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Post by Rainsplash on Apr 11, 2021 23:49:03 GMT -5
She was a good character until she got a redemption only by sacrificing herself. Redemption cats' crimes should be spoken out and get resolved. That's why Breezepelt and Needletail's redemptions are trash. I am still so very pissed off that Violetshine named her daughter after Needletail, when Needletail clearly used her and put in danger. Needletail only did kind things to her when she felt good. Tell me, does a good person send a kit out to tell her boyfriend don't be angry, I'm punished! Does a good person stir up a rebellion with her friends and put all blame to Rowanstar?
This character I can love to hate, but her being acknowledged as a somewhat "good" and "sacrificing lovely" character pisses me off so much. So much. She doesn't pay any attention to Violetkit until Alderpaw points it out, and she says, It would be good to have a kit following me around. Cool, huh?
Her character is so hate, and I can't even love her as an antagonist, because her crimes are never spoken out and she gets someone named after her.
Someone needs to give the Erins a lecture on how to write good redemptions.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 12, 2021 0:27:35 GMT -5
Breezepelt's redemption is still better than Needletail's. At least there are many members of his clan who refuse to forgive him. He's suffered consequences and ostracization
Needletail gets painted as some sort of martyr
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Bisexual
#FF00EC
Name Colour
BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ
Villain Enjoyer
Currently sick with the flu...
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Post by BҽɾɾყႦʅσσɱ on Apr 12, 2021 10:10:56 GMT -5
Needletail is someone who just couldn't stop being a rebel even after she died, if the prologue scene in River of Fire is anything to go by.
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Post by mymerlincat on Apr 13, 2021 16:22:27 GMT -5
Never quite understood why people consider her evil or a villain
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 13, 2021 16:41:43 GMT -5
Breezepelt actually learned something from his redemption and tried to be loyal for his Clan. It was more realistic, because not many cats forgave him and that won't happen any time soon. Some cats even want him dead. Needletail on the other hand, played nice for a couple of minutes and then began trash-talking again once in StarClan. She never changed.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 13, 2021 20:27:37 GMT -5
She's one of my favorite characters, but her redemption could've been handled better. That said, we shouldn't really discredit the good she did do either, such as helping Alderheart and Mothwing and giving her food to the RiverClan cats. And of course, she also sacrificed her life for Violetshine.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 13, 2021 20:33:58 GMT -5
She's one of my favorite characters, but her redemption could've been handled better. That said, we shouldn't really discredit the good she did do either, such as helping Alderheart and Mothwing and giving her food to the RiverClan cats. And of course, she also sacrificed her life for Violetshine. Eh. I don’t really count her saving Violetshine as all that great of an act when she spent moons abusing, manipulating and gaslighting Violetshine when she didn’t do everything Needletail wanted her to. Honestly Needletail wouldn’t have changed her mind and helped anyone had Rain not died either, from what I saw. She helped the Riverclan cats, sure, but saving a cat she treated like her object or trophy never sat well with me as a good deed she did.
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Post by vectoring34 on Apr 13, 2021 21:48:10 GMT -5
Never quite understood why people consider her evil or a villain She's as much a villain as the likes of Rainflower, probably more so since in addition to treating the kit dependent on her like spit she also conspires to destroy her clan.
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Post by cable on Apr 14, 2021 2:10:08 GMT -5
Never quite understood why people consider her evil or a villain She's as much a villain as the likes of Rainflower, probably more so since in addition to treating the kit dependent on her like spit she also conspires to destroy her clan. - helps seperate violetshine from her sister at a young age in very traumatizing fashion - dumps her on pinenose, who clearly isnt interested in her, and then proceeds to ignore her for weeks before finally giving her attention when its convenient to her - helps bring in rogues who she knows are morally bankrupt and willing to let their own starve and die - sends violetkit out into the woods in the middle of the night to pass a message for her, something that could have gotten violet literally killed - when violet tried to get away from the clearly dangerous kin, she guilt-tripped her by manipulating the trauma she literally helped instill in violetshine shes definitely in the same category as rainflower. i only like her as an antagonist and honestly id prefer if she hadnt been “redeemed”.
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Post by crowspirit on Apr 14, 2021 4:11:39 GMT -5
Before River of Fire, I considered her to be one of my favourite characters. I still don't think she's evil or a villain, just a rebellious teenager who went way too far. Her redemption in Shattered Sky and Darkest Night was okay, Needletail realized that she was horribly wrong, gave her food to the RiverClan prisoners, saved Violetshine and led her to Tree. That's okay, and I think she deserves StarClan. But in River of Fire however, her personality completely changed again and she blamed Rowanclaw for everything, when in the past two books, she knew that she herself was wrong. This destroyed her character for me, and also the fact that Violetshine still doesn't realize that Needletail was a very toxic friend.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Apr 15, 2021 13:05:15 GMT -5
Loved her death scene but god, she was still playing the blame game after death
I legit hate her besides that one moment
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 15, 2021 16:32:21 GMT -5
She's one of my favorite characters, but her redemption could've been handled better. That said, we shouldn't really discredit the good she did do either, such as helping Alderheart and Mothwing and giving her food to the RiverClan cats. And of course, she also sacrificed her life for Violetshine. Eh. I don’t really count her saving Violetshine as all that great of an act when she spent moons abusing, manipulating and gaslighting Violetshine when she didn’t do everything Needletail wanted her to. Honestly Needletail wouldn’t have changed her mind and helped anyone had Rain not died either, from what I saw. She helped the Riverclan cats, sure, but saving a cat she treated like her object or trophy never sat well with me as a good deed she did. Not excusing her behavior, but ShadowClan in general treated Violetshine like a trophy or an object to be coveted. And Rowanstar so easily threw her away to a group of rogues and rebels despite being the one to threaten a fight if he didn't get one of the kits. He, and the rest of ShadowClan, are just as guilty. However the difference here is that Rowan and the older warriors, are seasoned characters, much older and honestly should have a much better moral compass than younger children that they're supposed to be teaching. Needletail herself wasn't much older than Violetshine at the time, she was still an apprentice when they found her, and only got her warrior name because she gave one to herself early. She was still the equivalent of a young adult doing dumb things and being in a crowd of horrible people. Darktail manipulated her, and other younger cats that came to despise the warrior code, and then in the end sided with them. However, Rain's death was a wake up call for her, and it's unfortunate it took that long for her to realize that. Needletail was practically left to raise Violetshine when she herself had zero experience in doing such, and was a product of her environment as much as Violetshine was. Even Violetshine's adopted mother in ShadowClan lacked any actual empathy for her adopted daughter, and made Violetshine feel isolated, which is why she clung to Needletail so much. Even more so because of her sister leaving her periodically or expecting her to have feelings for their actual mother who she never built an emotional connection with. Violetshine and Needletail's relationship was obviously not healthy. But it doesn't mean that Needletail didn't care about Violetshine either, because as some already pointed out, she wouldn't even have bothered to die for her the way she did if she didn't feel anything toward her. She could have easily taken the selfish way out, kill Violetshine and live herself, and live as a coward. But she didn't. Does this mean that Violetshine can or should have fully forgave her? No, but it also doesn't invalidate that Needletail at least cared about Violetshine. And I'm saying this as someone who personally hates this trope; dying as a redemption, because it feels like a waste of character, from a writing view it kinda feels like the lazy way out. And it doesn't help that the Erins have done this three times over all in AVoS, and a lot in general. However, there's a saying: “Sometimes good people make bad choices. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It means they're human.” I don't think Needletail was a bad person but she did make bad choices. She was very flawed, but realistic. The same can be said for Breezepelt, who has similar circumstances as Needletail, but he at least had the opportunity for a redemption. Both Needletail and Breezepelt had circumstances from their younger times that affected how they turned out later, and unfortunately those that raised them didn't take responsibility, which in turn, they themselves didn't either and were easily manipulated. It's hard to expect a child to learn to take responsibility when the adult figures in their lives aren't doing it themselves. I personally don't strongly like, nor dislike Needletail, I'm neutral toward her, but I believe in a much better environment, I feel like things could have easily been different for both Violetshine and Needletail. I am frustrated with how they executed her character, she was interesting for a main character compared to the "morally good" or "morally bad" straight laced characters we usually get. But for them to kill her off so quickly, in the middle of the arc, feels like a waste. This also goes for Darktail, I feel that him dying so soon felt like a waste as well, and I think this is also why the second half of AVoS slows down significantly. But I suppose this is a lesson learned, hopefully the editors do a better job when writing "morally gray" characters as main characters in the future.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 15, 2021 16:44:04 GMT -5
Eh. I don’t really count her saving Violetshine as all that great of an act when she spent moons abusing, manipulating and gaslighting Violetshine when she didn’t do everything Needletail wanted her to. Honestly Needletail wouldn’t have changed her mind and helped anyone had Rain not died either, from what I saw. She helped the Riverclan cats, sure, but saving a cat she treated like her object or trophy never sat well with me as a good deed she did. Not excusing her behavior, but ShadowClan in general treated Violetshine like a trophy or an object to be coveted. And Rowanstar so easily threw her away to a group of rogues and rebels despite being the one to threaten a fight if he didn't get one of the kits. He, and the rest of ShadowClan, are just as guilty. However the difference here is that Rowan and the older warriors, are seasoned characters, much older and honestly should have a much better moral compass than younger children that they're supposed to be teaching. Needletail herself wasn't much older than Violetshine at the time, she was still an apprentice when they found her, and only got her warrior name because she gave one to herself early. She was still the equivalent of a young adult doing dumb things and being in a crowd of horrible people. Darktail manipulated her, and other younger cats that came to despise the warrior code, and then in the end sided with them. However, Rain's death was a wake up call for her, and it's unfortunate it took that long for her to realize that. Needletail was practically left to raise Violetshine when she herself had zero experience in doing such, and was a product of her environment as much as Violetshine was. Even Violetshine's adopted mother in ShadowClan lacked any actual empathy for her adopted daughter, and made Violetshine feel isolated, which is why she clung to Needletail so much. Even more so because of her sister leaving her periodically or expecting her to have feelings for their actual mother who she never built an emotional connection with. Violetshine and Needletail's relationship was obviously not healthy. But it doesn't mean that Needletail didn't care about Violetshine either, because as some already pointed out, she wouldn't even have bothered to die for her the way she did if she didn't feel anything toward her. She could have easily taken the selfish way out, kill Violetshine and live herself, and live as a coward. But she didn't. Does this mean that Violetshine can or should have fully forgave her? No, but it also doesn't invalidate that Needletail at least cared about Violetshine. And I'm saying this as someone who personally hates this trope; dying as a redemption, because it feels like a waste of character, from a writing view it kinda feels like the lazy way out. And it doesn't help that the Erins have done this three times over all in AVoS, and a lot in general. However, there's a saying: “Sometimes good people make bad choices. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It means they're human.” I don't think Needletail was a bad person but she did make bad choices. She was very flawed, but realistic. The same can be said for Breezepelt, who has similar circumstances as Needletail, but he at least had the opportunity for a redemption. Both Needletail and Breezepelt had circumstances from their younger times that affected how they turned out later, and unfortunately those that raised them didn't take responsibility, which in turn, they themselves didn't either and were easily manipulated. It's hard to expect a child to learn to take responsibility when the adult figures in their lives aren't doing it themselves. In a much better environment, I feel like things could have easily been different for both Violetshine and Needletail. I can see your argument, but it still doesn’t change the fact that she abused and gaslit Violetshine, and only ever seemed to care for her when it was convenient. I honestly don’t really have much sympathy for Needletail’s past or upbringing when she’s actively hurting someone else like that. To me it felt like she sacrificed herself for a toy she liked and grew attached to...not genuinely for Violetshine. Then, she still goes on to place 100 percent of the blame on anybody but herself, so there’s even less of a reason for me to believe she changed or actually cared about anybody but herself in the end. Bad upbringing and environment doesn’t change the fact that she did abuse another cat. She doesn’t get any of my sympathy for that. She really doesn’t.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 15, 2021 19:38:17 GMT -5
She's one of my favorite characters, but her redemption could've been handled better. That said, we shouldn't really discredit the good she did do either, such as helping Alderheart and Mothwing and giving her food to the RiverClan cats. And of course, she also sacrificed her life for Violetshine. I mean...she had to do that good because she helped cause the bad. She helped Darktail take over Shadowclan, which led to her needing to do all of those things. I don't think she should get much credit for helping lessen the bad she created
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 15, 2021 20:27:09 GMT -5
Eh. I don’t really count her saving Violetshine as all that great of an act when she spent moons abusing, manipulating and gaslighting Violetshine when she didn’t do everything Needletail wanted her to. Honestly Needletail wouldn’t have changed her mind and helped anyone had Rain not died either, from what I saw. She helped the Riverclan cats, sure, but saving a cat she treated like her object or trophy never sat well with me as a good deed she did. Not excusing her behavior, but ShadowClan in general treated Violetshine like a trophy or an object to be coveted. And Rowanstar so easily threw her away to a group of rogues and rebels despite being the one to threaten a fight if he didn't get one of the kits. He, and the rest of ShadowClan, are just as guilty. However the difference here is that Rowan and the older warriors, are seasoned characters, much older and honestly should have a much better moral compass than younger children that they're supposed to be teaching. Needletail herself wasn't much older than Violetshine at the time, she was still an apprentice when they found her, and only got her warrior name because she gave one to herself early. She was still the equivalent of a young adult doing dumb things and being in a crowd of horrible people. Darktail manipulated her, and other younger cats that came to despise the warrior code, and then in the end sided with them. However, Rain's death was a wake up call for her, and it's unfortunate it took that long for her to realize that. Needletail was practically left to raise Violetshine when she herself had zero experience in doing such, and was a product of her environment as much as Violetshine was. Even Violetshine's adopted mother in ShadowClan lacked any actual empathy for her adopted daughter, and made Violetshine feel isolated, which is why she clung to Needletail so much. Even more so because of her sister leaving her periodically or expecting her to have feelings for their actual mother who she never built an emotional connection with. Violetshine and Needletail's relationship was obviously not healthy. But it doesn't mean that Needletail didn't care about Violetshine either, because as some already pointed out, she wouldn't even have bothered to die for her the way she did if she didn't feel anything toward her. She could have easily taken the selfish way out, kill Violetshine and live herself, and live as a coward. But she didn't. Does this mean that Violetshine can or should have fully forgave her? No, but it also doesn't invalidate that Needletail at least cared about Violetshine. And I'm saying this as someone who personally hates this trope; dying as a redemption, because it feels like a waste of character, from a writing view it kinda feels like the lazy way out. And it doesn't help that the Erins have done this three times over all in AVoS, and a lot in general. However, there's a saying: “Sometimes good people make bad choices. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It means they're human.” I don't think Needletail was a bad person but she did make bad choices. She was very flawed, but realistic. The same can be said for Breezepelt, who has similar circumstances as Needletail, but he at least had the opportunity for a redemption. Both Needletail and Breezepelt had circumstances from their younger times that affected how they turned out later, and unfortunately those that raised them didn't take responsibility, which in turn, they themselves didn't either and were easily manipulated. It's hard to expect a child to learn to take responsibility when the adult figures in their lives aren't doing it themselves. I personally don't strongly like, nor dislike Needletail, I'm neutral toward her, but I believe in a much better environment, I feel like things could have easily been different for both Violetshine and Needletail. I am frustrated with how they executed her character, she was interesting for a main character compared to the "morally good" or "morally bad" straight laced characters we usually get. But for them to kill her off so quickly, in the middle of the arc, feels like a waste. This also goes for Darktail, I feel that him dying so soon felt like a waste as well, and I think this is also why the second half of AVoS slows down significantly. But I suppose this is a lesson learned, hopefully the editors do a better job when writing "morally gray" characters as main characters in the future. Everything I meant to say, you hit it right on the nail! This is why I love Needletail so much, she's such an intriguing character to analyze. She'd only been an apprentice for literally a day before being taken by an owl, and just everything that occurred in her bonus scene would no doubt affect anyone in some way, Needletail just took it to a rather extreme case. And even then, the fact that she took on a warrior name and even tried to train Violetpaw herself shows that she still missed ShadowClan in some way. Her actions were terrible, there's no doubt about that, but I don't think it's completely fair to blame just her for ShadowClan's fall or Violetshine's terrible upbringing, when so many other factors were at play here. And if we consider the environment she grew up in, it's no wonder she had such a hardened personality. At least under Rowanstar's leadership, apprentices are apparently allowed to fight over prey and this is treated as a completely normal thing, warriors constantly gossip in front of their apprentices, and Snowbird has taught her kits that ShadowClan cats can say whatever they want. Keep in mind that Berryheart—Needletail's mother—is one of those kits, and there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have recieved the same talk. Berryheart also agreed with her daughter at one point during a certain infamous scene and was also from of the warriors to join Darktail even before he takes over ShadowClan. Cloverfoot, her sister goes along with her despite both of them having been warriors for seasons at this point, and I can't help but wonder if Needletail's behavior was more or less encouraged by her Clanmates until it started to become an issue for Rowanstar. As far as we know, she wasn't even punished for sneaking out and I don't think it's ever even implied either, through telling her Clan about the two kits no doubt helped as well. I also never understood why Rain's death being a wake-up call should be considered a bad thing, though maybe it's because I'm just so familiar with true crime cases that makes this so realistic for me. Sometimes when you lose someone, you don't want to do this certain thing anymore, and the same thing applies to people who join real gangs and cults. Needletail is no different. Rain was essentially her tether to the Kin, and without him, there was nothing left for her to keep up this delusion of hers any longer. And just because she blamed Rowanstar in ShadowClan doesn't necessarily make her sacrifices any less genuine, either. I also don't think she was really redeemed, or at least not in the way one would normally think of a redemption. Alderheart, Violetshine, and Tree still think highly of her, but that's because their last moments with her was of her trying to help them in some way. And even then, I'd argue that Violetshine's feeling have become far more complicated since AVoS now that much time has passed since then. An article on the website implies this, and she grew visibly uncomfortable when Tree mentioned her. Neither of her kits even knew who she was until they were older. To everyone else (or at least Tawnypelt) she's still a traitor. To me, Needletail seems like she regrets joining Darktail, but this doesn't necessarily equate to her regretting going against Rowanstar. Yellowfang was really the only cat who disagreed with blaming him before Shadowstar showed up, and she no longer considers herself ShadowClan anyway. And speaking of Rowanstar, I don't think it's completely fair to call him a victim, either. He's definitely sympathetic, but it's obvious ShadowClan has viewed him as a weak leader for awhile now, even before Darktail came around. I still believe this started with BrS, when ThunderClan kept helping them. We know ShadowClan to be a prideful Clan, and Rowanstar not being able to fix things on his own or keep his own mate from telling ThunderClan what was going on (never mind that this happens twice), at least as far as his Clanmates are concerned, would've no doubt affected his reputation during an already tumultuous time. Then things just kept getting worse from there. If we ever get a Rowanstar novella, I would love if it covered the time gap.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 15, 2021 20:55:17 GMT -5
She's one of my favorite characters, but her redemption could've been handled better. That said, we shouldn't really discredit the good she did do either, such as helping Alderheart and Mothwing and giving her food to the RiverClan cats. And of course, she also sacrificed her life for Violetshine. I mean...she had to do that good because she helped cause the bad. She helped Darktail take over Shadowclan, which led to her needing to do all of those things. I don't think she should get much credit for helping lessen the bad she created And I know that. I basically feel the same way about Breezepelt, so I know a few good deeds doesn't discount all the bad ones, especially where the audience is concerned, so it really all depends on how it's handled. But that's not what I'm saying. My point was more that I don't think she should be considered evil or ingenuine because of the bad she did, because she's alot more complex than that and this is shown through her actions. Needletail's not a black-and-white character, but a morally gray one, and that's what I like about her the most.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 15, 2021 20:55:30 GMT -5
Not excusing her behavior, but ShadowClan in general treated Violetshine like a trophy or an object to be coveted. And Rowanstar so easily threw her away to a group of rogues and rebels despite being the one to threaten a fight if he didn't get one of the kits. He, and the rest of ShadowClan, are just as guilty. However the difference here is that Rowan and the older warriors, are seasoned characters, much older and honestly should have a much better moral compass than younger children that they're supposed to be teaching.
Needletail herself wasn't much older than Violetshine at the time, she was still an apprentice when they found her, and only got her warrior name because she gave one to herself early. She was still the equivalent of a young adult doing dumb things and being in a crowd of horrible people. Darktail manipulated her, and other younger cats that came to despise the warrior code, and then in the end sided with them. However, Rain's death was a wake up call for her, and it's unfortunate it took that long for her to realize that.
Needletail was practically left to raise Violetshine when she herself had zero experience in doing such, and was a product of her environment as much as Violetshine was. Even Violetshine's adopted mother in ShadowClan lacked any actual empathy for her adopted daughter, and made Violetshine feel isolated, which is why she clung to Needletail so much. Even more so because of her sister leaving her periodically or expecting her to have feelings for their actual mother who she never built an emotional connection with.
Violetshine and Needletail's relationship was obviously not healthy. But it doesn't mean that Needletail didn't care about Violetshine either, because as some already pointed out, she wouldn't even have bothered to die for her the way she did if she didn't feel anything toward her. She could have easily taken the selfish way out, kill Violetshine and live herself, and live as a coward. But she didn't. Does this mean that Violetshine can or should have fully forgave her? No, but it also doesn't invalidate that Needletail at least cared about Violetshine. And I'm saying this as someone who personally hates this trope; dying as a redemption, because it feels like a waste of character, from a writing view it kinda feels like the lazy way out. And it doesn't help that the Erins have done this three times over all in AVoS, and a lot in general.
However, there's a saying: “Sometimes good people make bad choices. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It means they're human.”
I don't think Needletail was a bad person but she did make bad choices. She was very flawed, but realistic. The same can be said for Breezepelt, who has similar circumstances as Needletail, but he at least had the opportunity for a redemption. Both Needletail and Breezepelt had circumstances from their younger times that affected how they turned out later, and unfortunately those that raised them didn't take responsibility, which in turn, they themselves didn't either and were easily manipulated. It's hard to expect a child to learn to take responsibility when the adult figures in their lives aren't doing it themselves.
In a much better environment, I feel like things could have easily been different for both Violetshine and Needletail. I can see your argument, but it still doesn’t change the fact that she abused and gaslit Violetshine, and only ever seemed to care for her when it was convenient. I honestly don’t really have much sympathy for Needletail’s past or upbringing when she’s actively hurting someone else like that. To me it felt like she sacrificed herself for a toy she liked and grew attached to...not genuinely for Violetshine. Then, she still goes on to place 100 percent of the blame on anybody but herself, so there’s even less of a reason for me to believe she changed or actually cared about anybody but herself in the end. Bad upbringing and environment doesn’t change the fact that she did abuse another cat. She doesn’t get any of my sympathy for that. She really doesn’t. I disagree. Yes she didn't treat Violetshine the best way, but at the same time I doubt that Violetshine was just a toy to her in the end. If she were just a toy she would have easily just discarded her like one to save her own life. But that was not the case. She still obviously felt a type of sisterhood toward Violetshine, and vice versa. Even though it was an unhealthy sisterhood in the worst kind of environment, Needletail still valued Violetshine's life above her own enough to die for her in the end. She was given the choice, herself or Violetshine, and she chose the latter. Does this redeem her in my eyes? No. But I still acknowledge their relationship for what it was, both the good and bad. You can still have zero sympathy for a character but still acknowledge all sides to them too. I see the same when it comes to characters like Breezepelt, imo I had zero sympathy for him when it was revealed in DwS that he didn't regret a single thing he did. But it wasn't until CT, where he was given the chance to redeem himself, that he started to change for the better. Needletail won't have that chance now that she's dead, however, she does acknowledge that her actions were dumb and she trusted the wrong cat. The only person she still blamed for anything was Rowanstar, and honestly I partly agree with that. To solely blame the fall of ShadowClan on a single rebellious apprentice is a bit nonsensical. But to solely also blame it on Rowanstar, is almost not as good either. However, in the situation that's at hand, as a leader, Rowanstar holds most of the responsibility. When you look at a child acting out, you don't blame the child, you blame the parent or authority figure in charge of the said child. Doesn't mean that Needle is completely void of blame, like Breezepelt, but it does mean that there are characters that do hold more blame, like Rowan, and in Breezepelt's case that would be Crowfeather. If Needletail just randomly woke up and chose to be a horrible person that did horrible things, with zero genuinely good feats, and had zero sympathy for other cats, then yeah I would agree with you 100%. But that's not the case here imo, if anything that fits more akin to another character, like Sleekwhisker.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Apr 15, 2021 21:39:41 GMT -5
Not excusing her behavior, but ShadowClan in general treated Violetshine like a trophy or an object to be coveted. And Rowanstar so easily threw her away to a group of rogues and rebels despite being the one to threaten a fight if he didn't get one of the kits. He, and the rest of ShadowClan, are just as guilty. However the difference here is that Rowan and the older warriors, are seasoned characters, much older and honestly should have a much better moral compass than younger children that they're supposed to be teaching.
Needletail herself wasn't much older than Violetshine at the time, she was still an apprentice when they found her, and only got her warrior name because she gave one to herself early. She was still the equivalent of a young adult doing dumb things and being in a crowd of horrible people. Darktail manipulated her, and other younger cats that came to despise the warrior code, and then in the end sided with them. However, Rain's death was a wake up call for her, and it's unfortunate it took that long for her to realize that.
Needletail was practically left to raise Violetshine when she herself had zero experience in doing such, and was a product of her environment as much as Violetshine was. Even Violetshine's adopted mother in ShadowClan lacked any actual empathy for her adopted daughter, and made Violetshine feel isolated, which is why she clung to Needletail so much. Even more so because of her sister leaving her periodically or expecting her to have feelings for their actual mother who she never built an emotional connection with.
Violetshine and Needletail's relationship was obviously not healthy. But it doesn't mean that Needletail didn't care about Violetshine either, because as some already pointed out, she wouldn't even have bothered to die for her the way she did if she didn't feel anything toward her. She could have easily taken the selfish way out, kill Violetshine and live herself, and live as a coward. But she didn't. Does this mean that Violetshine can or should have fully forgave her? No, but it also doesn't invalidate that Needletail at least cared about Violetshine. And I'm saying this as someone who personally hates this trope; dying as a redemption, because it feels like a waste of character, from a writing view it kinda feels like the lazy way out. And it doesn't help that the Erins have done this three times over all in AVoS, and a lot in general.
However, there's a saying: “Sometimes good people make bad choices. It doesn't mean they are bad people. It means they're human.”
I don't think Needletail was a bad person but she did make bad choices. She was very flawed, but realistic. The same can be said for Breezepelt, who has similar circumstances as Needletail, but he at least had the opportunity for a redemption. Both Needletail and Breezepelt had circumstances from their younger times that affected how they turned out later, and unfortunately those that raised them didn't take responsibility, which in turn, they themselves didn't either and were easily manipulated. It's hard to expect a child to learn to take responsibility when the adult figures in their lives aren't doing it themselves.
I personally don't strongly like, nor dislike Needletail, I'm neutral toward her, but I believe in a much better environment, I feel like things could have easily been different for both Violetshine and Needletail. I am frustrated with how they executed her character, she was interesting for a main character compared to the "morally good" or "morally bad" straight laced characters we usually get. But for them to kill her off so quickly, in the middle of the arc, feels like a waste. This also goes for Darktail, I feel that him dying so soon felt like a waste as well, and I think this is also why the second half of AVoS slows down significantly.
But I suppose this is a lesson learned, hopefully the editors do a better job when writing "morally gray" characters as main characters in the future. Everything I meant to say, you hit it right on the nail! This is why I love Needletail so much, she's such an intriguing character to analyze. She'd only been an apprentice for literally a day before being taken by an owl, and just everything that occurred in her bonus scene would no doubt affect anyone in some way, Needletail just took it to a rather extreme case. And even then, the fact that she took on a warrior name and even tried to train Violetpaw herself shows that she still missed ShadowClan in some way. Her actions were terrible, there's no doubt about that, but I don't think it's completely fair to blame just her for ShadowClan's fall or Violetshine's terrible upbringing, when so many other factors were at play here. And if we consider the environment she grew up in, it's no wonder she had such a hardened personality. At least under Rowanstar's leadership, apprentices are apparently allowed to fight over prey and this is treated as a completely normal thing, warriors constantly gossip in front of their apprentices, and Snowbird has taught her kits that ShadowClan cats can say whatever they want. Keep in mind that Berryheart—Needletail's mother—is one of those kits, and there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have recieved the same talk. Berryheart also agreed with her daughter at one point during a certain infamous scene and was also from of the warriors to join Darktail even before he takes over ShadowClan. Cloverfoot, her sister goes along with her despite both of them having been warriors for seasons at this point, and I can't help but wonder if Needletail's behavior was more or less encouraged by her Clanmates until it started to become an issue for Rowanstar. As far as we know, she wasn't even punished for sneaking out and I don't think it's ever even implied either, through telling her Clan about the two kits no doubt helped as well. I also never understood why Rain's death being a wake-up call should be considered a bad thing, though maybe it's because I'm just so familiar with true crime cases that makes this so realistic for me. Sometimes when you lose someone, you don't want to do this certain thing anymore, and the same thing applies to people who join real gangs and cults. Needletail is no different. Rain was essentially her tether to the Kin, and without him, there was nothing left for her to keep up this delusion of hers any longer. And just because she blamed Rowanstar in ShadowClan doesn't necessarily make her sacrifices any less genuine, either. I also don't think she was really redeemed, or at least not in the way one would normally think of a redemption. Alderheart, Violetshine, and Tree still think highly of her, but that's because their last moments with her was of her trying to help them in some way. And even then, I'd argue that Violetshine's feeling have become far more complicated since AVoS now that much time has passed since then. An article on the website implies this, and she grew visibly uncomfortable when Tree mentioned her. Neither of her kits even knew who she was until they were older. To everyone else (or at least Tawnypelt) she's still a traitor. To me, Needletail seems like she regrets joining Darktail, but this doesn't necessarily equate to her regretting going against Rowanstar. Yellowfang was really the only cat who disagreed with blaming him before Shadowstar showed up, and she no longer considers herself ShadowClan anyway. And speaking of Rowanstar, I don't think it's completely fair to call him a victim, either. He's definitely sympathetic, but it's obvious ShadowClan has viewed him as a weak leader for awhile now, even before Darktail came around. I still believe this started with BrS, when ThunderClan kept helping them. We know ShadowClan to be a prideful Clan, and Rowanstar not being able to fix things on his own or keep his own mate from telling ThunderClan what was going on (never mind that this happens twice), at least as far as his Clanmates are concerned, would've no doubt affected his reputation during an already tumultuous time. Then things just kept getting worse from there. If we ever get a Rowanstar novella, I would love if it covered the time gap. I agree with most of your statements here. The owl incident is such a vital piece of information for Needletail's character, and it's a real shame that it was an exclusive chapter to certain copies. It shows things from Needletail's point of view, and how she was eager to be a ShadowClan warrior and serve her clan. Only for her to be snatched up on day one and almost killed. If not for Tree, she wouldn't even have made it back home, but I can understand how numbing it must be to see how quickly everyone had moved on after she supposedly died. They didn't even bother trying to look for her, to possibly save her, and just went, "Whelp guess she's dead, time to move on." Like...?? That's kinda messed up. When Snowkit was taken, Swiftpaw and Brackenfur sped out of camp to try and track it, in hopes they could catch it or in case Snowkit was dropped. ShadowClan just kinda shrugged and left it at that. I remember re-reading the chapter and noticing how scared Needlepaw was, she was even trying to stick close to Tawnypelt to the point that Tawny had to irritably nudged her away. Like Tawnypelt reassured her she was going to be safe, then not even a few minutes later she gets talons in her side and lifted into the air like prey. Then being ready to accept her own death by falling after she fought against the owl to get free....she went through something traumatic, it's an absolute miracle she even survived any of it. Honestly, it makes me wish they had explored Tawny and Needle's relationship more...she had so much faith in Tawnypelt coming to find her, along with a patrol. And it's kinda painful to think about.... As for the other things that led to ShadowClan's downfall, I agree as well. It was to the point where even elders were telling younger cats gossip. Warriors would try to talk to Rowan about it, but it doesn't seem like he paid them any mind. And Rowan himself admits to being aware of them breaking codes but doing nothing about it either. It was just highly dysfunctional, and Darktail was just the tipping point if anything. The apprentices even told Alder and Spark that Rowan didn't know what to do with all of them, so things were leading up to the downfall for a while now. And as you pointed out, Needletail still kept Clan morals while she was with the kin, even before they took over the camp. She was still doing her part and hunting, and patrolling, and got annoyed when the other apprentices slacked off. I think that it wasn't that she truly hated the clan or anything like that, but she wanted them to be stronger and more open to outsiders. She wanted Tree to join but her clan sent him away for being a loner and she felt that Tawny wasn't very open-minded at all. And when Rowan was sending away the rogues later, this is also the point where she decided to side with them now, officially rebelling against Rowan. I wonder if Rain's death is also another reason why she decided to sacrifice herself for Violetshine. After his death she fell into a depression, it was even noted by Violetshine that she wasn't eating or barely had any energy to do anything. In a situation where she might have lost another person that was important to her, she was at least able to prevent that, and died for Violetshine in the end. And you're right, not everyone sees her as a hero, to many she's still deemed a traitor, just like how many cats haven't forgave Breezepelt for his part in the DF war. Which to me, is pretty realistic.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 15, 2021 21:52:39 GMT -5
Needletail was unfortunately one of those characters that had to learn everything from first-hand experience and personal, direct injury. She certainly lacked empathy, or at least had a very narrow range to whom her empathy extended-- she was fine with elders fending for themselves, the Kin leaving the sick to die, etc. until it directly affected someone she was attached to (Rain).
It makes for a complex character which is sadly realistic.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 15, 2021 22:44:42 GMT -5
Agree to disagree on this one. I just have zero care or sympathy for Needletail as a character and I honestly never will. I’m too tired to write an essay on my thoughts on her, so needless to say, her sacrifice is not meaningful to me, nor is her supposed sisterly feelings for the cat she abused. Plenty of cats were responsible, but she took 0 responsibility and admission for her own parts she played, so she had no change in the end for me. Agree to disagree.
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Post by Moonblazer on Apr 15, 2021 22:49:22 GMT -5
I don’t think Needletail’s evil or anything like that. But she’s hot garbage either way to me, and nothing about her character was ever complex or amazing to me. I’m glad she isn’t in the series spotlight anymore, she made me feel disgusted constantly.
Would have been better had she and Rain just left and become loners we never see again tbh, instead of some half-assed redemption death and then blaming everyone else for something she helped cause.
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Post by Rio on Apr 16, 2021 5:12:32 GMT -5
Bad choices make for interesting characters.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Apr 16, 2021 13:12:11 GMT -5
Even if Needletail had a bad environment around her, she makes me very uncomfortable for her treatment over Violetshine, wich was blatantly abusive and manipulative. Putting her treatment of Violetshine aside, her attitude grated on my nerves from the start and she never improved either, after death.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 16, 2021 14:59:12 GMT -5
Even if Needletail had a bad environment around her, she makes me very uncomfortable for her treatment over Violetshine, wich was blatantly abusive and manipulative. Putting her treatment of Violetshine aside, her attitude grated on my nerves from the start and she never improved either, after death. Even then, how bad was her environment really? A lot of the complaints of the time was that Shadowclan was no longer ~respected and feared~
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Apr 16, 2021 16:03:05 GMT -5
Needletail made me very uncomfortable in the books. She was a terrible friend to Violetshine, and her "redemption" was awful. All the ShadowClan apprentices from AVoS were insufferable.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Apr 16, 2021 18:51:03 GMT -5
Needletail made me very uncomfortable in the books. She was a terrible friend to Violetshine, and her "redemption" was awful. All the ShadowClan apprentices from AVoS were insufferable. The apprentices and Scorchfur
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Apr 16, 2021 18:56:13 GMT -5
i only read the fourth apprentice once and a long time ago, but what bothers me about needletail and the other shadowclan apprentices is that we were never really given a reason for why that "batch" of young cats turned out so bad? like i can understand every clan having a rebellious apprentice crop up here and there, but pretty much an entire generation of a whole clan decided the warrior code was stupid for seemingly no reason. like i dont remember there being much character motivation to explain why, and it seems very odd considering very few apprentices in the past have ever so heavily rejected the code they were raised with since birth (and never so many all at once).
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Post by halogen on Apr 16, 2021 21:37:17 GMT -5
I feel like people are too hung up on the need for any character who is morally ambiguous, does both good and bad things, or regrets their actions to fit into the "perfect redemption arc" mold, where basically such character either has to be purely evil or conduct themselves in just the right manner to get their audience's forgiveness, or else they are "badly written". If they can't follow all the exact right paint-by-numbers steps to redemption, than it's better for them to show no sign of guilt or no good side at all, because the second they start having that they are trying to be a redemption arc and failing. But real life is messier than that, and is filled with bad people doing good things and good people doing bad things in ways that don't fit a neat redemption arc, and they don't have to fit that; I don't see why the fact that Needletail did good things in her life and realized things she went wrong, but yet never atoned fully for everything and made it up to everyone makes her badly written, unless you are seeing the only potential for good character arcs to be in the binary of pure villain/redemption or want her story to be something that it's not. Honestly I think the whole obsession with perfect redemption arcs and best redemption arcs and are they fully redeemed or not is toxic and destructive to the ability to write complex character arcs with twists and turns that, yes, might involve a character regretting their actions and trying to do better.
Concerning the use of killing off a character as redemption, I do think that's contrived in a lot of circumstances, where it feels like as soon as the character is trying to do better, the narrative goes out of its way to kill them off for no reason other than it's the lazy way out. Like an example of it being badly done is Hollyleaf, who according to the authors was specifically selected to die in the battle with the Dark Forest out of all of the cats they could have selected because she couldn't have a happy ending, and the authors were too lazy to have her confront her past actions the hard way by revealing how she killed Ashfur. Needletail seems like a different case here, though, since the reason she was in such a dangerous situation that ultimately killed her was entirely because of her own actions. Her death was the logical consequence of those actions rather than laser-guided death coming to pick her off for trying to be a better cat, when there is no reason besides that out-of-universe one for it being her to die and not something else. I feel like a character who has done bad things dying in some heroic way is not always a bad or lazy trope, it can be very powerful if done well, the ways it is a problem is if the narrative goes out of its way to kill them because it's easier than taking other directions with their arc (i.e Hollyleaf).
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 17, 2021 0:12:58 GMT -5
Honestly I think the whole obsession with perfect redemption arcs and best redemption arcs and are they fully redeemed or not is toxic and destructive to the ability to write complex character arcs with twists and turns that, yes, might involve a character regretting their actions and trying to do better. I kinda blame Avatar, tbh, much as I loved the show (and still do). When it comes to media in general, I feel like it set the standards for redemption arcs too high. Everyone wants to write the next Zuko, but either the execution comes out rushed or the character must completely regret their actions in order to be considered redeemed. But with characters like Needletail, sometimes it's alot more complicated than that (it's part of why I love Skystar as well). Like I said in my post, it seems like she regrets joining Darktail, but clearly has no regrets going up against Rowanstar at all if her comment in RoF is anything to go by. Needletail never really seemed like the type of character who cared about what other cats thought of her with the exception of Rain and Violetshine. She redeemed herself in her "sister's" eyes, and even then, it seems like Violetshine's feelings towards her have become complicated the more time has passed.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Apr 17, 2021 1:15:12 GMT -5
Even if Needletail had a bad environment around her, she makes me very uncomfortable for her treatment over Violetshine, wich was blatantly abusive and manipulative. Putting her treatment of Violetshine aside, her attitude grated on my nerves from the start and she never improved either, after death. Even then, how bad was her environment really? A lot of the complaints of the time was that Shadowclan was no longer ~respected and feared~ To say it was just mostly complaining is a pretty big understatement imo. An environment doesn't have to be considered bad by its inhabitants in order to still be seen as toxic. If you actually look at the ShadowClan that we see under Rowanstar's leadership, we see a Clan that prides itself to adamantly on the importance of independence that it ends up leading to conflict. We have warriors gossiping in front of their apprentices to the point of the apprentices clearly picking up on it:
We have apprentices fighting over prey with unsheathed claws and the mentors doing absolutely nothing about it:
We have a Clan quickly assuming one of their own is dead after being taken by an owl (regardless of the intention, this clearly affected Needletail negatively:
It's probably worth mentioning that Tawnypelt was also being somewhat short with Needlepaw on occasion during the latter's first night hunt:
Neither Rowanstar nor the mentors wished to take responsibility for such unruly behavior:
The elders told the apprentices of the Clans:
Crowfrost (unintentionally or not) insulted his own kits:
Snowbird apparently told her kits that they can say whatever they like:
And even Berryheart—also a kit of Snowbird as well as Needletail's mother—agreed with her daughter when it came to WindClan after Rowanstar turned away prey the Kin had caught:
And don't get me started on how this all affected Violetshine. Point is, it's all very psychological. And okay, one or two unruly apprentices is nothing, but an entire generation? And not only that, but both Berryheart and Cloverfoot—cats that have been warriors for seasons at this point—even joined the Kin even before Darktail took over. There was clearly a problem that no one really wanted to address. The apprentices are in charge of their own actions, sure, but let's not pretend the adults didn't play some sort of role in how they turned out, either.
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