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Post by rootpawskyclan on Mar 30, 2020 13:21:12 GMT -5
Okay, I've got some pretty complicated views on all this, so I wrote you an essay. Seriously, I think it's the longest post I've ever written on this site. Basically, when I read your list, I had some issues with it (mainly cats being included for non-codebreaking reasons), and decided to write out my reasoning. Three hours later and I realized I had fewer issues than I thought (but still some), and I had written out a lot of logical flows and my opinions on how the Warrior Code should be interpreted and enforced. So here are those opinions... in a totally arbitrary and nonsensical order. Here's what each segment focuses on (a TL;DR or summary, if you will) 1: inter-Clan relationships aren't forbidden, disloyalty is. 2: Having the intent to break the code is not the same as actually breaking it. 3: The DF trainees remained loyal and so are not Codebreakers. 4: If you break Code 13 by following another Code, you are not a Codebreaker. 5: See #1. Also, covering up someone else's Codebreaking is not Codebreaking. 6: If someone isn't officially part of a Clan, they can't break the Code. 7: Atheism isn't Codebreaking: 7.5: Medicine Cats don't follow the Warrior Code.8: See second part of #5. Also being an accomplice to Codebreaking is not Codebreaking. 9. Naming the deputy is the leader's responsibility, and so the leader is the Codebreaker for those Codes, not the deputy. 1. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part I. (Heathertail) I don't think Lionblaze and Heathertail broke the code by seeing each other, as we never saw any evidence of them betraying their own Clans for the other's sake (though Heather did trespass on ThunderClan territory, so there's that). You could argue Lion was neglecting his training, but that doesn't put his Clan in danger any more than Jay's perfectly legal obsession with his stick. Inter-Clan relationships are not inherently against the code, in fact the code says you can have freindships outside your Clan. Personally, I see LionHeather as a friendship, but other people see it as a romance. That means there's a blur between what's considered friendship and what's considered romance, and the code knows this, so it doesn't outlaw relationships. It outlaws disloyalty. Now, inter-Clan relationships are still a very bad idea, because as we've seen with every other couple, it usually ends up in disloyalty. But for these two, neither was willing to put their own Clan at risk for the sake of the other, and Lion even cut it off when he felt like it was getting too out of hand. That's following the code if you ask me. 2. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part II. (Russetfur) Continuing with Lionblaze, he never actually killed anyone other than Russetfur, and even that is questionable, as his claws were sheathed and everyone is sort of baffled that Russetfur died from that very minor attack-- in fact, from the way the scene is written, you could argue that Firestar dealt the killing blow and Lionblaze just kinda threw her off him before she actually died. But that's all speculation- even if Lion did kill Russet, it falls under being necessary to defend the Clan, and as being outside the code because Russet killed Firestar too. As for trying to kill multiple cats in battle, I don't think someone should be counted as a codebreaker for trying and failing to break a code-- you'd have to be a mind reader in order to enforce that in any way, and Jayfeather has better things to do. Plus, saying Lion tried to kill cats is an unclear statement. What entails trying? Lion is horrified by the thoughts and dreams he has, and when he nearly kills Crowfeather in Eclipse, he starts having panic attacks because he didn't want to do it. You can't govern a cat's intent, because you can never truly know it. Therefore, we should only count cats who actually did break the code, not ones who "tried" to or nearly did. Having the intent to break the code is not the same as breaking it. 3. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part III. (Ivypool and a whole lot of others) None of the Dark Forest trainees should be considered Codebreakers except for Breezepelt and Redwillow (and he's dead, so moot point). Assuming you're citing the loyalty code, Code 1, none of these cats put their Clans in danger knowingly, and were therefore not disloyal. None of them chose to go to the DF, they were all brainwashed. A couple broke out of that brainwashing (like Ivypool), most remained loyal to their Clans when they realized that's what was actually happening, and only two that we know of actually betrayed their Clans. The vast majority of these cats thought they were helping their Clans by learning defensive moves. By the time they learned that's not what they were doing, they couldn't actually leave. Beetlewhisker tried and look where that got him. Now, even if you're operating under duress, you're still guilty of crimes you commit, but I don't think these guys are guilty of disloyalty or anything else. At the very, very least, Beetlewhisker is not a codebreaker. Ivypool isn't either, at least not by Code 1. (Code 14 we might have some issues as I THINK she might have killed Antpelt? But I don't remember). 4. Alderheart may or may not have done something wrong: Is taking Twigbranch to the border illegal? The only evidence I can see for this is Code 13, which would make Alder and Needle guilty of disobeying their leaders. (Though Alder is a medicine cat, I'll get to that later. See segment #7.5). Even then, there seems to be a general idea that when a leader gives an order to break the Code, one Code has to trump the other. Whether the winner should be Code 13 or the other Code is left pretty much up to opinion (though most of the fandom agrees Code 13 is stupid). In this case, we could very easily argue that Alder was following Code 12 by not neglecting a kit in pain. Emotional pain, yes, but still. Alderheart is in the very unfortunate situation of having to choose between Code 12 and Code 13 (except not really because he's a medicine cat). I believe that Code 12 should win, and in fact Code 13 should be under every other Code. Basically, if following your leader's word would force you to break the Warrior Code, you shouldn't be considered a Codebreaker for disobeying that order. This is a more emotional argument than all my other ones; it's purely the way I think things should be. 5. Squirrelflight and Tigerstar II only did one thing wrong: So I'm going to start with Tigerstar II and I want to make one thing very clear. I have not read Tigerheart's Shadow and so may be about to make an entirely incorrect and invalid point. But based off what I have read, I can totally understand why Tigerstar was not named a Codebreaker. He never betrayed ShadowClan. He was in a inter-Clan relationship, yes, but as already discussed, that's not inherently against the code, as long as you remain loyal to your Clan. Tigerheart was constantly betraying Dovewing for ShadowClan's sake, not the other way around. The only time he broke the Code was when he left ShadowClan to go after her. So he only did one thing wrong.
Squirrelflight's an entirely different case, but similar in the sense that she has multiple accusations lobbed at her when only one of them is actually a crime. Squirrelflight is guilty of breaking Code 13 (a common one to break, it seems) by disobeying her leader on multiple occasions. That's it. That's the only thing she did wrong. Lying is not against the Warrior Code. Covering up someone else's Codebreaking is not against the Warrior Code. Like with Alderheart, she was actually following Code 12 by giving these otherwise abandoned kits a safe and loving home. 6. Daisy wasn't capable of doing wrong: Okay, so like with the last case, it's been a very long time since I've read TNP, so I can't say for sure, but... I seem to remember that Daisy was just sheltering with ThunderClan until her kits were old enough to travel. Therefore, she's not beholden to the Warrior Code-- she's just a guest. Also, since she never became a Warrior, I don't know how the rules would apply to her anyway. I would assume that after she decided to stay with ThunderClan permanently, she should have to take a Warrior's oath, even if she doesn't hunt or fight. But her leaving after the badger attack (or whenever it was, I honestly can't remember) wouldn't count as Codebreaking unless she had already taken the oath.
She may have done all that, I could be entirely wrong on that paragraph. It's been a long time.
As for Cinnamontail and Blazefire, I have no idea when this happened, but I do know that these two were born outside of ShC and were scavengers. If that's what you're referring to, then it's the same point. A cat can't break the Warrior Code until they've promised to follow the Code. 7. Warriors of the past say atheism isn't wrong, 7.5. Kestrelflight did nothing wrong: (These should really be separate segments, but I already screwed up the formatting, so deal) So Cloudtail and Mothwing. You already said Cloudtail's atheism doesn't count, but it wasn't ideal. The problem is, it's irrelevant. The Code makes no statements about a cat's belief in StarClan, so whether Cloud believes in them or not is completely irrelevant, ideal or not ideal. Him being an atheist doesn't make his potential crimes any worse or better. Not only does the Warrior Code not mention belief in StarClan, but it was presented as a possible Code and denied. Some leader in the past said "hey, maybe believing in StarClan should be a rule", and all the other leaders were like "no, that's a bad idea" (presumably because, as I said in segment 2, you can't enforce it without a mind reader). As for Mothwing... this is really complicated. I can't find any official source for the Medicine Cat Code (by official I mean a book or the actual website, not an author tweet or random roleplay site). All we know from the books is that they can't have a mate and by extension kits, they can't do harm to another cat unless in self-defense, and they have no particular loyalty to any Clan and must protect all cats equally. Which really makes every single MC a Codebreaker, because they would all prioritize their own Clanmates over others. But I actually would consider Mothwing a Codebreaker because becoming a MC does entail a bit of supernatural voodoo, primarily in picking them in the first place. Since Mothwing doesn't believe in supernatural voodoo, she can't perform her job properly. Though we don't know for sure whether belief in StarClan is required by the MC code or not. If it is, she's a Codebreaker. If it's not, she's not. Side tangent, completely unrelated: I really hate when people throw away a perfectly valid plot point as "just another excuse to force someone to become a medicine cat". Like Yellowfang and Jayfeather. Yes, they were forced into the MC role, but they were forced into it by StarClan. StarClan picks the next medicine cat. They can be happy with that, like Willowshine, or hate it, like Yellowfang and Jayfeather. We know this is the case because Leafpool expresses concern over Rowanclaw just picking Puddlekit when StarClan hasn't shown any interest in him. Now, considering StarClan is a bunch of incompetents who can't find their own tails with both paws and a mirror, you can decide whether or not the cats picked by StarClan should be obligated to become MCs. I think they should because supernatural voodoo is a very interesting plotline to me. Some people don't. But please don't write off a perfectly valid plot element like Yellowfang's physical empathy as "just another excuse". Anyway, while I would consider Moth a Codebreaker, I would not consider Kestrelflight a Codebreaker. As I said above, MCs do have an obligation to protect all cats equally, so he was following his Code by sharing herbs with ShadowClan. He was breaking Code 13 of the Warrior Code, so an interesting question is raised: Should Medicine Cats have to follow the Warrior Code? Personally, I say no. A lot of emphasis is placed on MCs standing separate from Clan rivalry and loyalty, so why should they be beholden to the Warrior Code? Additionally, they should either have to follow all of it, or none of it (unless it overlaps with the medicine code). So you can't say MCs have to follow Codes 1, 13, 14, and 16, but not have to follow Codes 2 and 6. That would be ridiculously complicated. Instead, MCs have their own separate code and culture. This means Kestrelflight and Alderheart are not Codebreakers for helping ShadowClan and Twigkit, respectively. 8. Leafstar did nothing wrong: So daylight warriors are obviously breaking Code 15 (about kittypets). That's fine. But Leafstar isn't. My reasoning is the same as with Squirrelflight. Assisting someone else in breaking the code or covering another's codebreaking is not the same as breaking the code yourself. Additionally, Leafstar is a Clan Leader, meaning she falls under Code 13's Word of the Leader clause. I don't think she can break Code 15 unless she herself went and got kittypet food, which she's never done. 9. Bluestar and Firestar did wrong, not Fireheart and Brambleclaw: All of the deputy-related Codes (7, 8, and 9) should fall on the leader, not the cat they name. For example, how can Fireheart possibly be guilty of breaking Code 9 (the one about the moonhigh time limit) if he didn't know he would be the next deputy? Surely that falls on Bluestar, the cat who knew she had to announce the decision before moonhigh and then didn't do that.
By the same logic, Brambleclaw is not a Codebreaker by becoming deputy before he had an apprentice. Firestar is because he named a cat who hadn't had an apprentice as deputy. Sorry for the absolute text wall, I just had an AWFUL lot of opinions. Seriously, this took me like four hours to think of and write. 2,400 words, yikes. Please no one quote this post in full. Unfortunately not how it actually works in the clans 1. Blazefire and Cinnamontail are illegal since they ate twoleg food in lost stars and did not refuse the path of a kittypet fully 2. Brambleclaw tried to kill Firestar (before stopping after seeing the errors of his ways), this is illegal and being disloyal to your leader 3. Medicine cat code forbids atheism, so Mothwing is illegal 4. Rule 13 is above the warrior code actually: “The word of the Clan leader is the warrior code.”. It says (from the wording) that whatever the leader says is the new warrior code for that time and it supersedes everything else, including everything you think and do as well as what you know is right (basically 1984). Hence Alderheart, Twigbranch, Squirrelflight, Violetshine. Needletail, Berrynose, Sleekwhisker, Mistystar, Stonefur, Bristlefrost, Stemleaf, Spotfur, Shadowsight, Rootpaw, Breezepelt bullies, Finleap, every kit who has ever misbehaved (pretty much everyone) is illegal 5. The warrior code does not care whether whether you did it knowingly. All DF trainees are hence illegal 6. Kestrelflight disobeyed Onestar. Even he must bend to rule 13 (med cat code is just an add on to the warrior code) and follow his orders over any other cat. Hence, Kestrelflight and Onestar (rule 16) are all illegal 7. Rejection can easily be argued as disloyal, so Squirrelflight is double illegal. Ashfur was right to try and expose her 8. The medicine cat code states the following: 1. A medicine cat may not fall in love or take a mate. 2. A medicine cat may not have kits. 3. A medicine cat may only retire when their apprentice is ready to take their place. 4. A medicine cat shares dreams with only StarClan. 5. A medicine cat may only discuss dreams, prophecies, etc. with their leader or other medicine cats at the monthly meeting; dreams of an otherwise prophetic nature should not be disclosed to any outside parties, or any other cats in the Clan. Nowhere in the code does it say to protect all cats equally. The med cat code is also only an addon to the warrior code (other than being able to enter another cats territory WITH GOOD REASON), so they must all follow rule 13 9. All leaders have broken the code by going to the Moonpool (see #10). The warrior code does not allow this. The cats who have been letting this happen are also illegal for disloyalty 10. Whatever is not allowed by the code but is traditionally accepted is still illegal. Whatever the leader says is only valid if someone alive in the clans remembers it and shares it, otherwise it is invalid (Tallstar’s Case with Onestar). Whatever is not in the warrior code in any form is acceptable (even if heavily discouraged) unless the leader says no. No modern TC leader specifically said no to half-clan cats anywhere, so BristlefrostXRootpaw and GreystripeXSilverstream are fully legal relationships since Bluestar never said NO (see #11) 11. Lastly, loyalty to the clan is vague and the leader gets to decides every single case. Hence Greystripe was not being disloyal until Bluestar says he is.
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 30, 2020 13:24:11 GMT -5
Okay, I've got some pretty complicated views on all this, so I wrote you an essay. Seriously, I think it's the longest post I've ever written on this site. Basically, when I read your list, I had some issues with it (mainly cats being included for non-codebreaking reasons), and decided to write out my reasoning. Three hours later and I realized I had fewer issues than I thought (but still some), and I had written out a lot of logical flows and my opinions on how the Warrior Code should be interpreted and enforced. So here are those opinions... in a totally arbitrary and nonsensical order. Here's what each segment focuses on (a TL;DR or summary, if you will) 1: inter-Clan relationships aren't forbidden, disloyalty is. 2: Having the intent to break the code is not the same as actually breaking it. 3: The DF trainees remained loyal and so are not Codebreakers. 4: If you break Code 13 by following another Code, you are not a Codebreaker. 5: See #1. Also, covering up someone else's Codebreaking is not Codebreaking. 6: If someone isn't officially part of a Clan, they can't break the Code. 7: Atheism isn't Codebreaking: 7.5: Medicine Cats don't follow the Warrior Code.8: See second part of #5. Also being an accomplice to Codebreaking is not Codebreaking. 9. Naming the deputy is the leader's responsibility, and so the leader is the Codebreaker for those Codes, not the deputy. 1. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part I. (Heathertail) I don't think Lionblaze and Heathertail broke the code by seeing each other, as we never saw any evidence of them betraying their own Clans for the other's sake (though Heather did trespass on ThunderClan territory, so there's that). You could argue Lion was neglecting his training, but that doesn't put his Clan in danger any more than Jay's perfectly legal obsession with his stick. Inter-Clan relationships are not inherently against the code, in fact the code says you can have freindships outside your Clan. Personally, I see LionHeather as a friendship, but other people see it as a romance. That means there's a blur between what's considered friendship and what's considered romance, and the code knows this, so it doesn't outlaw relationships. It outlaws disloyalty. Now, inter-Clan relationships are still a very bad idea, because as we've seen with every other couple, it usually ends up in disloyalty. But for these two, neither was willing to put their own Clan at risk for the sake of the other, and Lion even cut it off when he felt like it was getting too out of hand. That's following the code if you ask me. 2. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part II. (Russetfur) Continuing with Lionblaze, he never actually killed anyone other than Russetfur, and even that is questionable, as his claws were sheathed and everyone is sort of baffled that Russetfur died from that very minor attack-- in fact, from the way the scene is written, you could argue that Firestar dealt the killing blow and Lionblaze just kinda threw her off him before she actually died. But that's all speculation- even if Lion did kill Russet, it falls under being necessary to defend the Clan, and as being outside the code because Russet killed Firestar too. As for trying to kill multiple cats in battle, I don't think someone should be counted as a codebreaker for trying and failing to break a code-- you'd have to be a mind reader in order to enforce that in any way, and Jayfeather has better things to do. Plus, saying Lion tried to kill cats is an unclear statement. What entails trying? Lion is horrified by the thoughts and dreams he has, and when he nearly kills Crowfeather in Eclipse, he starts having panic attacks because he didn't want to do it. You can't govern a cat's intent, because you can never truly know it. Therefore, we should only count cats who actually did break the code, not ones who "tried" to or nearly did. Having the intent to break the code is not the same as breaking it. 3. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part III. (Ivypool and a whole lot of others) None of the Dark Forest trainees should be considered Codebreakers except for Breezepelt and Redwillow (and he's dead, so moot point). Assuming you're citing the loyalty code, Code 1, none of these cats put their Clans in danger knowingly, and were therefore not disloyal. None of them chose to go to the DF, they were all brainwashed. A couple broke out of that brainwashing (like Ivypool), most remained loyal to their Clans when they realized that's what was actually happening, and only two that we know of actually betrayed their Clans. The vast majority of these cats thought they were helping their Clans by learning defensive moves. By the time they learned that's not what they were doing, they couldn't actually leave. Beetlewhisker tried and look where that got him. Now, even if you're operating under duress, you're still guilty of crimes you commit, but I don't think these guys are guilty of disloyalty or anything else. At the very, very least, Beetlewhisker is not a codebreaker. Ivypool isn't either, at least not by Code 1. (Code 14 we might have some issues as I THINK she might have killed Antpelt? But I don't remember). 4. Alderheart may or may not have done something wrong: Is taking Twigbranch to the border illegal? The only evidence I can see for this is Code 13, which would make Alder and Needle guilty of disobeying their leaders. (Though Alder is a medicine cat, I'll get to that later. See segment #7.5). Even then, there seems to be a general idea that when a leader gives an order to break the Code, one Code has to trump the other. Whether the winner should be Code 13 or the other Code is left pretty much up to opinion (though most of the fandom agrees Code 13 is stupid). In this case, we could very easily argue that Alder was following Code 12 by not neglecting a kit in pain. Emotional pain, yes, but still. Alderheart is in the very unfortunate situation of having to choose between Code 12 and Code 13 (except not really because he's a medicine cat). I believe that Code 12 should win, and in fact Code 13 should be under every other Code. Basically, if following your leader's word would force you to break the Warrior Code, you shouldn't be considered a Codebreaker for disobeying that order. This is a more emotional argument than all my other ones; it's purely the way I think things should be. 5. Squirrelflight and Tigerstar II only did one thing wrong: So I'm going to start with Tigerstar II and I want to make one thing very clear. I have not read Tigerheart's Shadow and so may be about to make an entirely incorrect and invalid point. But based off what I have read, I can totally understand why Tigerstar was not named a Codebreaker. He never betrayed ShadowClan. He was in a inter-Clan relationship, yes, but as already discussed, that's not inherently against the code, as long as you remain loyal to your Clan. Tigerheart was constantly betraying Dovewing for ShadowClan's sake, not the other way around. The only time he broke the Code was when he left ShadowClan to go after her. So he only did one thing wrong.
Squirrelflight's an entirely different case, but similar in the sense that she has multiple accusations lobbed at her when only one of them is actually a crime. Squirrelflight is guilty of breaking Code 13 (a common one to break, it seems) by disobeying her leader on multiple occasions. That's it. That's the only thing she did wrong. Lying is not against the Warrior Code. Covering up someone else's Codebreaking is not against the Warrior Code. Like with Alderheart, she was actually following Code 12 by giving these otherwise abandoned kits a safe and loving home. 6. Daisy wasn't capable of doing wrong: Okay, so like with the last case, it's been a very long time since I've read TNP, so I can't say for sure, but... I seem to remember that Daisy was just sheltering with ThunderClan until her kits were old enough to travel. Therefore, she's not beholden to the Warrior Code-- she's just a guest. Also, since she never became a Warrior, I don't know how the rules would apply to her anyway. I would assume that after she decided to stay with ThunderClan permanently, she should have to take a Warrior's oath, even if she doesn't hunt or fight. But her leaving after the badger attack (or whenever it was, I honestly can't remember) wouldn't count as Codebreaking unless she had already taken the oath.
She may have done all that, I could be entirely wrong on that paragraph. It's been a long time.
As for Cinnamontail and Blazefire, I have no idea when this happened, but I do know that these two were born outside of ShC and were scavengers. If that's what you're referring to, then it's the same point. A cat can't break the Warrior Code until they've promised to follow the Code. 7. Warriors of the past say atheism isn't wrong, 7.5. Kestrelflight did nothing wrong: (These should really be separate segments, but I already screwed up the formatting, so deal) So Cloudtail and Mothwing. You already said Cloudtail's atheism doesn't count, but it wasn't ideal. The problem is, it's irrelevant. The Code makes no statements about a cat's belief in StarClan, so whether Cloud believes in them or not is completely irrelevant, ideal or not ideal. Him being an atheist doesn't make his potential crimes any worse or better. Not only does the Warrior Code not mention belief in StarClan, but it was presented as a possible Code and denied. Some leader in the past said "hey, maybe believing in StarClan should be a rule", and all the other leaders were like "no, that's a bad idea" (presumably because, as I said in segment 2, you can't enforce it without a mind reader). As for Mothwing... this is really complicated. I can't find any official source for the Medicine Cat Code (by official I mean a book or the actual website, not an author tweet or random roleplay site). All we know from the books is that they can't have a mate and by extension kits, they can't do harm to another cat unless in self-defense, and they have no particular loyalty to any Clan and must protect all cats equally. Which really makes every single MC a Codebreaker, because they would all prioritize their own Clanmates over others. But I actually would consider Mothwing a Codebreaker because becoming a MC does entail a bit of supernatural voodoo, primarily in picking them in the first place. Since Mothwing doesn't believe in supernatural voodoo, she can't perform her job properly. Though we don't know for sure whether belief in StarClan is required by the MC code or not. If it is, she's a Codebreaker. If it's not, she's not. Side tangent, completely unrelated: I really hate when people throw away a perfectly valid plot point as "just another excuse to force someone to become a medicine cat". Like Yellowfang and Jayfeather. Yes, they were forced into the MC role, but they were forced into it by StarClan. StarClan picks the next medicine cat. They can be happy with that, like Willowshine, or hate it, like Yellowfang and Jayfeather. We know this is the case because Leafpool expresses concern over Rowanclaw just picking Puddlekit when StarClan hasn't shown any interest in him. Now, considering StarClan is a bunch of incompetents who can't find their own tails with both paws and a mirror, you can decide whether or not the cats picked by StarClan should be obligated to become MCs. I think they should because supernatural voodoo is a very interesting plotline to me. Some people don't. But please don't write off a perfectly valid plot element like Yellowfang's physical empathy as "just another excuse". Anyway, while I would consider Moth a Codebreaker, I would not consider Kestrelflight a Codebreaker. As I said above, MCs do have an obligation to protect all cats equally, so he was following his Code by sharing herbs with ShadowClan. He was breaking Code 13 of the Warrior Code, so an interesting question is raised: Should Medicine Cats have to follow the Warrior Code? Personally, I say no. A lot of emphasis is placed on MCs standing separate from Clan rivalry and loyalty, so why should they be beholden to the Warrior Code? Additionally, they should either have to follow all of it, or none of it (unless it overlaps with the medicine code). So you can't say MCs have to follow Codes 1, 13, 14, and 16, but not have to follow Codes 2 and 6. That would be ridiculously complicated. Instead, MCs have their own separate code and culture. This means Kestrelflight and Alderheart are not Codebreakers for helping ShadowClan and Twigkit, respectively. 8. Leafstar did nothing wrong: So daylight warriors are obviously breaking Code 15 (about kittypets). That's fine. But Leafstar isn't. My reasoning is the same as with Squirrelflight. Assisting someone else in breaking the code or covering another's codebreaking is not the same as breaking the code yourself. Additionally, Leafstar is a Clan Leader, meaning she falls under Code 13's Word of the Leader clause. I don't think she can break Code 15 unless she herself went and got kittypet food, which she's never done. 9. Bluestar and Firestar did wrong, not Fireheart and Brambleclaw: All of the deputy-related Codes (7, 8, and 9) should fall on the leader, not the cat they name. For example, how can Fireheart possibly be guilty of breaking Code 9 (the one about the moonhigh time limit) if he didn't know he would be the next deputy? Surely that falls on Bluestar, the cat who knew she had to announce the decision before moonhigh and then didn't do that.
By the same logic, Brambleclaw is not a Codebreaker by becoming deputy before he had an apprentice. Firestar is because he named a cat who hadn't had an apprentice as deputy. Sorry for the absolute text wall, I just had an AWFUL lot of opinions. Seriously, this took me like four hours to think of and write. 2,400 words, yikes. Please no one quote this post in full. 3. Medicine cat code forbids atheism, so Mothwing is illegal Where? We have no official Medicine Cat Code to go off of. Also forbidding a cat from being a role that they like just because of their beliefs is very eck to me. I get many folks have a problem with Mothwing as a Meddie because of it, but it's stupid. Also Mothwing believes in Starclan now, she just doesn't think they're all that like the clans do (and is right about it)
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Post by rootpawskyclan on Mar 30, 2020 13:32:06 GMT -5
6. A medicine cat will never let personal feelings in the way of his or her duties. 7. Medicine cats are outside of Clan and Clan rivalries. 8. A medicine cat may be trained as a warrior before becoming a medicine cat, but a medicine cat cannot become a normal warrior. 9. Medicine cats are outside clan rivalries but they still must learn basic fighting moves. 10. Medicine cats cannot reject any injured cats 11. A medicine cat must be able to interpret signs from Starclan. 12. A medicine cat must do everything in their power to save a cat. 13. A medicine cat must give it's life to save a cat. 12. A med cat must be able to interpret signs from SC, Mothwing can’t 13. Leafpool became a normal warrior, StarClan is illegal for punishing her against the med cat code 14. Rejecting injured cats is not the same thing as protecting all clans 15. Being out of clan rivalry does not make rule 13 moot as long as it does not affect the clans or their rivalry 16. Med cats are the same as glorified loners (Tree, Yew) is confirmed due to rule 7 of med cat code. Med cats are outside the Clan (very hypocritical but also makes Alderheart still illegal since he did not die to get the herbs for Bramblestar
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Post by halogen on Mar 30, 2020 15:17:56 GMT -5
Okay, I've got some pretty complicated views on all this, so I wrote you an essay. Seriously, I think it's the longest post I've ever written on this site. Basically, when I read your list, I had some issues with it (mainly cats being included for non-codebreaking reasons), and decided to write out my reasoning. Three hours later and I realized I had fewer issues than I thought (but still some), and I had written out a lot of logical flows and my opinions on how the Warrior Code should be interpreted and enforced. So here are those opinions... in a totally arbitrary and nonsensical order. Here's what each segment focuses on (a TL;DR or summary, if you will) 1: inter-Clan relationships aren't forbidden, disloyalty is. 2: Having the intent to break the code is not the same as actually breaking it. 3: The DF trainees remained loyal and so are not Codebreakers. 4: If you break Code 13 by following another Code, you are not a Codebreaker. 5: See #1. Also, covering up someone else's Codebreaking is not Codebreaking. 6: If someone isn't officially part of a Clan, they can't break the Code. 7: Atheism isn't Codebreaking: 7.5: Medicine Cats don't follow the Warrior Code.8: See second part of #5. Also being an accomplice to Codebreaking is not Codebreaking. 9. Naming the deputy is the leader's responsibility, and so the leader is the Codebreaker for those Codes, not the deputy. 1. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part I. (Heathertail) I don't think Lionblaze and Heathertail broke the code by seeing each other, as we never saw any evidence of them betraying their own Clans for the other's sake (though Heather did trespass on ThunderClan territory, so there's that). You could argue Lion was neglecting his training, but that doesn't put his Clan in danger any more than Jay's perfectly legal obsession with his stick. Inter-Clan relationships are not inherently against the code, in fact the code says you can have freindships outside your Clan. Personally, I see LionHeather as a friendship, but other people see it as a romance. That means there's a blur between what's considered friendship and what's considered romance, and the code knows this, so it doesn't outlaw relationships. It outlaws disloyalty. Now, inter-Clan relationships are still a very bad idea, because as we've seen with every other couple, it usually ends up in disloyalty. But for these two, neither was willing to put their own Clan at risk for the sake of the other, and Lion even cut it off when he felt like it was getting too out of hand. That's following the code if you ask me. 2. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part II. (Russetfur) Continuing with Lionblaze, he never actually killed anyone other than Russetfur, and even that is questionable, as his claws were sheathed and everyone is sort of baffled that Russetfur died from that very minor attack-- in fact, from the way the scene is written, you could argue that Firestar dealt the killing blow and Lionblaze just kinda threw her off him before she actually died. But that's all speculation- even if Lion did kill Russet, it falls under being necessary to defend the Clan, and as being outside the code because Russet killed Firestar too. As for trying to kill multiple cats in battle, I don't think someone should be counted as a codebreaker for trying and failing to break a code-- you'd have to be a mind reader in order to enforce that in any way, and Jayfeather has better things to do. Plus, saying Lion tried to kill cats is an unclear statement. What entails trying? Lion is horrified by the thoughts and dreams he has, and when he nearly kills Crowfeather in Eclipse, he starts having panic attacks because he didn't want to do it. You can't govern a cat's intent, because you can never truly know it. Therefore, we should only count cats who actually did break the code, not ones who "tried" to or nearly did. Having the intent to break the code is not the same as breaking it. 3. Lionblaze did nothing wrong, Part III. (Ivypool and a whole lot of others) None of the Dark Forest trainees should be considered Codebreakers except for Breezepelt and Redwillow (and he's dead, so moot point). Assuming you're citing the loyalty code, Code 1, none of these cats put their Clans in danger knowingly, and were therefore not disloyal. None of them chose to go to the DF, they were all brainwashed. A couple broke out of that brainwashing (like Ivypool), most remained loyal to their Clans when they realized that's what was actually happening, and only two that we know of actually betrayed their Clans. The vast majority of these cats thought they were helping their Clans by learning defensive moves. By the time they learned that's not what they were doing, they couldn't actually leave. Beetlewhisker tried and look where that got him. Now, even if you're operating under duress, you're still guilty of crimes you commit, but I don't think these guys are guilty of disloyalty or anything else. At the very, very least, Beetlewhisker is not a codebreaker. Ivypool isn't either, at least not by Code 1. (Code 14 we might have some issues as I THINK she might have killed Antpelt? But I don't remember). 4. Alderheart may or may not have done something wrong: Is taking Twigbranch to the border illegal? The only evidence I can see for this is Code 13, which would make Alder and Needle guilty of disobeying their leaders. (Though Alder is a medicine cat, I'll get to that later. See segment #7.5). Even then, there seems to be a general idea that when a leader gives an order to break the Code, one Code has to trump the other. Whether the winner should be Code 13 or the other Code is left pretty much up to opinion (though most of the fandom agrees Code 13 is stupid). In this case, we could very easily argue that Alder was following Code 12 by not neglecting a kit in pain. Emotional pain, yes, but still. Alderheart is in the very unfortunate situation of having to choose between Code 12 and Code 13 (except not really because he's a medicine cat). I believe that Code 12 should win, and in fact Code 13 should be under every other Code. Basically, if following your leader's word would force you to break the Warrior Code, you shouldn't be considered a Codebreaker for disobeying that order. This is a more emotional argument than all my other ones; it's purely the way I think things should be. 5. Squirrelflight and Tigerstar II only did one thing wrong: So I'm going to start with Tigerstar II and I want to make one thing very clear. I have not read Tigerheart's Shadow and so may be about to make an entirely incorrect and invalid point. But based off what I have read, I can totally understand why Tigerstar was not named a Codebreaker. He never betrayed ShadowClan. He was in a inter-Clan relationship, yes, but as already discussed, that's not inherently against the code, as long as you remain loyal to your Clan. Tigerheart was constantly betraying Dovewing for ShadowClan's sake, not the other way around. The only time he broke the Code was when he left ShadowClan to go after her. So he only did one thing wrong.
Squirrelflight's an entirely different case, but similar in the sense that she has multiple accusations lobbed at her when only one of them is actually a crime. Squirrelflight is guilty of breaking Code 13 (a common one to break, it seems) by disobeying her leader on multiple occasions. That's it. That's the only thing she did wrong. Lying is not against the Warrior Code. Covering up someone else's Codebreaking is not against the Warrior Code. Like with Alderheart, she was actually following Code 12 by giving these otherwise abandoned kits a safe and loving home. 6. Daisy wasn't capable of doing wrong: Okay, so like with the last case, it's been a very long time since I've read TNP, so I can't say for sure, but... I seem to remember that Daisy was just sheltering with ThunderClan until her kits were old enough to travel. Therefore, she's not beholden to the Warrior Code-- she's just a guest. Also, since she never became a Warrior, I don't know how the rules would apply to her anyway. I would assume that after she decided to stay with ThunderClan permanently, she should have to take a Warrior's oath, even if she doesn't hunt or fight. But her leaving after the badger attack (or whenever it was, I honestly can't remember) wouldn't count as Codebreaking unless she had already taken the oath.
She may have done all that, I could be entirely wrong on that paragraph. It's been a long time.
As for Cinnamontail and Blazefire, I have no idea when this happened, but I do know that these two were born outside of ShC and were scavengers. If that's what you're referring to, then it's the same point. A cat can't break the Warrior Code until they've promised to follow the Code. 7. Warriors of the past say atheism isn't wrong, 7.5. Kestrelflight did nothing wrong: (These should really be separate segments, but I already screwed up the formatting, so deal) So Cloudtail and Mothwing. You already said Cloudtail's atheism doesn't count, but it wasn't ideal. The problem is, it's irrelevant. The Code makes no statements about a cat's belief in StarClan, so whether Cloud believes in them or not is completely irrelevant, ideal or not ideal. Him being an atheist doesn't make his potential crimes any worse or better. Not only does the Warrior Code not mention belief in StarClan, but it was presented as a possible Code and denied. Some leader in the past said "hey, maybe believing in StarClan should be a rule", and all the other leaders were like "no, that's a bad idea" (presumably because, as I said in segment 2, you can't enforce it without a mind reader). As for Mothwing... this is really complicated. I can't find any official source for the Medicine Cat Code (by official I mean a book or the actual website, not an author tweet or random roleplay site). All we know from the books is that they can't have a mate and by extension kits, they can't do harm to another cat unless in self-defense, and they have no particular loyalty to any Clan and must protect all cats equally. Which really makes every single MC a Codebreaker, because they would all prioritize their own Clanmates over others. But I actually would consider Mothwing a Codebreaker because becoming a MC does entail a bit of supernatural voodoo, primarily in picking them in the first place. Since Mothwing doesn't believe in supernatural voodoo, she can't perform her job properly. Though we don't know for sure whether belief in StarClan is required by the MC code or not. If it is, she's a Codebreaker. If it's not, she's not. Side tangent, completely unrelated: I really hate when people throw away a perfectly valid plot point as "just another excuse to force someone to become a medicine cat". Like Yellowfang and Jayfeather. Yes, they were forced into the MC role, but they were forced into it by StarClan. StarClan picks the next medicine cat. They can be happy with that, like Willowshine, or hate it, like Yellowfang and Jayfeather. We know this is the case because Leafpool expresses concern over Rowanclaw just picking Puddlekit when StarClan hasn't shown any interest in him. Now, considering StarClan is a bunch of incompetents who can't find their own tails with both paws and a mirror, you can decide whether or not the cats picked by StarClan should be obligated to become MCs. I think they should because supernatural voodoo is a very interesting plotline to me. Some people don't. But please don't write off a perfectly valid plot element like Yellowfang's physical empathy as "just another excuse". Anyway, while I would consider Moth a Codebreaker, I would not consider Kestrelflight a Codebreaker. As I said above, MCs do have an obligation to protect all cats equally, so he was following his Code by sharing herbs with ShadowClan. He was breaking Code 13 of the Warrior Code, so an interesting question is raised: Should Medicine Cats have to follow the Warrior Code? Personally, I say no. A lot of emphasis is placed on MCs standing separate from Clan rivalry and loyalty, so why should they be beholden to the Warrior Code? Additionally, they should either have to follow all of it, or none of it (unless it overlaps with the medicine code). So you can't say MCs have to follow Codes 1, 13, 14, and 16, but not have to follow Codes 2 and 6. That would be ridiculously complicated. Instead, MCs have their own separate code and culture. This means Kestrelflight and Alderheart are not Codebreakers for helping ShadowClan and Twigkit, respectively. 8. Leafstar did nothing wrong: So daylight warriors are obviously breaking Code 15 (about kittypets). That's fine. But Leafstar isn't. My reasoning is the same as with Squirrelflight. Assisting someone else in breaking the code or covering another's codebreaking is not the same as breaking the code yourself. Additionally, Leafstar is a Clan Leader, meaning she falls under Code 13's Word of the Leader clause. I don't think she can break Code 15 unless she herself went and got kittypet food, which she's never done. 9. Bluestar and Firestar did wrong, not Fireheart and Brambleclaw: All of the deputy-related Codes (7, 8, and 9) should fall on the leader, not the cat they name. For example, how can Fireheart possibly be guilty of breaking Code 9 (the one about the moonhigh time limit) if he didn't know he would be the next deputy? Surely that falls on Bluestar, the cat who knew she had to announce the decision before moonhigh and then didn't do that.
By the same logic, Brambleclaw is not a Codebreaker by becoming deputy before he had an apprentice. Firestar is because he named a cat who hadn't had an apprentice as deputy. Sorry for the absolute text wall, I just had an AWFUL lot of opinions. Seriously, this took me like four hours to think of and write. 2,400 words, yikes. Please no one quote this post in full. Unfortunately not how it actually works in the clans 1. Blazefire and Cinnamontail are illegal since they ate twoleg food in lost stars and did not refuse the path of a kittypet fully 2. Brambleclaw tried to kill Firestar (before stopping after seeing the errors of his ways), this is illegal and being disloyal to your leader 3. Medicine cat code forbids atheism, so Mothwing is illegal 4. Rule 13 is above the warrior code actually: “The word of the Clan leader is the warrior code.”. It says (from the wording) that whatever the leader says is the new warrior code for that time and it supersedes everything else, including everything you think and do as well as what you know is right (basically 1984). Hence Alderheart, Twigbranch, Squirrelflight, Violetshine. Needletail, Berrynose, Sleekwhisker, Mistystar, Stonefur, Bristlefrost, Stemleaf, Spotfur, Shadowsight, Rootpaw, Breezepelt bullies, Finleap, every kit who has ever misbehaved (pretty much everyone) is illegal 5. The warrior code does not care whether whether you did it knowingly. All DF trainees are hence illegal 6. Kestrelflight disobeyed Onestar. Even he must bend to rule 13 (med cat code is just an add on to the warrior code) and follow his orders over any other cat. Hence, Kestrelflight and Onestar (rule 16) are all illegal 7. Rejection can easily be argued as disloyal, so Squirrelflight is double illegal. Ashfur was right to try and expose her 8. The medicine cat code states the following: 1. A medicine cat may not fall in love or take a mate. 2. A medicine cat may not have kits. 3. A medicine cat may only retire when their apprentice is ready to take their place. 4. A medicine cat shares dreams with only StarClan. 5. A medicine cat may only discuss dreams, prophecies, etc. with their leader or other medicine cats at the monthly meeting; dreams of an otherwise prophetic nature should not be disclosed to any outside parties, or any other cats in the Clan. Nowhere in the code does it say to protect all cats equally. The med cat code is also only an addon to the warrior code (other than being able to enter another cats territory WITH GOOD REASON), so they must all follow rule 13 9. All leaders have broken the code by going to the Moonpool (see #10). The warrior code does not allow this. The cats who have been letting this happen are also illegal for disloyalty 10. Whatever is not allowed by the code but is traditionally accepted is still illegal. Whatever the leader says is only valid if someone alive in the clans remembers it and shares it, otherwise it is invalid (Tallstar’s Case with Onestar). Whatever is not in the warrior code in any form is acceptable (even if heavily discouraged) unless the leader says no. No modern TC leader specifically said no to half-clan cats anywhere, so BristlefrostXRootpaw and GreystripeXSilverstream are fully legal relationships since Bluestar never said NO (see #11) 11. Lastly, loyalty to the clan is vague and the leader gets to decides every single case. Hence Greystripe was not being disloyal until Bluestar says he is. I'm not sure if rule 13 is above the rest of the code, I feel it's ambiguous what happens if a leader contradicts the code and this arc will probably discuss that. Also, where did it say that something is heavily discouraged just because the code doesn't mention it. Is sleeping heavily discouraged, by that logic? The code doesn't say anything about sleeping! Leaders gong to the moon pool isn't illegal. You are making the leader code sound much less ambiguous than it is in the books. Would Bramblestar count, though, given he stopped trying to kill out of remorse rather than cats like Lionblaze who intended to kill but failed or got stopped by another cat? And where do you get the idea that Squirrelflight rejecting Ashfur is somehow breaking the code?
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Post by stormfall on Mar 30, 2020 17:38:20 GMT -5
The only thing that a list and a tread like this goes to show is that the code needs to be changed. If it is this easy to "break the code" then the code needs to be altered, technically all of these cats should not be going to Starclan, but all of them deserve to. If it is this easy to break the law and this many people disagree with the law, then it should be changed. We can only hope that the code has drastic changes after this arc.
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