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Post by halogen on Mar 29, 2020 12:35:57 GMT -5
So, let's say someone made an unbiased list of codebreakers in LS, rather than just some cats being chosen arbitrarily.
I would say:
ThunderClan:
Bramblestar: Trained in the Dark Forest, became deputy before getting an apprentice Squirrelflight: Defied her leader, helped a medicine cat get away with her forbidden kits with a cat from another Clan Alderheart: Helped take Twigbranch to the ShadowClan border Thornclaw: Trained in the Dark Forest Birchfall: Trained in the Dark Forest Berrynose: Became deputy before getting an apprentice Mousewhisker: Trained in the Dark Forest, listened to Sol and tried to attack WindClan without her leader's permission Lionblaze: Trained in the Dark Forest, secretly met with a cat from another Clan, tried to kill other Clan cats in battle (and did kill Russetfur) Rosepetal: Listened to Sol and tried to attack WindClan without her leader's permission Blossomfall: Trained in the Dark Forest, listened to Sol and tried to attack WindClan Ivypool: Trained in the Dark Forest Twigbranch: Switched Clans, went to the ShadowClan border to interact with Violetshine Finleap: Switched Clans Daisy: Tried to go back to being a kitty pet after joining ThunderClan Graystripe: Had a relationship with someone from another Clan, switched Clans Cloudtail: Ate twoleg food, not believing in StarClan technically doesn't count but it wouldn't be considered ideal
ShadowClan (honestly everyone, but I will list them all):
Tigerstar: Trained in the Dark Forest, had a relationship with someone from another Clan, ran away from his Clan Cloverfoot: Joined the Kin Tawnypelt: Switched Clans (arguably twice, she left when Sol took over), tried to leave her Clan and take a kit with her while she was deputy Puddleshine: Joined the Kin Dovewing: Switched Clans, trespassed on WindClan, had a relationship with someone from another Clan Strikestone: Joined the Kin Stonewing: Joined the Kin Scorchfur: Joined the Kin Sparrowtail: Joined the Kin Snowbird: Joined the Kin Yarrowleaf: Joined the Kin Berryheart: Joined the Kin Grassheart: Joined the Kin Blazefire: Ate twoleg food Cinnamontail: Ate twoleg food Slatefur: Joined the Kin Oakfur: Neglected a kit in danger, joined the Kin
SkyClan:
Leafstar: As leader, allowed kitty pets to be daylight warriors and not fully devote themselves to the Clan Frecklewish: Was a daylight warrior Fidgetflake: Ate twoleg food Tree: Didn't join the Clan as a full warrior (only half devoted to warrior/non-loner life) Macgyver: Was a daylight warrior Violetshine: Joined the Kin, switched Clans
WindClan:
Harestar: Trained in the Dark Forest, defied his leader, listened to Sol and tried to attack ThunderClan Crowfeather: Hada two relationships with cats from other Clans, ran away from his Clan Kestrelflight: Defied his leader Breezepelt: Fought for the Dark Forest Heathertail: Secretly met with a cat from another Clan Whiskernose: Trained in the Dark Forest, listened to Sol and tried to attack ThunderClan Gorsetail: Had a relationship with a cat from another Clan
Also, all or a lot fat older cats in WindClan were hunting illegally on ThunderClan territory during the third series.
RiverClan:
Mistystar: Tried to kill another Clan cat (Bluestar) in battle Mothwing: Is a medicine cat and doesn't believe in StarClan Minnowtail: Trained in the Dark Forest Beetlewhisker: Trained in the Dark Forest, is a zombie Icewing: Trained in the Dark Forest
I'm sure there are more I am missing, who tried to kill someone or trespassed on another territory or something, I would love if people can help me get more!
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Post by wheeledwarrior on Mar 29, 2020 13:01:21 GMT -5
The problem with this and the story in general is that you’d be hard-pressed to find someone that hasn’t broken the code in one way or another. It’s almost as if the code was made to be broken, even though there are consequences to breaking it, it’s just easy to break and sometimes breaking it is the better option. So if you wanted to make a full list of codebreakers, you would probably have almost everyone in the entire series on there one way or another. It’s too bad this doesn’t take place when Firestar is alive, Because he broke the code so much that it would be interesting to see how that all played out. Even if he had good intentions most cases. I also wish the writers had not forgotten about tree being named, because his case is an interesting one. I would’ve liked to see that play out as well. He’s in a similar situation to Daisy, but at least Daisy eventually became devoted to her plan and learned some fighting moves.
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Post by rootpawskyclan on Mar 29, 2020 13:17:47 GMT -5
Bramblestar, Squirrelflight, Ivypool, Lionblaze, Jayfeather, Thornclaw, Birchfall, Mousewhisker, Alderheart (bringing twigkit to the shadow clan border to see violetkit is not allowed), Greystripe, Cloudtail, Daisy, Millie, Twigbranch, Finleap, Spotfur, Stemleaf (he disobeyed Bramblefake and is planning an illegal rebellion), Blossomfall and Bristlefrost from ThunderClan Rootpaw, Tree, Leafstar, Hawkwing, Frecklewish, Macygver, Fidgetflake (taking Twoleg food) from SkyClan), Violetshine from SkyClan Shadowsight, Tigerstar, Dovewing, Lightleap, Pouncestep, Puddleshine, Cinnamontail, Blazefire, Cloverfoot, Yarrowleaf, Strikestone, Stonewing, Scorchfur, every other shadowclan cat who joined the Kin, Tawnypelt from ShadowClan Harestar, Crowfeather, Breezepelt, Kestrelflight (refused sc herbs and then defied leader), Heathertail, Gorsefur, those Breezepelt bullies in Crowfeather’s Trial from WindClan Mistystar, Reedwhisker (product of kits of half clan cat) Mothwing, Willowshine, Icewing, Minnowtail, Beetlewhisker, Mosspool (if she is still alive) from RiverClan
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Post by rootpawskyclan on Mar 29, 2020 13:19:22 GMT -5
Tree is better than daisy, he still hunts for his clan albeit differently
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swin
the most inactive
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Post by swin on Mar 29, 2020 13:25:06 GMT -5
I'm looking at the wiki, and apparently in SS there was a arguement/fight at the gathering. Any cat that participated in that would be a codebreaker. (And of course there were lots of other gathering fights in other books, but really most of the cats that participated are probably dead by now)
Any ShadowClan cat who was alive during Eclipse/Long Shadows has broken the rule that borders must be patrolled.
Do kits sneaking out before they're apprenticed count? Because if so, Jayfeather and Berrynose are also codebreakers.
Also since Daisy left ThunderClan for a bit, and took her kits with her, Mousewhisker is also a codebreaker.
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Post by halogen on Mar 29, 2020 13:25:12 GMT -5
Bramblestar, Squirrelflight, Ivypool, Lionblaze, Jayfeather, Thornclaw, Birchfall, Mousewhisker, Alderheart (bringing twigkit to the shadow clan border to see violetkit is not allowed), Greystripe, Cloudtail, Daisy, Millie, Twigbranch, Finleap, Spotfur, Stemleaf (he disobeyed Bramblefake and is planning an illegal rebellion), Blossomfall and Bristlefrost from ThunderClan Rootpaw, Tree, Leafstar, Hawkwing, Frecklewish, Macygver, Fidgetflake (taking Twoleg food) from SkyClan), Violetshine from SkyClan Shadowsight, Tigerstar, Dovewing, Lightleap, Pouncestep, Puddleshine, Cinnamontail, Blazefire, Cloverfoot, Yarrowleaf, Strikestone, Stonewing, Scorchfur, every other shadowclan cat who joined the Kin, Tawnypelt from ShadowClan Harestar, Crowfeather, Breezepelt, Kestrelflight (refused sc herbs and then defied leader), Heathertail, Gorsefur, those Breezepelt bullies in Crowfeather’s Trial from WindClan Mistystar, Reedwhisker (product of kits of half clan cat) Mothwing, Willowshine, Icewing, Minnowtail, Beetlewhisker, Mosspool (if she is still alive) from RiverClan For this I am not counting cats who didn't break it but were half Clan, or got dragged away from the Clan as kits without having any say on it like Mousewhisker and Berrynose - it's a big enough list just counting cats who willingly broke the code. Thanks for the listing of Alderheart and Fidgetflake and explaining why, but how did Spotfur, Bristlefrost, Hawkwing, Willowshine and Breezepelt's bollies break the code? I'm not counting cats who are just related to half clan cats, Again, I'm trying to make a complete list and I would love to hear ones that broke rules like trespassing with the details on why they broke them. I will edit in Alderheart and Fidgetflake to the list, though, thank you!
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Post by rootpawskyclan on Mar 29, 2020 13:52:50 GMT -5
Bramblestar, Squirrelflight, Ivypool, Lionblaze, Jayfeather, Thornclaw, Birchfall, Mousewhisker, Alderheart (bringing twigkit to the shadow clan border to see violetkit is not allowed), Greystripe, Cloudtail, Daisy, Millie, Twigbranch, Finleap, Spotfur, Stemleaf (he disobeyed Bramblefake and is planning an illegal rebellion), Blossomfall and Bristlefrost from ThunderClan Rootpaw, Tree, Leafstar, Hawkwing, Frecklewish, Macygver, Fidgetflake (taking Twoleg food) from SkyClan), Violetshine from SkyClan Shadowsight, Tigerstar, Dovewing, Lightleap, Pouncestep, Puddleshine, Cinnamontail, Blazefire, Cloverfoot, Yarrowleaf, Strikestone, Stonewing, Scorchfur, every other shadowclan cat who joined the Kin, Tawnypelt from ShadowClan Harestar, Crowfeather, Breezepelt, Kestrelflight (refused sc herbs and then defied leader), Heathertail, Gorsefur, those Breezepelt bullies in Crowfeather’s Trial from WindClan Mistystar, Reedwhisker (product of kits of half clan cat) Mothwing, Willowshine, Icewing, Minnowtail, Beetlewhisker, Mosspool (if she is still alive) from RiverClan For this I am not counting cats who didn't break it but were half Clan, or got dragged away from the Clan as kits without having any say on it like Mousewhisker and Berrynose - it's a big enough list just counting cats who willingly broke the code. Thanks for the listing of Alderheart and Fidgetflake and explaining why, but how did Spotfur, Bristlefrost, Hawkwing, Willowshine and Breezepelt's bollies break the code? I'm not counting cats who are just related to half clan cats, Again, I'm trying to make a complete list and I would love to hear ones that broke rules like trespassing with the details on why they broke them. I will edit in Alderheart and Fidgetflake to the list, though, thank you! Some of these things only happen in TST, but many happen before that: Spotfur - Speaking to Stemleaf right after Bramblestar said no. This was a TST codebreak Hawkwing - Interrupted Leafstar a lot and then let violet/twig in SkyClan just because he is the father. Also bringing in rogues like Darktail in the clan Bristlefrost - LS: intruded on SkyClan territory (even if it was to help rootpaw, he is not a kit to be treated like that), TST: She attended secret meeting on SkyClan territory, goes to speak to rootpaw while he is training etc. Willowshine - goes against Mistystars orders (when she closed the borders etc.) Breezepelt bullies- spoke against Breezepelt in the middle of a gathering after onestar told everyone to shut up
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 29, 2020 14:06:27 GMT -5
Tree is better than daisy, he still hunts for his clan albeit differently ...Daisy raises all the kits in the clan with devotion and defends the nursery during battle if necessary. I hope we aren't insulting permaqueens. Either way, every cat has broken the code in some way or another. Bramblefake is punishing cats for just being born at this point (Jay and Lion), so logically, Mistystar is breaking the code there.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 29, 2020 14:36:55 GMT -5
For this I am not counting cats who didn't break it but were half Clan, or got dragged away from the Clan as kits without having any say on it like Mousewhisker and Berrynose - it's a big enough list just counting cats who willingly broke the code. Thanks for the listing of Alderheart and Fidgetflake and explaining why, but how did Spotfur, Bristlefrost, Hawkwing, Willowshine and Breezepelt's bollies break the code? I'm not counting cats who are just related to half clan cats, Again, I'm trying to make a complete list and I would love to hear ones that broke rules like trespassing with the details on why they broke them. I will edit in Alderheart and Fidgetflake to the list, though, thank you! Some of these things only happen in TST, but many happen before that: Spotfur - Speaking to Stemleaf right after Bramblestar said no. This was a TST codebreak Hawkwing - Interrupted Leafstar a lot and then let violet/twig in SkyClan just because he is the father. Also bringing in rogues like Darktail in the clan Bristlefrost - LS: intruded on SkyClan territory (even if it was to help rootpaw, he is not a kit to be treated like that), TST: She attended secret meeting on SkyClan territory, goes to speak to rootpaw while he is training etc. Willowshine - goes against Mistystars orders (when she closed the borders etc.) Breezepelt bullies- spoke against Breezepelt in the middle of a gathering after onestar told everyone to shut up Spotfur also trespassed on WindClan territory while hunting.
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Post by ~Ƈαммι-`ღ´- on Mar 29, 2020 15:17:55 GMT -5
Beetlewhisker: Trained in the Dark Forest, is a zombie Got a good laugh from this
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Post by Hollyfall on Mar 29, 2020 15:22:35 GMT -5
Tigerstar says "Every cat has broken the code at some time, whether they meant to or not. What is important is a warrior’s heart. If a warrior is loyal and honorable, who cares if they made a mistake in the past?". With your example of the ShadowClan cats who joined the Kin, they pretty obviously regretted it (Berryheart, Sparrowtail, Cloverfoot, and Slatefur didn't even return to ShadowClan out of shame) and worked hard to earn back the trust of ShadowClan. Graystripe left ThunderClan, but when he joined again, he did his best to ensure that cats knew he was loyal to his birth Clan and he realized he made a mistake. If the impostor was set on listing every cat who broke the code but either atoned or broke it unintentionally (eg. the dark forest trainees, apprentices who accidentally cross Clan borders), I think a lot of cats would call him out on it.
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Post by platinum blond death on Mar 29, 2020 15:23:32 GMT -5
At this point there are probably only a few cats that haven't broken the code that are alive. Judging from this list it's very easy to break the code, especially if you are mislead.
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Post by platinum blond death on Mar 29, 2020 15:24:18 GMT -5
Tigerstar says "Every cat has broken the code at some time, whether they meant to or not. What is important is a warrior’s heart. If a warrior is loyal and honorable, who cares if they made a mistake in the past?". With your example of the ShadowClan cats who joined the Kin, they pretty obviously regretted it (Berryheart, Sparrowtail, Cloverfoot, and Slatefur didn't even return to ShadowClan out of shame) and worked hard to earn back the trust of ShadowClan. Graystripe left ThunderClan, but when he joined again, he did his best to ensure that cats knew he was loyal to his birth Clan and he realized he made a mistake. If the impostor was set on listing every cat who broke the code, he might as well include himself since he's "Bramblestar". He literally broke the code himself by ordering that he eat before the elders and queens. Obvious hypocrisy.
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Post by Hollyfall on Mar 29, 2020 15:44:41 GMT -5
Tigerstar says "Every cat has broken the code at some time, whether they meant to or not. What is important is a warrior’s heart. If a warrior is loyal and honorable, who cares if they made a mistake in the past?". With your example of the ShadowClan cats who joined the Kin, they pretty obviously regretted it (Berryheart, Sparrowtail, Cloverfoot, and Slatefur didn't even return to ShadowClan out of shame) and worked hard to earn back the trust of ShadowClan. Graystripe left ThunderClan, but when he joined again, he did his best to ensure that cats knew he was loyal to his birth Clan and he realized he made a mistake. If the impostor was set on listing every cat who broke the code, he might as well include himself since he's "Bramblestar". He literally broke the code himself by ordering that he eat before the elders and queens. Obvious hypocrisy. Words are hard lmao, I'll have to rephrase that. But, indeed an obvious hypocrite. Doesn't let Squirrelflight atone like Lion, Jay, or Twig, and only exiles her when she outs him. If he's discriminating against Lionblaze and Jayfeather for being half-clan, by his logic then Squirrelflight should be on his list for being half-kittypet, but that wasn't his reasoning for her.
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Post by rootpawskyclan on Mar 29, 2020 15:45:41 GMT -5
Tigerstar says "Every cat has broken the code at some time, whether they meant to or not. What is important is a warrior’s heart. If a warrior is loyal and honorable, who cares if they made a mistake in the past?". With your example of the ShadowClan cats who joined the Kin, they pretty obviously regretted it (Berryheart, Sparrowtail, Cloverfoot, and Slatefur didn't even return to ShadowClan out of shame) and worked hard to earn back the trust of ShadowClan. Graystripe left ThunderClan, but when he joined again, he did his best to ensure that cats knew he was loyal to his birth Clan and he realized he made a mistake. If the impostor was set on listing every cat who broke the code, he might as well include himself since he's "Bramblestar". He literally broke the code himself by ordering that he eat before the elders and queens. Obvious hypocrisy. No he did not, he is the leader and the leaders word is the warrior code.
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Post by Hollyfall on Mar 29, 2020 15:50:04 GMT -5
He literally broke the code himself by ordering that he eat before the elders and queens. Obvious hypocrisy. No he did not, he is the leader and the leaders word is the warrior code. Oh, he was following the code? Thank god, I thought he was just being selfish by making everyone know he gets first pick from the fresh-kill pile and abusing the leader's word is law rule.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 29, 2020 16:08:21 GMT -5
He literally broke the code himself by ordering that he eat before the elders and queens. Obvious hypocrisy. Words are hard lmao, I'll have to rephrase that. But, indeed an obvious hypocrite. Doesn't let Squirrelflight atone like Lion, Jay, or Twig, and only exiles her when she outs him. If he's discriminating against Lionblaze and Jayfeather for being half-clan, by his logic then Squirrelflight should be on his list for being half-kittypet, but that wasn't his reasoning for her. Exactly. Who he's calling out is totally arbitrary. If Twig is a codebreaker, then so Violetshine. If Jay and Lion are? Mistystar is. Either way, most of the codebreakers are loyal warriors who are good cats or else they wouldn't still be in the clans. Bramblefake is grasping at straws. I can't believe more cats aren't getting angry.
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Post by Smokyyy on Mar 29, 2020 17:02:07 GMT -5
Every cat
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Post by platinum blond death on Mar 29, 2020 17:11:49 GMT -5
He literally broke the code himself by ordering that he eat before the elders and queens. Obvious hypocrisy. No he did not, he is the leader and the leaders word is the warrior code. Well, he's twisting the code for his selfish ways. His word goes against the code itself, and that places the cats in a difficult situation: do they follow their leader's word or the code? If they follow their leader according to the code, then they're actually breaking the code. A leader should not manipulate the code for their own gain, and their word should not conflict with the code. Aside from that, he also appointed Berrynose as deputy before Berrynose got an apprentice, so there's that.
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Post by ᏞᎪᎠᎽ Ꮎf fᎪᏁᎠᎾms ミ☆ on Mar 29, 2020 17:34:23 GMT -5
no wonder hollyleaf went nuts...imagine thinking ur entire existence is illegal bc of a list of convoluted laws that no one really enforces anyways. yikes
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Post by halogen on Mar 29, 2020 17:41:31 GMT -5
Tree is better than daisy, he still hunts for his clan albeit differently ...Daisy raises all the kits in the clan with devotion and defends the nursery during battle if necessary. I hope we aren't insulting permaqueens. Either way, every cat has broken the code in some way or another. Bramblefake is punishing cats for just being born at this point (Jay and Lion), so logically, Mistystar is breaking the code there. Yeah, almost everyone has, the point of this is not that Bramblefake is right (he's definitely not) but that with everyone complaining about the choices being arbitrary and biased I thought it would be interesting to keep track of who broke which codes and when. You could also make a list of broken codes by code broken (counting dead cats here): 1. Defend your Clan, even with your life. You may have friendships with cats from other Clans, but your loyalty must remain to your Clan, as one day you may meet them in battle. * Most obviously, everyone in a forbidden relationship broke this, that's: Mapleshade, Appledusk, Squirrelwhisker, Eaglestorm, Fallowtail, Reedwhisker, Oakheart, Bluestar, Graystripe (who explicitly failed to fight Silverstream in battle because of this, the others aren't breaking the letter of the code but are basically interpreted as breaking it), Silverstream, Crowfeather, Leafpool (these two ran away from their Clan too so extra points for this), arguably Feathertail (she was only in the relationship on a StarClan-sanctioned journey but did plan to continue it, had she not died she would have counted), Heathertail, Lionblaze, Dovewing, Tigerstar II (these two also ran away form their Clan so they get extra points). In terms of cats whose cross-Clan friendships/family messed with their loyalties, Onestar gets marked down there (explicitly helping/sympathizing with ThunderClan while they were in battle with WindClan due to his friendship with Firestar) as does Twigbranch (refusing to fight Violetshine) and Bramblestar and Hawkfrost for their relationship that certainly caused disloyalty. Mudclaw also gets marked down for being ok with appointing a cat from another Clan deputy. Now for the "remain loyal to your Clan with your life" part, lots more cats get marked as codebreakers here - Jaggedtooth left his Clan when the going got tough, Leopardstar signed her Clan over to be taken over and didn't do anything about it because of the risk to herself, Lionheart ran away from a ShadowClan patrol as an apprentice rather than be willing to defend his Clan to the death. And of course everyone who outright leaves their Clan, otherwise, without it being some journey approved by the leaders or StarClan (honestly the fifteenth code is somewhat redundant this way) - Ravenpaw, Tallstar, Crookedstar, Pinestar, Leafpool, Crowfeather, Snookthorn, Cherrytail, Cloudmist, Daisy, Hollyleaf, all willingly left their Clan, Needletail on her journey sort of too since she wasn't officially supposed to be on the journey. And Graystripe, Tawnypelt, Twigbranch, Violetshine, Dovewing, and Yellowfang all switched Clans (Stormfur, Tigerstar I, and Darkstripe too, but only after being exiled). Tawnypelt's kits and Daisy's kits could arguably count for coming with them, though they might get a pass due to their youth, and how in Tawnypelt's case it was done in protest against an act of codebreaking. Littlecloud and Whitethroat would arguably count for seeking help from ThunderClan during their plague. And Hawkwing facilitated this with regard to Twigbranch and Violetshine. And then, of course, there's every Dark Forest trainee and every ShadowClan cat that ever joined the Kin (that's all of ShadowClan at the time except Rowanstar, Tawnypelt and Tigerstar II. You could also argue Rowanstar broke it by wanting to merge ShadowClan and SkyClan, as did the cats who supported his decision. 2. Do not hunt or trespass on another Clan's territory. Where do we start... all or a lot of WindClan was breaking this in the third series, Alderheart, Twigbranch, Needletail and Violetshine were breaking this with their meetings, Hollyleaf broke it when she went to RiverClan in Dark River, several of the forbidden relationships broke it by hanging out in another Clan's territory (Lionblaze and Tigerheart definitely met Heathertail aand Dovewing respectively on the other's territory) Rootpaw and Bristlefrost are breaking this all the time, Dovewing broke it to check on Sedgewhisker, and ThunderClan and RiverClan would both contend the whole of the other broke it with regards to Sunningrocks. And Littlecloud and Whitethroat broke it by hanging around ThunderClan territory to get treatment. And then there's ShadowClan under Cedarstar and Brokenstar straight-up trespassing on WindClan to invade it, and ThunderClan under Firestar invading territory that he had given to ShadowClan, and ShadowClan invading ThunderClan's camp in ITW, and ThunderClan invading WindClan's camp in BP. There also must be more cases than I have listed of cats just being cowardly and not defending their Clan to the death in that sense. 3. Elders, queens, and kits must be fed before apprentices and warriors. Unless they have permission, apprentices may not eat until they have hunted to feed the elders. If any warrior or apprentice is sick or injured, they may eat while the elders, queens, and kits are eating. Longtail and Darkstripe pretty famously broke this one, Firestar and Graystripe gave food to other Clans first a lot (and Firestar gave prey to Yellowfang rather than the elders) - there are lots of others but I can't remember at the moment - would love help! 4. Prey is killed only to be eaten. Give thanks to StarClan for its life. I can't remember anyone actually breaking this one. There must be some examples... 5. A kit must be at least six moons old to become an apprentice. Brokenstar obviously broke this one, and Brokenstar's biggest supporters should get marked down for this one was well (Clawface and Brokenstar explicitly kidnapped kits to get new kit warriors). Bluestar and Pinestar both made apprentices early at some point too. 6. Newly appointed warriors will keep a silent vigil for one night after receiving their warrior name. Has this ever been broken? I can't remember any instances. 7. A cat cannot be made deputy without having mentored at least one apprentice. Bramblestar and now Berrynose became deputy without apprentices, and Firestar and Bramblefake get marked down for appointing them. Borderline cases for Bluestar appointing Firestar and Firestar appointing Graystripe, too, where they had not fully/properly trained an apprentice. And then there's Blackstar, who outright banned the mentorship system, and everyone in ShadowClan who supported him. 8. The deputy will become Clan leader when the leader dies, retires, or is exiled. Nightstar broke this by exiling both the deputy and the leader, Tallstar arguably broke it by just switching Mudclaw out of the deputy position, and Tigerstar II broke it by running away while deputy so he couldn't succeed as leader. 9. After the death, retirement, promotion (to a leader status), or exile of the deputy, the new deputy must be chosen before moonhigh. Bluestar broke this, Firestar and Rowanstar arguably broke this big time though in both their cases the deputy wasn't dead, retired, promoted or exiled, they correctly assumed they would return. 10. A Gathering of all four Clans is held at the full moon during a truce that lasts for the night. There shall be no fighting among Clans at this time. I have no idea how to even keep track of all the times this has been broken and who was involved, but people have already listed Breezepelt's bullies in Crowfeather's Trial and one fight in Shattered Sky. I also remember off the top of my head one in Crookedstar's Promise/Bluestar's Prophecy where everyone was fighting over ThunderClan invading WindClan and which Clan Willowbreeze and Graypool should end up in. Also Blackstar outright banned his Clan from going to gatherings so he and everyone who supported him go here. 11. Boundaries must be checked and marked daily. Challenge all trespassing cats. I can't remember cases of this being broken off the top of my head but there must be several. Again, I would love help with this! 12. No warrior can neglect a kit in pain or danger, even if the kit is from a different Clan. Well, most obviously, Russetfur, Cedarheart and Oakfur broke this by watching Berrykit suffer, but I imagine cats who outright tried to kill kits (Darkstripe) or cats who put kits at risk by their actions (Goosefeather, Bluestar) would go there. 13. The word of the Clan leader is the warrior code. I assume outright rebelling against the leaders counts as this, so all of the ShadowClan cats who rebelled against/disobeyed Rowanstar go here, and arguably Nightstar, Cinderfur, ShadowClan Ashfur and the others who rebelled against Brokenstar, and now the rebellion against Bramblefake, at least in the case of the cats who didn't know he was fake, and as mentioned below, Spotfur for not listening to Bramblefake at one point. And then there's Firestar and Graystripe, who defy their leader a lot, and Harestar and Kestrelflight for giving herbs against their leader's orders, and Willowshine for not being isolationist like Mistystar wanted. And Mousefur made her own illegal Clan meeting, she broke this one too. Also Squirrelflight for defying Bramblestar, and Sharpclaw and Hawkwing for defying Leafstar. 14. An honorable warrior does not need to kill other cats to win their battles, unless they are outside the warrior code or if it is necessary for self-defense. Counting only killing Clan cats (other cats are allowed) Blackstar and Clawface both killed in battle while under Brokenstar, Hawkheart killed in a battle, Russetfur killed in battle, Leopardstar nearly killed Firestar, Breezepelt tried to kill Jayfeather and Poppyfrost, Tigerstar, Brokenstar and Hollyleaf all outright killed their own Clanmates and Darkstripe tried to do the same, Hawkfrost tried to kill Bramblestar and Firestar, Mistystar and Stonefur nearly killed Bluestar, Lionblaze tried to kill cats in battle several times (and killed Russetfur by accident) etc. People have also pointed out that Firestar bit Russetfur's throat in Sunrise in a way that could have been deadly, that's an arguable one though. And of course, Mapleshade killed several cats, Ashfur tried to kill several cats, and Thistleclaw must have fought to kill at some point. Graystripe also killed another Clan cat by accident. Ivypool broke this by trying to kill Flametail (the others were outside the code). 15. A warrior rejects the soft life of a kittypet. Any warriors who became a kittypet obviously breaks this (I listed those above), and also Cloudtail, Needletail, Blazefire, Cinnamontail and Fidgetflake for eating twoleg food, and all of the daylight warriors. 16. Each Clan has the right to be proud and independent, but in times of trouble they must forget their boundaries and fight side by side to protect the four. Each Clan must help the others so that no Clan will fall. Has this even been around long enough for anyone to break it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2020 18:00:36 GMT -5
halogenDoesn't Onestar count ask breaking 16 by not giving ShadowClan herbs they desperately needed?
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 29, 2020 18:35:11 GMT -5
Switching clans in of itself isn't a code-breaking thing tbh, especially when that's something the cat themselves chooses (Otherwise I'm pretty sure they'd get run out, yet Greystripe I believe has Mistyfoot come in and let's him in with he kits without a fuss). And like the very top reply stated, you're gonna have to put literally every major character into the codebreaker spot considering how ABSOLUTELY EASY they break it now and before. Firestar for instance broke so many rules even with good intentions it ain't funny.
But switching clans isn't one of them. And frankly a cat shouldn't be tied down to their birth clan in the name of "loyalty" if they're not happy within it.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 29, 2020 19:40:51 GMT -5
Switching clans in of itself isn't a code-breaking thing tbh, especially when that's something the cat themselves chooses (Otherwise I'm pretty sure they'd get run out, yet Greystripe I believe has Mistyfoot come in and let's him in with he kits without a fuss). And like the very top reply stated, you're gonna have to put literally every major character into the codebreaker spot considering how ABSOLUTELY EASY they break it now and before. Firestar for instance broke so many rules even with good intentions it ain't funny. But switching clans isn't one of them. And frankly a cat shouldn't be tied down to their birth clan in the name of "loyalty" if they're not happy within it. Unfortunately, Bramblefake is saying it does go against the code
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Post by halogen on Mar 29, 2020 20:42:51 GMT -5
Switching clans in of itself isn't a code-breaking thing tbh, especially when that's something the cat themselves chooses (Otherwise I'm pretty sure they'd get run out, yet Greystripe I believe has Mistyfoot come in and let's him in with he kits without a fuss). And like the very top reply stated, you're gonna have to put literally every major character into the codebreaker spot considering how ABSOLUTELY EASY they break it now and before. Firestar for instance broke so many rules even with good intentions it ain't funny. But switching clans isn't one of them. And frankly a cat shouldn't be tied down to their birth clan in the name of "loyalty" if they're not happy within it. I'm not saying switching Clans is bad or wrong - I am not siding with Bramblefake's ideas at all, I just think it would be an interesting exercise to find who broke the code and when without condemning any of them, a lot of the code breaks I listed I think are morally right. And with switching Clans, while I agree you shouldn't be tied down to the birth clan, the code does stay "defend your Clan to the death" and if just falling in love with someone from another Clan is considered breaking it than switching Clans certainly would be. Yes, it's not fair to be stuck in a Clan just because you were born there and expected to be loyal, but that is what the code heavily implies so if you are doing an exercise trying to determine who broke it than that should be included.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Mar 30, 2020 0:25:10 GMT -5
Okay, I've got some pretty complicated views on all this, so I wrote you an essay. Seriously, I think it's the longest post I've ever written on this site. Basically, when I read your list, I had some issues with it (mainly cats being included for non-codebreaking reasons), and decided to write out my reasoning. Three hours later and I realized I had fewer issues than I thought (but still some), and I had written out a lot of logical flows and my opinions on how the Warrior Code should be interpreted and enforced. So here are those opinions... in a totally arbitrary and nonsensical order. Here's what each segment focuses on (a TL;DR or summary, if you will) 1: inter-Clan relationships aren't forbidden, disloyalty is. 2: Having the intent to break the code is not the same as actually breaking it. 3: The DF trainees remained loyal and so are not Codebreakers. 4: If you break Code 13 by following another Code, you are not a Codebreaker. 5: See #1. Also, covering up someone else's Codebreaking is not Codebreaking. 6: If someone isn't officially part of a Clan, they can't break the Code. 7: Atheism isn't Codebreaking: 7.5: Medicine Cats don't follow the Warrior Code.8: See second part of #5. Also being an accomplice to Codebreaking is not Codebreaking. 9. Naming the deputy is the leader's responsibility, and so the leader is the Codebreaker for those Codes, not the deputy. 1. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part I. (Heathertail) I don't think Lionblaze and Heathertail broke the code by seeing each other, as we never saw any evidence of them betraying their own Clans for the other's sake (though Heather did trespass on ThunderClan territory, so there's that). You could argue Lion was neglecting his training, but that doesn't put his Clan in danger any more than Jay's perfectly legal obsession with his stick. Inter-Clan relationships are not inherently against the code, in fact the code says you can have freindships outside your Clan. Personally, I see LionHeather as a friendship, but other people see it as a romance. That means there's a blur between what's considered friendship and what's considered romance, and the code knows this, so it doesn't outlaw relationships. It outlaws disloyalty. Now, inter-Clan relationships are still a very bad idea, because as we've seen with every other couple, it usually ends up in disloyalty. But for these two, neither was willing to put their own Clan at risk for the sake of the other, and Lion even cut it off when he felt like it was getting too out of hand. That's following the code if you ask me. 2. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part II. (Russetfur) Continuing with Lionblaze, he never actually killed anyone other than Russetfur, and even that is questionable, as his claws were sheathed and everyone is sort of baffled that Russetfur died from that very minor attack-- in fact, from the way the scene is written, you could argue that Firestar dealt the killing blow and Lionblaze just kinda threw her off him before she actually died. But that's all speculation- even if Lion did kill Russet, it falls under being necessary to defend the Clan, and as being outside the code because Russet killed Firestar too. As for trying to kill multiple cats in battle, I don't think someone should be counted as a codebreaker for trying and failing to break a code-- you'd have to be a mind reader in order to enforce that in any way, and Jayfeather has better things to do. Plus, saying Lion tried to kill cats is an unclear statement. What entails trying? Lion is horrified by the thoughts and dreams he has, and when he nearly kills Crowfeather in Eclipse, he starts having panic attacks because he didn't want to do it. You can't govern a cat's intent, because you can never truly know it. Therefore, we should only count cats who actually did break the code, not ones who "tried" to or nearly did. Having the intent to break the code is not the same as breaking it. 3. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part III. (Ivypool and a whole lot of others) None of the Dark Forest trainees should be considered Codebreakers except for Breezepelt and Redwillow (and he's dead, so moot point). Assuming you're citing the loyalty code, Code 1, none of these cats put their Clans in danger knowingly, and were therefore not disloyal. None of them chose to go to the DF, they were all brainwashed. A couple broke out of that brainwashing (like Ivypool), most remained loyal to their Clans when they realized that's what was actually happening, and only two that we know of actually betrayed their Clans. The vast majority of these cats thought they were helping their Clans by learning defensive moves. By the time they learned that's not what they were doing, they couldn't actually leave. Beetlewhisker tried and look where that got him. Now, even if you're operating under duress, you're still guilty of crimes you commit, but I don't think these guys are guilty of disloyalty or anything else. At the very, very least, Beetlewhisker is not a codebreaker. Ivypool isn't either, at least not by Code 1. (Code 14 we might have some issues as I THINK she might have killed Antpelt? But I don't remember). 4. Alderheart may or may not have done something wrong: Is taking Twigbranch to the border illegal? The only evidence I can see for this is Code 13, which would make Alder and Needle guilty of disobeying their leaders. (Though Alder is a medicine cat, I'll get to that later. See segment #7.5). Even then, there seems to be a general idea that when a leader gives an order to break the Code, one Code has to trump the other. Whether the winner should be Code 13 or the other Code is left pretty much up to opinion (though most of the fandom agrees Code 13 is stupid). In this case, we could very easily argue that Alder was following Code 12 by not neglecting a kit in pain. Emotional pain, yes, but still. Alderheart is in the very unfortunate situation of having to choose between Code 12 and Code 13 (except not really because he's a medicine cat). I believe that Code 12 should win, and in fact Code 13 should be under every other Code. Basically, if following your leader's word would force you to break the Warrior Code, you shouldn't be considered a Codebreaker for disobeying that order. This is a more emotional argument than all my other ones; it's purely the way I think things should be. 5. Squirrelflight and Tigerstar II only did one thing wrong: So I'm going to start with Tigerstar II and I want to make one thing very clear. I have not read Tigerheart's Shadow and so may be about to make an entirely incorrect and invalid point. But based off what I have read, I can totally understand why Tigerstar was not named a Codebreaker. He never betrayed ShadowClan. He was in a inter-Clan relationship, yes, but as already discussed, that's not inherently against the code, as long as you remain loyal to your Clan. Tigerheart was constantly betraying Dovewing for ShadowClan's sake, not the other way around. The only time he broke the Code was when he left ShadowClan to go after her. So he only did one thing wrong.
Squirrelflight's an entirely different case, but similar in the sense that she has multiple accusations lobbed at her when only one of them is actually a crime. Squirrelflight is guilty of breaking Code 13 (a common one to break, it seems) by disobeying her leader on multiple occasions. That's it. That's the only thing she did wrong. Lying is not against the Warrior Code. Covering up someone else's Codebreaking is not against the Warrior Code. Like with Alderheart, she was actually following Code 12 by giving these otherwise abandoned kits a safe and loving home. 6. Daisy wasn't capable of doing wrong: Okay, so like with the last case, it's been a very long time since I've read TNP, so I can't say for sure, but... I seem to remember that Daisy was just sheltering with ThunderClan until her kits were old enough to travel. Therefore, she's not beholden to the Warrior Code-- she's just a guest. Also, since she never became a Warrior, I don't know how the rules would apply to her anyway. I would assume that after she decided to stay with ThunderClan permanently, she should have to take a Warrior's oath, even if she doesn't hunt or fight. But her leaving after the badger attack (or whenever it was, I honestly can't remember) wouldn't count as Codebreaking unless she had already taken the oath.
She may have done all that, I could be entirely wrong on that paragraph. It's been a long time.
As for Cinnamontail and Blazefire, I have no idea when this happened, but I do know that these two were born outside of ShC and were scavengers. If that's what you're referring to, then it's the same point. A cat can't break the Warrior Code until they've promised to follow the Code. 7. Warriors of the past say atheism isn't wrong, 7.5. Kestrelflight did nothing wrong: (These should really be separate segments, but I already screwed up the formatting, so deal) So Cloudtail and Mothwing. You already said Cloudtail's atheism doesn't count, but it wasn't ideal. The problem is, it's irrelevant. The Code makes no statements about a cat's belief in StarClan, so whether Cloud believes in them or not is completely irrelevant, ideal or not ideal. Him being an atheist doesn't make his potential crimes any worse or better. Not only does the Warrior Code not mention belief in StarClan, but it was presented as a possible Code and denied. Some leader in the past said "hey, maybe believing in StarClan should be a rule", and all the other leaders were like "no, that's a bad idea" (presumably because, as I said in segment 2, you can't enforce it without a mind reader). As for Mothwing... this is really complicated. I can't find any official source for the Medicine Cat Code (by official I mean a book or the actual website, not an author tweet or random roleplay site). All we know from the books is that they can't have a mate and by extension kits, they can't do harm to another cat unless in self-defense, and they have no particular loyalty to any Clan and must protect all cats equally. Which really makes every single MC a Codebreaker, because they would all prioritize their own Clanmates over others. But I actually would consider Mothwing a Codebreaker because becoming a MC does entail a bit of supernatural voodoo, primarily in picking them in the first place. Since Mothwing doesn't believe in supernatural voodoo, she can't perform her job properly. Though we don't know for sure whether belief in StarClan is required by the MC code or not. If it is, she's a Codebreaker. If it's not, she's not. Side tangent, completely unrelated: I really hate when people throw away a perfectly valid plot point as "just another excuse to force someone to become a medicine cat". Like Yellowfang and Jayfeather. Yes, they were forced into the MC role, but they were forced into it by StarClan. StarClan picks the next medicine cat. They can be happy with that, like Willowshine, or hate it, like Yellowfang and Jayfeather. We know this is the case because Leafpool expresses concern over Rowanclaw just picking Puddlekit when StarClan hasn't shown any interest in him. Now, considering StarClan is a bunch of incompetents who can't find their own tails with both paws and a mirror, you can decide whether or not the cats picked by StarClan should be obligated to become MCs. I think they should because supernatural voodoo is a very interesting plotline to me. Some people don't. But please don't write off a perfectly valid plot element like Yellowfang's physical empathy as "just another excuse". Anyway, while I would consider Moth a Codebreaker, I would not consider Kestrelflight a Codebreaker. As I said above, MCs do have an obligation to protect all cats equally, so he was following his Code by sharing herbs with ShadowClan. He was breaking Code 13 of the Warrior Code, so an interesting question is raised: Should Medicine Cats have to follow the Warrior Code? Personally, I say no. A lot of emphasis is placed on MCs standing separate from Clan rivalry and loyalty, so why should they be beholden to the Warrior Code? Additionally, they should either have to follow all of it, or none of it (unless it overlaps with the medicine code). So you can't say MCs have to follow Codes 1, 13, 14, and 16, but not have to follow Codes 2 and 6. That would be ridiculously complicated. Instead, MCs have their own separate code and culture. This means Kestrelflight and Alderheart are not Codebreakers for helping ShadowClan and Twigkit, respectively. 8. Leafstar did nothing wrong: So daylight warriors are obviously breaking Code 15 (about kittypets). That's fine. But Leafstar isn't. My reasoning is the same as with Squirrelflight. Assisting someone else in breaking the code or covering another's codebreaking is not the same as breaking the code yourself. Additionally, Leafstar is a Clan Leader, meaning she falls under Code 13's Word of the Leader clause. I don't think she can break Code 15 unless she herself went and got kittypet food, which she's never done. 9. Bluestar and Firestar did wrong, not Fireheart and Brambleclaw: All of the deputy-related Codes (7, 8, and 9) should fall on the leader, not the cat they name. For example, how can Fireheart possibly be guilty of breaking Code 9 (the one about the moonhigh time limit) if he didn't know he would be the next deputy? Surely that falls on Bluestar, the cat who knew she had to announce the decision before moonhigh and then didn't do that.
By the same logic, Brambleclaw is not a Codebreaker by becoming deputy before he had an apprentice. Firestar is because he named a cat who hadn't had an apprentice as deputy. Sorry for the absolute text wall, I just had an AWFUL lot of opinions. Seriously, this took me like four hours to think of and write. 2,400 words, yikes. Please no one quote this post in full.
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Post by halogen on Mar 30, 2020 8:50:23 GMT -5
Thats all fair, but I'm trying to say that even for cats that clearly did break the code, I am not saying they are wrong. Everyone's treating me like I am Bramblefake and want to punish these cats, when really I was just curious what would happen if you tried to tally all times cats have broke the code without judging them.
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Post by Skypaw13 on Mar 30, 2020 12:28:44 GMT -5
I’m not saying you want to punish anyone, my point with that whole mess of text was that your unbiased list of code breakers included cats that haven’t actually broken the code. I wasn’t making a point on how they should or shouldn’t be punished, simply saying they haven’t even broken rules in the first place.
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Post by rootpawskyclan on Mar 30, 2020 12:46:53 GMT -5
halogen Doesn't Onestar count ask breaking 16 by not giving ShadowClan herbs they desperately needed? Also, he mated with a kittypet. He is a double codebreaker
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Post by halogen on Mar 30, 2020 13:00:38 GMT -5
I’m not saying you want to punish anyone, my point with that whole mess of text was that your unbiased list of code breakers included cats that haven’t actually broken the code. I wasn’t making a point on how they should or shouldn’t be punished, simply saying they haven’t even broken rules in the first place. Yeah. I'm sorry, this was a horribly thought-out list honestly. I still do disagree with you on parts of the Lionblaze one - even if being with Heathetail in and of itself wasn't breaking it he was still trespassing onto WindClan territory to meet her, and as for the almost killing cats part it was pretty obvious what he wast trying to do - Crowfeather and Mosspelt got horribly beaten up, Mosspelt only survived because Firestar told him to stop. If a cat was about to eat a mouse meant for the elders and then their leader caught them just in time told them to stop, wouldn't they still be punished for trying to eat it for themselves. Same thing for if a cat tries to kill in battle and their leader catches them in time and tells them to stop.
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