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Post by *Ottersplash* on Oct 20, 2020 21:23:19 GMT -5
I just wish Thistleclaw wouldn't have betrayed his Clan for the DF so we could have an example of a cat who is bad, is clearly portrayed by the narrative as bad, but is actually loyal to his Clan - too loyal. It would be more interesting than the 20th villain who betrays his Clan for POWER. We did get that with Thistleclaw though. He wants power, yes, but it's pretty clear that his actions are motivated by wanting to protect ThunderClan no matter the cost. Now, whether or not they did this well is another story. I agree. I feel like he is genuinely loyal to Thunderclan and even Bluestar acknowledges it
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 20, 2020 21:36:03 GMT -5
Thistleclaw's words towards Snowfur were pretty clearly to me part of the Just World fallacy that some people go through while in grief. Essentially, you get this train of thought; “a bad thing happened because someone made a mistake” got twisted into “if you don’t make mistakes, bad things won’t happen to you” got twisted into “if a bad thing happens to you, you must have made a mistake". At least in my mind, that's what the post-death words on Snowfur came off like. Just Thistleclaw in full denial and attempting to rationalize what happened as a function of supposed softness. This is not logical, but people come up with some very illogical trains of thought after tragic incidents occur. I really can't say that says anything about love or lack thereof. Anger towards the dead person happens incredibly often for a variety of reasons. It's just tragic.
His other behavior is excessively violent, but I don't think it's one which necessarily deserves the Dark Forest. As even the OP points out, he doesn't really fit in with the rest of them. But him ending up in the Dark Forest despite that is NOT a sign that he chose it. One need only look at poor Beetlewhisker who was doomed to wander the Dark Forest forever purely because he died while he was there. Antpelt's death too also raises questions about this, as it seems that he didn't want to join but by virtue of dying while being a part of it that was an instant sentence to it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 21:37:50 GMT -5
its always baffled me how much people defend him. hes always been awful, and pretending that sh doesnt exist doesnt change that (and frankly i find saying “sh isnt canon” in his defense to be rather off-putting)
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 21:50:26 GMT -5
its always baffled me how much people defend him. hes always been awful, and pretending that sh doesnt exist doesnt change that (and frankly i find saying “sh isnt canon” in his defense to be rather off-putting) I just don't get this, either. Before he and Snowfur even become mates, he's already a jerk and Bluefur has every right to not like him. And it'd be one thing if he grew out of his arrogance and love for battle, but he never really does. In fact, he just gets worse.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 20, 2020 22:23:01 GMT -5
yeah. even without the events of that novella, thistleclaw is still bad...idk why writers feel a need to throw in some weird crap to make a bad character....even "more bad" when the thing they add doesn't make sense or relevant to the reason that character is bad in the first place. Yeah, this confuses me, because in Omen of the Stars, all poor little Antpelt did was train in the DF, and he got sent to the DF, but here is Thistleclaw, who even before that novella, he trained in the DF, and was more aggressive than Antpelt. I think its implied Antpelt willingly chose the DF
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 22:25:11 GMT -5
Yeah, this confuses me, because in Omen of the Stars, all poor little Antpelt did was train in the DF, and he got sent to the DF, but here is Thistleclaw, who even before that novella, he trained in the DF, and was more aggressive than Antpelt. I think its implied Antpelt willingly chose the DF antpelt outright considers them more his clanmates than windclan was, yeah. depending on if you consider beetlewhiskers death canon, tho, i dont think he wanted to remain there.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 22:25:40 GMT -5
Wasn't Beetlewhisker rescued or something and Antpelt chose the Dark Forest?
Edit: Beetlewhisker's residence is unknown. That's sad :[
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 20, 2020 22:33:02 GMT -5
i dont think she's weak, but thistleclaw clearly did. True. I don't see what she saw in him, because she started coming onto him first, and he acted all annoyed by her most of the time, and then they were mates. Really? I don't remember that, to be honest. I always found they were a good couple, and I thought he got on well with her. I don't remember him being annoyed. I do remember him being annoyed with Bluefur and her right back at him, and whenever Bluefur was around that put him in a pissy mood, but I remember him being quite amazing to Snowfur.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 22:34:57 GMT -5
Saint AmbrosefOh yeah, it's still a bit sad though, especially since he ended up being double killed not too long after FernshiineI might be remembering it wrong, but at first, Thistleclaw seemed annoyed by Snowfur whenever she tried to get close to him (at least when they were apprentices)
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 22:42:59 GMT -5
Saint AmbrosefOh yeah, it's still a bit sad though, especially since he ended up being double killed not too long after FernshiineI might be remembering it wrong, but at first, Thistleclaw seemed annoyed by Snowfur whenever she tried to get close to him (at least when they were apprentices) You're remembering it wrong. The only time Thistleclaw acts rude towards Snowfur is right after she becomes an apprentice and he's still a kit. Any other time after this, they're close.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2020 22:49:01 GMT -5
Saint Ambrosef Oh yeah, it's still a bit sad though, especially since he ended up being double killed not too long after Fernshiine I might be remembering it wrong, but at first, Thistleclaw seemed annoyed by Snowfur whenever she tried to get close to him (at least when they were apprentices) You're remembering it wrong. The only time Thistleclaw acts rude towards Snowfur is right after she becomes an apprentice and he's still a kit. Any other time after this, they're close. Okay, thanks!
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 20, 2020 22:54:50 GMT -5
Saint Ambrosef Oh yeah, it's still a bit sad though, especially since he ended up being double killed not too long after Fernshiine I might be remembering it wrong, but at first, Thistleclaw seemed annoyed by Snowfur whenever she tried to get close to him (at least when they were apprentices) You're remembering it wrong. The only time Thistleclaw acts rude towards Snowfur is right after she becomes an apprentice and he's still a kit. Any other time after this, they're close. Ohhh that makes sense! I remember that as well!
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 20, 2020 23:16:30 GMT -5
Another thing I see often with these discussions is that for whatever reason, other cats are brought up even though they have absolutely nothing to do with Thistleclaw. I always found these to be annoying, to be honest. Relative privation I think it's called? Or at least it's the closest fallacy I can think of.
Yeah, he wasn't as bad as someone like Tigerstar, nor was he the only battle-hungry cat in the series and wasn't the only one who trained in the Dark Forest. Okay, so, what's the point? Because what other cats have done is completely irrelevant to Thistleclaw himself unless we're talking about how his treatment of Tigerclaw helped shape him into the cat he became.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 20, 2020 23:40:15 GMT -5
I think its implied Antpelt willingly chose the DF antpelt outright considers them more his clanmates than windclan was, yeah. depending on if you consider beetlewhiskers death canon, tho, i dont think he wanted to remain there. That's not an entirely fair accounting of how he said it. ""There are my clanmates, more than Windclan ever was," Antpelt told her with a trace of regret in his voice. "Where else could I go?" Ivypool couldn't answer that question." The regret in his voice combined with the fact that Ivypool has no real answer as to an alternative does not make me think it was as free a choice as that.
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Post by Lizard 🦎 on Oct 21, 2020 1:51:26 GMT -5
I've never encountered a person who likes Thistleclaw, so reading this thread and seeing another perspective on him is really interesting. I've never really liked him much though. He just comes off as really mean, like what he did to Scourge when he was only a kit. And the purposeful scaring away of prey. And I'm not even talking about his actions in Spottedleaf's Heart.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Oct 21, 2020 6:09:05 GMT -5
I do think Thistleclaw genuinely did love Snowfur and Whitestorm though, villains aren't incapable of feeling love. While the whole Spottedleaf thing, he was obviously manipulating her to get her into the Dark Forest. I personally liked him, but the inconsistency of his character thanks to the Erins being indecisive has caused quite a bit issues in his overall character.
Also, you really shouldn't judge people based on characters they like or how they personally feel and see them. Just remember that they're fictional characters.
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Post by Uмвяᴀ on Oct 21, 2020 8:42:51 GMT -5
I always thought he was a bad person. He was violent with his apprentice and ordered said apprentice to beat up a small kit. And that was in BP when he was at his best. As a character, I didn't care for him until Spottedleaf's Heart. Now I loathe him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2020 9:50:32 GMT -5
antpelt outright considers them more his clanmates than windclan was, yeah. depending on if you consider beetlewhiskers death canon, tho, i dont think he wanted to remain there. That's not an entirely fair accounting of how he said it. ""There are my clanmates, more than Windclan ever was," Antpelt told her with a trace of regret in his voice. "Where else could I go?" Ivypool couldn't answer that question." The regret in his voice combined with the fact that Ivypool has no real answer as to an alternative does not make me think it was as free a choice as that. ah, okay. i havent read oots in a long while, i misremembered that scene. thanks!
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 21, 2020 20:27:08 GMT -5
antpelt outright considers them more his clanmates than windclan was, yeah. depending on if you consider beetlewhiskers death canon, tho, i dont think he wanted to remain there. That's not an entirely fair accounting of how he said it. ""There are my clanmates, more than Windclan ever was," Antpelt told her with a trace of regret in his voice. "Where else could I go?" Ivypool couldn't answer that question." The regret in his voice combined with the fact that Ivypool has no real answer as to an alternative does not make me think it was as free a choice as that. Perhaps. But I do think Antpelt enjoyed training in the Dark Forest far more than being ostracized by WindClan, similar to how Breezpelt would've felt. Granted, Antpelt had a mate so I would find it strange of him to say that.
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Post by andy on Oct 23, 2020 0:37:47 GMT -5
i find thistleclaw interesting and i honestly like him a decent bit- this is mainly because i think spottedleaf's heart was absolutely awful and probably the worst written warriors book (for multiple reasons), so i try to ignore it to the best of my ability. it was an infuriating read- but he is NOT a good person.
i think he did love snowfur and whitestorm at least for a time in his life, but other than that he was incredibly aggressive, almost always looking for a fight, typically unfriendly, and eager to kill. he's not a good guy.
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Post by halogen on Oct 24, 2020 16:35:41 GMT -5
We did get that with Thistleclaw though. He wants power, yes, but it's pretty clear that his actions are motivated by wanting to protect ThunderClan no matter the cost. Now, whether or not they did this well is another story. I agree. I feel like he is genuinely loyal to Thunderclan and even Bluestar acknowledges it Yes, but I felt that was undermined by how, after his death, he is completely enthusiastic about the DF's plan to destroy all the Clans and just became another villain who hates the Clans and the code. I wish he had either gotten into StarClan or been in the DF but not participated in their plans.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2020 18:16:11 GMT -5
I agree. I feel like he is genuinely loyal to Thunderclan and even Bluestar acknowledges it Yes, but I felt that was undermined by how, after his death, he is completely enthusiastic about the DF's plan to destroy all the Clans and just became another villain who hates the Clans and the code. I wish he had either gotten into StarClan or been in the DF but not participated in their plans. i feel like maybe him turning on the clan itself was a sort of “if you dont want/appreciate me, youll pay for it” kind of thing? like, in his own twisted way, he felt betrayed that he never got leadership of the clan.
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Post by Fernshiine on Oct 24, 2020 18:27:06 GMT -5
I agree. I feel like he is genuinely loyal to Thunderclan and even Bluestar acknowledges it Yes, but I felt that was undermined by how, after his death, he is completely enthusiastic about the DF's plan to destroy all the Clans and just became another villain who hates the Clans and the code. I wish he had either gotten into StarClan or been in the DF but not participated in their plans. I genuinely don't understand why he was like this. Even when he was alive he seemed to follow Bluestar as he followed any leader despite how he didn't like her much. She even missed him a tiny tiny bit by the time of his death. At least somewhat. Perhaps it was because he wanted Tigerstar to have been leader or something, I dunno.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Oct 24, 2020 18:43:08 GMT -5
Yes, but I felt that was undermined by how, after his death, he is completely enthusiastic about the DF's plan to destroy all the Clans and just became another villain who hates the Clans and the code. I wish he had either gotten into StarClan or been in the DF but not participated in their plans. I genuinely don't understand why he was like this. Even when he was alive he seemed to follow Bluestar as he followed any leader despite how he didn't like her much. She even missed him a tiny tiny bit by the time of his death. At least somewhat. Perhaps it was because he wanted Tigerstar to have been leader or something, I dunno. Following Bluestar doesn't really mean anything, though. It just means he had enough standards than to cause trouble for his leader, even if it was Bluestar. Besides that, it's pretty obvious he still had alot of resentment buried deep down, even when she chose Redtail as deputy.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 24, 2020 20:59:15 GMT -5
The Dark Forest is so nasty that its mere presence in the living world was distorting it into becoming like the Dark Forest. Someone's personality after being there for a long time is not going to be the same as before it.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Oct 25, 2020 1:56:52 GMT -5
That's not an entirely fair accounting of how he said it. ""There are my clanmates, more than Windclan ever was," Antpelt told her with a trace of regret in his voice. "Where else could I go?" Ivypool couldn't answer that question." The regret in his voice combined with the fact that Ivypool has no real answer as to an alternative does not make me think it was as free a choice as that. Perhaps. But I do think Antpelt enjoyed training in the Dark Forest far more than being ostracized by WindClan, similar to how Breezpelt would've felt. Granted, Antpelt had a mate so I would find it strange of him to say that. i don't think swallow is ever confirmed to be his mate, just a friend. that being said, it was still a free choice on antpelt's part to relish destroying the clans. he's noted to be preeetty into it really quickly after his death. maybe he didn't fit in well in windclan, but that doesn't mean he couldn't go to starclan--he made that judgement for himself, it seems.
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 25, 2020 9:14:06 GMT -5
Perhaps. But I do think Antpelt enjoyed training in the Dark Forest far more than being ostracized by WindClan, similar to how Breezpelt would've felt. Granted, Antpelt had a mate so I would find it strange of him to say that. i don't think swallow is ever confirmed to be his mate, just a friend. that being said, it was still a free choice on antpelt's part to relish destroying the clans. he's noted to be preeetty into it really quickly after his death. maybe he didn't fit in well in windclan, but that doesn't mean he couldn't go to starclan--he made that judgement for himself, it seems. That's the weird part though. He risked his life to save Ivypool, I don't think it makes any sense if he's meant to be such a gung-ho supporter. And even after his death, it does sound like he felt he had no choice in going to Starclan. If Beetlewhisker is any indication, then he was right, and dying there taints you.
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Post by halogen on Oct 25, 2020 11:39:41 GMT -5
It's weird how people only just Thistleclaw/Antpelt by their actions when they were alive but whenever a Mapleshade debate appears people argue that her actions in the DF with Crookedstar destroy any remaining sympathy for her. You see that with StarClan cats too, where some cats (Moth Flight!) are hated because of how they acted after death but for others people only focus on their actions while alive (e.g most people don't like how Bluestar acts in StarClan, but her justifying SkyClan's exile is never brought up in debates about her, only her actions while alive, or how everyone thought how Gray Wing acted at the end of Shadowstar's Life was stupid but no one hates Gray Wing because of it).
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Post by vectoring34 on Oct 25, 2020 14:00:54 GMT -5
It's weird how people only just Thistleclaw/Antpelt by their actions when they were alive but whenever a Mapleshade debate appears people argue that her actions in the DF with Crookedstar destroy any remaining sympathy for her. You see that with StarClan cats too, where some cats (Moth Flight!) are hated because of how they acted after death but for others people only focus on their actions while alive (e.g most people don't like how Bluestar acts in StarClan, but her justifying SkyClan's exile is never brought up in debates about her, only her actions while alive, or how everyone thought how Gray Wing acted at the end of Shadowstar's Life was stupid but no one hates Gray Wing because of it). I don't think a single soul on the planet has made or broken their opinion on Mapleshade based on her DF appearances. It has never been mentioned in the countless threads about her morality, and I'm not entirely sure where you're getting that this is some common thing.
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Post by jayfeather1234 on Oct 25, 2020 14:10:14 GMT -5
Thistleclaw was terrible even way back in BP, so needless to say, I've never liked him. He was a jerk even before Sweetpaw and Snowfur died, and he only ended up getting worse. Bluestar also had no obligation to accept him either if he wasn't giving her any reason to. Actually, Bluestar had no choice but to keep him in Thunderclan because she needed to keep an eye on her enemy.
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