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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 20, 2020 14:41:11 GMT -5
related to the multiple threads going on about redemption, controversial characters, and villains, i wanna talk about thistleclaw.
i still don't like thistleclaw. i think after sweetpaw's death, he ceases to love anyone. i don't believe he ever loved snowfur or whitestorm. he preferred strength over anything weak. i wouldn't be surprised if he thought emotions were weak, hence why he calls snowfur weak and tries brainwashing whitestorm when he was a kit to keep him from being weak like his mother...
plus, thistleclaw is in the dark forest because he trained there, preferred being there, and preferred power over anything like love or emotions in general. he made his choice. i don't see why he should ever get a chance of redemption, especially since to me and others, he never even truly loved snowfur or their kit to begin with...why would he care if they tried reaching out to him from starclan? he preferred the dark forest and the power they provided him, so he'll choose dark forest over his kin.
and why would snowfur love him anyways? he's aggressive, and her excuses seem like thistleclaw only pretended to get kits, but once he realized how weak snowfur truly was, he ended up turning on his kit. this is why i believe he tried so hard to keep bluefur away in order to brainwash whitestorm to be "strong" like him.
so to me, thistleclaw was always a bad guy who could never truly love because of his desire for being strong, having true power, and never being seen as weak.
ignoring the terrible spottedleaf novella, he is obviously still bad.
he told tigerpaw to beat up a young kittypet. he trained in the dark forest willingly, and knowing what they were, what they wanted, and what they granted him. he preferred power and strength over love and family. he made his choice and went out the way he wanted: by violence. he chose the dark forest over starclan. he didn't do anything super bad to send him automatically to the dark forest, so he obviously chose to go there, away from snowfur and whitestorm who people still think he "genuinely loved." to me, he's not capable of love just like his apprentice tigerstar 1.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 14:44:44 GMT -5
I agree with most of this, but I don't think Snowfur was weak at all.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 20, 2020 14:47:19 GMT -5
I agree with most of this, but I don't think Snowfur was weak at all. i dont think she's weak, but thistleclaw clearly did.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 14:48:39 GMT -5
I agree with most of this, but I don't think Snowfur was weak at all. i dont think she's weak, but thistleclaw clearly did. True. I don't see what she saw in him, because she started coming onto him first, and he acted all annoyed by her most of the time, and then they were mates.
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Bisexual
Selena
Mint Oreos are superior
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Post by Selena on Oct 20, 2020 17:44:06 GMT -5
This is so beyond true
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 17:45:12 GMT -5
Thistleclaw was terrible even way back in BP, so needless to say, I've never liked him. He was a jerk even before Sweetpaw and Snowfur died, and he only ended up getting worse. Bluestar also had no obligation to accept him either if he wasn't giving her any reason to.
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Post by Cloverƒall on Oct 20, 2020 18:27:44 GMT -5
I saw a post on Tumblr that sums up my opinion on him-it's pretty long Thistleclaw is one of the most contentious characters in Warriors. He has been the subject of debate and fandom discourse for years and years, ever since Bluestar’s Prophecy released. This post will look at his character history, examine his behavior, interactions, and choices, and try to set a few things straight using canon, textual evidence. All book evidence is considered canon, because it is /inherently/ canon. That being said, I will spend a lot of this post dedicated to Pre-Spottedleaf’s Heart release, as I believe it is important to showing his characterization even if you disregard Spottedleaf’s Heart as canon. I will look at his appearances and characterizations in release order, as they impact the progression of fandom impressions of him. All scenes/evidence of behavior is included under the cut, as it makes the post incredibly long. I’ll sum up the main points so you can read the specific takeaways without reading through all the scenes - but if you want to argue about something, please read the evidence of all points before arguing.
TL,DR: Thistleclaw has always been a “bad” character (“bad” morally speaking). He has always been portrayed as arrogant, antagonistic, violent, aggressive, and a danger to ThunderClan’s future if given power. Often fans will argue that he was not always a bad character but just overly aggressive, and back up this position with two main arguments: 1) Bluestar is an unreliable narrator in Bluestar’s Prophecy, and 2) all meaningful examples of Thistleclaw’s morally bad behavior occurs after his death or after the release of BP as an attempt by the Erins to “make him look bad”/”retroactively explain his existence in the Dark Forest because they didn’t make him bad enough in BP”. (Another claim is that Spottedleaf’s Heart isn’t canon, which I’m just not entertaining as an argument because it’s objectively untrue. “SH isn’t canon” is a non-argument.)
Using examples from many books, I will show that Thistleclaw 1) has always been portrayed negatively, 2) has his dangerous behavior commented on by more characters than just Bluestar, and 3) has plenty of examples of his negative character traits both in and outside of Bluestar’s Prophecy. This is all shown without even considering Spottedleaf’s Heart - which when considered makes him canonically the Warriors equivalent of a ****phile and predator. Bluestar’s opinions of him and his perception as a bad person is justified because it is continuously supported by canon.
Warnings for predatory/****philic relationships, due to the nature of Spottedleaf’s Heart, near the end of the post (another warning will be there if you want to read up until that point).
The first mention of Thistleclaw is in Forest of Secrets, after Bluestar reveals the truth about her kits.
“Fireheart, I don’t need you to tell me how difficult my choice was. I lay awake for many nights, deciding what to do. What was best for the kits…what was best for me…and what was best for the Clan.”
“There must have been other warriors ready to be deputy?” Fireheart was still struggling to accept that Bluestar had been so ambitious that she would have given away her own kits.
Bluestar jerked her chin up defiantly. “Oh, yes. There was Thistleclaw. He was a fine warrior, strong and brave. But his answer to every problem was to fight. Should I have watched him be made deputy, and then leader, and let him force the Clan into unnecessary wars?” She shook her head sadly. “He died as he lived, Fireheart, a few seasons before you came to join us, attacking a RiverClan patrol on the border. Wild and arrogant to the last. I couldn’t stand by and let him destroy my Clan.”
…
Tigerclaw swung his head around and fixed her with a yellow glare. “Defend myself to you, you gutless excuse for a warrior? What sort of a leader are you? Keeping the peace with other Clans. Helping them! You barely punished Fireheart and Graystripe for feeding RiverClan, and you sent them to fetch WindClan home! I would have never shown such kittypet softness. I would have brought back the days of TigerClan. I would have made ThunderClan great!”
“And how many cats would have died for it?” Bluestar murmured, almost to herself. Fireheart wondered if she was thinking of Thistleclaw, the arrogant, bloodthirsty warrior she could not have let become deputy instead of her.
Thistleclaw is established here as a few things: arrogant, bloodthirsty, aggressive, and most importantly - the driving reason Bluestar gave up her kits. Fireheart believes she is reminded of Thistleclaw when she thinks of the number of cats that could have died for ThunderClan greatness.
The next releases with mentions of Thistleclaw are The Rise of Scourge and Cats of the Clans in 2008. Let’s look at The Rise of Scourge first, as this is the first scene with Thistleclaw’s actual appearance.
image Thistleclaw appears in a patrol with Bluefur and Tigerpaw - we’ll revisit this scene later, in Bluestar’s Prophecy. It’s a brief glimpse at Thistleclaw, and it does nothing but reinforce what we’ve already been told about Thistleclaw. His answer to anything - even a kit on the edge of the territory - is to fight. This is a direct violation of the Warrior Code, and even without it should be considered morally reprehensible for encouraging his apprentice to maul a wandering child.
In Cats of the Clans, the second 2008 release, Thistleclaw is mentioned once by the narrator, Rock, who is speaking to Mosskit.
Your mother was a great leader, Mosskit, even if the price she paid for it was higher than she ever dreamed. She gave you up on that snowbound night, you and your littermates, so that she could become ThunderClan’s deputy instead of Thistleclaw, who would have sliced through the forest until the paths ran red with blood. You should be proud of her for such loyalty to her Clan. Proud of your father, Oakheart, too, for raising your brother and sister to be strong, respected RiverClan warriors.
Rock establishes himself as “the seer of all” in the introduction to this book. Later, in Po3/Oots, he is established as generally all-knowing. He is another perspective (who, canonically, whether or not you find him annoying/stupid as a character, has ‘absolute knowledge’ of the past and future) that is not Bluestar that says explicitly that Thistleclaw would have “sliced through the forest until the paths ran red with blood”. This is important to highlight because many discount all of Bluestar’s perspective on Thistleclaw as biased, but here Thistleclaw’s characterization remains consistent from a second perspective.
Bluestar’s Prophecy released in 2009. This is the bulk of Thistleclaw’s proper appearances. I’ll go over a few notable short scenes.
In the first few chapters, Thistlekit is mostly mentioned in passing with no real opinions inferred of him or any behavior of his discussed. In chapter 4, Bluepaw and Snowpaw become apprentices.
Rosekit skipped around them. “We’ll miss you in the nursery.”
Thistlekit’s eyes darkened. “If you’re apprentices, I don’t see why I can’t be. I’m almost as big as you.”
Sweetkit rolled her eyes. “No, you’re just always boasting!”
“Don’t worry, Thistlekit!” Snowpaw reassured him. “I’ll teach you every battle move I learn.”
Thistlekit stuck his nose in the air. “I’m already a better fighter than you’ll ever be!”
Adderfang snorted, his breath billowing. “Any excuse to provoke us.” He beckoned to Thistlepaw with his tail. “Stay with me,” he told his apprentice. “You nearly fought with a ShadowClan apprentice last time.”
“You always tell me only cowards turn away from a fight,” Thistlepaw objected.
Adderfang glared at him. “I didn’t say you shouldn’t have fought him. Just not at a Gathering. You’re too impulsive.”
There are a number of brief scenes with Snowpaw and Thistlepaw that show Snowpaw and Thistlepaw’s budding feelings for each other - grooming, Snowpaw’s praise over his hunting, etc. Bluepaw thinks to herself a few times that her sister should see how arrogant he is. Often, Bluepaw’s thoughts are dismissed by readers as “unreliable”, but she has moments with him that cause her to feel this way (like the moments above). There are a few more scenes after Bluefur becomes a warrior with relatively mild interactions with Thistlepaw.
Eventually, Bluefur is tasked with leading a hunting patrol that includes Thistlepaw. Thistlepaw attempts to criticize her decisions and suggest different ways to go, eventually intentionally scaring off prey that Bluefur tries to catch.
“Are we hunting at Snakerocks or what?” Thistlepaw mewed loudly. The thrush fluttered up into the higher branches calling an alarm.
He did that on purpose!
“Thistlepaw!” Smallear scolded. “Now every piece of prey will know we’re here.”
But Adderfang had already turned on his apprentice. “We’re hunting for the Clan!” he hissed. Thistlepaw crouched apologetically as Adderfang bared his teeth, but managed to flash a sly look of triumph at Bluefur.
Bluefur has Thistlepaw guard Snakerocks while the warriors hunt as punishment, a decision the other senior warriors, including his mentor, find reasonable (again showing that her perspective on his behavior is not considered extreme). He proceeds to make false alarms to continue to ruin Bluefur’s hunts and generally disrupt the patrol.
Smallear and Robinwing nodded. Adderfang watched her, his expression impossible to read. Bluefur felt very uncomfortable giving instructions to senior warriors, but Sunfall had put her in charge of the patrol and she was determined to do things properly.
“Why do I have to be guard?” Thistlepaw complained. “It’s boring.”
Adderfang lashed his tail. “Because you proved back there that hunting is the last thing on your mind today.”
Thistlepaw sullenly flicked a leaf with his paw, but didn’t argue. With a flash of satisfaction, Bluefur leaped up the rocks, her mouth open to taste the air for prey signs. Smallear disappeared into the undergrowth while Adderfang and Robinwing each took a different route up the boulders.
“Look out!” Thistlepaw yowled.
Bluefur tensed, glancing over her shoulder. “What?”
“Nothing,” he reported, studying something on the ground by his front paws. “Just a beetle.”
…
“Snake!” Thistlepaw’s alarm call made Bluefur spin around and peer over the edge, clinging on with her claws as the ground spun far below.
Thistlepaw was looking up at her innocently. “Oops!” he mewed. “It was just Smallear’s tail sticking out of the ferns.
Eventually, a dog attacks. The cats chase it off once, but it comes back to try and take a rabbit caught by Bluefur. The warriors plan to leave it behind, but Thistlepaw grows angry and attacks the dog, driving it off. This leads to him receiving his warrior name.
Bluefur blinked. She’d never seen such courage, however foolish it had been. She stepped back, speechless, as Thistlepaw shouldered past. Stormtail, Sunfall, and Pinestar were standing with their hackles up at the base of the ravine. They watched in amazement as Thistlepaw bounded down the cliff….
Bluefur forced her fur to lie flat. There was so much arrogance in Thistleclaw’s amber stare. What kind of warrior would he make? He was brave, he had proved that, but wariness pricked her belly. Pride had no place in a warrior’s heart. Overconfidence could be dangerous, to his Clanmates as well as himself.
A little while after the ceremony, RiverClan is invading ThunderClan territory again, trying to take some of the territory around Sunningrocks. Sunfall remarks they have plenty of warriors to drive off the small patrol.
Thistleclaw shouldered his way to the front. “We should do more than drive them off,” he growled. “We should give them a battle they won’t forget in a hurry…. We should shred them where they fall, not let them escape[.]”
Sunfall glared at him. “Warriors do not need to shed blood to win battles.”
Pinestar leaves ThunderClan and Sunstar becomes leader. Thistleclaw’s desire to become leader is first mentioned here.
Bluefur longed to be standing in his paw prints. He had lifted his Clan from anxiety to hope. Imagine being up there, looking down at his Clanmates—the power he must feel. Her mouth felt dry with sudden, raw hunger.
Beside her, Thistleclaw leaned closer to Snowfur and whispered in her ear. Pricking her ears, Bluefur strained to hear. “I’m going to be up there one day,” hissed the young warrior, “addressing the Clan.”
Later, Snowfur hunts with Bluefur and tells her of her pregnancy. She describes Thistleclaw as loyal and kind.
“He’ll make a good father, you know.” Snowfur seemed to be trying to reassure her. “I mean, I know you don’t like him, but he is good and kind.”
Bluefur stared at her sister, trying to imagine Thistleclaw being kind. “He’s a loyal mate, and I trust him,” Snowfur insisted.
He is later attentive and affectionate when Snowfur gives birth to Whitekit. Bluefur expresses feeling fond for Thistleclaw in the moment at the sight of his caring for his mate and son.
Later, Snowfur is struck by the monster and killed. Adderfang tells Bluefur to tell Whitekit. Thistleclaw blames Bluefur for Snowfur’s death. Bluefur is distant from Whitekit after Snowfur’s death, until Featherwhisker reminds her she will be the one to teach kindness to Whitekit. Later, when Thistleclaw tries to practice battle moves with Whitekit and Bluefur attempts to intervene, Goosefeather urges her not to let Thistleclaw hurt him.
“Thistleclaw will teach him how to be a fierce warrior,” Featherwhisker murmured. “But who will teach him that softness and strength can exist together? And that loyalty to the Clan comes from the heart, not through teeth and claws?”
…
Goosefeather’s stinky breath stirred her ear fur. “A thistle has thorns sharp as claws,” he whispered. “Don’t let Whitekit get hurt by them.”
…
At least it would get Thistleclaw away from his son for a while. Not that she wanted to separate Whitekit from his father, but Thistleclaw was urging him to do more and more complex battle moves even though the young tom was starting to look tired. Whitekit had not even eaten yet, and the sun was lifting over the trees.
Thistleclaw’s aggression is well-known, and both the Clan’s medicine cats wish for Bluefur to protect Whitekit and teach him kindness (something Thistleclaw has only ever been described to have by Snowfur, his mate).
Thistleclaw and Bluefur go hunting together near the Twolegplace. Thistleclaw wants to leave Clan borders to hunt down kittypets he suspects have invaded, and Bluefur tries to stop him. He insults her and threatens her to stay away from Whitekit.
Thistleclaw leaped down and faced her. “You know what your problem is, Bluefur? You’re soft. Soft on warriors from other Clans and soft on kittypets. I saw you talking to Oakheart at the Gathering. Do you care about your Clan at all?”
“Of course I do!” Bluefur hissed. How dare he make her defend her loyalty? “And I wasn’t exactly having a friendly chat with Oakheart!”
“Well, I need more proof before I let you near Whitekit.” Thistleclaw headed back into the trees.
Bluefur hurried after. “He’s my kin, too!”
“You weren’t there when he needed you,” Thistleclaw snarled. “I was. Just keep away from him…or I’ll make you.”
Some time passes, with Thistleclaw becoming mentor to Tigerpaw. Bluefur helps Goosefeather collect herbs and is reminded that Thistleclaw is a danger to the Clan, and that he is the reason she must become deputy.
Goosefeather growled. “That young warrior is the reason you must become deputy. Blood lies in his path. Fire lies in yours.” Bluefur stopped pulling leaves as she felt the medicine cat’s gaze burn her fur. He was staring at her, his eyes ablaze. “You must concentrate on nothing else!” he hissed. “What could be better in this time of bitter frost than a blazing fire? Your Clan needs you. Don’t let anything distract you!”
Sunstar receives reports of kittypets on the territory (Bluefur suspects from Thistleclaw, who is “spoiling for a fight”). She goes to look for kittypets with Thistleclaw and Tigerpaw.
Baring his teeth, Tigerpaw rushed at Thistleclaw, slamming into his flank. Thistleclaw turned and flung his apprentice away with a hefty blow that left Tigerpaw staggering. “Mouse-brain!” Thistleclaw growled. “You should have seen that coming.”
Tigerpaw shook his head, looking dazed. “Let me try it again,” he begged.
Bluefur hurried forward to interrupt. She couldn’t watch such brutal training. She was sure Leopardfoot had no idea that Tigerpaw’s mentor was so rough with her kit. Should she warn the ThunderClan leader what was going on?
…
Bluefur could smell a faint trace of kittypet. Not strong enough to belong to a full-grown cat. “It’s just a kit,” she meowed. “Not worth following.”
“I forgot you had a soft spot for kittypets,” Thistleclaw growled.
…
A growl rumbled in Thistleclaw’s throat. “What are you doing here? This is ThunderClan territory!”
“Thistleclaw, he’s only a kit. He’s no threat,” Bluefur pleaded.
“An intruder is an intruder, Bluefur! You’ve always been too soft on them.” Bluefur felt sick as Thistleclaw turned to his apprentice. “Here, let’s put it to my apprentice. What do you think, Tigerpaw? How should we handle this?”
“I think the kittypet should be taught a lesson,” Tigerpaw hissed. “One it’ll remember.”
Bluefur stepped forward. “Now, hold on, there’s no need for this—”
Thistleclaw turned on her, arching his back. “Shut up!”
Tigerpaw lunged at the kit, sending it flying like a piece of prey…. Tail bushed in terror, the kit tried to scramble to its paws. But Tigerpaw pounced again. The tabby apprentice pinned the kit to the ground. With claws unsheathed, he swiped at its muzzle, then raked its flank. The kit squealed in agony.
“Show it your teeth, Tigerpaw,” Thistleclaw goaded.
…
“We were only defending ThunderClan territory from invaders,” Thistleclaw snarled.
“That so-called invader was a kit!”
Thistleclaw shrugged. “That’s his problem.” He turned and stalked away between the trees, his spiky pelt soon swallowed in shadow. Tigerpaw trotted after him with his tail up, proud of his brave victory. Rage throbbed in Bluefur’s paws as she stared after them. I’ll never let you take power in this Clan, Thistleclaw!
Though Bluefur has, up until this point, felt ambitions about leadership, this is a key moment in solidifying wanting to keep Thistleclaw from becoming leader. It is also another concrete moment that reinforces her misgivings about him. There is a big time skip between then and Whitestorm’s warrior ceremony. Bluefur notes a scar Whitestorm has, a training injury from when Tigerclaw had unsheathed his claws during their apprenticeship. Thistleclaw had remarked it would teach Whitestorm to react faster, disregarding Bluefur’s comments about Tigerclaw’s lack of respect for his Clanmates.
Bluefur’s romance with Oakheart happens, and she tells him she’ll raise the kits in ThunderClan. At some point, Thistleclaw and Tigerclaw catch him on the edge of ThunderClan territory, and attack him with extreme violence. Oakheart attempts to retreat, and Thistleclaw attempts to prevent him from doing so to punish him. She is pregnant with kits at this point. He becomes obsessive over the idea of keeping out enemies.
She skidded out onto the shore and saw Thistleclaw pinning Oakheart to the stones by his throat. Tigerclaw stood to one side, watching, while Thrushpelt circled nervously, scanning the far bank for cats coming to Oakheart’s rescue. “You filthy fish-eater,” the spiky warrior was growling into Oakheart’s stricken face. “What are you doing on our territory? I should rip your throat out!”
…Tigerclaw stepped forward to block her. “This RiverClan filth is trespassing,” he growled. “We have to punish him.” Staring past him, Bluefur could see blood welling at Oakheart’s throat, turning Thistleclaw’s paws red.
…
“Not so fast.” Thistleclaw sprang in front of him, blocking his exit.
Bluefur darted between them. “Enough, Thistleclaw! You’ve taught him a lesson. I’m sure he won’t come back here again.” She met Oakheart’s gaze and saw nothing but sadness. “Let him go.” Her plea came as a whisper. She was begging for Oakheart, but the words echoed in her heart. Let him go.
Oakheart stumbled past her and slid into the river.
“Traitor!” Thistleclaw shoved Bluefur, sending her stumbling onto her haunches. His claws were still unsheathed and tufted with Oakheart’s fur. “You’re a coward and a fool! I’ve never once seen you defend our borders. What kind of warrior are you?”
…
Thistleclaw lurched away and began to pace up and down the shore, staring across the river. “We need more patrols,” he muttered. “It’s too easy to invade. Too many invaders. Only fear will keep them out. We must mark our borders with the blood of our enemies.” Spittle bubbled at his mouth.
Here Thistleclaw is shown as overly aggressive to a lone intruder, attempting to block his retreat, and is implied to be willing to kill Oakheart. He then attacks Bluefur, a pregnant queen. He briefly becomes obsessed with the idea of intruders, to the point where he is foaming at the mouth over them. This is another concrete moment that makes Bluefur fearful of Thistleclaw.
Goosefeather again reminds Bluefur that Thistleclaw will end ThunderClan if allowed to lead. Later, they both share a vision of Thistleclaw covered in blood, confirming this is not solely Bluefur’s bias/paranoia, nor Goosefeather’s. This convinces her to give up her kits.
Goosefeather turned back to Bluefur, and his blue eyes were as empty as the sky. “If Thistleclaw becomes deputy, it will be the end of ThunderClan.”
Bluefur narrowed her eyes. “My kits need me,” she repeated.
…Bluefur blinked. Thistleclaw’s spiky pelt was glistening. Was he wet? Something dark and sticky was flowing down his pelt. Blood! Thistleclaw was drenched with blood. It oozed from his fur and dripped from his whiskers, staining the snow around him scarlet. Horrified, Bluefur backed away…. She caught Goosefeather’s eye, and he nodded. He’d seen it too. A vision of ThunderClan’s path if Thistleclaw was to lead them.
Bluefur becomes deputy and reflects on everything that makes her wary of Thistleclaw.
If only they had seen him as she had, with his claws at Oakheart’s throat, goading Tigerclaw on to savage a helpless kit, pacing the borders with wildeyed hunger for revenge. The memories gave Bluefur strength. Whatever it had cost her, she was the only cat who could stand in Thistleclaw’s way. Only she knew what he was capable of.
It is important to again emphasize that Bluefur has specific incidents of Thistleclaw’s behavior that reinforce her opinion of him: that he is arrogant, bloodthirsty, and aggressive. Any scenes that serve to possibly counter this - like his playing with Whitekit - are consistently underscored by his violent nature and urgency to teach battle. This is not Bluefur being an unreliable narrator. She did not make up the scenes that reinforce her beliefs. Thistleclaw consistently makes choices and has actions that show he is aggressive, dangerous, and uses excessive force. Additionally, the only cat that describes Thistleclaw as kind is Snowfur, his mate. Thistleclaw does show affection for her, but treating his mate nicely does not counter his witnessed aggressive and violent behavior that continues to build Bluefur’s negative perception of him.
Thistleclaw appears occasionally in Crookedstar’s Promise as a Dark Forest trainee. He is eventually taught the killing bite, which chills Crookedjaw. Thistleclaw insists you must “look beyond the warrior code” to become a great warrior.
Thistleclaw is mentioned repeatedly in The Ultimate Guide, each mention highlighting his ambition and aggression.
Thistleclaw is seen throughout Omen of the Stars in the Dark Forest - I won’t go over his behavior here since at this point he’s just portrayed as evil and his behavior while in the Dark Forest is irrelevant to whether or not he deserved to end up there previously.
I do not have access to Redtail’s Debt and can’t find a PDF, but according to the wiki he “escalates a tense Gathering”.
Spottedleaf’s Heart (content warning ahead) came out in 2017 and reignited the hell discourse that is Thistleclaw’s characterization. As previously stated, Spottedleaf’s Heart is canon. It is an official book published in the Warrior series by the authors of Warriors. It has never been stated by the authors to be non-canon. It is canon, and any arguments that are based in pretending it isn’t will be ignored.
Unfortunately, I also can’t locate the SH pdfs, so plot summary is from the wiki. Thistleclaw gives Spottedkit a gift of feathers for her nest. Soon after she becomes an apprentice, Thistleclaw flatters her often - complimenting her hunting skills as a new apprentice and such. He later takes her on a walk alone. Eventually, Spottedpaw witnesses the confrontation with Tiny, and is upset by his behavior. She confronts him, and is angry when he defends himself. This is in line with previously established canon. Thistleclaw brings her prey as an apology and tells her to meet him at night to go for another walk, and he tells her they could have a future together.
Spottedpaw watches Thistleclaw train in the Dark Forest (also previously established canon) and is upset this, as the training is brutal and Thistleclaw is violent. Later, she is training with Whitepaw and Tigerpaw, and nearly uses a Dark Forest move, which makes her upset. Thistleclaw talks to her and says he would do anything for her because he loves her, a cat younger than his teenage son.
Spottedpaw attempts to convince Thistleclaw to leave the Dark Forest for her so they can be together, which he refuses to do. This is portrayed as what makes him the bad character in the book - not their ****philic relationship. Despite the unsettling nature of their relationship, this is never made the reason their relationship is bad - no character takes issue with Thistleclaw’s age, and Spottedpaw herself never realizes that it was inappropriate. Because there is no textual evidence that the Erins themselves considered the predatory nature of the relationship negative, it’s not reasonable to assert that making Thistleclaw a ****phile was an attempt at “making him look worse” - he is supposed to look bad because he won’t leave the DF for her.
Thistleclaw’s appearances throughout the series reinforce the idea that he is aggressive and violent. Thistleclaw is established as such before Bluestar’s Prophecy, and all his appearances after BP reinforce this. They are not “attempts at making him look worse”. They are consistent with his characterization. The only new characterization comes from the inclusion of his disgusting relationship with newly apprenticed Spottedpaw - which the book does not demonize for being predatory, but because Thistleclaw doesn’t value it over the Dark Forest training.
Thistleclaw’s affection was only ever for his littermates and his mate. Many cats besides Bluefur notice his behavior and express concern, and those that believe him to be a strong and respectable warrior are never present for the behavior that Bluefur repeatedly witnesses. Thistleclaw has concrete actions and behaviors that give Bluefur her strong opinions against him. She is not unreliable as a narrator, and should not be discounted from his characterization - she even has moments where she acknowledges his positive traits, like his bravery and his affection for her sister, despite disliking their relationship. Thistleclaw’s characterization has always been consistent, and he has always been portrayed as aggressive and dangerous.
Many argue that his later appearances are only to make him look worse - but I disagree. His appearances in the Dark Forest were retconned in, yes - but they are entirely consistent with his already canon personality. He trains to become more powerful, learns the killing bite while repeatedly making it clear he is willing to kill outsiders, and gripes about Bluefur’s weaknesses. None of this is out of character for him. All credit goes the blog warriorsfireandwater. EDIT: I'm going to add my own thoughts on him just for the ride. Thistleclaw never appealed to me as a character. Even through a writing angle, he just seemed to be another Tigerstar or Hawkfrost, except he never accomplished anything. Even the whole ThistleXSnow thing wasn't anything I could get behind. I never considered it abusive, or toxic, or that Thistleclaw was only using her. I just found it to be irritating. Snowfur was completely aware of his arrogance, she just found it attractive. Most of the time it just felt like Snowfur was his groupie, and I just never was especially fond of that dynamic. But I will acknowledge Snowfur wasn't the "uwu soft girl" she's made out to be.
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Post by heatherstorm on Oct 20, 2020 18:38:53 GMT -5
semi-related, i don't trust anyone who tries to defend whatever the hell was going on with Thistleclaw in Spottedleaf's Heart. don't care if it's about fictional cats, still don't trust 'em.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Oct 20, 2020 18:40:58 GMT -5
semi-related, i don't trust anyone who tries to defend whatever the hell was going on with Thistleclaw in Spottedleaf's Heart. don't care if it's about fictional cats, still don't trust 'em. Most of us who like Thistleclaw don't defend it, but also think that book is a garbage fire that is so out of character for everyone involved that it is better off ignored.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 18:56:48 GMT -5
semi-related, i don't trust anyone who tries to defend whatever the hell was going on with Thistleclaw in Spottedleaf's Heart. don't care if it's about fictional cats, still don't trust 'em. Don't forget the Tiny incident that people always excuse and like to blame Bluefur for not stopping it.
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Post by heatherstorm on Oct 20, 2020 18:59:34 GMT -5
semi-related, i don't trust anyone who tries to defend whatever the hell was going on with Thistleclaw in Spottedleaf's Heart. don't care if it's about fictional cats, still don't trust 'em. Most of us who like Thistleclaw don't defend it, but also think that book is a garbage fire that is so out of character for everyone involved that it is better off ignored. the thread topic just reminded me of when the novella first came out and some people (on the instagram fandom at least) kept going on about how the relationship was perfectly fine since regular cats don't care about age or whatever. agreed on SH being better off ignored. maybe if we never think about it, it'll magically disappear...
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Asexual
#07B04C
star_black.png
Name Colour
Ṣanɗypaw™
The Shiny User
🎵Guess that's just the way it goes, easy come, easy go🎵
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Post by Ṣanɗypaw™ on Oct 20, 2020 19:06:44 GMT -5
Reading this, I wonder what would have happened to Thistleclaw if Sweetpaw hadn't died.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 19:06:47 GMT -5
I saw a post on Tumblr that sums up my opinion on him-it's pretty long Thistleclaw is one of the most contentious characters in Warriors. He has been the subject of debate and fandom discourse for years and years, ever since Bluestar’s Prophecy released. This post will look at his character history, examine his behavior, interactions, and choices, and try to set a few things straight using canon, textual evidence. All book evidence is considered canon, because it is /inherently/ canon. That being said, I will spend a lot of this post dedicated to Pre-Spottedleaf’s Heart release, as I believe it is important to showing his characterization even if you disregard Spottedleaf’s Heart as canon. I will look at his appearances and characterizations in release order, as they impact the progression of fandom impressions of him. All scenes/evidence of behavior is included under the cut, as it makes the post incredibly long. I’ll sum up the main points so you can read the specific takeaways without reading through all the scenes - but if you want to argue about something, please read the evidence of all points before arguing.
TL,DR: Thistleclaw has always been a “bad” character (“bad” morally speaking). He has always been portrayed as arrogant, antagonistic, violent, aggressive, and a danger to ThunderClan’s future if given power. Often fans will argue that he was not always a bad character but just overly aggressive, and back up this position with two main arguments: 1) Bluestar is an unreliable narrator in Bluestar’s Prophecy, and 2) all meaningful examples of Thistleclaw’s morally bad behavior occurs after his death or after the release of BP as an attempt by the Erins to “make him look bad”/”retroactively explain his existence in the Dark Forest because they didn’t make him bad enough in BP”. (Another claim is that Spottedleaf’s Heart isn’t canon, which I’m just not entertaining as an argument because it’s objectively untrue. “SH isn’t canon” is a non-argument.)
Using examples from many books, I will show that Thistleclaw 1) has always been portrayed negatively, 2) has his dangerous behavior commented on by more characters than just Bluestar, and 3) has plenty of examples of his negative character traits both in and outside of Bluestar’s Prophecy. This is all shown without even considering Spottedleaf’s Heart - which when considered makes him canonically the Warriors equivalent of a ****phile and predator. Bluestar’s opinions of him and his perception as a bad person is justified because it is continuously supported by canon.
Warnings for predatory/****philic relationships, due to the nature of Spottedleaf’s Heart, near the end of the post (another warning will be there if you want to read up until that point).
The first mention of Thistleclaw is in Forest of Secrets, after Bluestar reveals the truth about her kits.
“Fireheart, I don’t need you to tell me how difficult my choice was. I lay awake for many nights, deciding what to do. What was best for the kits…what was best for me…and what was best for the Clan.”
“There must have been other warriors ready to be deputy?” Fireheart was still struggling to accept that Bluestar had been so ambitious that she would have given away her own kits.
Bluestar jerked her chin up defiantly. “Oh, yes. There was Thistleclaw. He was a fine warrior, strong and brave. But his answer to every problem was to fight. Should I have watched him be made deputy, and then leader, and let him force the Clan into unnecessary wars?” She shook her head sadly. “He died as he lived, Fireheart, a few seasons before you came to join us, attacking a RiverClan patrol on the border. Wild and arrogant to the last. I couldn’t stand by and let him destroy my Clan.”
…
Tigerclaw swung his head around and fixed her with a yellow glare. “Defend myself to you, you gutless excuse for a warrior? What sort of a leader are you? Keeping the peace with other Clans. Helping them! You barely punished Fireheart and Graystripe for feeding RiverClan, and you sent them to fetch WindClan home! I would have never shown such kittypet softness. I would have brought back the days of TigerClan. I would have made ThunderClan great!”
“And how many cats would have died for it?” Bluestar murmured, almost to herself. Fireheart wondered if she was thinking of Thistleclaw, the arrogant, bloodthirsty warrior she could not have let become deputy instead of her.
Thistleclaw is established here as a few things: arrogant, bloodthirsty, aggressive, and most importantly - the driving reason Bluestar gave up her kits. Fireheart believes she is reminded of Thistleclaw when she thinks of the number of cats that could have died for ThunderClan greatness.
The next releases with mentions of Thistleclaw are The Rise of Scourge and Cats of the Clans in 2008. Let’s look at The Rise of Scourge first, as this is the first scene with Thistleclaw’s actual appearance.
image Thistleclaw appears in a patrol with Bluefur and Tigerpaw - we’ll revisit this scene later, in Bluestar’s Prophecy. It’s a brief glimpse at Thistleclaw, and it does nothing but reinforce what we’ve already been told about Thistleclaw. His answer to anything - even a kit on the edge of the territory - is to fight. This is a direct violation of the Warrior Code, and even without it should be considered morally reprehensible for encouraging his apprentice to maul a wandering child.
In Cats of the Clans, the second 2008 release, Thistleclaw is mentioned once by the narrator, Rock, who is speaking to Mosskit.
Your mother was a great leader, Mosskit, even if the price she paid for it was higher than she ever dreamed. She gave you up on that snowbound night, you and your littermates, so that she could become ThunderClan’s deputy instead of Thistleclaw, who would have sliced through the forest until the paths ran red with blood. You should be proud of her for such loyalty to her Clan. Proud of your father, Oakheart, too, for raising your brother and sister to be strong, respected RiverClan warriors.
Rock establishes himself as “the seer of all” in the introduction to this book. Later, in Po3/Oots, he is established as generally all-knowing. He is another perspective (who, canonically, whether or not you find him annoying/stupid as a character, has ‘absolute knowledge’ of the past and future) that is not Bluestar that says explicitly that Thistleclaw would have “sliced through the forest until the paths ran red with blood”. This is important to highlight because many discount all of Bluestar’s perspective on Thistleclaw as biased, but here Thistleclaw’s characterization remains consistent from a second perspective.
Bluestar’s Prophecy released in 2009. This is the bulk of Thistleclaw’s proper appearances. I’ll go over a few notable short scenes.
In the first few chapters, Thistlekit is mostly mentioned in passing with no real opinions inferred of him or any behavior of his discussed. In chapter 4, Bluepaw and Snowpaw become apprentices.
Rosekit skipped around them. “We’ll miss you in the nursery.”
Thistlekit’s eyes darkened. “If you’re apprentices, I don’t see why I can’t be. I’m almost as big as you.”
Sweetkit rolled her eyes. “No, you’re just always boasting!”
“Don’t worry, Thistlekit!” Snowpaw reassured him. “I’ll teach you every battle move I learn.”
Thistlekit stuck his nose in the air. “I’m already a better fighter than you’ll ever be!”
Adderfang snorted, his breath billowing. “Any excuse to provoke us.” He beckoned to Thistlepaw with his tail. “Stay with me,” he told his apprentice. “You nearly fought with a ShadowClan apprentice last time.”
“You always tell me only cowards turn away from a fight,” Thistlepaw objected.
Adderfang glared at him. “I didn’t say you shouldn’t have fought him. Just not at a Gathering. You’re too impulsive.”
There are a number of brief scenes with Snowpaw and Thistlepaw that show Snowpaw and Thistlepaw’s budding feelings for each other - grooming, Snowpaw’s praise over his hunting, etc. Bluepaw thinks to herself a few times that her sister should see how arrogant he is. Often, Bluepaw’s thoughts are dismissed by readers as “unreliable”, but she has moments with him that cause her to feel this way (like the moments above). There are a few more scenes after Bluefur becomes a warrior with relatively mild interactions with Thistlepaw.
Eventually, Bluefur is tasked with leading a hunting patrol that includes Thistlepaw. Thistlepaw attempts to criticize her decisions and suggest different ways to go, eventually intentionally scaring off prey that Bluefur tries to catch.
“Are we hunting at Snakerocks or what?” Thistlepaw mewed loudly. The thrush fluttered up into the higher branches calling an alarm.
He did that on purpose!
“Thistlepaw!” Smallear scolded. “Now every piece of prey will know we’re here.”
But Adderfang had already turned on his apprentice. “We’re hunting for the Clan!” he hissed. Thistlepaw crouched apologetically as Adderfang bared his teeth, but managed to flash a sly look of triumph at Bluefur.
Bluefur has Thistlepaw guard Snakerocks while the warriors hunt as punishment, a decision the other senior warriors, including his mentor, find reasonable (again showing that her perspective on his behavior is not considered extreme). He proceeds to make false alarms to continue to ruin Bluefur’s hunts and generally disrupt the patrol.
Smallear and Robinwing nodded. Adderfang watched her, his expression impossible to read. Bluefur felt very uncomfortable giving instructions to senior warriors, but Sunfall had put her in charge of the patrol and she was determined to do things properly.
“Why do I have to be guard?” Thistlepaw complained. “It’s boring.”
Adderfang lashed his tail. “Because you proved back there that hunting is the last thing on your mind today.”
Thistlepaw sullenly flicked a leaf with his paw, but didn’t argue. With a flash of satisfaction, Bluefur leaped up the rocks, her mouth open to taste the air for prey signs. Smallear disappeared into the undergrowth while Adderfang and Robinwing each took a different route up the boulders.
“Look out!” Thistlepaw yowled.
Bluefur tensed, glancing over her shoulder. “What?”
“Nothing,” he reported, studying something on the ground by his front paws. “Just a beetle.”
…
“Snake!” Thistlepaw’s alarm call made Bluefur spin around and peer over the edge, clinging on with her claws as the ground spun far below.
Thistlepaw was looking up at her innocently. “Oops!” he mewed. “It was just Smallear’s tail sticking out of the ferns.
Eventually, a dog attacks. The cats chase it off once, but it comes back to try and take a rabbit caught by Bluefur. The warriors plan to leave it behind, but Thistlepaw grows angry and attacks the dog, driving it off. This leads to him receiving his warrior name.
Bluefur blinked. She’d never seen such courage, however foolish it had been. She stepped back, speechless, as Thistlepaw shouldered past. Stormtail, Sunfall, and Pinestar were standing with their hackles up at the base of the ravine. They watched in amazement as Thistlepaw bounded down the cliff….
Bluefur forced her fur to lie flat. There was so much arrogance in Thistleclaw’s amber stare. What kind of warrior would he make? He was brave, he had proved that, but wariness pricked her belly. Pride had no place in a warrior’s heart. Overconfidence could be dangerous, to his Clanmates as well as himself.
A little while after the ceremony, RiverClan is invading ThunderClan territory again, trying to take some of the territory around Sunningrocks. Sunfall remarks they have plenty of warriors to drive off the small patrol.
Thistleclaw shouldered his way to the front. “We should do more than drive them off,” he growled. “We should give them a battle they won’t forget in a hurry…. We should shred them where they fall, not let them escape[.]”
Sunfall glared at him. “Warriors do not need to shed blood to win battles.”
Pinestar leaves ThunderClan and Sunstar becomes leader. Thistleclaw’s desire to become leader is first mentioned here.
Bluefur longed to be standing in his paw prints. He had lifted his Clan from anxiety to hope. Imagine being up there, looking down at his Clanmates—the power he must feel. Her mouth felt dry with sudden, raw hunger.
Beside her, Thistleclaw leaned closer to Snowfur and whispered in her ear. Pricking her ears, Bluefur strained to hear. “I’m going to be up there one day,” hissed the young warrior, “addressing the Clan.”
Later, Snowfur hunts with Bluefur and tells her of her pregnancy. She describes Thistleclaw as loyal and kind.
“He’ll make a good father, you know.” Snowfur seemed to be trying to reassure her. “I mean, I know you don’t like him, but he is good and kind.”
Bluefur stared at her sister, trying to imagine Thistleclaw being kind. “He’s a loyal mate, and I trust him,” Snowfur insisted.
He is later attentive and affectionate when Snowfur gives birth to Whitekit. Bluefur expresses feeling fond for Thistleclaw in the moment at the sight of his caring for his mate and son.
Later, Snowfur is struck by the monster and killed. Adderfang tells Bluefur to tell Whitekit. Thistleclaw blames Bluefur for Snowfur’s death. Bluefur is distant from Whitekit after Snowfur’s death, until Featherwhisker reminds her she will be the one to teach kindness to Whitekit. Later, when Thistleclaw tries to practice battle moves with Whitekit and Bluefur attempts to intervene, Goosefeather urges her not to let Thistleclaw hurt him.
“Thistleclaw will teach him how to be a fierce warrior,” Featherwhisker murmured. “But who will teach him that softness and strength can exist together? And that loyalty to the Clan comes from the heart, not through teeth and claws?”
…
Goosefeather’s stinky breath stirred her ear fur. “A thistle has thorns sharp as claws,” he whispered. “Don’t let Whitekit get hurt by them.”
…
At least it would get Thistleclaw away from his son for a while. Not that she wanted to separate Whitekit from his father, but Thistleclaw was urging him to do more and more complex battle moves even though the young tom was starting to look tired. Whitekit had not even eaten yet, and the sun was lifting over the trees.
Thistleclaw’s aggression is well-known, and both the Clan’s medicine cats wish for Bluefur to protect Whitekit and teach him kindness (something Thistleclaw has only ever been described to have by Snowfur, his mate).
Thistleclaw and Bluefur go hunting together near the Twolegplace. Thistleclaw wants to leave Clan borders to hunt down kittypets he suspects have invaded, and Bluefur tries to stop him. He insults her and threatens her to stay away from Whitekit.
Thistleclaw leaped down and faced her. “You know what your problem is, Bluefur? You’re soft. Soft on warriors from other Clans and soft on kittypets. I saw you talking to Oakheart at the Gathering. Do you care about your Clan at all?”
“Of course I do!” Bluefur hissed. How dare he make her defend her loyalty? “And I wasn’t exactly having a friendly chat with Oakheart!”
“Well, I need more proof before I let you near Whitekit.” Thistleclaw headed back into the trees.
Bluefur hurried after. “He’s my kin, too!”
“You weren’t there when he needed you,” Thistleclaw snarled. “I was. Just keep away from him…or I’ll make you.”
Some time passes, with Thistleclaw becoming mentor to Tigerpaw. Bluefur helps Goosefeather collect herbs and is reminded that Thistleclaw is a danger to the Clan, and that he is the reason she must become deputy.
Goosefeather growled. “That young warrior is the reason you must become deputy. Blood lies in his path. Fire lies in yours.” Bluefur stopped pulling leaves as she felt the medicine cat’s gaze burn her fur. He was staring at her, his eyes ablaze. “You must concentrate on nothing else!” he hissed. “What could be better in this time of bitter frost than a blazing fire? Your Clan needs you. Don’t let anything distract you!”
Sunstar receives reports of kittypets on the territory (Bluefur suspects from Thistleclaw, who is “spoiling for a fight”). She goes to look for kittypets with Thistleclaw and Tigerpaw.
Baring his teeth, Tigerpaw rushed at Thistleclaw, slamming into his flank. Thistleclaw turned and flung his apprentice away with a hefty blow that left Tigerpaw staggering. “Mouse-brain!” Thistleclaw growled. “You should have seen that coming.”
Tigerpaw shook his head, looking dazed. “Let me try it again,” he begged.
Bluefur hurried forward to interrupt. She couldn’t watch such brutal training. She was sure Leopardfoot had no idea that Tigerpaw’s mentor was so rough with her kit. Should she warn the ThunderClan leader what was going on?
…
Bluefur could smell a faint trace of kittypet. Not strong enough to belong to a full-grown cat. “It’s just a kit,” she meowed. “Not worth following.”
“I forgot you had a soft spot for kittypets,” Thistleclaw growled.
…
A growl rumbled in Thistleclaw’s throat. “What are you doing here? This is ThunderClan territory!”
“Thistleclaw, he’s only a kit. He’s no threat,” Bluefur pleaded.
“An intruder is an intruder, Bluefur! You’ve always been too soft on them.” Bluefur felt sick as Thistleclaw turned to his apprentice. “Here, let’s put it to my apprentice. What do you think, Tigerpaw? How should we handle this?”
“I think the kittypet should be taught a lesson,” Tigerpaw hissed. “One it’ll remember.”
Bluefur stepped forward. “Now, hold on, there’s no need for this—”
Thistleclaw turned on her, arching his back. “Shut up!”
Tigerpaw lunged at the kit, sending it flying like a piece of prey…. Tail bushed in terror, the kit tried to scramble to its paws. But Tigerpaw pounced again. The tabby apprentice pinned the kit to the ground. With claws unsheathed, he swiped at its muzzle, then raked its flank. The kit squealed in agony.
“Show it your teeth, Tigerpaw,” Thistleclaw goaded.
…
“We were only defending ThunderClan territory from invaders,” Thistleclaw snarled.
“That so-called invader was a kit!”
Thistleclaw shrugged. “That’s his problem.” He turned and stalked away between the trees, his spiky pelt soon swallowed in shadow. Tigerpaw trotted after him with his tail up, proud of his brave victory. Rage throbbed in Bluefur’s paws as she stared after them. I’ll never let you take power in this Clan, Thistleclaw!
Though Bluefur has, up until this point, felt ambitions about leadership, this is a key moment in solidifying wanting to keep Thistleclaw from becoming leader. It is also another concrete moment that reinforces her misgivings about him. There is a big time skip between then and Whitestorm’s warrior ceremony. Bluefur notes a scar Whitestorm has, a training injury from when Tigerclaw had unsheathed his claws during their apprenticeship. Thistleclaw had remarked it would teach Whitestorm to react faster, disregarding Bluefur’s comments about Tigerclaw’s lack of respect for his Clanmates.
Bluefur’s romance with Oakheart happens, and she tells him she’ll raise the kits in ThunderClan. At some point, Thistleclaw and Tigerclaw catch him on the edge of ThunderClan territory, and attack him with extreme violence. Oakheart attempts to retreat, and Thistleclaw attempts to prevent him from doing so to punish him. She is pregnant with kits at this point. He becomes obsessive over the idea of keeping out enemies.
She skidded out onto the shore and saw Thistleclaw pinning Oakheart to the stones by his throat. Tigerclaw stood to one side, watching, while Thrushpelt circled nervously, scanning the far bank for cats coming to Oakheart’s rescue. “You filthy fish-eater,” the spiky warrior was growling into Oakheart’s stricken face. “What are you doing on our territory? I should rip your throat out!”
…Tigerclaw stepped forward to block her. “This RiverClan filth is trespassing,” he growled. “We have to punish him.” Staring past him, Bluefur could see blood welling at Oakheart’s throat, turning Thistleclaw’s paws red.
…
“Not so fast.” Thistleclaw sprang in front of him, blocking his exit.
Bluefur darted between them. “Enough, Thistleclaw! You’ve taught him a lesson. I’m sure he won’t come back here again.” She met Oakheart’s gaze and saw nothing but sadness. “Let him go.” Her plea came as a whisper. She was begging for Oakheart, but the words echoed in her heart. Let him go.
Oakheart stumbled past her and slid into the river.
“Traitor!” Thistleclaw shoved Bluefur, sending her stumbling onto her haunches. His claws were still unsheathed and tufted with Oakheart’s fur. “You’re a coward and a fool! I’ve never once seen you defend our borders. What kind of warrior are you?”
…
Thistleclaw lurched away and began to pace up and down the shore, staring across the river. “We need more patrols,” he muttered. “It’s too easy to invade. Too many invaders. Only fear will keep them out. We must mark our borders with the blood of our enemies.” Spittle bubbled at his mouth.
Here Thistleclaw is shown as overly aggressive to a lone intruder, attempting to block his retreat, and is implied to be willing to kill Oakheart. He then attacks Bluefur, a pregnant queen. He briefly becomes obsessed with the idea of intruders, to the point where he is foaming at the mouth over them. This is another concrete moment that makes Bluefur fearful of Thistleclaw.
Goosefeather again reminds Bluefur that Thistleclaw will end ThunderClan if allowed to lead. Later, they both share a vision of Thistleclaw covered in blood, confirming this is not solely Bluefur’s bias/paranoia, nor Goosefeather’s. This convinces her to give up her kits.
Goosefeather turned back to Bluefur, and his blue eyes were as empty as the sky. “If Thistleclaw becomes deputy, it will be the end of ThunderClan.”
Bluefur narrowed her eyes. “My kits need me,” she repeated.
…Bluefur blinked. Thistleclaw’s spiky pelt was glistening. Was he wet? Something dark and sticky was flowing down his pelt. Blood! Thistleclaw was drenched with blood. It oozed from his fur and dripped from his whiskers, staining the snow around him scarlet. Horrified, Bluefur backed away…. She caught Goosefeather’s eye, and he nodded. He’d seen it too. A vision of ThunderClan’s path if Thistleclaw was to lead them.
Bluefur becomes deputy and reflects on everything that makes her wary of Thistleclaw.
If only they had seen him as she had, with his claws at Oakheart’s throat, goading Tigerclaw on to savage a helpless kit, pacing the borders with wildeyed hunger for revenge. The memories gave Bluefur strength. Whatever it had cost her, she was the only cat who could stand in Thistleclaw’s way. Only she knew what he was capable of.
It is important to again emphasize that Bluefur has specific incidents of Thistleclaw’s behavior that reinforce her opinion of him: that he is arrogant, bloodthirsty, and aggressive. Any scenes that serve to possibly counter this - like his playing with Whitekit - are consistently underscored by his violent nature and urgency to teach battle. This is not Bluefur being an unreliable narrator. She did not make up the scenes that reinforce her beliefs. Thistleclaw consistently makes choices and has actions that show he is aggressive, dangerous, and uses excessive force. Additionally, the only cat that describes Thistleclaw as kind is Snowfur, his mate. Thistleclaw does show affection for her, but treating his mate nicely does not counter his witnessed aggressive and violent behavior that continues to build Bluefur’s negative perception of him.
Thistleclaw appears occasionally in Crookedstar’s Promise as a Dark Forest trainee. He is eventually taught the killing bite, which chills Crookedjaw. Thistleclaw insists you must “look beyond the warrior code” to become a great warrior.
Thistleclaw is mentioned repeatedly in The Ultimate Guide, each mention highlighting his ambition and aggression.
Thistleclaw is seen throughout Omen of the Stars in the Dark Forest - I won’t go over his behavior here since at this point he’s just portrayed as evil and his behavior while in the Dark Forest is irrelevant to whether or not he deserved to end up there previously.
I do not have access to Redtail’s Debt and can’t find a PDF, but according to the wiki he “escalates a tense Gathering”.
Spottedleaf’s Heart (content warning ahead) came out in 2017 and reignited the hell discourse that is Thistleclaw’s characterization. As previously stated, Spottedleaf’s Heart is canon. It is an official book published in the Warrior series by the authors of Warriors. It has never been stated by the authors to be non-canon. It is canon, and any arguments that are based in pretending it isn’t will be ignored.
Unfortunately, I also can’t locate the SH pdfs, so plot summary is from the wiki. Thistleclaw gives Spottedkit a gift of feathers for her nest. Soon after she becomes an apprentice, Thistleclaw flatters her often - complimenting her hunting skills as a new apprentice and such. He later takes her on a walk alone. Eventually, Spottedpaw witnesses the confrontation with Tiny, and is upset by his behavior. She confronts him, and is angry when he defends himself. This is in line with previously established canon. Thistleclaw brings her prey as an apology and tells her to meet him at night to go for another walk, and he tells her they could have a future together.
Spottedpaw watches Thistleclaw train in the Dark Forest (also previously established canon) and is upset this, as the training is brutal and Thistleclaw is violent. Later, she is training with Whitepaw and Tigerpaw, and nearly uses a Dark Forest move, which makes her upset. Thistleclaw talks to her and says he would do anything for her because he loves her, a cat younger than his teenage son.
Spottedpaw attempts to convince Thistleclaw to leave the Dark Forest for her so they can be together, which he refuses to do. This is portrayed as what makes him the bad character in the book - not their ****philic relationship. Despite the unsettling nature of their relationship, this is never made the reason their relationship is bad - no character takes issue with Thistleclaw’s age, and Spottedpaw herself never realizes that it was inappropriate. Because there is no textual evidence that the Erins themselves considered the predatory nature of the relationship negative, it’s not reasonable to assert that making Thistleclaw a ****phile was an attempt at “making him look worse” - he is supposed to look bad because he won’t leave the DF for her.
Thistleclaw’s appearances throughout the series reinforce the idea that he is aggressive and violent. Thistleclaw is established as such before Bluestar’s Prophecy, and all his appearances after BP reinforce this. They are not “attempts at making him look worse”. They are consistent with his characterization. The only new characterization comes from the inclusion of his disgusting relationship with newly apprenticed Spottedpaw - which the book does not demonize for being predatory, but because Thistleclaw doesn’t value it over the Dark Forest training.
Thistleclaw’s affection was only ever for his littermates and his mate. Many cats besides Bluefur notice his behavior and express concern, and those that believe him to be a strong and respectable warrior are never present for the behavior that Bluefur repeatedly witnesses. Thistleclaw has concrete actions and behaviors that give Bluefur her strong opinions against him. She is not unreliable as a narrator, and should not be discounted from his characterization - she even has moments where she acknowledges his positive traits, like his bravery and his affection for her sister, despite disliking their relationship. Thistleclaw’s characterization has always been consistent, and he has always been portrayed as aggressive and dangerous.
Many argue that his later appearances are only to make him look worse - but I disagree. His appearances in the Dark Forest were retconned in, yes - but they are entirely consistent with his already canon personality. He trains to become more powerful, learns the killing bite while repeatedly making it clear he is willing to kill outsiders, and gripes about Bluefur’s weaknesses. None of this is out of character for him. All credit goes the blog warriorsfireandwater Never have I agreed with a Tumblr post more. Especially when it says that Bluefur isn't an unreliable narrator. I see this get thrown around so much in general that I feel like people don't actually know what it means. And Bluefur most definitely wasn't one.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Oct 20, 2020 19:56:01 GMT -5
Reading this, I wonder what would have happened to Thistleclaw if Sweetpaw hadn't died. I think both Sweetpaw and Snowfur dying ate away at whatever was keeping him on a straighter path. I heavily disagree with OP that Thistleclaw didn't love Snowfur or Whitestorm, and think if Sweetpaw and Snowfur had lived, he may have been better in control of himself
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 20, 2020 20:16:59 GMT -5
semi-related, i don't trust anyone who tries to defend whatever the hell was going on with Thistleclaw in Spottedleaf's Heart. don't care if it's about fictional cats, still don't trust 'em. Most of us who like Thistleclaw don't defend it, but also think that book is a garbage fire that is so out of character for everyone involved that it is better off ignored. yeah. even without the events of that novella, thistleclaw is still bad...idk why writers feel a need to throw in some weird crap to make a bad character....even "more bad" when the thing they add doesn't make sense or relevant to the reason that character is bad in the first place.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Oct 20, 2020 20:20:46 GMT -5
Most of us who like Thistleclaw don't defend it, but also think that book is a garbage fire that is so out of character for everyone involved that it is better off ignored. yeah. even without the events of that novella, thistleclaw is still bad...idk why writers feel a need to throw in some weird crap to make a bad character....even "more bad" when the thing they add doesn't make sense or relevant to the reason that character is bad in the first place. I like Thistleclaw, but I agree that throwing in some weird shit to try and justify it is...bad But that's Vicky for you
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 20:22:06 GMT -5
Oh, one thing I will say about Snowfur is that she actually wasn't soft and was in fact just as reckless and battle-hungry as some of her other Clanmates, just not as much as say, her mate was. So either Thistleclaw simply remembered her with rose-colored glasses or he was more upset that she lacked his ambition.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 20, 2020 20:25:17 GMT -5
Oh, one thing I will say about Snowfur is that she actually wasn't soft and was in fact just as reckless and battle-hungry as some of her other Clanmates, just not as much as say, her mate was. So either Thistleclaw simply remembered her with rose-colored glasses or he was more upset that she lacked his ambition. yeah we know snowfur isn't weak, but thistleclaw thought that. you're probably right that it has to be about the ambition side of things then. i guess snowfur didn't want or need to seek more power, but thistleclaw felt like he needed more.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 20:33:15 GMT -5
I'm not defending his actions but Thistleclaw clearly loved Snowfur and Whitestorm, at least I thought so
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 20:38:42 GMT -5
Oh, one thing I will say about Snowfur is that she actually wasn't soft and was in fact just as reckless and battle-hungry as some of her other Clanmates, just not as much as say, her mate was. So either Thistleclaw simply remembered her with rose-colored glasses or he was more upset that she lacked his ambition. yeah we know snowfur isn't weak, but thistleclaw thought that. you're probably right that it has to be about the ambition side of things then. i guess snowfur didn't want or need to seek more power, but thistleclaw felt like he needed more. Yeah. And at the time of becoming mates and even their courtship, there'd really be no reason for Thistleclaw to use Snowfur, so I do think he genuinely did love her, but as time went on, he clearly loved power more and probably even regarded Tigerclaw as more of a son than Whitestorm (ex: being dismissive of his own getting scared during training). This doesn't mean he didn't care, it just means he had other priorities. What bothers me though is when people use this as an excuse to say that he was a good cat deep down while not acknowledging the other things he does in the book, usually in favor of demonizing Bluefur. At best, all him having a soft spot for Snowfur says is that he had standards. Basic human (well, cat) decency. If you look at history, even the cruelest dictators had loved ones. Sadly, unlike other fictional examples, this doesn't make Thistleclaw interesting at all, at least in my eyes. For me, he was boring as a character, cat, and antagonist.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 20, 2020 20:40:30 GMT -5
i wonder how snowfur felt when thistle finally died and he didn't ascend to starclan...
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Oct 20, 2020 20:50:36 GMT -5
i wonder how snowfur felt when thistle finally died and he didn't ascend to starclan... I think one of the writers said she'd always love him, so probably pretty heartbroken
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Bisexual
ravenmoon
"I'm smarter than you!" - Gary Smith
Pronouns: Any pronouns fine
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Post by ravenmoon on Oct 20, 2020 20:54:25 GMT -5
I've always hated Thistleclaw. He was always an annoying cat to me.
I was actually more on Bluefur's side about the whole SnowfurXThistleclaw couple tbh. He's always been a bad cat every since his sister's death, I guess either Snowfur didn't see that or she didn't care. I do think he did love Snowfur and Whitekit in his OWN way, even if it be very minor. And just like someone else said Snowfur wasn't the "uwu soft precious baby" that most of the fandom makes her out to be, she's JUST as battle-hungry and reckless just like her clanmates so it kinda makes since that he would go after her romantically. But I like I said I do think he loved Snowfur and Whitekit in his own way though. He just "turned" on Whitekit/paw when he realized he couldn't really mold him into what he could mold Tigerpaw into.
I may be wrong here, but I only really feel like most people who like Thistleclaw only like him because of his relationship with Snowfur. Another thing that annoys me is when people completely demonize Bluefur/star and blame her for everything that mainly Thistleclaw causes.
I just do not like Thistleclaw and the fact that people DEFEND his actions is a little concerning to me
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Oct 20, 2020 21:01:44 GMT -5
i wonder how snowfur felt when thistle finally died and he didn't ascend to starclan... I think one of the writers said she'd always love him, so probably pretty heartbroken in my mind, thistle chose dark forest over her, so i cant imagine how hurt she is
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 21:09:32 GMT -5
I've always hated Thistleclaw. He was always an annoying cat to me. He's always been a bad cat every since his sister's death, I guess either Snowfur didn't see that or she didn't care. Just a bit of a correction here, Thistleclaw was a jerk even before Sweetpaw died, he just ended up getting worse after becoming a warrior. Although, speaking of which, when Sweetpaw died, all Snowfur had to say was that Thistleclaw was a good brother. And I'd probably tolerate the relationship more if Snowfur hadn't seemed so blind to his more battle-hungry side. I don't doubt he was genuinely kind to her, but really. Even Rosetail thought he wouldn't make a good leader.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 21:18:18 GMT -5
Most of us who like Thistleclaw don't defend it, but also think that book is a garbage fire that is so out of character for everyone involved that it is better off ignored. yeah. even without the events of that novella, thistleclaw is still bad...idk why writers feel a need to throw in some weird crap to make a bad character....even "more bad" when the thing they add doesn't make sense or relevant to the reason that character is bad in the first place. Yeah, this confuses me, because in Omen of the Stars, all poor little Antpelt did was train in the DF, and he got sent to the DF, but here is Thistleclaw, who even before that novella, he trained in the DF, and was more aggressive than Antpelt.
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Post by halogen on Oct 20, 2020 21:18:53 GMT -5
I just wish Thistleclaw wouldn't have betrayed his Clan for the DF so we could have an example of a cat who is bad, is clearly portrayed by the narrative as bad, but is actually loyal to his Clan - too loyal. It would be more interesting than the 20th villain who betrays his Clan for POWER. Not that he was ever a very interesting character before the DF stuff, just that the moral dilemma he poses for Bluestar and the flaws in Clan life his existence and actions being accepted enough for him to be a leader candidate demonstrate can be interesting.
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Bisexual
ravenmoon
"I'm smarter than you!" - Gary Smith
Pronouns: Any pronouns fine
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Post by ravenmoon on Oct 20, 2020 21:19:48 GMT -5
I've always hated Thistleclaw. He was always an annoying cat to me. He's always been a bad cat every since his sister's death, I guess either Snowfur didn't see that or she didn't care. Just a bit of a correction here, Thistleclaw was a jerk even before Sweetpaw died, he just ended up getting worse after becoming a warrior. I haven't read Bluestar's Prophecy in a while so I couldn't really remember if he was a jerk before his sister kicked the bucket. Thank you for that.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 21:21:23 GMT -5
I just wish Thistleclaw wouldn't have betrayed his Clan for the DF so we could have an example of a cat who is bad, is clearly portrayed by the narrative as bad, but is actually loyal to his Clan - too loyal. It would be more interesting than the 20th villain who betrays his Clan for POWER. We did get that with Thistleclaw, though. He wants power, yes, but it's pretty clear that his actions are motivated by wanting to protect ThunderClan no matter the cost. Now, whether or not they did this well is another story.
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