Agender
#000000
Name Colour
Leapkit
Finder of Rare Friend Error
Derealizing for the forseeable future
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Post by Leapkit on Aug 31, 2022 15:00:19 GMT -5
Exhausted of accidentally coming across as an asshole and jot even realizing it until someone starts to yell at me and I break down and cry because I can't do anything right and I don't even know what exactly I'm doing wrong. this is honestly a mood. there have been multiple times that people have caused drama because they interpret my straightforwardness and honesty as passive-aggression or otherwise hiding some sort of ulterior motive against them (mostly other women). Trying to account for that any time I talk to someone who doesn't know me well is exhausting. Honestly, it's not always you doing something "wrong", there's a lot of people who for one reason or another have learned to interpret neutral behavior as hostile and/or assume ill-intent from others. People thinking you're an asshole just for being socially clumsy or blunt isn't your fault. It wasn't until I was 22 that I learned that apparently in girl world, you're supposed to subtly hint or let other women "read between the lines". Which means if you're just honest upfront about your thoughts/feelings, either (a) girls will end up reading into something that isn't there, or (b) it's interpreted as aggression. And if you don't read between their "lines" or miss their subtle hints, then you look like a jerk who ignores their feelings.
I never knew this until my best friend in college had to explain it to me (by which points I'd unwittingly hurt/pissed of several people). I was so f-ing mad. What a stupid way to expect other people to communicate, and yet I was apparently the asshole for not instinctually knowing that. YES. YES TO ALL OF THAT. Honestly, it makes me feel like they're the jerks sometimes because if you need/want something, just TELL me. If you can't communicate that that doesn't mean I'm trying to be an asshole, it means you can't communicate properly. But to add on- theres a lot of times I just have very dry humor or like through text I might exaggerate or just have quips and... my humor does not play well with others? My delivery both irl and online is usually pretty straight-faced or I do this thing where I tell a joke, and sit there with a look on my face waiting for the other person to get and laugh at my joke but then it gets read as a sneer and people have thought I was making fun of them? Dakota has pointed this out to me that I do that entirely subconscusly and it might seem mean to people who don't know me very well and sometimes even people who DO know me. Theres a handful of people who get my jokes and think I'm funny but it stings when someone thinks I'm mocking them and then I don't ever have a very good defense because I know "I was just joking" is not an apology and gets seen as back-tracking. And it's like. I can't really change or mask my kind of humor and what I think is funny. I don't ever make edgy jokes or jokes that were offensive. It's all in my delivery that they have a problem with. And I can't deliver it any differently. I'm not one of those people that... i don't know, starts laughing post-joke, or smiling and giggly while telling it. |
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Post by Amber on Aug 31, 2022 15:11:18 GMT -5
Again, those are all MAJOR predator red flags. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say block and run away. He is grooming you. Any normal adult man would not be interested chatting/flirting with a teenager, and the fact that he made previous comments about being interested in you sexually as soon as you turn 18 is textbook p***phile behavior. The fact that you initiated doesn't change the fact that he not only allowed it, but has been continuing it, when he should have immediately shut you down and told you it wasn't appropriate. There is never, ever a good or acceptable reason for an adult man to mention offhandedly that they'd be down to "get intimate" with a teenager once they're legal age. It is very, very common for predators to target lonely teenagers because it's easy to convince them to trust and open up just by being nice to them. It's exploiting their need for friendship in order to get close and build "trust" with their victim, so that the victim doesn't question much when the predator guides them toward a more sexual relationship. I literally cannot stress enough that you are being groomed and that man is a predator, please please block him. I get what you're saying, it just makes me feel bad to think about him like that, because he seems like a nice person, just kind of awkward, but I also know that sometimes people can put on a front. What worries me though, is that he always talks about how depressed he is, and a few days ago, he was telling me about how he had a break down and started getting his affairs in order, and that he was going to end everything, and that no one likes him and I'm his only friend, and I don't want to make his life worse. Everything Saint Ambrosef said is correct and like she said, block him and run. The suicide threat is nothing more than that--a threat to get you to continue to talk to/interact with him. My ex boyfriend pulled that same garbage against me back in high school, and it was nothing more than a manipulation tactic to get me to feel bad enough to get back together with him. Block him everywhere you guys communicate and don't talk to him again. Also, a grown man shouldn't be telling any of that to an eighteen year old. Not only is that highly manipulatve and inappropriate, his feelings/mental health are not your responsibility. |
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Post by Eelusion on Aug 31, 2022 15:25:05 GMT -5
I get what you're saying, it just makes me feel bad to think about him like that, because he seems like a nice person, just kind of awkward, but I also know that sometimes people can put on a front. What worries me though, is that he always talks about how depressed he is, and a few days ago, he was telling me about how he had a break down and started getting his affairs in order, and that he was going to end everything, and that no one likes him and I'm his only friend, and I don't want to make his life worse. Everything Saint Ambrosef said is correct and like she said, block him and run. The suicide threat is nothing more than that--a threat to get you to continue to talk to/interact with him. My ex boyfriend pulled that same garbage against me back in high school, and it was nothing more than a manipulation tactic to get me to feel bad enough to get back together with him. Block him everywhere you guys communicate and don't talk to him again. Also, a grown man shouldn't be telling any of that to an eighteen year old. Not only is that highly manipulatve and inappropriate, his feelings/mental health are not your responsibility. I hope you're doing okay now after dealing with that. He's constantly talking about his problems that he has going on with his family, work, his undiagnosed mental health issues which he can't afford to see, but he can afford to drop like 2 grand on something that he uses for like a week and never again. I wouldn't mind it so much if he wasn't hypocritical about some things. Like, the other day, he was complaining about how his mom's friend wanted him to get something for him, and he was like "I'm going to do this one favor for this guy, and be stuck doing favors for him my whole life." And I was like "You don't HAVE to do it." That irritates me, he is always saying that he HAS to do something like he doesn't have his own mind, like no one is holding him hostage, and I get that he probably has anxiety issues and stuff, but I can't help but to feel a bit irritated because he can get help but won't he makes his life harder for himself, and it irritates me because he blames everyone and everything else around him. And then he was like "He wouldn't do the same for me." And I was like "Did you even ask?" And he was like "No." And I said hypocritical before, because he had to move back home because he couldn't feed himself because he doesn't know how to cook (or use microwaves apparently) I hope this doesn't come off as ableist, and I'm sorry if it does, I just can't wrap my head around his logic sometimes. Also, sorry for going on a bit of a rant, but just thinking about that sparks my button of annoyance. |
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Cloudstorm
Don’t let it kill you. Even when it hurts like hell.
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Post by Cloudstorm on Aug 31, 2022 15:30:35 GMT -5
Again, those are all MAJOR predator red flags. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say block and run away. He is grooming you. Any normal adult man would not be interested chatting/flirting with a teenager, and the fact that he made previous comments about being interested in you sexually as soon as you turn 18 is textbook p***phile behavior. The fact that you initiated doesn't change the fact that he not only allowed it, but has been continuing it, when he should have immediately shut you down and told you it wasn't appropriate. There is never, ever a good or acceptable reason for an adult man to mention offhandedly that they'd be down to "get intimate" with a teenager once they're legal age. It is very, very common for predators to target lonely teenagers because it's easy to convince them to trust and open up just by being nice to them. It's exploiting their need for friendship in order to get close and build "trust" with their victim, so that the victim doesn't question much when the predator guides them toward a more sexual relationship. I literally cannot stress enough that you are being groomed and that man is a predator, please please block him. I get what you're saying, it just makes me feel bad to think about him like that, because he seems like a nice person, just kind of awkward, but I also know that sometimes people can put on a front. What worries me though, is that he always talks about how depressed he is, and a few days ago, he was telling me about how he had a break down and started getting his affairs in order, and that he was going to end everything, and that no one likes him and I'm his only friend, and I don't want to make his life worse. Everything that Amber & Saint Ambrosef is 100% correct. As soon as anything remotely sexual is mentioned from an adult towards a minor. Law enforcement should get involved. They both covered everything wrong about his behavior, so don’t need to cover that. But will add that it’s the type of reluctancy that your having to just immediately blocking and desisting any type of communication with him, is frankly what keeps these types of people on the streets. The guys a degenerate, and you shouldn’t feel any reluctancy getting the appropriate authorities involved and getting him jailed. Simply cutting off contact isn’t enough, because he’s going to find someone else who’s vulnerable to take as his next victim. And that’s a guaranteed fact. |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 31, 2022 15:30:44 GMT -5
Everything Saint Ambrosef said is correct and like she said, block him and run. The suicide threat is nothing more than that--a threat to get you to continue to talk to/interact with him. My ex boyfriend pulled that same garbage against me back in high school, and it was nothing more than a manipulation tactic to get me to feel bad enough to get back together with him. Block him everywhere you guys communicate and don't talk to him again. Also, a grown man shouldn't be telling any of that to an eighteen year old. Not only is that highly manipulatve and inappropriate, his feelings/mental health are not your responsibility. I hope you're doing okay now after dealing with that. He's constantly talking about his problems that he has going on with his family, work, his undiagnosed mental health issues which he can't afford to see, but he can afford to drop like 2 grand on something that he uses for like a week and never again. I wouldn't mind it so much if he wasn't hypocritical about some things. Like, the other day, he was complaining about how his mom's friend wanted him to get something for him, and he was like "I'm going to do this one favor for this guy, and be stuck doing favors for him my whole life." And I was like "You don't HAVE to do it." That irritates me, he is always saying that he HAS to do something like he doesn't have his own mind, like no one is holding him hostage, and I get that he probably has anxiety issues and stuff, but I can't help but to feel a bit irritated because he can get help but won't he makes his life harder for himself, and it irritates me because he blames everyone and everything else around him. And then he was like "He wouldn't do the same for me." And I was like "Did you even ask?" And he was like "No." And I said hypocritical before, because he had to move back home because he couldn't feed himself because he doesn't know how to cook (or use microwaves apparently) I hope this doesn't come off as ableist, and I'm sorry if it does, I just can't wrap my head around his logic sometimes. Also, sorry for going on a bit of a rant, but just thinking about that sparks my button of annoyance. grooming aside, he sounds toxic and you should definitely distance yourself. |
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Post by Eelusion on Aug 31, 2022 15:37:37 GMT -5
CloudstormYou make a very good point about other people, I wouldn't want anyone else to potentially get hurt or anything. I think I will report him to discord, but he lives in another country, so I'm not sure how getting law enforcement involved would work. Saint AmbrosefI unfriended him for a day, and then became friends with him again once we made up, because he said that my disorder freaked him out. But you and other people have made some really good points, and I think I will distance myself from him.
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Post by Amber on Aug 31, 2022 16:26:30 GMT -5
Everything Saint Ambrosef said is correct and like she said, block him and run. The suicide threat is nothing more than that--a threat to get you to continue to talk to/interact with him. My ex boyfriend pulled that same garbage against me back in high school, and it was nothing more than a manipulation tactic to get me to feel bad enough to get back together with him. Block him everywhere you guys communicate and don't talk to him again. Also, a grown man shouldn't be telling any of that to an eighteen year old. Not only is that highly manipulatve and inappropriate, his feelings/mental health are not your responsibility. I hope you're doing okay now after dealing with that. He's constantly talking about his problems that he has going on with his family, work, his undiagnosed mental health issues which he can't afford to see, but he can afford to drop like 2 grand on something that he uses for like a week and never again. I wouldn't mind it so much if he wasn't hypocritical about some things. Like, the other day, he was complaining about how his mom's friend wanted him to get something for him, and he was like "I'm going to do this one favor for this guy, and be stuck doing favors for him my whole life." And I was like "You don't HAVE to do it." That irritates me, he is always saying that he HAS to do something like he doesn't have his own mind, like no one is holding him hostage, and I get that he probably has anxiety issues and stuff, but I can't help but to feel a bit irritated because he can get help but won't he makes his life harder for himself, and it irritates me because he blames everyone and everything else around him. And then he was like "He wouldn't do the same for me." And I was like "Did you even ask?" And he was like "No." And I said hypocritical before, because he had to move back home because he couldn't feed himself because he doesn't know how to cook (or use microwaves apparently) I hope this doesn't come off as ableist, and I'm sorry if it does, I just can't wrap my head around his logic sometimes. Also, sorry for going on a bit of a rant, but just thinking about that sparks my button of annoyance. It sucked to deal with at the time, but we were both in eleventh grade and it's been a little over five years now. Honestly, there are some things I look back on and laugh about now. Anyway, you don't need to apologize for venting/ranting. That man is grooming you and is generally a toxic person. I'm glad your distancing yourself from him. You don't need someone like that in your life. |
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Post by Eelusion on Aug 31, 2022 16:31:29 GMT -5
AmberTy, I'm really appreciative for everything you said, and everything that everyone else has said. I'm also glad that no one got mad at me, I was fully expecting people to go off on me about talking to an older guy and potentially getting him in trouble so ty for that as well.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Aug 31, 2022 17:27:23 GMT -5
AmberTy, I'm really appreciative for everything you said, and everything that everyone else has said. I'm also glad that no one got mad at me, I was fully expecting people to go off on me about talking to an older guy and potentially getting him in trouble so ty for that as well. Getting mad at a young person for talking to an older man would be like getting mad at the toddler for playing with the matches their older siblings handed them. Like it's not a good thing but someone here is really f-ing up, and it's not you. |
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Post by Eelusion on Aug 31, 2022 17:32:52 GMT -5
Amber Ty, I'm really appreciative for everything you said, and everything that everyone else has said. I'm also glad that no one got mad at me, I was fully expecting people to go off on me about talking to an older guy and potentially getting him in trouble so ty for that as well. Getting mad at a young person for talking to an older man would be like getting mad at the toddler for playing with the matches their older siblings handed them. Like it's not a good thing but someone here is really f-ing up, and it's not you. I really like that analogy. I've stopped talking to him. |
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Post by downfalls on Sept 1, 2022 7:03:50 GMT -5
ex friend apologized and i dont even know how to feel about it, because she just recently stated that she wants to get more videos uploaded than me as if its a competition and im too tired to compete.
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Post by Tealraven on Sept 1, 2022 17:58:26 GMT -5
Being a woman or afab with “traditionally masculine” or male-dominated hobbies and interests is so exhausting. Every conversation is either competition, trying to show off, sexist, bad flirting, or all of the above. LEAVE ME IN PEACE
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Non-binary
#F4B548
Name Colour
Dark Sun
Sage of the Stars
I'm devious, I'm devilish, I'm ever so deliciously evil
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Post by Dark Sun on Sept 2, 2022 12:24:27 GMT -5
So I was reading a post about how someone loves to roleplay in Skyrim and what their favorite builds are. It was a genuinely insightful and fascinating read!
Until about half-way through when they mentioned how "dangerous" trans people are. It wasn't out of the blue, but I don't feel the need to give the context here.
Well, onto something else to do!
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Agender
#000000
Name Colour
Leapkit
Finder of Rare Friend Error
Derealizing for the forseeable future
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Post by Leapkit on Sept 2, 2022 13:29:00 GMT -5
So I was reading a post about how someone loves to roleplay in Skyrim and what their favorite builds are. It was a genuinely insightful and fascinating read! Until about half-way through when they mentioned how "dangerous" trans people are. It wasn't out of the blue, but I don't feel the need to give the context here. Well, onto something else to do! That's such a random and upsetting topic derail that, even in-context had no business being included. |
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Post by Eelusion on Sept 3, 2022 11:24:52 GMT -5
They say first impressions are everything, and I've ruined it.
I'm also extremely hurt by the fact that people like the fact that I got in trouble.
Also, I hate when stuff I order arrives broken.
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Agender
#000000
Name Colour
Leapkit
Finder of Rare Friend Error
Derealizing for the forseeable future
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Post by Leapkit on Sept 3, 2022 14:50:47 GMT -5
They say first impressions are everything, and I've ruined it. I'm also extremely hurt by the fact that people like the fact that I got in trouble. Also, I hate when stuff I order arrives broken. I wouldn't worry about it too much, all of warriors general acts like that 24/7 and you weren't even snarky. |
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Post by Eelusion on Sept 3, 2022 15:18:57 GMT -5
They say first impressions are everything, and I've ruined it. I'm also extremely hurt by the fact that people like the fact that I got in trouble. Also, I hate when stuff I order arrives broken. I wouldn't worry about it too much, all of warriors general acts like that 24/7 and you weren't even snarky. Ty, that honestly makes me feel a bit better. |
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Agender
#000000
Name Colour
Leapkit
Finder of Rare Friend Error
Derealizing for the forseeable future
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Post by Leapkit on Sept 3, 2022 16:18:03 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry about it too much, all of warriors general acts like that 24/7 and you weren't even snarky. Ty, that honestly makes me feel a bit better. Yeah. Theres a reason I don't engage with this fandom outside of using the forums to talk to and make friends and only discuss books with people I'm familiar with. Wg likes to find any possible reason to fight and be petty. Honestly even warriors amino did it the brief time I was there too. This fandom is very toxic and hostile to newcomers, especially if you dont 100% agree with every popular opinion or niche micro fandom celebrity opinion youtuber like moonkitti and etc. |
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Post by Eelusion on Sept 3, 2022 16:47:29 GMT -5
Ty, that honestly makes me feel a bit better. Yeah. Theres a reason I don't engage with this fandom outside of using the forums to talk to and make friends and only discuss books with people I'm familiar with. Wg likes to find any possible reason to fight and be petty. Honestly even warriors amino did it the brief time I was there too. This fandom is very toxic and hostile to newcomers, especially if you dont 100% agree with every popular opinion or niche micro fandom celebrity opinion youtuber like moonkitti and etc. That's terrible, Idk why people have got to be like that. Honestly, I was more upset about the fact that I got in trouble and that people liked that, it was so humiliating, than what the person said, though that did annoy me a lot. I was considering deleting, but the forums are a big place and maybe there's a chance I can still make friends, so I might stick it out for a little bit longer, ty again. |
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Agender
#000000
Name Colour
Leapkit
Finder of Rare Friend Error
Derealizing for the forseeable future
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Post by Leapkit on Sept 3, 2022 17:27:25 GMT -5
When people like the mods stepping in I promise it's not cause they're happy you got in trouble, more than likely they are just happy *that* a mod stepped in before stuff went from a disagreement to an all-out fight.
I mean maybe theres a few petty people, but you're like... too new for people to have formed a blatantly negative opinion about you yet.
There are definitely some repeat offenders or trolls that people are glad get in trouble but you dont fall into those categories. I snooped and it seemed like you had a pretty fair question that the other person just responded by being hostile and treating you like you were stupid which really bugged me.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 3, 2022 18:01:15 GMT -5
wait what happened in WG? Did i somehow miss something
EDIT: oh that??? dont worry about it, WG has seen far worse lol. nobody will think ill of you because of a snarky comment one time. its barely a blip in the radar, pretty much everyone has done that before.
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Post by rabbit on Sept 3, 2022 19:46:14 GMT -5
Eelusion I was so confused by that thread because I didn’t think you being *snarky*. I mean whatever right? I’ve watch people get piled on here by users and mods and all I can do is laugh at the trainwreck happening. I would say it’s not very professional but it’s not like I’m paying to be here. fhfjgk
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Post by Eelusion on Sept 3, 2022 20:49:29 GMT -5
Leapkit, Saint Ambrosef, rabbitTy for your comments and for making me feel better about all of this. As for my snarky comment, I deleted it so I don't know if you actually saw it beforehand or not. If not, from what I can remember, I basically thanked them (but not actually) for not wanting to hurt my brain to explain challenging things to me that I wouldn't be able to handle. It was pretty snarky though I'll admit, but I don't like being called stupid.
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 3, 2022 22:01:56 GMT -5
I honestly thought your response was really funny, but Sand was nevertheless right to step in, because stuff like that has quickly devolved into ugly mudslinging in the past that has derailed threads and gotten them deleted. The frustration is understandable, it’s just good policy for the mods to stop that stuff before it potentially gets worse.
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Post by Eelusion on Sept 3, 2022 22:06:49 GMT -5
I honestly thought your response was really funny, but Sand was nevertheless right to step in, because stuff like that has quickly devolved into ugly mudslinging in the past that has derailed threads and gotten them deleted. The frustration is understandable, it’s just good policy for the mods to stop that stuff before it potentially gets worse. Ty lol. Yeah, I fully understand that I deserved to get in trouble, I mostly just worried that I'm now on the list. Like, the list that the teachers give subs of bad students to look out for. Now I'm a bit hesitant to say much in case... I just don't want to be seen as a problem person, but hopefully it will all blow over and be forgotten soon. |
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Post by Saint Ambrosef on Sept 3, 2022 22:51:23 GMT -5
I honestly thought your response was really funny, but Sand was nevertheless right to step in, because stuff like that has quickly devolved into ugly mudslinging in the past that has derailed threads and gotten them deleted. The frustration is understandable, it’s just good policy for the mods to stop that stuff before it potentially gets worse. Ty lol. Yeah, I fully understand that I deserved to get in trouble, I mostly just worried that I'm now on the list. Like, the list that the teachers give subs of bad students to look out for. Now I'm a bit hesitant to say much in case... I just don't want to be seen as a problem person, but hopefully it will all blow over and be forgotten soon. People don't get divided up into lists between "bad" and "good", Sand isn't Santa Clause lol. She and the other mods are very fair. As long as you respect the rules and pay heed if a mod asks you to stop something, they're not going to consider you a "problem person". It's usually when an individual ignore mods' warnings and consistently start crap with others that they're seen as a troublemaker. |
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Post by Sand on Sept 4, 2022 4:02:21 GMT -5
I honestly thought your response was really funny, but Sand was nevertheless right to step in, because stuff like that has quickly devolved into ugly mudslinging in the past that has derailed threads and gotten them deleted. The frustration is understandable, it’s just good policy for the mods to stop that stuff before it potentially gets worse. Ty lol. Yeah, I fully understand that I deserved to get in trouble, I mostly just worried that I'm now on the list. Like, the list that the teachers give subs of bad students to look out for. Now I'm a bit hesitant to say much in case... I just don't want to be seen as a problem person, but hopefully it will all blow over and be forgotten soon. You can always explain how you feel about my posts and whatnot since I responded to yours. I’m open to hearing your opinion. For what it’s worth, I prefer to grab the posts that may turn into something worse before they do. It’s easier for me to nip things in the bud before an argument starts. However, I should have given the posts more time in this case. I should’ve waited while watching the thread. For that, I apologize. I didn’t want to make you feel hesitant or worried about being in trouble. You’re not in any trouble at all. Also, I’m sorry that the first impression did not go well for you. Please let us (staff) know if there’s anything we can do to improve that. |
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Post by Sand on Sept 4, 2022 5:09:54 GMT -5
Eelusion I was so confused by that thread because I didn’t think you being *snarky*. I mean whatever right? I’ve watch people get piled on here by users and mods and all I can do is laugh at the trainwreck happening. I would say it’s not very professional but it’s not like I’m paying to be here. fhfjgk If you ever see people get “piled on here,” please report it asap. It’s helpful to staff & other members. Helps us figure out what’s going on if we’re offline too. |
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Post by Eelusion on Sept 4, 2022 10:11:40 GMT -5
Ty lol. Yeah, I fully understand that I deserved to get in trouble, I mostly just worried that I'm now on the list. Like, the list that the teachers give subs of bad students to look out for. Now I'm a bit hesitant to say much in case... I just don't want to be seen as a problem person, but hopefully it will all blow over and be forgotten soon. You can always explain how you feel about my posts and whatnot since I responded to yours. I’m open to hearing your opinion. For what it’s worth, I prefer to grab the posts that may turn into something worse before they do. It’s easier for me to nip things in the bud before an argument starts. However, I should have given the posts more time in this case. I should’ve waited while watching the thread. For that, I apologize. I didn’t want to make you feel hesitant or worried about being in trouble. You’re not in any trouble at all. Also, I’m sorry that the first impression did not go well for you. Please let us (staff) know if there’s anything we can do to improve that. Oh thank god, I really appreciate you saying that, and I'll keep that in mind for next time, but hopefully there won't be a next time. |
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Post by Sand on Sept 4, 2022 10:23:02 GMT -5
You can always explain how you feel about my posts and whatnot since I responded to yours. I’m open to hearing your opinion. For what it’s worth, I prefer to grab the posts that may turn into something worse before they do. It’s easier for me to nip things in the bud before an argument starts. However, I should have given the posts more time in this case. I should’ve waited while watching the thread. For that, I apologize. I didn’t want to make you feel hesitant or worried about being in trouble. You’re not in any trouble at all. Also, I’m sorry that the first impression did not go well for you. Please let us (staff) know if there’s anything we can do to improve that. Oh thank god, I really appreciate you saying that, and I'll keep that in mind for next time, but hopefully there won't be a next time. You’re welcome! Don’t worry about it at all. |
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