WindClan Leaders Are Terrible

Yes, the life of a warrior is dangerous, but think about what was happening to the tunnelers in only a few moons: Lilywhisker retired early because of a cave-in that injured her leg and a warrior named Leafshine died in the same accident, there were high tensions between the tunnelers and moor runners, an entire patrol nearly drowned, WindClan might've been driven out by ShadowClan had the greenleaf rogues not been there since the tunnelers were away, and Sandgorse died saving Sparrow.

Yes, Heatherstar favored the moor runners, but it's not hard to see why she went as far as to abandon the tradition altogether. Tunnelling was more unpredictable, and therefore more dangerous. There's a reason why cats like Palebird and Hickorynose were relieved their kits would never get the chance to become tunnelers like they did. It was also started because WindClan was going through a rough leaf-bare when it first started, so the tradition might've also been seen as outdated to many if the Clan was doing well now.

Just because some things are traditions doesn't necessarily mean that they're always going to be good traditions. Things change. It was either abandon tunneling or risk more cats getting hurt or killed.

Well In Tallstar's case it was a poor decision but it was one that wouldnt be done had he not been old and fading so i believe he deserves a pass for that. I mean he was a very clear-minded when Bluestar was in her last moons and acting erratic so it only shows he should be excused for that choice however chaotic things went on to go from there. 

The other leaders were, besides Heatherstar, were just horrible. Which is horrible cause i really like WindClan cats. 

Oh yeah young Tallstar was a hothead for numerous reasons yes lmao. At the end he really did find his way to become the revered cat he is/was.

I see what you mean. I wonder if Mudclaw would have been a decent leader, a bit like Blackstar. I mean WindClan and ThunderCaln wouldnt be as much on such an edge had been leader cause he already showed how he felt about them and Firestar. 

cowbird

Found it!

I agree  
I imagine if he was leader, he would have picked Webfoot or Tornear as his deputy, preferably Tornear, he was a nice guy, but not a complete push-over. 
You're welcome

Again!?!

When did he ever say that he was excited about the fact that Tallstar was going to die soon? 

Most of this series was told from ThunderClan's POV, a clan who didn't have a very high opinion of Mudclaw.
I'm sure that if it was told from WindClan's POV, then things probably would have seemed different.
It all depends on the POV it's told from.

I agree with you about the ending of your post though

I think Vector might've been referring to this scene.



He didn't have to say it, just the fact that his voice is cold is enough. Also, while it's important to consider other PoVs, it isn't always everything. It should be noted however that Mudclaw did show concern for Tallstar earlier in the book in regards to resting, but it's pretty clear as the book goes on that he seems to be waiting for Tallstar to die so he can take his place. Tallstar was already dying at this point, so whether or not you consider Mudclaw anticipating his own leader's death to be more out of wanting what's best for WindClan or out of his own greed is up to you.

Another thing, just because Mudclaw was nice to other cats on occasion doesn't necessarily mean anything. The Clans are also mostly at peace by the time the patrol finds Ravenpaw and Barley, so Mudclaw wouldn't have had much of a reason to be hostile towards them anyway, and especially not long after the battle against BloodClan. He could've simply gotten worse once he had gotten a taste of power after becoming deputy, and Tallstar dying didn't help matters, either. By the time he made his deal with Hawkfrost, he was clearly desperate to get back what he thought was rightfully his.

Mudclaw clearly cared about WindClan more than anything, but took things too far. It's mentioned on his page in The Ultimate Guide that he was "determined to be a strong leader without having the bloodthirsty ambition that had polluted the paths of leaders in other Clans" and even if that were so, just because he had no intention of being a tyrant doesn't necessarily mean he was never going to become one. It's possible he could've mellowed out after he had gotten his nine lives, but that clearly wasn't a risk Tallstar thought was worth taking.

It's funny cause wanting to kill another leader was pretty much what Hawkfrost wanted on his end the deal. And even then there was actually no confirmation Mudclaw would have actually done it, same with making Hawk deputy, and there never will be unless an Erin says other wise. Until then, he's really much less of an issue compared to leaders that have committed much bigger atrocities like Blackstar, Leopardstar and most importantly Onestar.

Also, I doubt Mudclaw would have made it far if Hawkfrost got his way. In a scenario where Bramble doesn't kill him, and Mudclaw does miraculously make him his deputy, Hawkfrost would have attempted to assassinate him. Just like he tried with Firestar, and was planning to do with the other leaders, so he and Bramble could rule four-into-two clans.

Mudclaw isn't really a bad cat at heart, and had the right credentials to be leader, it's just the unfortunate situation of Tallstar making last minute bad decisions, Hawkfrost being manipulative on all fronts, and Mudclaw not being a protagonist's bestie, that put him at a disadvantage in the narrative.

In the past he's never had any actual diplomatic issues unless it directly linked to WindClan's being threatened, like for example the whole Brokenstar situation. Mudclaw also had no problem asking for other Clans for help, and being helped, when it meant his clan would survive in the long run. He definitely put his clan first for the most part, even the rebellion happened in the same way since his clanmates encouraged him to rise up for it.

It's stated in the guides that Tallstar's decision sparked the rebellion, because of this Mudclaw had the support of many cats, and not just cats in WindClan, but also River and Shadow as well. It encouraged Mudclaw to rebel together against Onewhisker, and his TC knights.  However, Webfoot is noted to be Mudclaw's fiercest supporter, while Hawkfrost is noted to be his most vocal supporter.

Mudclaw: "Tell him how you came to me and
offered your help if I made you WindClan’s deputy . . . and
helped you take over RiverClan later."

The guy gave an outright confession, what more do you want for you to call it a confirmation? At this rate we might as well call any statement that's not seen on-screen fake. 

Yes, Mudclaw would not have made it far if Hawkfrost had his way, but that's not due to moral fiber, just due to Hawkfrost being even worse. I seriously question why you think that's a moral exoneration. Having poor choice in allies doesn't make one morally better off, it just makes one unintelligent in addition to morally poor.



Really? The same guy who ignored orders and bolted across the Thunderpath without waiting because of his ego? 

With all do respect Vect I'm not bothering with you again. I'm tired of the echo chamber, so I don't want to debate.

Neither would I. Blackstar for all his pride and slight greed never did much harm as leader.