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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 9, 2019 13:55:19 GMT -5
If Tigerheart continues acting like an utter heel in The Broken Code, I really hope that cats mention off-handedly "Oh, your father was a better leader".
But this is a pipe dream because the biggest punching bag in these books by far is poor Rowanstar and I'm still sad that he gets treated like a villain. Not even just by the authors sometimes, the unfortunate sap.
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Post by Haze on Mar 9, 2019 14:18:41 GMT -5
I dont really remember any scene of Rowanclaw being a good leader, even in BS he was already lacking to be honest. He didn't deserved what happened to him because of the ungrateful apprentices but still... he was better as a deputy.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 9, 2019 14:49:11 GMT -5
I dont really remember any scene of Rowanclaw being a good leader, even in BS he was already lacking to be honest. He didn't deserved what happened to him because of the ungrateful apprentices but still... he was better as a deputy. Being an average leader would be an improvement over Tigerheart's stunts though.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 16:35:54 GMT -5
Tigerstar has been a way better leader than Rowanstar ever was thus far lol. You can think he's a jerk (which I personally disagree with), but he's the better leader.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 9, 2019 16:40:02 GMT -5
I can name some good points for Rowanstar’s pros as leader and as just a cat in general.
This is just right off the bat just as a cat himself.
- Has never come close to breaking the amount of codes leaders before him have. Has never murdered in cold blood or abused his clanmates physically while he was in leadership. - Was an extremely passionate and caring mentor, greiving heavily over Talonpaw’s murder and desperately desiring to avenge and honor his lost apprentice. - Was clearly respected and capable enough to be chosen as deputy and served the position well, calming Blackstar at times and offering good advice. - Was a great father, clearly sharing a close bond with all three of his kits. He was proud of their acomplishments. - Learned to accept and support Tawnypelt, as shown when he defended her against the clan’s accusations and remembered the support the Tribe Cats showed the clan. Dutifully took care over their kittens as his mate left on a journey she could have easily not come back from. - Has moments of intelligent strategy, as seen in Night Whispers when he’s offering tactics for the next battle with Thunderclan.
These are moments I saw from him during his leadership. He was doing perfectly fine in Bramblestar’s Storm.
- Treated Bramblestar with courtesy when he was visiting, and while he was assuring him that Shadowclan can handle itself, he was not as aggressive as prior leaders would have been. - Treats other leaders with courtesy at gatherings, and accepts help when it is needed. - Led his clan with strength and a desire to make them as strong as they could be, but never resorted to breaking codes or acting on pure aggression. Refused to let outside strangers in when they were not well known or trusted. Obviously, considering Shadowclan’s morbid past that he grew up in. - Tried to shut down the apprentice’s and warrior’s seeming thirst for aggression and battle, and condemned holding Twigpaw as a hostage, stating that in quotes “Sickness is no excuse for a Clan to act like rouges.” - Urged his clanmates to come to the gathering at the end of Thunder and Shadow and speak their grievences with words rather than allowing them to demand for an attack or bloodshed. - Did not get angry when Puddleshine felt he had to stay with the cats who betrayed Rowanstar, understanding that he needed to help the masses before him. - Defended the honor of the cats who betrayed him, constantly having faith in his clan and not holding grudges upon them for destroying his self-esteem and credit. - Fought hard to try and return to a clan who hated him, desperate to ensure their safety and forgive them for their mistakes. He did not hold it against them.
And even after he gave away his lives.
- Stepped down at the calls of his clanmates who constantly berated him rather than forcefully regaining power through abuse or anger. Forgave his clanmates and chose to merge with Skyclan as Shadowclan would have been shattered and frantic without a clan structure. Tigerheart’s abandonment broke him, really. - Respected Leafstar’s clan and hospitality and did not fight her when she made orders. Was one of the only cats to actually show gratitude for the clan that housed them in their weakest moment. - Gave up his life in a heartbeat to protect his mate and the kits of cats who helped destroy his clan and who hated him. - Still had faith as he was dying that his son would come back, and that Shadowclan would be whole again. - Never hated or slandered his clanmates, always believing in the good in them and that they would come to their senses. How unbelieveably strong you would have to be, to find it in yourself to forgive every single cat who wronged you, to still love them and want to protect and ensure safety for them.
He was honorable. He didn’t ever resort to abuse or murder or code breaking to control his clanmates. Treated other leaders cordially when he needed to. Loved his mate and kits and defended them, was proud of them. Loved his apprentices and honored Blackstar each time he was slandered. Gave up his nine lives and put away his pride to ensure his clanmates were safe with Skyclan, forgave every cat who betrayed him and who destroyed his clan in favor of their safety and wellbeing, chose a darn good deputy until he had no other options left besides his mate and son, condemned holding Twigpaw hostage even as he was sick and dying, refused to let his clan act like rouges and invite cats in willy nilly, desired to use words rather than violence at the gathering after Windclan would not give up the herbs and desired all his clanmates do the same with level heads, was shown to be strategic in battle tactics and capable of stopping arguments during his deputyship, I can go on and on.
At the end of the day, his deputyship alone proves his capabilities as a leading cat. And he was not a bad leader in the slightest. Certainly not compared to every leader prior. Which honestly leaves it to the clan being utter jerks and impossible to control without physical abuse and fear.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 9, 2019 16:41:33 GMT -5
Tigerstar has been a way better leader than Rowanstar ever was thus far lol. You can think he's a jerk (which I personally disagree with), but he's the better leader. Tigerstar could walk on a log and cats would worship it for literally no reason. He’s not a good leader in the slightest. His clanmates are just suddenly kiss-asses and have no issues with him when he was easily worse and more disloyal than Rowanstar.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 16:43:13 GMT -5
Tigerstar has been a way better leader than Rowanstar ever was thus far lol. You can think he's a jerk (which I personally disagree with), but he's the better leader. Tigerstar could walk on a log and cats would worship it for literally no reason. He’s not a good leader in the slightest. His clanmates are just suddenly kiss-asses and have no issues with him when he was easily worse and more disloyal than Rowanstar. Getting cats to respect you is one of the most essential parts of being a leader. Whether you think he earned it or not the fact is was he was able to get it, something Rowanstar was never able to do.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 9, 2019 16:45:24 GMT -5
Tigerstar could walk on a log and cats would worship it for literally no reason. He’s not a good leader in the slightest. His clanmates are just suddenly kiss-asses and have no issues with him when he was easily worse and more disloyal than Rowanstar. Getting cats to respect you is one of the most essential parts of being a leader. Whether you think he earned it or not the fact is was he was able to get it, something Rowanstar was never able to do. It’s literally the greatest author’s bias I’ve seen in this series. He did literally nothing special. Cats “respected” him literally out of nowhere and contradicted themselves so many times to make Tigerheart out to be good when he was literally doing nothing.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 16:50:59 GMT -5
Getting cats to respect you is one of the most essential parts of being a leader. Whether you think he earned it or not the fact is was he was able to get it, something Rowanstar was never able to do. It’s literally the greatest author’s bias I’ve seen in this series. He did literally nothing special. Cats “respected” him literally out of nowhere and contradicted themselves so many times to make Tigerheart out to be good when he was literally doing nothing. He had better judgement in TRS than Rowanstar had throughout the entirety of his leadership, so that's probably part of it.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 9, 2019 16:55:15 GMT -5
It’s literally the greatest author’s bias I’ve seen in this series. He did literally nothing special. Cats “respected” him literally out of nowhere and contradicted themselves so many times to make Tigerheart out to be good when he was literally doing nothing. He had better judgement in TRS than Rowanstar had throughout the entirety of his leadership, so that's probably part of it. Which he then goes completely against in the last book and does a 180 on. It’s only okay to invade and drive away Skyclan when Tigerstar does it, I suppose. Considering Tigerheart was so keen on letting Skyclan stay and now he invades their camp. Better judgement also being abandoning his clan for a cat from another clan after getting her pregnant?
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 9, 2019 17:00:10 GMT -5
Rowanstar deserved better than the crap the editors forced him to put up with. Idk why they pretty much hated him so much to where they destroyed him as a character and leader, even going so far as to break his spirit and have him step down as a result of it. Geebus man we get it editors, you don't want him to be leader, but you didn't have to utterly RUIN him like that just so that his dumbass, code-breaking son could take his place and suddenly the clan walks all over Tigerfart as if he's some magical Cat Jesus (Which he has no right to the title because lol Firestar had that first and it's staying that way). I still to this day refuse to call him "Tigerstar" because he doesn't deserve my respect of calling him by his leader name, especially after he drove out Skyclan.
I really do hope Rowanstar is remembered more than just a """Weak""" leader just because he didn't want to be some tyrant during his reign. Shadowclan not having a leader that isn't blood thirsty or some shit is just not allowed for some reason otherwise they are screeched at by their own clan for no reason. I hope they don't slander his name ever with that. "Oh he doesn't solve clan problems through vengance? BAD LEADER! TERRIBLE LEADER! DIE DIE DIE DI-" just oh MY god just SHUT UP! HE WOULDN'T HAVE PULLED THE SHIT TIGERFART PULLED THAT'S FOR SURE.
He's done more and put up with more than Tigerfart ever could and so reasonably too (I think Moonblazer's list up there did a good job summing it up) I was surprised he held out for as long as he did. Guy deserves respect and to be remembered tbh.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 9, 2019 17:10:19 GMT -5
The worst part is that a genuinely honorable and good cat is seen as weak and punished while a cat who abandoned his clan and family, broke the code constantly, invaded a clan and forced them out of their camp, and who held a medicine cat hostage who was saving their medicine cat’s life is rewarded and seen as a hero.
Great message there.
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#a3c5e6
Name Colour
𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵
Warrior Fanatic
All hail me, the flower-flushing queen of Prague
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Post by 𝓣𝓲𝓷𝓾𝓿𝓲𝓮𝓵 on Mar 9, 2019 17:56:02 GMT -5
It's a shame how he was treated, and if there's anything Tigerheart can do, it's trying to restore his father's honor. Maybe if he and Dovewing ever have another litter, he'll name one of them Rowankit.
And honestly, from what I can remember at least, we never actually see Rowanstar as a weak leader unless it's out of his control. That said, considering that even the older cats thought the apprentices were right even before Darktail took over and the fact that ShadowClan cats are prideful and value physical strength over anything else (even allowing their apprentices to fight over food with claws out), there certainly seems to have been a problem than just a few young cats going through an extreme rebellious phase. However, this issue was never explicitly addressed.
I also feel like Rowanstar gets too much hate for what happened. He wasn't even that bad, from what I can recall. For example, in BS, it's mentioned that he'd been making sure his Clanmates ate before he did. He's hostile towards ThunderClan when he first becomes leader, but this was also during a time when all the Clans were suffering and Blackstar had just died. His daughter Dawnpelt was also heavily pregnant at this point in time and his mate had gone to ThunderClan and told Bramblestar what was going on.
And look, I like Tawnypelt, but especially from Rowanstar's perspective and the circumstances, it's understandable why he'd be angry with her. Not to mention that Bramblestar is younger than him in age and older in terms of leader experience and then there's this annoyance of ThunderClan always getting involved in matters that don't involve them (whether they mean to or not), so there's also this need of Rowanstar wanting to prove himself.
And until stated otherwise, I think the events of BS is what led to this entire mess. Rowanstar may not have asked ThunderClan for help, but he was still having trouble managing certain situations until they came to help. His Clanmates probably saw this as weakness, unintentionally influenced the younger generation to view him as this as well, and then whatever tension there may have been just kept on getting worse from TaS onwards.
And I say this as a Needletail fan, he more than anyone really did deserve better. At least he died honorably.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 18:08:23 GMT -5
Forgot you're not allowed to like Tigerheart on this forum.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 9, 2019 18:17:37 GMT -5
Forgot you're not allowed to like Tigerheart on this forum. Nobody’s saying you can’t like Tigerheart. Some of us just simply don’t find him deserving or likeable at all. I respect your opinion to like Tigerheart, but not everyone is going to share that opinion.
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Post by VIXENCLAW on Mar 9, 2019 18:21:28 GMT -5
It’s literally the greatest author’s bias I’ve seen in this series. He did literally nothing special. Cats “respected” him literally out of nowhere and contradicted themselves so many times to make Tigerheart out to be good when he was literally doing nothing. He had better judgement in TRS than Rowanstar had throughout the entirety of his leadership, so that's probably part of it. Just gotta say one thing - Tigerheart had horrible judgement in TRS from what I remembered, even if Rowanstar's judgement was a little bad there's no way it could be worse then Tigerheart's. Tigerheart was literally threatining Alderheart, implying that if he didn't heal Puddleshine he might kill him, even though it wasn't Alderheart's fault at all that Puddleshine got injured. He didn't care one bit about even questioning Juniperclaw, it was Dovewing that convinced him to do it. And he is pretty overly worshipped by the ShadowClan cats, don't forgot that in TS he was the one who created peace with SkyClan, and that's what mainly made all the ShadowClan cats think he was amazing and that Rowanstar was a pile of crap for almost attacking them. And then all the sudden once he's made leader he wants to drive out SkyClan, and the ShadowClan cats are all for it. Like seriously, they give Rowanstar all this crap for one thing but once Tigerheart does it they love it??? I may have some of the facts wrong. If I do, I apologize.
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Post by Haze on Mar 9, 2019 18:41:23 GMT -5
Of course Tigerstar will be seen as strong leader compared to Rowanclaw, the first brought with him a ton of cats that made Shadowclan strong again after the second disbanded them.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 9, 2019 19:29:06 GMT -5
Forgot you're not allowed to like Tigerheart on this forum. That's not the problem. The problem is ignoring the honorable cat that Rowanstar is in order to beef Tigerheart up. In any other clan besides ShadowClan, who doesn't learn from their past, Rowanstar would have been seen as a good leader. This is fact.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 19:35:02 GMT -5
Forgot you're not allowed to like Tigerheart on this forum. That's not the problem. The problem is ignoring the honorable cat that Rowanstar is in order to beef Tigerheart up. In any other clan besides ShadowClan, who doesn't learn from their past, Rowanstar would have been seen as a good leader. This is fact. There is nothing factual about the statement that Rowanstar is a good leader. He was unable to gain the respect of his Clan, did nothing about rogues infringing on his territory, and disbanded his Clan because he couldn’t keep it together. That’s not a good leader to me.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 9, 2019 19:39:31 GMT -5
That's not the problem. The problem is ignoring the honorable cat that Rowanstar is in order to beef Tigerheart up. In any other clan besides ShadowClan, who doesn't learn from their past, Rowanstar would have been seen as a good leader. This is fact. There is nothing factual about the statement that Rowanstar is a good leader. He was unable to gain the respect of his Clan, did nothing about rogues infringing on his territory, and disbanded his Clan because he couldn’t keep it together. That’s not a good leader to me. That was all out of his control because his clan values brute strength and being feared over anything common sense. How do you control a clan that doesn't want to be controlled? Besides going the Tigerstar and Brokenstar route? Unfortunately, THAT is what they see as strong. They went for Darktail because he was that kind of "strong" AKA Shadowclan likes bullies
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 19:40:48 GMT -5
There is nothing factual about the statement that Rowanstar is a good leader. He was unable to gain the respect of his Clan, did nothing about rogues infringing on his territory, and disbanded his Clan because he couldn’t keep it together. That’s not a good leader to me. That was all out of his control because his clan values brute strength and being feared over anything common sense. How do you control a clan that doesn't want to be controlled? Besides going the Tigerstar and Brokenstar route? Unfortunately, THAT is what they see as strong. They went for Darktail because he was that kind of "strong" AKA Shadowclan likes bullies Blackstar and Tigerstar somehow managed to be able to do so. It is quite literally the job of a leader to lead and keep his cats together and he was unable to do so. The majority of that is on him.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 9, 2019 19:45:05 GMT -5
That was all out of his control because his clan values brute strength and being feared over anything common sense. How do you control a clan that doesn't want to be controlled? Besides going the Tigerstar and Brokenstar route? Unfortunately, THAT is what they see as strong. They went for Darktail because he was that kind of "strong" AKA Shadowclan likes bullies Blackstar and Tigerstar somehow managed to be able to do so. It is quite literally the job of a leader to lead and keep his cats together and he was unable to do so. The majority of that is on him. Look, I love Blackstar, but his clanmates most likely had some fear of him. He was a deputy under Brokenstar and Tigerstar for a reason. He was a bully who mellowed out. Tigerstar was all writer bias. He can do exactly what Rowanstar did with different results just because the writers like him more
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 19:46:28 GMT -5
Blackstar and Tigerstar somehow managed to be able to do so. It is quite literally the job of a leader to lead and keep his cats together and he was unable to do so. The majority of that is on him. Look, I love Blackstar, but his clanmates most likely had some fear of him. He was a deputy under Brokenstar and Tigerstar for a reason. He was a bully who mellowed out. Tigerstar was all writer bias. He can do exactly what Rowanstar did with different results just because the writers like him moreThis is my favorite argument people on this forum make.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 9, 2019 19:50:56 GMT -5
Look, I love Blackstar, but his clanmates most likely had some fear of him. He was a deputy under Brokenstar and Tigerstar for a reason. He was a bully who mellowed out. Tigerstar was all writer bias. He can do exactly what Rowanstar did with different results just because the writers like him moreThis is my favorite argument people on this forum make. But it's true? The writers have characters people prefer (I love Firestar, but they definitely had a bias towards him. That's why he's cat Jesus.). Tigerheart ALSO becomes a bully right after he becomes leader by threatening Alderheart and trying to chase Skyclan out, soo...
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 9, 2019 19:55:07 GMT -5
This is my favorite argument people on this forum make. But it's true? The writers have characters people prefer (I love Firestar, but they definitely had a bias towards him. That's why he's cat Jesus.). Tigerheart ALSO becomes a bully right after he becomes leader by threatening Alderheart and trying to chase Skyclan out, soo... It's the "evidence" people on this site use to try to pretend their opinions are facts.
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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 9, 2019 20:08:56 GMT -5
But it's true? The writers have characters people prefer (I love Firestar, but they definitely had a bias towards him. That's why he's cat Jesus.). Tigerheart ALSO becomes a bully right after he becomes leader by threatening Alderheart and trying to chase Skyclan out, soo... It's the "evidence" people on this site use to try to pretend their opinions are facts. Nobody's "pretending" their opinions are facts though. Tigerfart literally turns into basically a bully after he became leader, it's right there in the book. Rowanstar wouldn't dare threaten to harm a Medicine cat, a MEDICINE CAT, for crying out loud (To make it worse Tigerheart literally threatens who was pretty much his kin/cousin), nor would he drive out a clan entirely, because that's not even of his nature, which is "weak" and a bad thing to his clan for some damn reason. :/
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Post by Haze on Mar 9, 2019 20:31:14 GMT -5
It's the "evidence" people on this site use to try to pretend their opinions are facts. Nobody's "pretending" their opinions are facts though. Tigerfart literally turns into basically a bully after he became leader, it's right there in the book. Rowanstar wouldn't dare threaten to harm a Medicine cat, a MEDICINE CAT, for crying out loud (To make it worse Tigerheart literally threatens who was pretty much his kin/cousin), nor would he drive out a clan entirely, because that's not even of his nature, which is "weak" and a bad thing to his clan for some damn reason. :/ Rowanclaw drived away a kit, Violetkit to be exact, and that after he separated the sisters. With is kinda hilarious because Tigerheart was the one together with Tawnypelt that convinced Rowanclaw to take her back after she abandoned the kin.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 9, 2019 20:37:38 GMT -5
Nobody's "pretending" their opinions are facts though. Tigerfart literally turns into basically a bully after he became leader, it's right there in the book. Rowanstar wouldn't dare threaten to harm a Medicine cat, a MEDICINE CAT, for crying out loud (To make it worse Tigerheart literally threatens who was pretty much his kin/cousin), nor would he drive out a clan entirely, because that's not even of his nature, which is "weak" and a bad thing to his clan for some damn reason. :/ Rowanclaw drived away a kit, Violetkit to be exact, and that after he separated the sisters. With is kinda hilarious because Tigerheart was the one together with Tawnypelt that convinced Rowanclaw to take her back after she abandon the kin. The context of this being that Needlepaw and the other apprentices were already leaving and Needlepaw was demanding Violetkit come with her. Not a good look for Rowanstar, but if he fights over Violetkit, then one of two things happen; a. He fails and looks even weaker to his clan b. He succeeds and he still looks bad because he's able to save a random, strange kit and not their apprentices from the rogues And he did end up attacking the Kin soon after anyway to try to take back the cats that he lost.
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Post by Haze on Mar 9, 2019 20:44:03 GMT -5
So yes, Rowanclaw would drive away Skyclan too.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 9, 2019 20:53:53 GMT -5
So yes, Rowanclaw would drive away Skyclan too. Here’s the difference. If Rowanstar did attack Skyclan, his clanmates would have been angry with him. But somehow Tigerstar attacks them and he’s completely respected and loved? Rowanstar was planning on attacking Skyclan in desperation to get his clan’s respect back. But Tigerheart persuaded him not to and the clan hated Rowanstar for both planning to attack and not attacking at all. Literally in the next book, Tigerstar invades Skyclan’s camp and nobody bats an eye. That’s my problem. Rowanstar would be hated either way. Tigerheart is loved either way. It’s literally hypocritical. Even so in the end, Rowanstar is the one respecting and being grateful to Skyclan before he dies. But he’s going to put Shadowclan first, and support his son when he is in Starclan.
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