Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Mar 9, 2020 15:46:23 GMT -5
It literally HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED that it's Ashfur. He's not even obsessed with her anymore. If it's him, Squirrelflight would have recognized his voice after the sudden change moments before she got exiled. As far as we know, it hasn't been confirmed. And what was written in Squirrelflight's Hope was anything but bs. He's not even obsessed with her anymore. And what was written in Squirrelflight's Hope was anything but bs
how would you know that?
You're right, it hasn't been confirmed. But they have made it extremely obvious in LS and TST that it is Ashfur. It really can't be anyone else, as the rest all have multiple pieces of evidence pointing against them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 15:50:31 GMT -5
Spinestar Ashfur also has some evidence pointing against him. Even if that can be explained away, so can him acting all obsessed with her on the anti-Ashfur side. I don't understand why people get so bothered when people have different theories for who it can be.
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Mar 9, 2020 17:04:49 GMT -5
I've explained that already, spinestar.
Anyway, I'm going to leave it at here. We all have different opinions, so we'll see who the impostor is soon.
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Post by Fernshiine on Mar 9, 2020 18:02:52 GMT -5
Aye, Spinestar *Ravenpaw*
I definitely think it's not Ashfur but I have reread Lost Stars and come to an...even odder realization.
The impostor is not obsessed with Squirrelflight. He clings to her and uses her as an opportunity to take over the Clan. He uses her to see things in Clan life. And I remember a part in Silent Thaw where he is surprised by the smell of herbs. In fact, all he seems to know about is the warrior code, naming, and things of that nature. Also when Bramblestar is naming Bristlefrost he seems to already be battling a possession...yet he looked uneasily up when he chose her name.
The suffix "frost" might be used to clue into who's possessing him? Yes, Ashfur interacted with Hawkfrost but they didn't exactly have a friendship between each other.
A part of me thought Goosefeather up until the cat showed confusion with herbs.
I dunno. But there are clues if you continue looking into it. And whoever is in possession has some sort of control over StarClan.
If Hawkfrost still existed I'd think him...but clearly he faded. Yet could this be a ghost cat? Not StarClan or Dark Forest? The cat has an interest in the life of Bramblestar, not specifically Squirrelflight. Ashfur wouldn't have exiled Squirrelflight. And an interest in Tree? Or Mothwing? Come on now, what would he have against that?
A thing that compels me is that the cat seemed rather confused on certain aspects of Clan life, despite having an obsession with the warrior code. Sol seems likely, as he would dislike The Three to a fair extent and despise prophecies. He enjoyed wreaking havoc among the Clans.
HOWEVER, Sol was indeed a part of a Clan once and would be more familiar with basic things like herbs being used to cure cats. Was there ever a rogue who wanted to join the Clans but was driven out and made it clear how much it hurt? Or a loner, for that matter?
The thing that stumps me is the voice being male. If it wasn't I'd have many more guesses.
The evidence is there...but it doesn't seem to point to one cat.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 18:11:00 GMT -5
FernshiineI wouldn't exactly count Hawkfrost out because he was killed twice, it's not exactly known what happens to cats once they die twice. He could be living as a ghost, but a very faint ghost, or something? However, his sister was a medicine cat, so I don't know if he'd be confused about herbs. The impostor did know about using mint to disguise the smell of death, I think? So, he does have some medicine cat knowledge. Didn't Squirrelflight also stand up to Hawkfrost before?
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 9, 2020 18:17:04 GMT -5
But he literally is obsessed with her. Any suggestions she made, he didn't take it really into consideration. anything things that she rebutted, he ignored he. He literally was noted to keep her n his den with him constantly and tried to keep her by his side to the point that he got rid of her duties as deputy so she wouldn't be distracted from him. However it is times where she defies him that he becomes angry, he was very controlling of her and wanted to decide everything for her. Ashfur was similar, it's why he and Squirrelflight didn't work out, he was practically suffocating her flame, and trying to be overprotective of her, something that clearly ticked her off. On top of that, he also tries to excuse her as a codebreaker, and only her, he did not do the same treatment for any other cat, even ones that were related to him like, or seen as family to the other cats, just Squirrelflight. Also, you can't say Squirrelflight isn't going to be vital to the reveal of the possessor when the next book literally has her as POV and saying how it's her job to finally reveal who it is because she found out the truth. The possessor was angry with Squirrelflight, not only because she kept disobeying him but because she found out the truth about who he was, and when she didn't fall in line with what he wanted when she rejected him despite having Bramble's face, he didn't like that and retaliated. Ashfur is the only cat in the entire series that has ever behaved that way toward Squirrelflight like that on a personal level. And if the imposter wasn't him, it would literally make zero sense to make her the MC in the 4th book and revolving it around his reveal, just for it to be a rando. Because from a writing perspective, and in the current narrative it would make no sense. The Erins are quite obvious with their writing a lot of the times, I've even successfully predicted quite a few things in the past when it came to the events of the story; such as the TwigFin burnout, SkyClan finally moving to the lake, Tigerheartstar, and Dovewing leaving TC, and now even Shadowsight being taken out of commission. Their writing is too obvious. Through the process of elimination, the evidence can also point to Ashfur as well. If anything, if the possessor isn't Ashfur, and some rando, again, that's just bad writing. Imo the only character that could possibly be used besides him tbh is probably the owner of the voice that talked to Mapleshade in her novella, but that would still be considerably out of the blue.
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Post by ❅Maplefrost❅ on Mar 9, 2020 18:18:42 GMT -5
Also, I don't know why the double dead concept is so confusing for some when it's been used in other media before. I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't find it that strange.
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Post by Fernshiine on Mar 9, 2020 19:30:15 GMT -5
Fernshiine I wouldn't exactly count Hawkfrost out because he was killed twice, it's not exactly known what happens to cats once they die twice. He could be living as a ghost, but a very faint ghost, or something? However, his sister was a medicine cat, so I don't know if he'd be confused about herbs. The impostor did know about using mint to disguise the smell of death, I think? So, he does have some medicine cat knowledge. Didn't Squirrelflight also stand up to Hawkfrost before? YESSS. Hawkfrost would be spiteful of Squirrelflight. And I can see him using his own suffix for some reason while naming a cat. It could be a huge hint. I do wish they'd been clearer on fading. Eh oh well. The impostor would dislike Ivypool for betraying him, would have an obsession with Bramblestar, and would definitely dislike Lionblaze. I dunno why he'd target Shadowsight though. And if it's a medicine cat I feel like it would be Hawkheart. Just an idea I heard from someone. We never learned much about him. He was controversial, wasn't he?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 19:37:42 GMT -5
Fernshiine I wouldn't exactly count Hawkfrost out because he was killed twice, it's not exactly known what happens to cats once they die twice. He could be living as a ghost, but a very faint ghost, or something? However, his sister was a medicine cat, so I don't know if he'd be confused about herbs. The impostor did know about using mint to disguise the smell of death, I think? So, he does have some medicine cat knowledge. Didn't Squirrelflight also stand up to Hawkfrost before? YESSS. Hawkfrost would be spiteful of Squirrelflight. And I can see him using his own suffix for some reason while naming a cat. It could be a huge hint. I do wish they'd been clearer on fading. Eh oh well. The impostor would dislike Ivypool for betraying him, would have an obsession with Bramblestar, and would definitely dislike Lionblaze. I dunno why he'd target Shadowsight though. And if it's a medicine cat I feel like it would be Hawkheart. Just an idea I heard from someone. We never learned much about him. He was controversial, wasn't he?Hawkheart's only controversial because he killed Moonflower. But in his defense, ThunderClan attacked WindClan out of NOWHERE and started destroying their herb supplies in LEAF-BARE. In all his other appearances though, he's actually shown to be a very nice and caring cat, though, he is said to be grumpy, and that he doesn't like kits much. There's many layers to Hawkheart, and while I would love for him to more relevant, I wouldn't want it to be like this, I'd rather him get painted in a more positive light, you know?
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 9, 2020 19:43:47 GMT -5
Also, I don't know why the double dead concept is so confusing for some when it's been used in other media before. I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't find it that strange. And in a few belief systems as well, so this concept is much older than people think (it even has its own page on TV Tropes). But just because a concept has been used many times doesn't make it any less confusing. I'm personally fine with it as far as cats actually getting killed again rather than forgotten, but I really don't blame anyone for at least being disturbed by it being a thing in the series.
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 9, 2020 20:10:08 GMT -5
Plus to add, making the imposter anyone else would really just be a twist that comes out of nowhere at this point that wouldn't make any sense. Would Ashfur be predictable? Yes, but here's the thing that I feel like some folks don't know still, a predictable outcome is WAY better than a twist that is pulled out the asscrack just to be all "GOTCHA!" to the audience. To predict something that big means that the breadcrumbs were all laid out, yet nothing was fully SPELLED out to the audience as if we were babies. The crumbs were there, the puzzle pieces per say, and if it's Ashfur it's just a case of the audience calling it as per those pieces, and if proven right I always had a love in regarding literature to predict stuff and be able to go "Called it". That's the point of a mystery, to solve it, look for those clues riddled in without it holding your hand, whether it be completely obvious or subtle.
If, after all this, the big hints that focus so much on Squirrelflight, it's not Ashfur, I feel like there would need to be a REALLY big explanation for the cat they chose for the imposter and why he's acting that way with her specifically compared to everyone else, because a twist that literally doesn't make sense at the end of the day is worse imo than one many predicted based on the hints. Rather, I've seen the former annoy readers MORE than the latter because of how BS they can be.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Mar 9, 2020 20:20:57 GMT -5
Fernshiine I wouldn't exactly count Hawkfrost out because he was killed twice, it's not exactly known what happens to cats once they die twice. He could be living as a ghost, but a very faint ghost, or something? However, his sister was a medicine cat, so I don't know if he'd be confused about herbs. The impostor did know about using mint to disguise the smell of death, I think? So, he does have some medicine cat knowledge. Didn't Squirrelflight also stand up to Hawkfrost before? YESSS. Hawkfrost would be spiteful of Squirrelflight. And I can see him using his own suffix for some reason while naming a cat. It could be a huge hint. I do wish they'd been clearer on fading. Eh oh well. The impostor would dislike Ivypool for betraying him, would have an obsession with Bramblestar, and would definitely dislike Lionblaze. I dunno why he'd target Shadowsight though. And if it's a medicine cat I feel like it would be Hawkheart. Just an idea I heard from someone. We never learned much about him. He was controversial, wasn't he?Either way...he is double dead, so we can all safely rule him out and forget about him
Hawkheart targeting ThunderClan? Good one.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Mar 9, 2020 22:28:30 GMT -5
plot twist: the df cats that double died in The Last Hope are actually in the double dark forest and are somehow all possessing bramblefake at once.
In all seriousness I think it’d be interesting if it turned out there were multiple cats doing this together. I doubt it’ll happen though bc all the signs are pointing towards it just being ashfur.
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Post by Fernshiine on Mar 10, 2020 22:26:41 GMT -5
plot twist: the df cats that double died in The Last Hope are actually in the double dark forest and are somehow all possessing bramblefake at once. In all seriousness I think it’d be interesting if it turned out there were multiple cats doing this together. I doubt it’ll happen though bc all the signs are pointing towards it just being ashfur. I could see it being Hawkfrost if the double death thing was a thing.
I was wrong. After re-reading the book I realize that the impostor did know Squirrelflight in the living world. And had interactions as well.
Any other cats who had many interactions with her who may have passed? Shrewpaw would be a funny character to bring back since he was happy in StarClan and died AGES ago after rarely being mentioned.
I would hate if it was Ashfur. But I want to stick with options out of StarClan. Cats who may have interacted with her and died without heading to the starry territory. Ashfur wouldn't be a "pure evil" presence and would show no interest in accusing cats of breaking the code in every Clan. I cannot see why he would target Shadowpaw/sight rather than Alderheart, who is Squirrelflight's son and would be more enjoyable for him to play with. He would have no wish to punish Mothwing...although it is curious that Cloudtail isn't punished as well. Well, I can see why kind of since Mothwing was a medicine cat and lied nonstop to her Clanmates. Cloudtail outright stated how he felt about StarClan.
It wouldn't make sense for it to be Ashfur, other than that he was "silky" with Squirrelflight, knew her before, harmed her daughter, and named Jayfeather and Lionblaze codebreakers. And he's not working alone even if he is. But why would this cat be surprised at where the medicine den is? He knew quite well where it was when he was alive. And he cared for the elders as much as any Clan cat. He had no immense interest with the code either.
I used to hope it was Ashfur but now it just...would be weird. Even if this cat knows Clan customs he seemed rather confused on many things in ThunderClan camp. Sniffing the edges and such. And he was never a power hungry feline, just kinda heartbroken and wanting revenge. I think this was a cat who knew her in the old forest. Yet I can't discern who. I was wrong about it being a medicine cat from the past.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 10, 2020 22:40:45 GMT -5
If it is Ashfur, it makes sense he wouldn't recognize the camp because alot has changed since he died and/or he's trying to re-familiarize himself with his surroundings.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Mar 11, 2020 5:47:44 GMT -5
plot twist: the df cats that double died in The Last Hope are actually in the double dark forest and are somehow all possessing bramblefake at once. In all seriousness I think it’d be interesting if it turned out there were multiple cats doing this together. I doubt it’ll happen though bc all the signs are pointing towards it just being ashfur. I could see it being Hawkfrost if the double death thing was a thing.
I was wrong. After re-reading the book I realize that the impostor did know Squirrelflight in the living world. And had interactions as well.
Any other cats who had many interactions with her who may have passed? Shrewpaw would be a funny character to bring back since he was happy in StarClan and died AGES ago after rarely being mentioned.
I would hate if it was Ashfur. But I want to stick with options out of StarClan. Cats who may have interacted with her and died without heading to the starry territory. Ashfur wouldn't be a "pure evil" presence and would show no interest in accusing cats of breaking the code in every Clan. I cannot see why he would target Shadowpaw/sight rather than Alderheart, who is Squirrelflight's son and would be more enjoyable for him to play with. He would have no wish to punish Mothwing...although it is curious that Cloudtail isn't punished as well. Well, I can see why kind of since Mothwing was a medicine cat and lied nonstop to her Clanmates. Cloudtail outright stated how he felt about StarClan.
It wouldn't make sense for it to be Ashfur, other than that he was "silky" with Squirrelflight, knew her before, harmed her daughter, and named Jayfeather and Lionblaze codebreakers. And he's not working alone even if he is. But why would this cat be surprised at where the medicine den is? He knew quite well where it was when he was alive. And he cared for the elders as much as any Clan cat. He had no immense interest with the code either.
I used to hope it was Ashfur but now it just...would be weird. Even if this cat knows Clan customs he seemed rather confused on many things in ThunderClan camp. Sniffing the edges and such. And he was never a power hungry feline, just kinda heartbroken and wanting revenge. I think this was a cat who knew her in the old forest. Yet I can't discern who. I was wrong about it being a medicine cat from the past. 5 years away from a place is a long time and it makes sense for someone to forget some things. Admittedly, even I am confused as to why Ashfur is being so cruel to the elders and rest of TC, whom he seemed to respect, and in general. Obviously he went the Mapleshade route/became crazy in StarClan. Shadowsight as a target makes perfect sense for any imposter, as he is interfering and not following along with the imposter’s plan.
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Post by Card against Humanity on Mar 11, 2020 7:54:54 GMT -5
^ plus the Erin’s are never consistent with things like that tbh. I wouldn’t be surprised if there ends up being plotholes with what the imposter should/shouldn’t know even if it’s not ashfur
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 12, 2020 19:39:56 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe it's Ashfur? Besides his obsession with Squirrelflight, he's managed to exile both Lionblaze and Jayfeather which HE WAS HOPING TO DO AFTER THE SECRET WAS REVEALED. There's literally no one in the entire series who has a motive to target this family as much as he was doing. Remember, Squirrelflight AND Leafpool (who imposter hates too) have both regained an intense amount of respect among the clans as both deputy and medicine cat.
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Post by Woofzie on Mar 12, 2020 20:47:04 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe it's Ashfur? Besides his obsession with Squirrelflight, he's managed to exile both Lionblaze and Jayfeather which HE WAS HOPING TO DO AFTER THE SECRET WAS REVEALED. There's literally no one in the entire series who has a motive to target this family as much as he was doing. Remember, Squirrelflight AND Leafpool (who imposter hates too) have both regained an intense amount of respect among the clans as both deputy and medicine cat. Also, didn't Kate confirm a while ago, way before Lost Stars came out, that a 'highly controversial character' would be coming back as villain in TBC? I really don't see any other character more controversial than Ashfur. And the hints given in LS and TST just confirm it.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 12, 2020 20:49:49 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe it's Ashfur? Besides his obsession with Squirrelflight, he's managed to exile both Lionblaze and Jayfeather which HE WAS HOPING TO DO AFTER THE SECRET WAS REVEALED. There's literally no one in the entire series who has a motive to target this family as much as he was doing. Remember, Squirrelflight AND Leafpool (who imposter hates too) have both regained an intense amount of respect among the clans as both deputy and medicine cat. Also, didn't Kate confirm a while ago, way before Lost Stars came out, that a 'highly controversial character' would be coming back as villain in TBC? I really don't see any other character more controversial than Ashfur. And the hints given in LS and TST just confirm it. The only other controversial character is Thistleclaw. And this doesn't scream Thistleclaw. Like, in any capacity.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 20:49:52 GMT -5
*Ottersplash*Maybe people just like exploring other possibilities, I don't really see the harm in it, or why people get so bothered, or try to completely shut their theories down.
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Mar 12, 2020 21:08:18 GMT -5
*Ottersplash* Maybe people just like exploring other possibilities, I don't really see the harm in it, or why people get so bothered, or try to completely shut their theories down. That fact that the evidence makes it sooo obviously Ashfur to the point where it cant really be anyone else and that the theories (not this) opposing him really have no evidence themselves most of the time (i.e randomly and vehemently asserting its Mudclaw without reason) makes it hard not to question or reason against them
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 21:23:46 GMT -5
*Ottersplash* Maybe people just like exploring other possibilities, I don't really see the harm in it, or why people get so bothered, or try to completely shut their theories down. That fact that the evidence makes it sooo obviously Ashfur to the point where it cant really be anyone else and that the theories (not this) opposing him really have no evidence themselves most of the time (i.e randomly and vehemently asserting its Mudclaw without reason) makes it hard not to question or reason against them No one on here has even said it's Mudclaw, have they? Still, I don't see why people have to patronize the people who want to explore other possibilities.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 12, 2020 21:31:09 GMT -5
ChickenWe're not trying to be patronizing, just state the facts of the case. People can state whatever theories they want, but people will still point out the facts
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2020 21:50:47 GMT -5
Chicken We're not trying to be patronizing, just state the facts of the case. People can state whatever theories they want, but people will still point out the facts That's true
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Heterosexual
Spinestar
Got The Ashfur Tattoo!
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Post by Spinestar on Mar 12, 2020 22:41:10 GMT -5
That fact that the evidence makes it sooo obviously Ashfur to the point where it cant really be anyone else and that the theories (not this) opposing him really have no evidence themselves most of the time (i.e randomly and vehemently asserting its Mudclaw without reason) makes it hard not to question or reason against them No one on here has even said it's Mudclaw, have they? Still, I don't see why people have to patronize the people who want to explore other possibilities. I am referring to all theories in general from what I’ve seen on the internet, some indeed do think Mudclaw is the imposter. Again, with the overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to Ashfur, it’s natural and human to challenge an argument with little to no evidence, or even arguments that reject Ashfur at this point. I’m/We’re not trying to throw anyone under the bus. We’re just having a debate here, not an argument.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2020 6:47:28 GMT -5
No one on here has even said it's Mudclaw, have they? Still, I don't see why people have to patronize the people who want to explore other possibilities. I am referring to all theories in general from what I’ve seen on the internet, some indeed do think Mudclaw is the imposter. Again, with the overwhelming amount of evidence pointing to Ashfur, it’s natural and human to challenge an argument with little to no evidence, or even arguments that reject Ashfur at this point. I’m/We’re not trying to throw anyone under the bus. We’re just having a debate here, not an argument. Ohh okay. I'm sorry for getting so...whatever about all of this, I just don't want anyone to be afraid to share their theories, even if they aren't about Ashfur, because there's no harm in having a different theory, and I enjoy reading them, you know?
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Post by kells on Mar 14, 2020 11:33:18 GMT -5
If Ashfur or any StarClan cat is the imposter, then that'd be a blow to the lore since StarClan cats are supposedly above vengeance and discontent? Even Hollyleaf stated it in SqH, things that happened in their past life become less important
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Post by barberz on Mar 14, 2020 12:24:29 GMT -5
If Ashfur or any StarClan cat is the imposter, then that'd be a blow to the lore since StarClan cats are supposedly above vengeance and discontent? Even Hollyleaf stated it in SqH, things that happened in their past life become less important Maybe if the impostor is Ashfur (Which i'll be honest I don't think is,) the things that Squirrelflight did to him was so bad that he couldn't forgive her and decided to do it.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 14, 2020 12:26:36 GMT -5
If Ashfur or any StarClan cat is the imposter, then that'd be a blow to the lore since StarClan cats are supposedly above vengeance and discontent? Even Hollyleaf stated it in SqH, things that happened in their past life become less important I feel like we've already seen that Starclan cats don't really become wiser or above conflict than they were in life though. Yellowfang lost her brain (until SqH) and Moth Flight was angry that someone had dared not follow her code. Spottedleaf is also capable of jealousy, as she points out that sometimes she wishes Sandstorm would just disappear. Plus, didn't Starclan straight up split into clans for a bit after arguments?
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