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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 17, 2021 6:11:14 GMT -5
Needletail made me very uncomfortable in the books. She was a terrible friend to Violetshine, and her "redemption" was awful. All the ShadowClan apprentices from AVoS were insufferable. The apprentices and Scorchfur Don't get me started on Scorchfur. I like his relationship with Snowbird, but he's very annoying too.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 17, 2021 6:46:07 GMT -5
Well that’s the issue. Many of the adult warriors in Shadowclan also wanted to cause fear and be seen as an aggressive, fear-mongering clan. Many of the Warriors absolutely are also at fault for all of this, I agree with that statement and always have. Though honestly I can’t fault Shadowclan for not spending resources searching for a cat that looked dead taken away by a bird. The chances of that cat living are so low in general. Do I understand why it makes Needletail bitter? Yes. Do I think anyone deserves to be hurt or punished for it in retaliation? Absolutely not. A massive issue I can see is that the apprentices clearly want to fight the other clans. The elders clearly want to be feared again. Rowanstar isn’t wrong. Why fight the other clans and start wars when Shadowclan can find prey and enjoy peace instead?
I completely agree that the mentors should have done more to punish their apprentices, but alot of the times when they tried, it still didn’t work. I honestly can’t see anything besides physical harm working to get them in line and there was no way anyone was going to do that. It took cats being starved, tortured and killed for them to shape up and like. Genuinely care about other cats besides themselves and that shouldn’t of had to have been the case had a certain someone not led the entire group of cats who very clearly murdered Skyclan cats in front of them.
My issue with Needletail. I completely agree that everyone played a part in Shadowclan’s downfall. I just really hate that the books made it clear that she feels she has 0 blame in anything even after she supposedly realizes that “wow, maybe leading murderous rouges to Shadowclan with the sole intent of letting us be seen as bloodthirsty, elder-abusing, cat-killing rouges wasn’t the best idea, also maybe I shouldn’t horribly and psychologically and emotionally and mentally and even sometimes physically abuse this younger cat but only because my boyfriend is dead and now the only cat I have left is the one I’ve gaslighted to be on my side.” Then she dies “heroically” for that very same cat she abused. That...really isn’t a heroic action to me. She put a band-aid over a gaping wound she opened over and over again and thinks that is resolution. It’s not. She can hate Rowanstar all she likes, I don’t care much about that, but blaming the entire thing on him? Please, holy crap, shut her up, she’s gaslighting out her ass again. It’s entirely inconsistent writing because all her supposed development meant nothing. She’s still the same trash cat she was before she decided to help fix the mess she helped start.
Even forgetting everything else besides just Needletail herself, she’s in that gross trope I hate of “Well since I was hurt in the past, it’s okay for me to hurt other people.” and for me personally, it’s not complex or interesting. It’s gross and uncomfortable that other characters suffer because one character is bitter. There’s no complexity for me about a cat who only changed her mind because her boyfriend is dead, and suddenly she stops abusing cats? Which, she technically doesn’t. And then, all the Grade D- development she got while alive goes right down the drain when she’s in Starclan touting the entire blame on one cat as if she didn’t contribute a massive part of the issue herself. That’s my big issue here.
And this is just my personal opinion. Just mine, I’m not saying nobody can enjoy Needletail’s character, do what makes you happy. It’s just why I can never personally like her or sympathize with her, because gaslighting and abusing a kit is a line that’s crossed that destroys all chances of me sympathizing with a character, and even then Needletail’s past really isn’t all that much to garner sympathy from me. Sorry the clan didn’t send 15 search parties after you after genuinely thinking you were dead and were going to be eaten by a bird that can fly miles away. Doesn’t give you credence to lead murderous rouges to the clan and support them only up until your boyfriend dies. Like, are you surprised that the cats who killed Skyclan cats in front of you just killed your lover for trying to usurp them? Even if you’re young, you’d think you’d have a shred of awareness for the kinds of cats you brought back home. Violetshine deserved so much better than what Needletail did to her, and man I wish Needlepaw today had a different name...
Needletail isn’t evil. She wasn’t an evil cat making decisions. She was indeed a young and impressionable teen making stupid decisions. But a good cat making bad decisions?...I don’t think she was all that good of a cat, honestly. Maybe if she had gotten better consistency I would say so, but nothing justifies abuse of another individual at that level and she was never called out on her actions towards Violetshine. That’s my personal issue with her character.
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Post by halogen on Apr 17, 2021 12:07:33 GMT -5
Honestly I think the whole obsession with perfect redemption arcs and best redemption arcs and are they fully redeemed or not is toxic and destructive to the ability to write complex character arcs with twists and turns that, yes, might involve a character regretting their actions and trying to do better. I kinda blame Avatar, tbh, much as I loved the show (and still do). When it comes to media in general, I feel like it set the standards for redemption arcs too high. Everyone wants to write the next Zuko, but either the execution comes out rushed or the character must completely regret their actions in order to be considered redeemed. But with characters like Needletail, sometimes it's alot more complicated than that (it's part of why I love Skystar as well). Like I said in my post, it seems like she regrets joining Darktail, but clearly has no regrets going up against Rowanstar at all if her comment in RoF is anything to go by. Needletail never really seemed like the type of character who cared about what other cats thought of her with the exception of Rain and Violetshine. She redeemed herself in her "sister's" eyes, and even then, it seems like Violetshine's feelings towards her have become complicated the more time has passed. Yeah, what I'm getting at is why is it assumed that every character who regrets their actions in any way is "trying to be the next Zuko" and failing at that, rather than trying to do something completely different that works for that character and succeeding at that? There's just this assumption that there's only one way to write any vaguely similar character, and everything different must be a failed attempt to be that and thus bad writing. There's nothing inherently "better" about a character that regrets all of their actions and completely atones vs. a character that regrets some of them and is more complicated than that, unless you are assuming the latter was by accident when the authors were really going for the former, which I feel gets assumed all the time without evidence.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 17, 2021 14:00:23 GMT -5
I kinda blame Avatar, tbh, much as I loved the show (and still do). When it comes to media in general, I feel like it set the standards for redemption arcs too high. Everyone wants to write the next Zuko, but either the execution comes out rushed or the character must completely regret their actions in order to be considered redeemed. But with characters like Needletail, sometimes it's alot more complicated than that (it's part of why I love Skystar as well). Like I said in my post, it seems like she regrets joining Darktail, but clearly has no regrets going up against Rowanstar at all if her comment in RoF is anything to go by. Needletail never really seemed like the type of character who cared about what other cats thought of her with the exception of Rain and Violetshine. She redeemed herself in her "sister's" eyes, and even then, it seems like Violetshine's feelings towards her have become complicated the more time has passed. Yeah, what I'm getting at is why is it assumed that every character who regrets their actions in any way is "trying to be the next Zuko" and failing at that, rather than trying to do something completely different that works for that character and succeeding at that? There's just this assumption that there's only one way to write any vaguely similar character, and everything different must be a failed attempt to be that and thus bad writing. There's nothing inherently "better" about a character that regrets all of their actions and completely atones vs. a character that regrets some of them and is more complicated than that, unless you are assuming the latter was by accident when the authors were really going for the former, which I feel gets assumed all the time without evidence. The Zuko thing isn't meant to be literal, my point was more that I feel like alot of people have a certain expectation when it comes to redemption arcs that they end up getting disappointed if it doesn't meet a certain standard (of course, this goes for anything in general). I just brought up the show since it's the most influential, but at least in my experience, I actually have known people to get disappointed precisely because it's not similar to Zuko's or the character isn't at least good all the time after getting redeemed even though things are usually alot more complex than that, or the writer ends up trying too hard because they really are trying to write the next Zuko, but it's to the point where the execution ends up coming off as messy.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 17, 2021 15:41:26 GMT -5
Well that’s the issue. Many of the adult warriors in Shadowclan also wanted to cause fear and be seen as an aggressive, fear-mongering clan. Many of the Warriors absolutely are also at fault for all of this, I agree with that statement and always have. Though honestly I can’t fault Shadowclan for not spending resources searching for a cat that looked dead taken away by a bird. The chances of that cat living are so low in general. Do I understand why it makes Needletail bitter? Yes. Do I think anyone deserves to be hurt or punished for it in retaliation? Absolutely not. A massive issue I can see is that the apprentices clearly want to fight the other clans. The elders clearly want to be feared again. Rowanstar isn’t wrong. Why fight the other clans and start wars when Shadowclan can find prey and enjoy peace instead? I completely agree that the mentors should have done more to punish their apprentices, but alot of the times when they tried, it still didn’t work. I honestly can’t see anything besides physical harm working to get them in line and there was no way anyone was going to do that. It took cats being starved, tortured and killed for them to shape up and like. Genuinely care about other cats besides themselves and that shouldn’t of had to have been the case had a certain someone not led the entire group of cats who very clearly murdered Skyclan cats in front of them. My issue with Needletail. I completely agree that everyone played a part in Shadowclan’s downfall. I just really hate that the books made it clear that she feels she has 0 blame in anything even after she supposedly realizes that “wow, maybe leading murderous rouges to Shadowclan with the sole intent of letting us be seen as bloodthirsty, elder-abusing, cat-killing rouges wasn’t the best idea, also maybe I shouldn’t horribly and psychologically and emotionally and mentally and even sometimes physically abuse this younger cat but only because my boyfriend is dead and now the only cat I have left is the one I’ve gaslighted to be on my side.” Then she dies “heroically” for that very same cat she abused. That...really isn’t a heroic action to me. She put a band-aid over a gaping wound she opened over and over again and thinks that is resolution. It’s not. She can hate Rowanstar all she likes, I don’t care much about that, but blaming the entire thing on him? Please, holy crap, shut her up, she’s gaslighting out her ass again. It’s entirely inconsistent writing because all her supposed development meant nothing. She’s still the same trash cat she was before she decided to help fix the mess she helped start. Even forgetting everything else besides just Needletail herself, she’s in that gross trope I hate of “Well since I was hurt in the past, it’s okay for me to hurt other people.” and for me personally, it’s not complex or interesting. It’s gross and uncomfortable that other characters suffer because one character is bitter. There’s no complexity for me about a cat who only changed her mind because her boyfriend is dead, and suddenly she stops abusing cats? Which, she technically doesn’t. And then, all the Grade D- development she got while alive goes right down the drain when she’s in Starclan touting the entire blame on one cat as if she didn’t contribute a massive part of the issue herself. That’s my big issue here. And this is just my personal opinion. Just mine, I’m not saying nobody can enjoy Needletail’s character, do what makes you happy. It’s just why I can never personally like her or sympathize with her, because gaslighting and abusing a kit is a line that’s crossed that destroys all chances of me sympathizing with a character, and even then Needletail’s past really isn’t all that much to garner sympathy from me. Sorry the clan didn’t send 15 search parties after you after genuinely thinking you were dead and were going to be eaten by a bird that can fly miles away. Doesn’t give you credence to lead murderous rouges to the clan and support them only up until your boyfriend dies. Like, are you surprised that the cats who killed Skyclan cats in front of you just killed your lover for trying to usurp them? Even if you’re young, you’d think you’d have a shred of awareness for the kinds of cats you brought back home. Violetshine deserved so much better than what Needletail did to her, and man I wish Needlepaw today had a different name... Needletail isn’t evil. She wasn’t an evil cat making decisions. She was indeed a young and impressionable teen making stupid decisions. But a good cat making bad decisions?...I don’t think she was all that good of a cat, honestly. Maybe if she had gotten better consistency I would say so, but nothing justifies abuse of another individual at that level and she was never called out on her actions towards Violetshine. That’s my personal issue with her character. I actually, agree with some of this. I like this reply here Moon, it's very expressive on your part and how you personally feel. I think for me, what it really boils down to is that my qualms is more toward the older cats and the festering environment younger cats were being raised in. For example, the Owl incident, Tawnypelt thought the Owl had broken her spine when it grabbed Violetshine, not that she was dead, but it still doesn't change that they never even bothered to look for Needletail at all. Compared to the Snowkit incident where at least two cats, Brackenfur and Swiftpaw, immediately jumped into action to at least try just in case Snowkit was dropped. Snowkit wasn't dropped, but amazingly Needlepaw was. But the thing is...no one bothered to look for her. That's what hurt Needlepaw the most at the time, the fact that her clan didn't even try, and so quickly moved on from her save for he parents obviously. The actions of her clan numbed her, and then even much so when they quickly turn away Tree, despite everything he's done for her and them. To her, they were turning away one of the few cats that actually even cared about her and her safety and helped her get home, when it should have been one of her clanmates, hence why she started to hate the clans for its prejudice toward outsiders. In a way, I agree, I think the Clans have amazingly stupid prejudice toward outsider cats, and should be more open about letting outsiders join. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be cautious, but they should at least be more open minded. Unfortunately, due to Needle's lack of experience, this also made it easier for cats like Darktail and his group to manipulate her and the other apprentices, because this was a tactic Darktail uses, he manipulates cats, pretends to be friendly, then attacks from the inside. It's what he did to SkyClan and Hawkwing after all, and the sickness in ShadowClan made it even easier to carry out. I don't think Needletail is using her past as an excuse for why she behaved. It's more like why she had the mentality that she did, meaning her doubt toward the warrior code and disdain toward how they treated cats outside of it. Elders and warriors were gossiping and trash talking Rowan, so for her and the other apprentices to have a lack of respect toward him is unsurprising and not exclusively to Needletail. A cat that actually uses their past experience as a reason to hurt other cats, would surprisingly be Breezepelt. He goes to the extremes with his behavior; attacks a pregnant queen, his blind half-brother, planned to kill Leafpool and his own father, and several times tried to take out Lionblaze, while also being happy Hollyleaf died. And this was because of his past, and the manipulation he went through thanks to the Dark Forest. When the apprentices decided to finally revolt, it was when Rowanstar was turning away the rogues again, keep in mind at this time, there really was no reason for them to do so except because they were rogues. Needlepaw gets angry and says that ShadowClan should do what they want and not follow the guidance of dead cats, and that the rogues could help them in their time of need. It seemed reasonable at the time, but Rowan ignored them and turned them away anyways. This is when she does leave out of anger toward Rowan, the code and the clans, but it's also when Rowan just casually lets Violetkit leave too, making Violet think she's not needed at all. I also need to say something, there's a difference between gaslighting and guilt tripping. And I feel like gaslighting gets thrown around too much when it's actually guilt tripping. Gaslighting someone is when you "mess with someone's perception of reality and sanity", vs guilt tripping which is when when you "make someone feel guilty, especially in order to induce them to do something". Gaslighters intentionally go out of their way to mentally manipulate others and enjoy watching them lose their sense of reality. They're abusers that make their victims question their memories, thoughts and the events surrounding the abuse. Needletail is 100% guilty of guilt tripping Violetshine, but gaslighting, no. Another thing, when it comes to Needletail and her punishment, I think it should be more clear on what event led to what. After helping Puddleshine with the herbs, Darktail found and out and Needletail was punished. She was imprisoned and left to starve. However, it's when Violetpaw gets caught trying to drug Darktail that Violetpaw is punished. And to Darktail, the best way to do that was to kill Needletail in front of her. He gave her the option to reclaim her loyalty through killing Violetpaw, and in a situation like this it most likely was going to play 3 ways: - Needletail kills Violetpaw, and rejoins the kin.
- Needletail kills Violetpaw, and they kill her anyways.
- Needletail refuses to kill Violetpaw, so they kill her as Violet's punishment.
What they most likely didn't expect was for Needletail to pretend to attack Violetpaw, before turning on them so she could escape.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 17, 2021 15:59:25 GMT -5
Also, correct me if I'm wrong. But were there any incidents where Needletail is shown actively hurting her own clanmates after Darktail took over? Because I remember certain cats, like Sleekwshiker, was doing that, but I don't recall Needletail ever being involved in that type of behavior. I always saw her wanting to be more independent and not liking the idea of being bossed around is all? I don't remember her actively participating in any of Darktail's punishment sessions, or drowning death sentences. And when it came to the guilt-tripping, I only recalled one or two incidents? When Violetpaw was going to leave with Rowan, Tiger, and Tawny, but didn't because of Needletail. Similarly to how Dawnpelt was guilt-tripped into not leaving thanks to her kits. I think there was another incident after Violetpaw leaves the kin to go back to ShadowClan without telling Needletail, I think? Does anyone else recall the second incident or other ones?
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 17, 2021 16:10:59 GMT -5
Well that’s the issue. Many of the adult warriors in Shadowclan also wanted to cause fear and be seen as an aggressive, fear-mongering clan. Many of the Warriors absolutely are also at fault for all of this, I agree with that statement and always have. Though honestly I can’t fault Shadowclan for not spending resources searching for a cat that looked dead taken away by a bird. The chances of that cat living are so low in general. Do I understand why it makes Needletail bitter? Yes. Do I think anyone deserves to be hurt or punished for it in retaliation? Absolutely not. A massive issue I can see is that the apprentices clearly want to fight the other clans. The elders clearly want to be feared again. Rowanstar isn’t wrong. Why fight the other clans and start wars when Shadowclan can find prey and enjoy peace instead? I completely agree that the mentors should have done more to punish their apprentices, but alot of the times when they tried, it still didn’t work. I honestly can’t see anything besides physical harm working to get them in line and there was no way anyone was going to do that. It took cats being starved, tortured and killed for them to shape up and like. Genuinely care about other cats besides themselves and that shouldn’t of had to have been the case had a certain someone not led the entire group of cats who very clearly murdered Skyclan cats in front of them. My issue with Needletail. I completely agree that everyone played a part in Shadowclan’s downfall. I just really hate that the books made it clear that she feels she has 0 blame in anything even after she supposedly realizes that “wow, maybe leading murderous rouges to Shadowclan with the sole intent of letting us be seen as bloodthirsty, elder-abusing, cat-killing rouges wasn’t the best idea, also maybe I shouldn’t horribly and psychologically and emotionally and mentally and even sometimes physically abuse this younger cat but only because my boyfriend is dead and now the only cat I have left is the one I’ve gaslighted to be on my side.” Then she dies “heroically” for that very same cat she abused. That...really isn’t a heroic action to me. She put a band-aid over a gaping wound she opened over and over again and thinks that is resolution. It’s not. She can hate Rowanstar all she likes, I don’t care much about that, but blaming the entire thing on him? Please, holy crap, shut her up, she’s gaslighting out her ass again. It’s entirely inconsistent writing because all her supposed development meant nothing. She’s still the same trash cat she was before she decided to help fix the mess she helped start. Even forgetting everything else besides just Needletail herself, she’s in that gross trope I hate of “Well since I was hurt in the past, it’s okay for me to hurt other people.” and for me personally, it’s not complex or interesting. It’s gross and uncomfortable that other characters suffer because one character is bitter. There’s no complexity for me about a cat who only changed her mind because her boyfriend is dead, and suddenly she stops abusing cats? Which, she technically doesn’t. And then, all the Grade D- development she got while alive goes right down the drain when she’s in Starclan touting the entire blame on one cat as if she didn’t contribute a massive part of the issue herself. That’s my big issue here. And this is just my personal opinion. Just mine, I’m not saying nobody can enjoy Needletail’s character, do what makes you happy. It’s just why I can never personally like her or sympathize with her, because gaslighting and abusing a kit is a line that’s crossed that destroys all chances of me sympathizing with a character, and even then Needletail’s past really isn’t all that much to garner sympathy from me. Sorry the clan didn’t send 15 search parties after you after genuinely thinking you were dead and were going to be eaten by a bird that can fly miles away. Doesn’t give you credence to lead murderous rouges to the clan and support them only up until your boyfriend dies. Like, are you surprised that the cats who killed Skyclan cats in front of you just killed your lover for trying to usurp them? Even if you’re young, you’d think you’d have a shred of awareness for the kinds of cats you brought back home. Violetshine deserved so much better than what Needletail did to her, and man I wish Needlepaw today had a different name... Needletail isn’t evil. She wasn’t an evil cat making decisions. She was indeed a young and impressionable teen making stupid decisions. But a good cat making bad decisions?...I don’t think she was all that good of a cat, honestly. Maybe if she had gotten better consistency I would say so, but nothing justifies abuse of another individual at that level and she was never called out on her actions towards Violetshine. That’s my personal issue with her character. I actually, agree with some of this. I like this reply here Moon, it's very expressive on your part and how you personally feel. I think for me, what it really boils down to is that my qualms is more toward the older cats and the festering environment younger cats were being raised in. For example, the Owl incident, Tawnypelt thought the Owl had broken her spine when it grabbed Violetshine, not that she was dead, but it still doesn't change that they never even bothered to look for Needletail at all. Compared to the Snowkit incident where at least two cats, Brackenfur and Swiftpaw, immediately jumped into action to at least try just in case Snowkit was dropped. Snowkit wasn't dropped, but amazingly Needlepaw was. But the thing is...no one bothered to look for her. That's what hurt Needlepaw the most at the time, the fact that her clan didn't even try, and so quickly moved on from her save for he parents obviously. The actions of her clan numbed her, and then even much so when they quickly turn away Tree, despite everything he's done for her and them. To her, they were turning away one of the few cats that actually even cared about her and her safety and helped her get home, when it should have been one of her clanmates, hence why she started to hate the clans for its prejudice toward outsiders. In a way, I agree, I think the Clans have amazingly stupid prejudice toward outsider cats, and should be more open about letting outsiders join. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be cautious, but they should at least be more open minded. Unfortunately, due to Needle's lack of experience, this also made it easier for cats like Darktail and his group to manipulate her and the other apprentices, because this was a tactic Darktail uses, he manipulates cats, pretends to be friendly, then attacks from the inside. It's what he did to SkyClan and Hawkwing after all, and the sickness in ShadowClan made it even easier to carry out. I don't think Needletail is using her past as an excuse for why she behaved. It's more like why she had the mentality that she did, meaning her doubt toward the warrior code and disdain toward how they treated cats outside of it. Elders and warriors were gossiping and trash talking Rowan, so for her and the other apprentices to have a lack of respect toward him is unsurprising and not exclusively to Needletail. A cat that actually uses their past experience as a reason to hurt other cats, would surprisingly be Breezepelt. He goes to the extremes with his behavior; attacks a pregnant queen, his blind half-brother, planned to kill Leafpool and his own father, and several times tried to take out Lionblaze, while also being happy Hollyleaf died. And this was because of his past, and the manipulation he went through thanks to the Dark Forest. When the apprentices decided to finally revolt, it was when Rowanstar was turning away the rogues again, keep in mind at this time, there really was no reason for them to do so except because they were rogues. Needlepaw gets angry and says that ShadowClan should do what they want and not follow the guidance of dead cats, and that the rogues could help them in their time of need. It seemed reasonable at the time, but Rowan ignored them and turned them away anyways. This is when she does leave out of anger toward Rowan, the code and the clans, but it's also when Rowan just casually lets Violetkit leave too, making Violet think she's not needed at all. I also need to say something, there's a difference between gaslighting and guilt tripping. And I feel like gaslighting gets thrown around too much when it's actually guilt tripping. Gaslighting someone is when you "mess with someone's perception of reality and sanity", vs guilt tripping which is when when you "make someone feel guilty, especially in order to induce them to do something". Gaslighters intentionally go out of their way to mentally manipulate others and enjoy watching them lose their sense of reality. They're abusers that make their victims question their memories, thoughts and the events surrounding the abuse. Needletail is 100% guilty of guilt tripping Violetshine, but gaslighting, no. Another thing, when it comes to Needletail and her punishment, I think it should be more clear on what event led to what. After helping Puddleshine with the herbs, Darktail found and out and Needletail was punished. She was imprisoned and left to starve. However, it's when Violetpaw gets caught trying to drug Darktail that Violetpaw is punished. And to Darktail, the best way to do that was to kill Needletail in front of her. He gave her the option to reclaim her loyalty through killing Violetpaw, and in a situation like this it most likely was going to play 3 ways: - Needletail kills Violetpaw, and rejoins the kin.
- Needletail kills Violetpaw, and they kill her anyways.
- Needletail refuses to kill Violetpaw, so they kill her as Violet's punishment.
What they most likely didn't expect was for Needletail to pretend to attack Violetpaw, before turning on them so she could escape.
I’m on my phone so I sadly can’t write too much, but I can understand a few of these points. I personally think that when it comes to not letting rouges join Shadowclan, I’m not surprised that a cat like Rowanstar was firmly against it, even if they could possibly help. Shadowclan had been burned a countless number of times in the past when they did allow rouges and outsiders they did not know in. Members of the clan joined Bloodclan, the outsider kittypets murdered Talonpaw, which is brought up right before Rowanstar dies actually, I’m glad they remembered that. Blackstar allows Sol into the clan and he proceeds to usher Blackstar into giving up on the Warrior Code completely, which was a really bad idea and nearly fractured the Clan. A large portion of BrS was showcasing that Shadowclan clearly was not keen on depending on help from anyone, so my confusion is to why letting rouges help the clan would be any different than letting Thunderclan or the other clans help them? Alot of the cats in AVOS Shadowclan are extremely contradicting. One moment they want outsiders let in, the other they want Shadowclan to be feared and start battles without any outside influence. Honestly I wish the arc would have brought up all the horrible things that happened in the past to at least show these young cats that letting in a group of very dangerous rouges and joining them probably isn’t the move they should be making. As for the Gaslighting vs Guilt-Tripping, the finite details of the context still gross me out either way. Whichever tactic Needletail uses, she’s still manipulating a younger cat and mentally and emotionally abusing her when Violetshine doesn’t do what Needletail likes. That, and I genuinely wonder why they go through the effort to make Needletail seem like she’s regretting her actions but then make it very clear that she really kind of doesn’t. I still wouldn’t like her if she was more willing to own up to her own part of the blame, but I would dislike her far less had she done so in Starclan. I also think at the very least that the books should have let Violetshine really pull herself away from Needletail and realize how awful she was to her, instead of having her name a kit after her. It just...blugh, it’s so horribly gross to me. With Breezepelt, I at least can appreciate that almost all of Windclan still hated him and it was clear that he was never “redeemed” in the sense. His actions are not brushed over, certainly not in fandom compared to Needletail, who’s hailed as some rebel girl boss in parts of the fandom. Plenty of people also will never forgive Breezepelt, which is also fine, because his actions are not justified either no matter how bad his upbringing was. With Breezepelt, his character change at the very least remains consistent. Needletail’s didn’t after she died, which is unfortunate. Honestly I really did want Needletail and Rain to live and become loners together, because then she at least could have more room to grow away from the environment she supposedly hated so much. Which is why I do really want to rewrite parts of AvOS. She could have had a much better resolution than what we got.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 17, 2021 19:02:50 GMT -5
Also, correct me if I'm wrong. But were there any incidents where Needletail is shown actively hurting her own clanmates after Darktail took over? Because I remember certain cats, like Sleekwshiker, was doing that, but I don't recall Needletail ever being involved in that type of behavior. I always saw her wanting to be more independent and not liking the idea of being bossed around is all? I don't remember her actively participating in any of Darktail's punishment sessions, or drowning death sentences. And when it came to the guilt-tripping, I only recalled one or two incidents? When Violetpaw was going to leave with Rowan, Tiger, and Tawny, but didn't because of Needletail. Similarly to how Dawnpelt was guilt-tripped into not leaving thanks to her kits. I think there was another incident after Violetpaw leaves the kin to go back to ShadowClan without telling Needletail, I think? Does anyone else recall the second incident or other ones? She never does. In fact, the only time she ever attacks anyone is someone she considers an enemy, like the Clans. But she never actually attacks her own Clanmates unless you count her insulting them on occasion. As for Violetpaw encounter, here's what happens. For context, Violetpaw left soon after Rain lost an eye after challenging Darktail, partially because she was scared and also partially because she felt neglected by Needletail. She only encounters her again after she takes a walk after Kinkfur dies. It's also the only time Needletail is outright hostile towards Violetshine. And here's when Needletail stops her from leaving with Rowanstar. Also, your other post basically sums up my thoughts perfectly! I still maintain that Needletail is a fun character to analyze, but I'm also harder on the older cats because of it. ShadowClan obviously had the best of intentions towards their young, but it's the actions that matter here. No one was in the right, it's just that the apprentices obviously took things to the extreme. It's why I pity Violetshine so much as well. She didn't really have any good role models in her life until she joined SkyClan.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 17, 2021 19:25:30 GMT -5
I actually, agree with some of this. I like this reply here Moon, it's very expressive on your part and how you personally feel. I think for me, what it really boils down to is that my qualms is more toward the older cats and the festering environment younger cats were being raised in. For example, the Owl incident, Tawnypelt thought the Owl had broken her spine when it grabbed Violetshine, not that she was dead, but it still doesn't change that they never even bothered to look for Needletail at all. Compared to the Snowkit incident where at least two cats, Brackenfur and Swiftpaw, immediately jumped into action to at least try just in case Snowkit was dropped. Snowkit wasn't dropped, but amazingly Needlepaw was. But the thing is...no one bothered to look for her. That's what hurt Needlepaw the most at the time, the fact that her clan didn't even try, and so quickly moved on from her save for he parents obviously. The actions of her clan numbed her, and then even much so when they quickly turn away Tree, despite everything he's done for her and them. To her, they were turning away one of the few cats that actually even cared about her and her safety and helped her get home, when it should have been one of her clanmates, hence why she started to hate the clans for its prejudice toward outsiders. In a way, I agree, I think the Clans have amazingly stupid prejudice toward outsider cats, and should be more open about letting outsiders join. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be cautious, but they should at least be more open minded. Unfortunately, due to Needle's lack of experience, this also made it easier for cats like Darktail and his group to manipulate her and the other apprentices, because this was a tactic Darktail uses, he manipulates cats, pretends to be friendly, then attacks from the inside. It's what he did to SkyClan and Hawkwing after all, and the sickness in ShadowClan made it even easier to carry out. I don't think Needletail is using her past as an excuse for why she behaved. It's more like why she had the mentality that she did, meaning her doubt toward the warrior code and disdain toward how they treated cats outside of it. Elders and warriors were gossiping and trash talking Rowan, so for her and the other apprentices to have a lack of respect toward him is unsurprising and not exclusively to Needletail. A cat that actually uses their past experience as a reason to hurt other cats, would surprisingly be Breezepelt. He goes to the extremes with his behavior; attacks a pregnant queen, his blind half-brother, planned to kill Leafpool and his own father, and several times tried to take out Lionblaze, while also being happy Hollyleaf died. And this was because of his past, and the manipulation he went through thanks to the Dark Forest. When the apprentices decided to finally revolt, it was when Rowanstar was turning away the rogues again, keep in mind at this time, there really was no reason for them to do so except because they were rogues. Needlepaw gets angry and says that ShadowClan should do what they want and not follow the guidance of dead cats, and that the rogues could help them in their time of need. It seemed reasonable at the time, but Rowan ignored them and turned them away anyways. This is when she does leave out of anger toward Rowan, the code and the clans, but it's also when Rowan just casually lets Violetkit leave too, making Violet think she's not needed at all. I also need to say something, there's a difference between gaslighting and guilt tripping. And I feel like gaslighting gets thrown around too much when it's actually guilt tripping. Gaslighting someone is when you "mess with someone's perception of reality and sanity", vs guilt tripping which is when when you "make someone feel guilty, especially in order to induce them to do something". Gaslighters intentionally go out of their way to mentally manipulate others and enjoy watching them lose their sense of reality. They're abusers that make their victims question their memories, thoughts and the events surrounding the abuse. Needletail is 100% guilty of guilt tripping Violetshine, but gaslighting, no. Another thing, when it comes to Needletail and her punishment, I think it should be more clear on what event led to what. After helping Puddleshine with the herbs, Darktail found and out and Needletail was punished. She was imprisoned and left to starve. However, it's when Violetpaw gets caught trying to drug Darktail that Violetpaw is punished. And to Darktail, the best way to do that was to kill Needletail in front of her. He gave her the option to reclaim her loyalty through killing Violetpaw, and in a situation like this it most likely was going to play 3 ways: - Needletail kills Violetpaw, and rejoins the kin.
- Needletail kills Violetpaw, and they kill her anyways.
- Needletail refuses to kill Violetpaw, so they kill her as Violet's punishment.
What they most likely didn't expect was for Needletail to pretend to attack Violetpaw, before turning on them so she could escape.
I’m on my phone so I sadly can’t write too much, but I can understand a few of these points. I personally think that when it comes to not letting rouges join Shadowclan, I’m not surprised that a cat like Rowanstar was firmly against it, even if they could possibly help. Shadowclan had been burned a countless number of times in the past when they did allow rouges and outsiders they did not know in. Members of the clan joined Bloodclan, the outsider kittypets murdered Talonpaw, which is brought up right before Rowanstar dies actually, I’m glad they remembered that. Blackstar allows Sol into the clan and he proceeds to usher Blackstar into giving up on the Warrior Code completely, which was a really bad idea and nearly fractured the Clan. A large portion of BrS was showcasing that Shadowclan clearly was not keen on depending on help from anyone, so my confusion is to why letting rouges help the clan would be any different than letting Thunderclan or the other clans help them? Alot of the cats in AVOS Shadowclan are extremely contradicting. One moment they want outsiders let in, the other they want Shadowclan to be feared and start battles without any outside influence. Honestly I wish the arc would have brought up all the horrible things that happened in the past to at least show these young cats that letting in a group of very dangerous rouges and joining them probably isn’t the move they should be making. As for the Gaslighting vs Guilt-Tripping, the finite details of the context still gross me out either way. Whichever tactic Needletail uses, she’s still manipulating a younger cat and mentally and emotionally abusing her when Violetshine doesn’t do what Needletail likes. That, and I genuinely wonder why they go through the effort to make Needletail seem like she’s regretting her actions but then make it very clear that she really kind of doesn’t. I still wouldn’t like her if she was more willing to own up to her own part of the blame, but I would dislike her far less had she done so in Starclan. I also think at the very least that the books should have let Violetshine really pull herself away from Needletail and realize how awful she was to her, instead of having her name a kit after her. It just...blugh, it’s so horribly gross to me. With Breezepelt, I at least can appreciate that almost all of Windclan still hated him and it was clear that he was never “redeemed” in the sense. His actions are not brushed over, certainly not in fandom compared to Needletail, who’s hailed as some rebel girl boss in parts of the fandom. Plenty of people also will never forgive Breezepelt, which is also fine, because his actions are not justified either no matter how bad his upbringing was. With Breezepelt, his character change at the very least remains consistent. Needletail’s didn’t after she died, which is unfortunate. Honestly I really did want Needletail and Rain to live and become loners together, because then she at least could have more room to grow away from the environment she supposedly hated so much. Which is why I do really want to rewrite parts of AvOS. She could have had a much better resolution than what we got. Good points, I agree, I think Needletail would have very much been better off as a loner with Rain over what happened instead. It's a shame really, because even in my opinion, the fact that she was killed off so soon was surprising, same with Darktail, considering all his build up. My guess is that the Erins wanted to focus on SkyClan more, so they had to axe her and Darktail mid way through AVoS, but without major driving points, it kinda made the second half less interesting. I very much would have preferred her having a more written out redemption on paper, over just being killed off. It always feels like a waste when it comes to characters like Needle, Juniper, etc. Especially with a lot of the DF trainees back in OotS, the Erins seem to have a bad habit of doing this. I know not every redemption needs to be extensive, but it would still make for a far more serperior story.
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Needletail
Apr 17, 2021 19:38:05 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Moonblazer on Apr 17, 2021 19:38:05 GMT -5
I’m on my phone so I sadly can’t write too much, but I can understand a few of these points. I personally think that when it comes to not letting rouges join Shadowclan, I’m not surprised that a cat like Rowanstar was firmly against it, even if they could possibly help. Shadowclan had been burned a countless number of times in the past when they did allow rouges and outsiders they did not know in. Members of the clan joined Bloodclan, the outsider kittypets murdered Talonpaw, which is brought up right before Rowanstar dies actually, I’m glad they remembered that. Blackstar allows Sol into the clan and he proceeds to usher Blackstar into giving up on the Warrior Code completely, which was a really bad idea and nearly fractured the Clan. A large portion of BrS was showcasing that Shadowclan clearly was not keen on depending on help from anyone, so my confusion is to why letting rouges help the clan would be any different than letting Thunderclan or the other clans help them? Alot of the cats in AVOS Shadowclan are extremely contradicting. One moment they want outsiders let in, the other they want Shadowclan to be feared and start battles without any outside influence. Honestly I wish the arc would have brought up all the horrible things that happened in the past to at least show these young cats that letting in a group of very dangerous rouges and joining them probably isn’t the move they should be making. As for the Gaslighting vs Guilt-Tripping, the finite details of the context still gross me out either way. Whichever tactic Needletail uses, she’s still manipulating a younger cat and mentally and emotionally abusing her when Violetshine doesn’t do what Needletail likes. That, and I genuinely wonder why they go through the effort to make Needletail seem like she’s regretting her actions but then make it very clear that she really kind of doesn’t. I still wouldn’t like her if she was more willing to own up to her own part of the blame, but I would dislike her far less had she done so in Starclan. I also think at the very least that the books should have let Violetshine really pull herself away from Needletail and realize how awful she was to her, instead of having her name a kit after her. It just...blugh, it’s so horribly gross to me. With Breezepelt, I at least can appreciate that almost all of Windclan still hated him and it was clear that he was never “redeemed” in the sense. His actions are not brushed over, certainly not in fandom compared to Needletail, who’s hailed as some rebel girl boss in parts of the fandom. Plenty of people also will never forgive Breezepelt, which is also fine, because his actions are not justified either no matter how bad his upbringing was. With Breezepelt, his character change at the very least remains consistent. Needletail’s didn’t after she died, which is unfortunate. Honestly I really did want Needletail and Rain to live and become loners together, because then she at least could have more room to grow away from the environment she supposedly hated so much. Which is why I do really want to rewrite parts of AvOS. She could have had a much better resolution than what we got. Good points, I agree, I think Needletail would have very much been better off as a loner with Rain over what happened instead. It's a shame really, because even in my opinion, the fact that she was killed off so soon was surprising, same with Darktail, considering all his build up. My guess is that the Erins wanted to focus on SkyClan more, so they had to axe her and Darktail mid way through AVoS, but without major driving points, it kinda made the second half less interesting. I very much would have preferred her having a more written out redemption on paper, over just being killed off. It always feels like a waste when it comes to characters like Needle, Juniper, etc. Especially with a lot of the DF trainees back in OotS, the Erins seem to have a bad habit of doing this. I know not every redemption needs to be extensive, but it would still make for a far more serperior story. Massive agree on Juniperclaw. What a wasted opportunity that was, and to die in such a way. Skyclan coming to the lake in general was just...meh for me. I loved them in the gorge, why did they have to bring them here? Also wished they did more with Sleekwhisker.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 17, 2021 19:52:56 GMT -5
Also, correct me if I'm wrong. But were there any incidents where Needletail is shown actively hurting her own clanmates after Darktail took over? Because I remember certain cats, like Sleekwshiker, was doing that, but I don't recall Needletail ever being involved in that type of behavior. I always saw her wanting to be more independent and not liking the idea of being bossed around is all? I don't remember her actively participating in any of Darktail's punishment sessions, or drowning death sentences. And when it came to the guilt-tripping, I only recalled one or two incidents? When Violetpaw was going to leave with Rowan, Tiger, and Tawny, but didn't because of Needletail. Similarly to how Dawnpelt was guilt-tripped into not leaving thanks to her kits. I think there was another incident after Violetpaw leaves the kin to go back to ShadowClan without telling Needletail, I think? Does anyone else recall the second incident or other ones? She never does. In fact, the only time she ever attacks anyone is someone she considers an enemy, like the Clans. But she never actually attacks her own Clanmates unless you count her insulting them on occasion. As for Violetpaw encounter, here's what happens. For context, Violetpaw left soon after Rain lost an eye after challenging Darktail, partially because she was scared and also partially because she felt neglected by Needletail. She only encounters her again after she takes a walk after Kinkfur dies. It's also the only time Needletail is outright hostile towards Violetshine. And here's when Needletail stops her from leaving with Rowanstar. Also, your other post basically sums up my thoughts perfectly! I still maintain that Needletail is a fun character to analyze, but I'm also harder on the older cats because of it. ShadowClan obviously had the best of intentions towards their young, but it's the actions that matter here. No one was in the right, it's just that the apprentices obviously took things to the extreme. It's why I pity Violetshine so much as well. She didn't really have any good role models in her life until she joined SkyClan. Interesting, looking back and reading these really does help sometimes. So it seems that when Rowanstar separated her from her sister, and also just gave her away to the rogues, its something that stuck with Violetshine's mentality. It probably made Needletail even more grudging toward Rowan too, because she could understand what it felt to "not belong" even in a clan around a bunch of others. I guess it's why she was close to Violet or felt a sense of duty like one would with kin. When Violet up and left her, after Rain's injury, understandable she felt upset by that. In a sense Violet did very much betray her and the group, I don't blame her, but from both sides it's understandable. Needletail is hurt that Violet abandoned her, but Violet preferred the life of a clan over being a rogue, and it's her right to choose. I feel like this could have had much better depth if Needle and her had talked prior to her leaving. Would have been more compelling. But in this scenario, it's more so Needletail being angry at someone she used to trust, whom is now her enemy, vs Violet herself feeling guilty for not saying a word and leaving her behind. However, the second scene is easily guilt tripping: “Wait!” Needletail’s mew sounded in her ear as she passed. The silver she-cat’s scent washed over her. “Where are you going? I thought you’d stay. Please don’t leave me again!”
and “Please stay,” Needletail begged. “We can make ShadowClan the Clan it used to be, before you came. A great Clan. A brave Clan. You’ll be proud to be part of it.” She looked around the rogues. “These are cats who understand what it’s like not to belong. They will be as loyal to you as I have been. We’re like kin now. Can you say that about any other cat you’ve known?”Although, the rest seems out of genuine desperation, the bolded parts is pretty much guilt-tripping. It's most likely due when Violet left her the first time, she feared it happening again, and it almost actually did if not for her begging Violet to stay. I think at this point in the story as well, Violet and Needle do see each other as kin, but it's also obvious to the readers that kin shouldn't be everything at this point. I do think Violet's choice though makes sense, the only reason she probably would have left is because Rowanstar was her leader, and she'd rather not be with rogues. But staying also made sense because she saw Needletail as her only real family, since her foster mother never considered her as her own kit. And also made it clear that her other kits weren't her siblings either. Most of Rowan's interest was just to use her for the sake of the prophecy, which is a shame...I kinda wanted to see much better scenes between those two. Violet really didn't feel like she was close to any cat in ShadowClan, despite preferring the structure of a clan over the life of a rogue. It makes me feel bad for her.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 17, 2021 19:58:05 GMT -5
Good points, I agree, I think Needletail would have very much been better off as a loner with Rain over what happened instead. It's a shame really, because even in my opinion, the fact that she was killed off so soon was surprising, same with Darktail, considering all his build up. My guess is that the Erins wanted to focus on SkyClan more, so they had to axe her and Darktail mid way through AVoS, but without major driving points, it kinda made the second half less interesting. I very much would have preferred her having a more written out redemption on paper, over just being killed off. It always feels like a waste when it comes to characters like Needle, Juniper, etc. Especially with a lot of the DF trainees back in OotS, the Erins seem to have a bad habit of doing this. I know not every redemption needs to be extensive, but it would still make for a far more serperior story. Massive agree on Juniperclaw. What a wasted opportunity that was, and to die in such a way. Skyclan coming to the lake in general was just...meh for me. I loved them in the gorge, why did they have to bring them here? Also wished they did more with Sleekwhisker. I personally don't mind SkyClan's inclusion, just wish it was done better. It's interesting to see just how much of a contrast there is between SkyClan's morality vs the other clans. Especially considering how level headed Leafstar is. It sucks how much the most of the current leaders act like sheep, or make dumb decisions, and Leafstar is at least shown defending her cats, listening to them, and doesn't have problems challenging other leaders to protect her clan. You can also see the generational pain when it comes to them, they've been through so much so they're very cautious. But they're also not completely prejudice either, and know when to make hard choices. Compared to the other clans, SkyClan is kinda a breath of fresh air. However, I think they're better off in a more independent area, their current one is actually not too bad, it's better to be there than squished between Shadow and Thunder. And it seems they're also keeping their personalities, instead of molding into the same crud the other four clans have done for years now.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 17, 2021 20:16:44 GMT -5
Massive agree on Juniperclaw. What a wasted opportunity that was, and to die in such a way. Skyclan coming to the lake in general was just...meh for me. I loved them in the gorge, why did they have to bring them here? Also wished they did more with Sleekwhisker. I personally don't mind SkyClan's inclusion, just wish it was done better. It's interesting to see just how much of a contrast there is between SkyClan's morality vs the other clans. Especially considering how level headed Leafstar is. It sucks how much the most of the current leaders act like sheep, or make dumb decisions, and Leafstar is at least shown defending her cats, listening to them, and doesn't have problems challenging other leaders to protect her clan. You can also see the generational pain when it comes to them, they've been through so much so they're very cautious. But they're also not completely prejudice either, and know when to make hard choices. Compared to the other clans, SkyClan is kinda a breath of fresh air. However, I think they're better off in a more independent area, their current one is actually not too bad, it's better to be there than squished between Shadow and Thunder. And it seems they're also keeping their personalities, instead of molding into the same crud the other four clans have done for years now. I just have 0 interest in Skyclan in general. I can’t remember more than one or two cats, and Leafstar’s been there forever. But I’m just not invested in Skyclan in general and nothing has made me any more interested in them, sadly. They just...don’t fit in, in my mind. Them in the gorge was really cool because I loved the Daylight Warrior concept. Poof. Gone now sadly... And in the post above, this is why I wished Rowanstar had mentored Violetpaw. I think that would have been really cool, and would give us more insight on both of them.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 17, 2021 20:36:32 GMT -5
I personally don't mind SkyClan's inclusion, just wish it was done better. It's interesting to see just how much of a contrast there is between SkyClan's morality vs the other clans. Especially considering how level headed Leafstar is. It sucks how much the most of the current leaders act like sheep, or make dumb decisions, and Leafstar is at least shown defending her cats, listening to them, and doesn't have problems challenging other leaders to protect her clan. You can also see the generational pain when it comes to them, they've been through so much so they're very cautious. But they're also not completely prejudice either, and know when to make hard choices. Compared to the other clans, SkyClan is kinda a breath of fresh air. However, I think they're better off in a more independent area, their current one is actually not too bad, it's better to be there than squished between Shadow and Thunder. And it seems they're also keeping their personalities, instead of molding into the same crud the other four clans have done for years now. I just have 0 interest in Skyclan in general. I can’t remember more than one or two cats, and Leafstar’s been there forever. But I’m just not invested in Skyclan in general and nothing has made me any more interested in them, sadly. They just...don’t fit in, in my mind. Them in the gorge was really cool because I loved the Daylight Warrior concept. Poof. Gone now sadly... And in the post above, this is why I wished Rowanstar had mentored Violetpaw. I think that would have been really cool, and would give us more insight on both of them. Surprisingly, I too felt similar to that, but I wasn't fond on the Daylight warrior idea, only because I knew something like with Darktail would happen. When the clan is attacked during the night and down warriors, etc. I think what actually invested me in SkyClan was definitely Hawkwing's SE, which was written pretty well. It gave me a different look on SkyClan, and especially Leafstar as a leader, who prior I did not care for at all. I think seeing how much they went through and still coming out above that is what made me admire them. I think the current clans should honestly take a page from SkyClan at this point. Maybe they'd be less like disrespecting furballs, and more tolerable, ya know? And I do agree, I really wished Rowan was shown in a more understanding light than what he was actually shown in canon, then I'd probably have more sympathy for him. But when he separated Violet from Twig, and also so easily threw her to the rogues, it left a bad taste in my mouth. I also wish Pinenose was a better mother to Violet, or at least Violet having a better mother figure at all. Likewise, Needletail and the other apprentices definitely needed better figures in their lives as well. The entire thing was just much too crowded and chaotic, and the gossiping didn't help in the least. Makes me envious of the level of unity SkyClan has in comparison to the other clans. It was so disorientating, even family ties were being strained, if what was going on between Crowfrost and his kits was anything to go by. At this point what the clans need are some therapist, smh.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 19, 2021 15:20:56 GMT -5
Well that’s the issue. Many of the adult warriors in Shadowclan also wanted to cause fear and be seen as an aggressive, fear-mongering clan. Many of the Warriors absolutely are also at fault for all of this, I agree with that statement and always have. Though honestly I can’t fault Shadowclan for not spending resources searching for a cat that looked dead taken away by a bird. The chances of that cat living are so low in general. Do I understand why it makes Needletail bitter? Yes. Do I think anyone deserves to be hurt or punished for it in retaliation? Absolutely not. A massive issue I can see is that the apprentices clearly want to fight the other clans. The elders clearly want to be feared again. Rowanstar isn’t wrong. Why fight the other clans and start wars when Shadowclan can find prey and enjoy peace instead? I completely agree that the mentors should have done more to punish their apprentices, but alot of the times when they tried, it still didn’t work. I honestly can’t see anything besides physical harm working to get them in line and there was no way anyone was going to do that. It took cats being starved, tortured and killed for them to shape up and like. Genuinely care about other cats besides themselves and that shouldn’t of had to have been the case had a certain someone not led the entire group of cats who very clearly murdered Skyclan cats in front of them. My issue with Needletail. I completely agree that everyone played a part in Shadowclan’s downfall. I just really hate that the books made it clear that she feels she has 0 blame in anything even after she supposedly realizes that “wow, maybe leading murderous rouges to Shadowclan with the sole intent of letting us be seen as bloodthirsty, elder-abusing, cat-killing rouges wasn’t the best idea, also maybe I shouldn’t horribly and psychologically and emotionally and mentally and even sometimes physically abuse this younger cat but only because my boyfriend is dead and now the only cat I have left is the one I’ve gaslighted to be on my side.” Then she dies “heroically” for that very same cat she abused. That...really isn’t a heroic action to me. She put a band-aid over a gaping wound she opened over and over again and thinks that is resolution. It’s not. She can hate Rowanstar all she likes, I don’t care much about that, but blaming the entire thing on him? Please, holy crap, shut her up, she’s gaslighting out her ass again. It’s entirely inconsistent writing because all her supposed development meant nothing. She’s still the same trash cat she was before she decided to help fix the mess she helped start. Even forgetting everything else besides just Needletail herself, she’s in that gross trope I hate of “Well since I was hurt in the past, it’s okay for me to hurt other people.” and for me personally, it’s not complex or interesting. It’s gross and uncomfortable that other characters suffer because one character is bitter. There’s no complexity for me about a cat who only changed her mind because her boyfriend is dead, and suddenly she stops abusing cats? Which, she technically doesn’t. And then, all the Grade D- development she got while alive goes right down the drain when she’s in Starclan touting the entire blame on one cat as if she didn’t contribute a massive part of the issue herself. That’s my big issue here. And this is just my personal opinion. Just mine, I’m not saying nobody can enjoy Needletail’s character, do what makes you happy. It’s just why I can never personally like her or sympathize with her, because gaslighting and abusing a kit is a line that’s crossed that destroys all chances of me sympathizing with a character, and even then Needletail’s past really isn’t all that much to garner sympathy from me. Sorry the clan didn’t send 15 search parties after you after genuinely thinking you were dead and were going to be eaten by a bird that can fly miles away. Doesn’t give you credence to lead murderous rouges to the clan and support them only up until your boyfriend dies. Like, are you surprised that the cats who killed Skyclan cats in front of you just killed your lover for trying to usurp them? Even if you’re young, you’d think you’d have a shred of awareness for the kinds of cats you brought back home. Violetshine deserved so much better than what Needletail did to her, and man I wish Needlepaw today had a different name... Needletail isn’t evil. She wasn’t an evil cat making decisions. She was indeed a young and impressionable teen making stupid decisions. But a good cat making bad decisions?...I don’t think she was all that good of a cat, honestly. Maybe if she had gotten better consistency I would say so, but nothing justifies abuse of another individual at that level and she was never called out on her actions towards Violetshine. That’s my personal issue with her character. Exactly. You took the words right out of my mouth, Moon!
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Needletail
Apr 21, 2021 10:44:41 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Aqua on Apr 21, 2021 10:44:41 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair for people to compare Breezepelt to Needletail. Needletail didn't even get a chance to live a life, whereas Breezepelt actually did.
This also frustrates me because Breezepelt doesn't really even deserve to gets rewarded for the crap he's done. He's got a mate and a family and a life in his clan again, when he knew what was going on in the DF, nearly killed several cats and got away with it, yet he gets a chance to live happily and free from all the shit he's done.
But Needletail on the other hand, didn't even get a chance to LIVE. She won't ever get a mate or have kits, or even see Violetshine again. She died the moment she realized she was wrong by sacrificing her own life. Nobody's saying she's an angel, but I don't think people should compare Breezepelt's redemption to hers. ESPECIALLY when Needletail wasn't even malicious like he was. Needletail was simply a little brat who went the wrong way, and nothing more. Breezepelt has a chance to redeem himself because he's alive with a more positive influence in his life; Needletail lost everything after she realized she was wrong, and paid with her life before she got a chance to properly redeem herself. You guys really can't say Breezepelt's redemption was better when Needletail didn't even get a chance to redeem herself properly while she was alive lol. It's not a fair comparison. Plus they were both written differently. They're not the same cats.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 21, 2021 11:21:33 GMT -5
Mmmmmm. Breezepelt and Needletail aren’t the same cats, no, but Needletail was absolutely malicious. You don’t get to abuse another cat like that and get excuses for it. A little brat wouldn’t lead cats she’s seen slaughtering other cats back to a clan where kits and elders live. A little brat wouldn’t threaten Violetpaw and guilt-trip and emotionally manipulate her when she wouldn’t do everything she wanted. Thank god she won’t have a mate and kits or see Violetshine again when she treated her and her own clan like that. Violetshine is waaaay better off without her abuser wandering around anymore. At least Breezepelt is consistent in his new change. Needletail dropped all her really pathetically written “development” the second she died and blamed everything on everyone else. Does Breezepelt deserve the happy life he has now? Who knows, maybe not, maybe so, but if it’s the case of deserving, then Needletail doesn’t deserve jack either.
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Post by Aqua on Apr 21, 2021 11:40:59 GMT -5
Mmmmmm. Breezepelt and Needletail aren’t the same cats, no, but Needletail was absolutely malicious. You don’t get to abuse another cat like that and get excuses for it. A little brat wouldn’t lead cats she’s seen slaughtering other cats back to a clan where kits and elders live. A little brat wouldn’t threaten Violetpaw and guilt-trip and emotionally manipulate her when she wouldn’t do everything she wanted. Thank god she won’t have a mate and kits or see Violetshine again when she treated her and her own clan like that. Violetshine is waaaay better off without her abuser wandering around anymore. At least Breezepelt is consistent in his new change. Needletail dropped all her really pathetically written “development” the second she died and blamed everything on everyone else. Does Breezepelt deserve the happy life he has now? Who knows, maybe not, maybe so, but if it’s the case of deserving, then Needletail doesn’t deserve jack either. She WASN'T. Breezepelt PURPOSELY tried to hurt other cats for his own good and wanted to kill a PREGNANT QUEEN just to frame Jayfeather, for his own benefits. Did Needletail ever want to kill anyone to hurt someone else? No, only Sleekwhisker and Darktail did. Needletail has her own weird ways of showing she cares about Violetshine. You're blaming everything on Needletail, but Rowanstar and his own warriors are as much fault for the fallout as Needletail. Like I said, nobody's excusing Needletail, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that. People defending her understand her, but nobody thinks she's a saint. I don't agree with Needletail's treatment, but honestly? She has a point. Rowanstar never puts his own Clan first, he always put his own pride before himself. He refused to accept help multiple times when his clan desperately needed it, guilted Tawnypelt for helping when she knew her clan needed it and shamed her for asking for help, and when Leafpool was trying to help a queen ready to give birth while they didn't have a medicine cat (or Littlecloud was sick at the time, I can't remember) he kicked her out because of his pride. Rowanstar was willing to fight against SkyClan for a stupid rabbit to gain his pride back, and he never listens to his warriors. He just walks way when they try to talk to him, and lets them deal with it on their own. A leader should listen to their clan and put their needs first before their own pride. Blackstar led better than he did, actually puts his own pride away to help his clan, and I don't even LIKE him. Rowanstar really wasn't the best leader for ShadowClan. And I hate to admit this, but Blackstar is the best one they've ever had. Don't like him, don't care for him, but he always put his clan first, and even helped the others when they needed it. Rowanstar just wasn't strong enough to deal with his clan and always put his pride first before his own Clanmates. I'm not saying he's a bad person, but I really don't think he's capable of leadership because of this. Do I pity Rowanstar? Of course. I don't think he deserved to go down the way he did, but I don't think he's that good of a leader people are making him out to be. But Needletail and his warriors have a point about him, even if their points were harsh. Needletail was only like that to Violetshine because she was her only true friend she's ever had. They both understood each other, and she pretty much raised Violetshine. It's natural Violetshine is going to continue to see her as a good friend. It DOESN'T EXCUSE HER BEHAVIOR, just putting that out there, but I UNDERSTAND Needletail's behavior. She truly cares about Violetshine, even if she doesn't handle her the right way. As for Needletail blaming Rowanstar for everything after she died, everyone else blamed him as much as she did. Even Blackstar. Just wanted to point that out.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 21, 2021 12:16:51 GMT -5
This isn’t about Rowanstar though. This is about Needletail. Her weird way of showing her care is pretty disgusting. Everything you’ve said is a repeat of what everyone else says to deflect Needletail’s responsibilities and blame onto everybody else besides her. Who cares who was a better leader or not? And who cares if Needletail “cared” about the very cat she hurt the most? She made her bed and she lied in it, there’s no heroics to her for doing what she should have done from the start lol. We’ll agree to disagree on this one.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 21, 2021 12:48:58 GMT -5
To say Needletail was malicious is a bit mischaracterizing. To be malicious means to do something ill intent, characterized by malice, and intentionally wanting to do harm. If anything that suits Sleekwhisker far more than Needletail. Breezpelt as well only when he was trying to kill his own kin for some time. If anything she's more rebellious, meaning she didn't respect traditions, hated authority, and wanted change. Ironically, her realization of prejudice in the clan and disliking for it was eerily more similar to Firestar, the difference is that whereas Firestar took a more peaceful approach to it and respected the Clan's traditions. Needletail went against it, and tried to change it in a more active way over passive. She was a blunt jerk at some points, but also a had a heart of gold in others. On the other hand Sleekwhisker, very much is malicious, and bullies Violetshine, even when she was just a kit, she intentionally treated her coldly, and even worse when Darktail and Needletail gave her attention.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 21, 2021 12:50:01 GMT -5
Mmmmmm. Breezepelt and Needletail aren’t the same cats, no, but Needletail was absolutely malicious. You don’t get to abuse another cat like that and get excuses for it. A little brat wouldn’t lead cats she’s seen slaughtering other cats back to a clan where kits and elders live. A little brat wouldn’t threaten Violetpaw and guilt-trip and emotionally manipulate her when she wouldn’t do everything she wanted. Thank god she won’t have a mate and kits or see Violetshine again when she treated her and her own clan like that. Violetshine is waaaay better off without her abuser wandering around anymore. At least Breezepelt is consistent in his new change. Needletail dropped all her really pathetically written “development” the second she died and blamed everything on everyone else. Does Breezepelt deserve the happy life he has now? Who knows, maybe not, maybe so, but if it’s the case of deserving, then Needletail doesn’t deserve jack either. She WASN'T. Breezepelt PURPOSELY tried to hurt other cats for his own good and wanted to kill a PREGNANT QUEEN just to frame Jayfeather, for his own benefits. Did Needletail ever want to kill anyone to hurt someone else? No, only Sleekwhisker and Darktail did. Needletail has her own weird ways of showing she cares about Violetshine. You're blaming everything on Needletail, but Rowanstar and his own warriors are as much fault for the fallout as Needletail. Like I said, nobody's excusing Needletail, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that. People defending her understand her, but nobody thinks she's a saint. I don't agree with Needletail's treatment, but honestly? She has a point. Rowanstar never puts his own Clan first, he always put his own pride before himself. He refused to accept help multiple times when his clan desperately needed it, guilted Tawnypelt for helping when she knew her clan needed it and shamed her for asking for help, and when Leafpool was trying to help a queen ready to give birth while they didn't have a medicine cat (or Littlecloud was sick at the time, I can't remember) he kicked her out because of his pride. Rowanstar was willing to fight against SkyClan for a stupid rabbit to gain his pride back, and he never listens to his warriors. He just walks way when they try to talk to him, and lets them deal with it on their own. A leader should listen to their clan and put their needs first before their own pride. Blackstar led better than he did, actually puts his own pride away to help his clan, and I don't even LIKE him. Rowanstar really wasn't the best leader for ShadowClan. And I hate to admit this, but Blackstar is the best one they've ever had. Don't like him, don't care for him, but he always put his clan first, and even helped the others when they needed it. Rowanstar just wasn't strong enough to deal with his clan and always put his pride first before his own Clanmates. I'm not saying he's a bad person, but I really don't think he's capable of leadership because of this. Do I pity Rowanstar? Of course. I don't think he deserved to go down the way he did, but I don't think he's that good of a leader people are making him out to be. But Needletail and his warriors have a point about him, even if their points were harsh. Needletail was only like that to Violetshine because she was her only true friend she's ever had. They both understood each other, and she pretty much raised Violetshine. It's natural Violetshine is going to continue to see her as a good friend. It DOESN'T EXCUSE HER BEHAVIOR, just putting that out there, but I UNDERSTAND Needletail's behavior. She truly cares about Violetshine, even if she doesn't handle her the right way. As for Needletail blaming Rowanstar for everything after she died, everyone else blamed him as much as she did. Even Blackstar. Just wanted to point that out. Yeah, Needletail actually DID want to hurt or kill someone; Darktail. Now I know what you're thinking; "But Darktail was evil, that doesn't count!". Ah, but here's the problem. It's the timing. I'm not talking about her battle with Darktail to save Violetshine, I'm talking way earlier, when Rain battles against Darktail for leadership. Here, Needletail is shown cheering the fight on with gusto. At this point in time, per Needletail's own choices, Darktail is her leader(and a better leader than Rowanstar going by her choices), yet she was fast to turn on him and encourage her boyfriend to kill or cripple him. The fact that she happened to be fortunate enough that her boyfriend was attacking a cat who WAS very evil and twisted does not change the fact that she supported it without moral consideration for that. If Darktail had in fact been a good leader, as Needletail acted like he was, then this consideration would not have changed her traitorous behavior. Needletail didn't raise Violetshine at all, it's explicitly said she basically abandoned her and didn't even do anything with her during her early days in Shadowclan. Their relationship only took off once Violetshine became useful to Needletail as a pawn, beyond that they have pretty much no positive interactions up until Needletail's boyfriend dies, at which point she seems to finally realize Darktail's a bad guy and she messed up.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 21, 2021 13:19:18 GMT -5
She WASN'T. Breezepelt PURPOSELY tried to hurt other cats for his own good and wanted to kill a PREGNANT QUEEN just to frame Jayfeather, for his own benefits. Did Needletail ever want to kill anyone to hurt someone else? No, only Sleekwhisker and Darktail did. Needletail has her own weird ways of showing she cares about Violetshine. You're blaming everything on Needletail, but Rowanstar and his own warriors are as much fault for the fallout as Needletail. Like I said, nobody's excusing Needletail, I'm not sure where you're coming from with that. People defending her understand her, but nobody thinks she's a saint. I don't agree with Needletail's treatment, but honestly? She has a point. Rowanstar never puts his own Clan first, he always put his own pride before himself. He refused to accept help multiple times when his clan desperately needed it, guilted Tawnypelt for helping when she knew her clan needed it and shamed her for asking for help, and when Leafpool was trying to help a queen ready to give birth while they didn't have a medicine cat (or Littlecloud was sick at the time, I can't remember) he kicked her out because of his pride. Rowanstar was willing to fight against SkyClan for a stupid rabbit to gain his pride back, and he never listens to his warriors. He just walks way when they try to talk to him, and lets them deal with it on their own. A leader should listen to their clan and put their needs first before their own pride. Blackstar led better than he did, actually puts his own pride away to help his clan, and I don't even LIKE him. Rowanstar really wasn't the best leader for ShadowClan. And I hate to admit this, but Blackstar is the best one they've ever had. Don't like him, don't care for him, but he always put his clan first, and even helped the others when they needed it. Rowanstar just wasn't strong enough to deal with his clan and always put his pride first before his own Clanmates. I'm not saying he's a bad person, but I really don't think he's capable of leadership because of this. Do I pity Rowanstar? Of course. I don't think he deserved to go down the way he did, but I don't think he's that good of a leader people are making him out to be. But Needletail and his warriors have a point about him, even if their points were harsh. Needletail was only like that to Violetshine because she was her only true friend she's ever had. They both understood each other, and she pretty much raised Violetshine. It's natural Violetshine is going to continue to see her as a good friend. It DOESN'T EXCUSE HER BEHAVIOR, just putting that out there, but I UNDERSTAND Needletail's behavior. She truly cares about Violetshine, even if she doesn't handle her the right way. As for Needletail blaming Rowanstar for everything after she died, everyone else blamed him as much as she did. Even Blackstar. Just wanted to point that out. Yeah, Needletail actually DID want to hurt or kill someone; Darktail. Now I know what you're thinking; "But Darktail was evil, that doesn't count!". Ah, but here's the problem. It's the timing. I'm not talking about her battle with Darktail to save Violetshine, I'm talking way earlier, when Rain battles against Darktail for leadership. Here, Needletail is shown cheering the fight on with gusto. At this point in time, per Needletail's own choices, Darktail is her leader(and a better leader than Rowanstar going by her choices), yet she was fast to turn on him and encourage her boyfriend to kill or cripple him. The fact that she happened to be fortunate enough that her boyfriend was attacking a cat who WAS very evil and twisted does not change the fact that she supported it without moral consideration for that. Needletail didn't raise Violetshine at all, it's explicitly said she basically abandoned her and didn't even do anything with her during her early days in Shadowclan. Their relationship only took off once Violetshine became useful to Needletail as a pawn, beyond that they have pretty much no positive interactions up until Needletail's boyfriend dies, at which point she seems to finally realize Darktail's a bad guy and she messed up. It makes sense for her to cheer on someone that was practically her mate over Darktail though. This is how rogues settle things, not Clan cats. Darktail did it with Rowanstar, challenging him, and Rowanstar lost. Rain attempted to challenge Darktail, and likewise lost as well, other than that there really wasn't any other situations similar to this, unless you want to count her fighting against her enemies? As for the second notion. After a bit of time, when Alderpaw goes to ShadowClan, he talks to Needlepaw about Violetkit, asking how she was doing, and Needlepaw replies that she doesn't know, and that she's a kit that spends time in the nursery, as kits do. Alderpaw encourages to her to try and play with Violetkit, like he does with Twigkit, even though Needlepaw is annoyed since she wants to focus on her apprenticeship. While he was there, she comes up with the idea to visit her, so they both went to see her in the nursery, and later Needlepaw becomes thoughtful at the idea of visiting more, liking that Violet was so talkative. Imo it seems more like an apprentice who doesn't know how to interact with a kit. After Alderpaw and Needlepaw help the sisters meet up and see one another, she later vows she'll look out for Violetkit from then on. To which she does, Alderpaw finds out they've been playing more often together and getting closer, and even teaching her how to hunt, etc. It's noted that she's now genuinely fond of Violetkit as well. Ah, forgot to also mention that after the first spat between the apprentices and the warriors, Rowanstar purposely didn't want Needle hanging around Violet anymore. Accusing Needle of being a bad influence and telling Pinenose to look after her properly so she didn't turn out like the others. But sadly Pinoenose obviously was more eager to get back to her warrior duties over looking after Violetkit, and even wanted to push her off to Grassheart instead. Considering her own foster mother showed little interest in her, it makes sense that she'd value Needlepaw more as a friend over others. Despite having foster siblings, she felt lonely cause they wouldn't play with her, and didn't have anyone else surprisingly, until Needlepaw visited more.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 21, 2021 13:44:52 GMT -5
Yeah, Needletail actually DID want to hurt or kill someone; Darktail. Now I know what you're thinking; "But Darktail was evil, that doesn't count!". Ah, but here's the problem. It's the timing. I'm not talking about her battle with Darktail to save Violetshine, I'm talking way earlier, when Rain battles against Darktail for leadership. Here, Needletail is shown cheering the fight on with gusto. At this point in time, per Needletail's own choices, Darktail is her leader(and a better leader than Rowanstar going by her choices), yet she was fast to turn on him and encourage her boyfriend to kill or cripple him. The fact that she happened to be fortunate enough that her boyfriend was attacking a cat who WAS very evil and twisted does not change the fact that she supported it without moral consideration for that. Needletail didn't raise Violetshine at all, it's explicitly said she basically abandoned her and didn't even do anything with her during her early days in Shadowclan. Their relationship only took off once Violetshine became useful to Needletail as a pawn, beyond that they have pretty much no positive interactions up until Needletail's boyfriend dies, at which point she seems to finally realize Darktail's a bad guy and she messed up. It makes sense for her to cheer on someone that was practically her mate over Darktail though. This is how rogues settle things, not Clan cats. Darktail did it with Rowanstar, challenging him, and Rowanstar lost. Rain attempted to challenge Darktail, and likewise lost as well, other than that there really wasn't any other situations similar to this, unless you want to count her fighting against her enemies? As for the second notion. After a bit of time, when Alderpaw goes to ShadowClan, he talks to Needlepaw about Violetkit, asking how she was doing, and Needlepaw replies that she doesn't know, and that she's a kit that spends time in the nursery, as kits do. Alderpaw encourages to her to try and play with Violetkit, like he does with Twigkit, even though Needlepaw is annoyed since she wants to focus on her apprenticeship. While he was there, she comes up with the idea to visit her, so they both went to see her in the nursery, and later Needlepaw becomes thoughtful at the idea of visiting more, liking that Violet was so talkative. Imo it seems more like an apprentice who doesn't know how to interact with a kit. After Alderpaw and Needlepaw help the sisters meet up and see one another, she later vows she'll look out for Violetkit from then on. To which she does, Alderpaw finds out they've been playing more often together and getting closer, and even teaching her how to hunt, etc. It's noted that she's now genuinely fond of Violetkit as well. Ah, forgot to also mention that after the first spat between the apprentices and the warriors, Rowanstar purposely didn't want Needle hanging around Violet anymore. Accusing Needle of being a bad influence and telling Pinenose to look after her properly so she didn't turn out like the others. But sadly Pinoenose obviously was more eager to get back to her warrior duties over looking after Violetkit, and even wanted to push her off to Grassheart instead. Considering her own foster mother showed little interest in her, it makes sense that she'd value Needlepaw more as a friend over others. Despite having foster siblings, she felt lonely cause they wouldn't play with her, and didn't have anyone else surprisingly, until Needlepaw visited more. Rogues settling things via a thunderdome cage match isn't good though. Just because some rogue groups do it doesn't mean that she gets a blank check on the morality of it. Especially when Darktail was a leader she endorsed and clearly thought of as being good before she stabbed him in the back. Her only objection to it was that her side lost, otherwise she seemed totally fine in principle with having the leader she supported for quite some time be injured or killed. One could even argue she'd have participated in it, since we see her lurking near the fight and only retreats when it's clear Darktail isn't losing. We have different opinions on Needletail's mindset during her interactions. You chalk it up to her just not talking to her until she gets how, but to me it comes off like she realized Needlekit was a useful pawn and a way to act out. Your mileage may vary on this since we don't have Needle's perspective.
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Post by Aqua on Apr 21, 2021 14:24:18 GMT -5
It makes sense for her to cheer on someone that was practically her mate over Darktail though. This is how rogues settle things, not Clan cats. Darktail did it with Rowanstar, challenging him, and Rowanstar lost. Rain attempted to challenge Darktail, and likewise lost as well, other than that there really wasn't any other situations similar to this, unless you want to count her fighting against her enemies? As for the second notion. After a bit of time, when Alderpaw goes to ShadowClan, he talks to Needlepaw about Violetkit, asking how she was doing, and Needlepaw replies that she doesn't know, and that she's a kit that spends time in the nursery, as kits do. Alderpaw encourages to her to try and play with Violetkit, like he does with Twigkit, even though Needlepaw is annoyed since she wants to focus on her apprenticeship. While he was there, she comes up with the idea to visit her, so they both went to see her in the nursery, and later Needlepaw becomes thoughtful at the idea of visiting more, liking that Violet was so talkative. Imo it seems more like an apprentice who doesn't know how to interact with a kit. After Alderpaw and Needlepaw help the sisters meet up and see one another, she later vows she'll look out for Violetkit from then on. To which she does, Alderpaw finds out they've been playing more often together and getting closer, and even teaching her how to hunt, etc. It's noted that she's now genuinely fond of Violetkit as well. Ah, forgot to also mention that after the first spat between the apprentices and the warriors, Rowanstar purposely didn't want Needle hanging around Violet anymore. Accusing Needle of being a bad influence and telling Pinenose to look after her properly so she didn't turn out like the others. But sadly Pinoenose obviously was more eager to get back to her warrior duties over looking after Violetkit, and even wanted to push her off to Grassheart instead. Considering her own foster mother showed little interest in her, it makes sense that she'd value Needlepaw more as a friend over others. Despite having foster siblings, she felt lonely cause they wouldn't play with her, and didn't have anyone else surprisingly, until Needlepaw visited more. Rogues settling things via a thunderdome cage match isn't good though. Just because some rogue groups do it doesn't mean that she gets a blank check on the morality of it. Especially when Darktail was a leader she endorsed and clearly thought of as being good before she stabbed him in the back. Her only objection to it was that her side lost, otherwise she seemed totally fine in principle with having the leader she supported for quite some time be injured or killed. One could even argue she'd have participated in it, since we see her lurking near the fight and only retreats when it's clear Darktail isn't losing. We have different opinions on Needletail's mindset during her interactions. You chalk it up to her just not talking to her until she gets how, but to me it comes off like she realized Needlekit was a useful pawn and a way to act out. Your mileage may vary on this since we don't have Needle's perspective. This is why I believe we need a novella on Needletail to truly understand her. She should have had a PoV replacing Alderheart's or Violetshine's.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 21, 2021 14:55:20 GMT -5
It makes sense for her to cheer on someone that was practically her mate over Darktail though. This is how rogues settle things, not Clan cats. Darktail did it with Rowanstar, challenging him, and Rowanstar lost. Rain attempted to challenge Darktail, and likewise lost as well, other than that there really wasn't any other situations similar to this, unless you want to count her fighting against her enemies? As for the second notion. After a bit of time, when Alderpaw goes to ShadowClan, he talks to Needlepaw about Violetkit, asking how she was doing, and Needlepaw replies that she doesn't know, and that she's a kit that spends time in the nursery, as kits do. Alderpaw encourages to her to try and play with Violetkit, like he does with Twigkit, even though Needlepaw is annoyed since she wants to focus on her apprenticeship. While he was there, she comes up with the idea to visit her, so they both went to see her in the nursery, and later Needlepaw becomes thoughtful at the idea of visiting more, liking that Violet was so talkative. Imo it seems more like an apprentice who doesn't know how to interact with a kit. After Alderpaw and Needlepaw help the sisters meet up and see one another, she later vows she'll look out for Violetkit from then on. To which she does, Alderpaw finds out they've been playing more often together and getting closer, and even teaching her how to hunt, etc. It's noted that she's now genuinely fond of Violetkit as well. Ah, forgot to also mention that after the first spat between the apprentices and the warriors, Rowanstar purposely didn't want Needle hanging around Violet anymore. Accusing Needle of being a bad influence and telling Pinenose to look after her properly so she didn't turn out like the others. But sadly Pinoenose obviously was more eager to get back to her warrior duties over looking after Violetkit, and even wanted to push her off to Grassheart instead. Considering her own foster mother showed little interest in her, it makes sense that she'd value Needlepaw more as a friend over others. Despite having foster siblings, she felt lonely cause they wouldn't play with her, and didn't have anyone else surprisingly, until Needlepaw visited more. Rogues settling things via a thunderdome cage match isn't good though. Just because some rogue groups do it doesn't mean that she gets a blank check on the morality of it. Especially when Darktail was a leader she endorsed and clearly thought of as being good before she stabbed him in the back. Her only objection to it was that her side lost, otherwise she seemed totally fine in principle with having the leader she supported for quite some time be injured or killed. One could even argue she'd have participated in it, since we see her lurking near the fight and only retreats when it's clear Darktail isn't losing. We have different opinions on Needletail's mindset during her interactions. You chalk it up to her just not talking to her until she gets how, but to me it comes off like she realized Needlekit was a useful pawn and a way to act out. Your mileage may vary on this since we don't have Needle's perspective. Fair point, I suppose it comes down to perspective.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 21, 2021 22:39:13 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair for people to compare Breezepelt to Needletail. Needletail didn't even get a chance to live a life, whereas Breezepelt actually did. This also frustrates me because Breezepelt doesn't really even deserve to gets rewarded for the crap he's done. He's got a mate and a family and a life in his clan again, when he knew what was going on in the DF, nearly killed several cats and got away with it, yet he gets a chance to live happily and free from all the shit he's done. But Needletail on the other hand, didn't even get a chance to LIVE. She won't ever get a mate or have kits, or even see Violetshine again. She died the moment she realized she was wrong by sacrificing her own life. Nobody's saying she's an angel, but I don't think people should compare Breezepelt's redemption to hers. ESPECIALLY when Needletail wasn't even malicious like he was. Needletail was simply a little brat who went the wrong way, and nothing more. Breezepelt has a chance to redeem himself because he's alive with a more positive influence in his life; Needletail lost everything after she realized she was wrong, and paid with her life before she got a chance to properly redeem herself. You guys really can't say Breezepelt's redemption was better when Needletail didn't even get a chance to redeem herself properly while she was alive lol. It's not a fair comparison. Plus they were both written differently. They're not the same cats. But her death was supposed to be her redemption, except when we see her after she dies, it's clear she hasn't learned anything at all. So, no. She didn't really realize she was in the wrong. She pushed all the blame onto Rowanstar Needletail not getting to live a full life is totally her fault. If Breezepelt had died, I would have said he made his bed too but he got lucky in that arena and she didn't. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Either way, I still find Needletail more insufferable than Breezepelt. Breezepelt is a stupid, edgy teenager who never accomplished much while Needletail was the primary reason Shadowclan fell apart for a time.
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Needletail
Apr 21, 2021 22:44:10 GMT -5
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Post by Aqua on Apr 21, 2021 22:44:10 GMT -5
I don't think it's fair for people to compare Breezepelt to Needletail. Needletail didn't even get a chance to live a life, whereas Breezepelt actually did. This also frustrates me because Breezepelt doesn't really even deserve to gets rewarded for the crap he's done. He's got a mate and a family and a life in his clan again, when he knew what was going on in the DF, nearly killed several cats and got away with it, yet he gets a chance to live happily and free from all the shit he's done. But Needletail on the other hand, didn't even get a chance to LIVE. She won't ever get a mate or have kits, or even see Violetshine again. She died the moment she realized she was wrong by sacrificing her own life. Nobody's saying she's an angel, but I don't think people should compare Breezepelt's redemption to hers. ESPECIALLY when Needletail wasn't even malicious like he was. Needletail was simply a little brat who went the wrong way, and nothing more. Breezepelt has a chance to redeem himself because he's alive with a more positive influence in his life; Needletail lost everything after she realized she was wrong, and paid with her life before she got a chance to properly redeem herself. You guys really can't say Breezepelt's redemption was better when Needletail didn't even get a chance to redeem herself properly while she was alive lol. It's not a fair comparison. Plus they were both written differently. They're not the same cats. But her death was supposed to be her redemption, except when we see her after she dies, it's clear she hasn't learned anything at all. So, no. She didn't really realize she was in the wrong. She pushed all the blame onto Rowanstar Needletail not getting to live a full life is totally her fault. If Breezepelt had died, I would have said he made his bed too but he got lucky in that arena and she didn't. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Either way, I still find Needletail more insufferable than Breezepelt. Breezepelt is a stupid, edgy teenager who never accomplished much while Needletail was the primary reason Shadowclan fell apart for a time. She was literally on her own deathbed with Darktail threatening to kill her or Violetshine. She stalled Sleekwhisker and someone else (Darktail?) just so her friend can live. It's not her fault. It's no different than Stonefur's own demise, and I don't see anyone blaming him for being "at fault" with his own death. I don't understand how she's worse. Breezepelt wanted to kill everyone and was at everyone's mercy with his own Clan rightfully hating him for what he did tbh. Needletail was just a rebellious teen who didn't like the rules, but again, this is just my own opinion and how I view her. Everyone else has their own.
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Needletail
Apr 21, 2021 22:46:39 GMT -5
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Post by Aqua on Apr 21, 2021 22:46:39 GMT -5
Needletail not living a better life wasn't really her fault either. She was pretty young and naive at the time, trusting the other outsiders more than her own clan, and at the time I think she felt like she belonged there so it's understandable why she stayed, even if her reasons were questionable. I can't blame her for not wanting to be in ShadowClan for how they treated her and some of their OWN warriors.
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Needletail
Apr 21, 2021 22:47:27 GMT -5
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Post by Aqua on Apr 21, 2021 22:47:27 GMT -5
And that's what most people forget about her. She was YOUNG when she died. She was even YOUNGER after she left her clan. I don't think it's fair to hold something against a cat who did stupid things when they were younger. So obviously, she's not gonna mature right away.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 21, 2021 22:48:22 GMT -5
But her death was supposed to be her redemption, except when we see her after she dies, it's clear she hasn't learned anything at all. So, no. She didn't really realize she was in the wrong. She pushed all the blame onto Rowanstar Needletail not getting to live a full life is totally her fault. If Breezepelt had died, I would have said he made his bed too but he got lucky in that arena and she didn't. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Either way, I still find Needletail more insufferable than Breezepelt. Breezepelt is a stupid, edgy teenager who never accomplished much while Needletail was the primary reason Shadowclan fell apart for a time. She was literally on her own deathbed with Darktail threatening to kill her or Violetshine. She stalled Sleekwhisker and someone else (Darktail?) just so her friend can live. It's not her fault. It's no different than Stonefur's own demise, and I don't see anyone blaming him for being "at fault" with his own death. I don't understand how she's worse. Breezepelt wanted to kill everyone and was at everyone's mercy with his own Clan rightfully hating him for what he did tbh. Needletail was just a rebellious teen who didn't like the rules, but again, this is just my own opinion and how I view her. Everyone else has their own. Comparing Stonefur and Needletail is honestly offensive. Stonefur sacrificed his life after his leader betrayed everything. He was not part of Tigerstar taking over, he'd had no choice in the matter. Needletail brought Darktail and helped him take over her clan. She died trying to fix what she had started. You don't get to be a martyr fixing your own mistakes.
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