for them, a loner at that, they discriminated against him like an outsider and quickly tried to shoo him off. They quickly insisted that Tree wouldn't fit in, and wanted him gone just as fast as he showed up, and he was hurt by this. In Needletail's head, he was more kind to her than her own clanmates ever were, and even her own leader. So it's no wonder she becomes angry at Rowanstar, and the discriminating behavior Clan cats have toward outsiders later on. Rowanstar was an awful adult figure, and leader, imo when it came to how he handled the apprentices and younger characters. They were troubled youth who were miserable, they felt they were only another number in the clan and weren't treated with respect. The warriors just treated them like they were stupid, even Rowan just thought they were just rebellious brats and they were fully to blame for everything, instead of him acknowledging his own faults as a leader. He treated Violetshine just like the rest of them, if not worse, because she was supposedly part of the prophecy, treating her like a tool for ShadowClan so they'd bring them glory. Needletail may have been the one to tell him about Violet and Twig, but at the time she was an apprentice. At the end of the day HE is the one that insisted on having one of the kits, he could have easily just denied Needletail but he didn't. Because he wanted that ol so sweet glory and vindication that ShadowClan deserved, even if it meant traumatizing kits and separating them from the only real family they had left. Rowanstar did NOTHING to make Violetshine feel like she belonged in ShaodowClan, which is why she clung to Needletail in the first place. He gave her a crappy foster mother like Pinenose that neglects her to the point she could be snuck out of camp. He talks down on the ones that Violeshine considered friends and isolates her so they couldn't see each other. And then when the rebellion happens he tosses her out, not even caring one bit about where she stayed because he was too prideful to care. It's as the apprentices said at the start, there were so many of them that he doesn't know what to do with them. I mean, the dude picked a random kit to be the next medicine cat and didn't bother to care about how they personally felt about the situation. Puddleshine was put under ridiculous amounts of pressure, with rushed training, and had to deal with so much death thanks to sickness later on, it's ridiculous. Rowanstar was a horrible leader that didn't know how to keep his own cats in line, and he doesn't know how to actually deal with and approach troubled youth or give a damn about how they feel. He could have handled Needletail, Violetshine, Puddleshine, and the other apprentices situation way better but he didn't. Instead he just thinks that the younger cats are dumb, and ignores them, and even turns deaf ears to his own warriors, while letting everything get out of hand. How does he expect cats to respect him when he doesn't even respect his own clan members? As a leader he had a responsibility to take care of his clan and he didn't, his priorities were horrible, and by the end of it it caused his clan to fall apart. His neglect, passiveness, and inability to enforce proper authority almost caused ShadowClan to cease into existences, while later rejecting the last opportunity to save his clan and making it right. Condemning everyone, his family, his clan, and the victims of Darktail, to just rot and cease into extinction. Not everything should be solely blamed on Rowanstar, but as a leader, he is the on that fostered these unfit environments that eventually led to cats losing faith in him, gossiping, and eventually breaking everyone's trusts in him. The youth of his clan felt unloved, and uninspired because of him, while he himself was incompetent and irresponsible.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 7:25:51 GMT -5
These poor little apprentices, how miserable they must be for not having Shadowclan feared by the other clans! What suffering they must have gone through when the Warriors didn’t like them breaking codes and acting like idiots. You want to know what these apprentices wanted? To literally bring fear and decimation to the other clans and to not have to do their chores. I’m still trying to find in what way these apprentices suffered soooo much that they chose to help murderous rouges slaughter their clanmates and abuse their Queens and Elders. Because I’m sorry, their age is not an excuse for what was blatantly in front of their eyes. What kind of respect are they looking for? To be respected for wanting to start wars? To be respected for bringing whoever they feel like back to camp? To be respected for not wanting to listen to rules during an actually relatively peaceful time in the clans? These apprentices are not victims in the slightest. They still need to be responsible and held accountable for their own choices and actions, and they literally say in the books that they want Shadowclan to be feared amongst the clans. What a terrible leader Rowanstar is for not starting wars because his bratty apprentices demanded him too lol.
At the end of the day, at least Rowanstar admitted his faults and died for them protecting kits of a cat who betrayed him, wheras nobody else seemed to ever take responsibility for their own actions. It’s frustrating as hell.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on May 21, 2021 8:24:46 GMT -5
Even if Tawnypelt thought the owl had killed Needletail, it doesn't change the fact that they didn't even consider fact this possibility. Quite literally it's like the equivalent of a child being kidnapped off the street, rescued by a stranger, returning home and only to find out that her clan, or family, had immediately given up on her. I understand what you are saying, but I cannot agree with this comparison at all. Kids who are kidnapped are often take alive for a reason, i.e. kept that way at least for awhile (usually for trafficking). Loads of kidnapped children are found alive. Contrastingly, a small animal taken by a raptor (owl in this case) is almost certainly a death sentence. Sure there's a teeny tiny chance they miraculously survive, but it's negligible. It would be a nice gesture for someone to go looking for Needletail, but not required by any means to prove that they care about her.
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Post by Mothdapple on May 21, 2021 8:40:18 GMT -5
Even if Tawnypelt thought the owl had killed Needletail, it doesn't change the fact that they didn't even consider fact this possibility. Quite literally it's like the equivalent of a child being kidnapped off the street, rescued by a stranger, returning home and only to find out that her clan, or family, had immediately given up on her. I understand what you are saying, but I cannot agree with this comparison at all. Kids who are kidnapped are often take alive for a reason, i.e. kept that way at least for awhile (usually for trafficking). Loads of kidnapped children are found alive. Contrastingly, a small animal taken by a raptor (owl in this case) is almost certainly a death sentence. Sure there's a teeny tiny chance they miraculously survive, but it's negligible. It would be a nice gesture for someone to go looking for Needletail, but not required by any means to prove that they care about her. This makes me think of other cats who were taken by birds of prey. Snowkit and Bright Stream were basically treated as death sentences. Once they were taken, the cats who cared about them assumed they were goners. Bright Stream was literally pregnant and they still assumed she was dead. They genuinely believed Needletail was gone. It’s a low possibility that a cat can survive from that.
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Post by Moonblazer on May 21, 2021 9:11:58 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying, but I cannot agree with this comparison at all. Kids who are kidnapped are often take alive for a reason, i.e. kept that way at least for awhile (usually for trafficking). Loads of kidnapped children are found alive. Contrastingly, a small animal taken by a raptor (owl in this case) is almost certainly a death sentence. Sure there's a teeny tiny chance they miraculously survive, but it's negligible. It would be a nice gesture for someone to go looking for Needletail, but not required by any means to prove that they care about her. This makes me think of other cats who were taken by birds of prey. Snowkit and Bright Stream were basically treated as death sentences. Once they were taken, the cats who cared about them assumed they were goners. Bright Stream was literally pregnant and they still assumed she was dead. They genuinely believed Needletail was gone. It’s a low possibility that a cat can survive from that. This, and not to mention both Ambermoon and Tigerheart, full grown Warriors, were killed by large birds and they were much stronger, faster and more equipped to survive an attack. Needlepaw, a young apprentice on her first day of training would be a very understandable assumption of a death sentence. Yes, it was a traumatic experience, but in the same way Thunderclan couldn’t afford to spend more time and resources on searching after Dovewing when she left, I don’t blame Shadowclan for assuming she was absolutely going to be dead and not sending patrols out to search for bird prey. Even then, the intent was still never malicious either. Shadowclan doesn’t deserve what Needletail brought to them simply for thinking the obvious.
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