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Post by cable on Mar 26, 2021 21:44:03 GMT -5
cheating is bad, calling your dead children “mistakes” before theyre even in the ground is horrifically cruel, and he never showed a hint of grief or even bothered to learn their namesI imagine that was a defensive and self-preserving tactic to try and get over it as soon as possible. that doesnt make what he did less horrible. like i said, he didnt deserve to be murdered, but hes very much not innocent either (not to mention he also broke the code, yet people never give him grief over it)
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Post by cable on Mar 26, 2021 21:45:05 GMT -5
frecklewish attacked mapleshade in front of her kits when their parentage was revealed and had to be literally pulled off of her. Ah, I mean I'm a little torn on this one. She (Frecklewish) may have overreacted to the truth, but she was deep in grief and loss for her brother, and she had every right as she was lied to in a very major way. frecklewish had a right ot feel grief and even yell at mapleshade, but calling her kits “creatures” and violently assaulting her in front of her children isnt cool at all, and literally nobody cared because after she was pulled off mapleshades trial just continued on like nothing had happened.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 26, 2021 21:45:58 GMT -5
Anyone who knows me will know I'm not a big fan of this novella, but I second this. There's a huge difference in feeling pity towards someone because of their past and condoning their actions. The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I very much dislike Mapleshade, no parent should have to outlive their own child. I was trying to analyse and defend Characters like Oakstar and Appledusk. (Partly because I'm biased towards Mapleshade, but also because I do believe that they may not be completely in the wrong here.) I completely understand what you're doing, I do the same thing all the time. I just don't agree with you, especially since Oakstar exiled three completely innocent kits and Appledusk still cheated on Mapleshade; even if the latter regretted it, that doesn't change the fact that it still happened. And I guess you can make an argument for Oakstar, but it's really hard to see Appledusk's side of things at least when it came to his infidelity.
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 21:48:28 GMT -5
I imagine that was a defensive and self-preserving tactic to try and get over it as soon as possible. that doesnt make what he did less horrible. like i said, he didnt deserve to be murdered, but hes very much not innocent either (not to mention he also broke the code, yet people never give him grief over it) Ok fair point. But I wan't saying he was innocent, I was saying he deserved to be forgiven. Calling them mistakes the same thing as Frecklewish calling them creatures. Its grief.
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Post by Mothdapple on Mar 26, 2021 21:48:48 GMT -5
Spottedleaf’s Heart. Do I even need to explain?
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 21:50:19 GMT -5
Ah, I mean I'm a little torn on this one. She (Frecklewish) may have overreacted to the truth, but she was deep in grief and loss for her brother, and she had every right as she was lied to in a very major way. frecklewish had a right ot feel grief and even yell at mapleshade, but calling her kits “creatures” and violently assaulting her in front of her children isnt cool at all, and literally nobody cared because after she was pulled off mapleshades trial just continued on like nothing had happened. Grief and anger and pain and loss can eventually boil up into something violent. I strongly believe Frecklewish is innocent.
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 21:51:16 GMT -5
I was trying to analyse and defend Characters like Oakstar and Appledusk. (Partly because I'm biased towards Mapleshade, but also because I do believe that they may not be completely in the wrong here.) I completely understand what you're doing, I do the same thing all the time. I just don't agree with you, especially since Oakstar exiled three completely innocent kits and Appledusk still cheated on Mapleshade; even if the latter regretted it, that doesn't change the fact that it still happened. And I guess you can make an argument for Oakstar, but it's really hard to see Appledusk's side of things at least when it came to his infidelity. I think its the opposite on this point. You can make an argument for Appledusk, but not Oakstar
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Post by cable on Mar 26, 2021 21:51:37 GMT -5
frecklewish had a right ot feel grief and even yell at mapleshade, but calling her kits “creatures” and violently assaulting her in front of her children isnt cool at all, and literally nobody cared because after she was pulled off mapleshades trial just continued on like nothing had happened. Grief and anger and pain and loss can eventually boil up into something violent. I strongly believe Frecklewish is innocent. a lot of people feel grief without committing assault. just because she had a motivation, it doesnt mean what she did was okay or that shes free of any guilt for her behavior.
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 21:54:00 GMT -5
Grief and anger and pain and loss can eventually boil up into something violent. I strongly believe Frecklewish is innocent. a lot of people feel grief without committing assault. just because she had a motivation, it doesnt mean what she did was okay or that shes free of any guilt for her behavior. Not saying its ok. As with Appledusk, I believe she deserves to be forgiven. Every cat did something wrong in this book, some can be forgiven, others not.
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 21:55:04 GMT -5
Spottedleaf’s Heart. Do I even need to explain? Nope.
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Post by cable on Mar 26, 2021 21:55:11 GMT -5
you know what book is also dreadfully boring. most of tnp. i love a good journey arc, but only when characters develop and bond over it. most of the traveling characters barely exhibit personality at all.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 26, 2021 21:55:22 GMT -5
I completely understand what you're doing, I do the same thing all the time. I just don't agree with you, especially since Oakstar exiled three completely innocent kits and Appledusk still cheated on Mapleshade; even if the latter regretted it, that doesn't change the fact that it still happened. And I guess you can make an argument for Oakstar, but it's really hard to see Appledusk's side of things at least when it came to his infidelity. I think its the opposite on this point. You can make an argument for Appledusk, but not Oakstar In that case, what sort of argument can you make for Appledusk's infidelity? Because if you're using grief as an argument, you can easily apply it to Oakstar, along with being influenced by Ravenwing's dream (not that any of this makes Oakstar right, of course, he's still horrid in my eyes). It's hard to justify infidelity in most cases.
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Post by Mothdapple on Mar 26, 2021 21:55:43 GMT -5
Ooooooookkkkkkk. I digress. Oakstar did a bad-bad. Now lets talk about Appledusk, You said he was in the wrong. He's a horrible cheater, but I think that he deserves to be forgiven, He realised his mistakes and tried to make it up to his Clan, and I imagine he did feel grief over the kits deaths. cheating is bad, calling your dead children “mistakes” before theyre even in the ground is horrifically cruel, and he never showed a hint of grief or even bothered to learn their namesI don’t think Appledusk directly called the kits mistakes. He called falling in love with Mapleshade, a ThunderClan cat, a mistake though. In which, it makes sense he would say that in front of his entire Clan who are judging his actions, especially Darkstar. I guess you could call breaking the warrior code a “mistake” when you are being put on trial for it. He was trying to prove that he regretted falling in love with Mapleshade and that he is no longer interested in her. It was to save his own skin. A jerk move, honestly, but I can’t say I can’t blame him there. He never said the kits themselves were mistakes. He cared for his kits... up until he was put on trial.
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 21:57:36 GMT -5
I think its the opposite on this point. You can make an argument for Appledusk, but not Oakstar In that case, what sort of argument can you make for Appledusk's infidelity? Because if you're using grief as an argument, you can easily apply it to Oakstar, along with being influenced by Ravenwing's dream (not that any of this makes Oakstar right, of course, he's still horrid in my eyes). It's hard to justify infidelity in most cases. Once again, I don't believe that he was right in any way, I believe that he is one of the characters that can be forgiven.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 26, 2021 21:59:06 GMT -5
you know what book is also dreadfully boring. most of tnp. i love a good journey arc, but only when characters develop and bond over it. most of the traveling characters barely exhibit personality at all. Oh good, so I'm not the only one who felt this way! Yeah, even when I first read TNP, I didn't feel like there was any sort of chemistry between the characters, especially when compared to other traveling groups like the Fellowship. Also, Tawnypelt got done so dirty.
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Post by cable on Mar 26, 2021 22:00:34 GMT -5
I think its the opposite on this point. You can make an argument for Appledusk, but not Oakstar In that case, what sort of argument can you make for Appledusk's infidelity? Because if you're using grief as an argument, you can easily apply it to Oakstar, along with being influenced by Ravenwing's dream (not that any of this makes Oakstar right, of course, he's still horrid in my eyes). It's hard to justify infidelity in most cases. the virgin oakstar: exiles three kits who could grow into strong warriors for being half riverclan when he could easily just have their parentage withheld from them if hes worried about loyalty, could even choose to keep mapleshade with restricted freedoms since shes another capable warrior (or exile just her if hes that goddamn cranky), proceeds to replace his medicine cat with a riverclan medicine cat the chad firestar: takes in a kittypet queen and her three kits, said queen produces two more capable warriors and takes care of the nursery, kits all become accomplished warriors.
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 22:02:44 GMT -5
(Im enjoying this chat btw)
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 22:06:12 GMT -5
In that case, what sort of argument can you make for Appledusk's infidelity? Because if you're using grief as an argument, you can easily apply it to Oakstar, along with being influenced by Ravenwing's dream (not that any of this makes Oakstar right, of course, he's still horrid in my eyes). It's hard to justify infidelity in most cases. the virgin oakstar: exiles three kits who could grow into strong warriors for being half riverclan when he could easily just have their parentage withheld from them if hes worried about loyalty, could even choose to keep mapleshade with restricted freedoms since shes another capable warrior (or exile just her if hes that goddamn cranky), proceeds to replace his medicine cat with a riverclan medicine cat the chad firestar: takes in a kittypet queen and her three kits, said queen produces two more capable warriors and takes care of the nursery, kits all become accomplished warriors. Are you saying that Oaky did a bad here?
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Post by Matfish on Mar 26, 2021 22:07:38 GMT -5
Alright I gotta go bai. I will continue this argument soon.
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Post by cable on Mar 26, 2021 22:07:51 GMT -5
the virgin oakstar: exiles three kits who could grow into strong warriors for being half riverclan when he could easily just have their parentage withheld from them if hes worried about loyalty, could even choose to keep mapleshade with restricted freedoms since shes another capable warrior (or exile just her if hes that goddamn cranky), proceeds to replace his medicine cat with a riverclan medicine cat the chad firestar: takes in a kittypet queen and her three kits, said queen produces two more capable warriors and takes care of the nursery, kits all become accomplished warriors. Are you saying that Oaky did a bad here? oaky did a very bad😔
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 26, 2021 22:34:01 GMT -5
Are you saying that Oaky did a bad here? oaky did a very bad😔 Honestly none of them were innocent imo. I think people forget that they're all bad cats simply because Mapleshade killed some of them in the end. No they didn't deserve death, but that doesn't change how scummy they were to a queen and her kits prior to her going off the deep end. Ravenwing knowingly put kits in danger, stood by as a mother and her kits were persecuted, and did nothing when they were exiled. Didn't even suggest a patrol to escort them out of TC territory. Oakstar was planning to use the kits as means of revenge against Appledusk, wanting to train them to kill him one day, then later exiles the kits and implies he would have been much less bias if Mapleshade had chosen any other cat but Appledusk. Frecklewish attacked a mother in front of her kits, called the kits creatures, and then stalked Mapleshade after she left. She stood by and watched them drowning before leaving them to their fate instead of running to call for help from a nearby RiverClan patrol she was aware of. Appledusk, already obvious, but he cheated on Mapleshade, lied to her, already got another woman pregnant, and was quick to throw her under the bus to save his own hide. Didn't even bother to remember his kits by their names either. Darkstar threw out Mapleshade during a storm, didn't even bother to let her grieve her dead children, not as bad as Oakstar but still pretty messed up. And arguably the most innocent I suppose, Reedshine, still doesn't change the fact she had no sympathy for Mapleshade because she was the "other woman" and then was so quick to defend Appledusk despite him cheating on her too? It's kinda pathetic. A lot of the cats in this book were just downright unlikeable and scummy tbh.
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Post by Rainsplash on Mar 26, 2021 22:59:46 GMT -5
Villain sob stories such as Mapleshade's Vengenace and The Rise of Scourge, though I don't really care about Scourge. AVoS's latter half was a waste of money for Leafstar and SkyClan to blah blah, oh, we don't belong or something. And Spottedleaf's Heart. It's disgusting and it doesn't even give a proper lesson or moral. It just portrays Thistleclaw's act "bad" because he trained with the bad guys and was evil, not how he was disgusting. Recent SEs are honestly just... Omen of the Stars was boring too. I wish they'd just made PoT and OotS the same arc.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Mar 27, 2021 2:23:53 GMT -5
Mapleshade's Vengeance, Spottedleaf's Heart, Squirrelflight's Hope.
I wish Mapleshade's backstory had stayed a mystery, because I really dislike what we've got.
Spottedleaf's Heart made me feel really uncomfortable.
Squirrelflight's Hope was a mess of OOC characters.
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Post by 🔥Firestar🔥 on Mar 27, 2021 3:05:39 GMT -5
Squirrelflight's Hope is the worst Warriors book i've ever read.
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Post by Matfish on Mar 27, 2021 6:46:07 GMT -5
*Cough* SkyClans destiny *Cough*
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 27, 2021 12:12:36 GMT -5
Spottedleaf's Heart, Squirrelflight's Hope, all the tribe books, Mapleshade's Vengeance, the whole POTW series, Yellerfang's Secret. SD at least was readable for me in a character development, slice of life, clan life sorta way. It's what I consider a "sit back and chill while I read" book for me, and while I know slower books aren't everyone's cuppa, I'll take a SE about Clan Life and seeing how the cats work inside Skyclan over another travel book.
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Mar 27, 2021 17:14:04 GMT -5
Firestar's Quest was boring as sin. When I first read it about two years ago, I got through a quarter of the book before quitting. I don't plan to pick it up again from what I've heard about MORE Fire/Sand/Spotted drama.
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Post by Thunderheart57 on Mar 27, 2021 17:31:19 GMT -5
Spottedleaf’s Heart, Tigerheart’s Shadow, and AVOS. I consider all of these not canon.
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Post by Hollyfall on Mar 27, 2021 19:30:59 GMT -5
Squirrelflight's Hope, Yellowfang's Secret, Spottedleaf's Heart, and Redtail's Debt. If I had to pick one though, it'd probably be Squirrelflight's Hope.
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Post by tallshadowstar on Mar 28, 2021 0:08:53 GMT -5
I'm going to offer a few more nominees, although I stand by my initial choice (as nothing will ever be worse than SH).
Shadowstar's Life - I was so excited for a novella from Shadowstar's perspective, and then it turned out to be an absolute mess. It reads like it wasn't edited at all, and as a result it feels like a fever dream. The only way it's tolerable is if I pretend that Shadowstar is meant to be experiencing cognitive decline, and that's why the story seems so disjointed. But in reality, it's just poor writing.
The Raging Storm - This book was such a slog to get through. The antagonist of the arc was defeated three books ago, and it really shows; barely anything of consequence happens. Also, the Finleap subplot was so uncomfortable and unnecessary.
Pebbleshine's Kits - I find Pebbleshine pretty boring as a character, and her novella was no exception. Like The Raging Storm, my main issue with this is that nothing interesting happens. Pebbleshine wanders around, gives birth, and then dies. I wouldn't have minded if it were a good character study and fleshed out Pebbleshine more, but alas, it didn't.
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