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Post by Brindlefern on Mar 9, 2019 20:59:15 GMT -5
So yes, Rowanclaw would drive away Skyclan too. Guess I forgot about that part. Honestly TRS is so forgettable to me for the most part outside the infuriating stuff.
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Post by copperfur on Mar 10, 2019 3:45:14 GMT -5
Tbh, I'm on the fence regarding Rowanclaw. If he was such a good leader, where did the stubbornness come from that he tore the sisters apart (just because of a prophecy that may or may not have been about them) ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 8:27:17 GMT -5
While Rowanstar wasn't the best leader (regarding him and Bramblestar separating the kits thanks to Needletail), I feel like he deserves better as a good shout-out in The Broken Code than all the garbage flung at him in A Vision Of Shadows.
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Post by Dancing_Totodile on Mar 10, 2019 10:41:33 GMT -5
He didn't deserve what happened to him.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 10, 2019 13:46:07 GMT -5
Tbh, I'm on the fence regarding Rowanclaw. If he was such a good leader, where did the stubbornness come from that he tore the sisters apart (just because of a prophecy that may or may not have been about them) ? I think it was part of being viewed as weak since Needletail essentially put him on the spot.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 13:52:19 GMT -5
Tbh, I'm on the fence regarding Rowanclaw. If he was such a good leader, where did the stubbornness come from that he tore the sisters apart (just because of a prophecy that may or may not have been about them) ? I think it was part of being viewed as weak since Needletail essentially put him on the spot. A Leader should be able to stand their ground against an apprentice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 14:02:06 GMT -5
Rowanclaw drived away a kit, Violetkit to be exact, and that after he separated the sisters. With is kinda hilarious because Tigerheart was the one together with Tawnypelt that convinced Rowanclaw to take her back after she abandon the kin. The context of this being that Needlepaw and the other apprentices were already leaving and Needlepaw was demanding Violetkit come with her. Not a good look for Rowanstar, but if he fights over Violetkit, then one of two things happen; a. He fails and looks even weaker to his clan b. He succeeds and he still looks bad because he's able to save a random, strange kit and not their apprentices from the rogues And he did end up attacking the Kin soon after anyway to try to take back the cats that he lost. It seriously wouldn't of been that hard to allow Violetkit within Shadowclan. The apprentices are largely outnumbered and too young to fight the Warriors of Shadowclan. Rowanstar could of easily ordered Violetkit to be herded back into the Nursery. Violetkit already had a Shadowclan adoptive mother and siblings. Instead, he essentially banishes Violetkit with a group of apprentices - Who themselves are too young to have any parenting experience. Violetkit could very easily be killed out in the unknown wilderness, with no camp or warriors to protect her. Why is Violetkit being a "random, strange" kit got to do with anything? She can't control anything about her birth - There's more Non-Clan borns then ever. A recent deputy was even a former kittypet. Even Shadowclan would probably consider it more honourable to fight for a kit's safety, then to obey the demands of an apprentice, and basically an innocent kit. That's Oakstar levels of bad - No actually worse. Because Oakstar at least sent them with a caring parent, not a bunch of inexperienced restless teens. Who could easily neglect to look after her. Even the closest one to her, Needlepaw, its manipulative and sees Violetkit more like a trophy.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 10, 2019 15:40:09 GMT -5
lol ignore my post i replied to the wrong thing
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 10, 2019 15:52:00 GMT -5
The context of this being that Needlepaw and the other apprentices were already leaving and Needlepaw was demanding Violetkit come with her. Not a good look for Rowanstar, but if he fights over Violetkit, then one of two things happen; a. He fails and looks even weaker to his clan b. He succeeds and he still looks bad because he's able to save a random, strange kit and not their apprentices from the rogues And he did end up attacking the Kin soon after anyway to try to take back the cats that he lost. It seriously wouldn't of been that hard to allow Violetkit within Shadowclan. The apprentices are largely outnumbered and too young to fight the Warriors of Shadowclan. Rowanstar could of easily ordered Violetkit to be herded back into the Nursery. Violetkit already had a Shadowclan adoptive mother and siblings. Instead, he essentially banishes Violetkit with a group of apprentices - Who themselves are too young to have any parenting experience. Violetkit could very easily be killed out in the unknown wilderness, with no camp or warriors to protect her. Why is Violetkit being a "random, strange" kit got to do with anything? She can't control anything about her birth - There's more Non-Clan borns then ever. A recent deputy was even a former kittypet. Even Shadowclan would probably consider it more honourable to fight for a kit's safety, then to obey the demands of an apprentice, and basically an innocent kit. That's Oakstar levels of bad - No actually worse. Because Oakstar at least sent them with a caring parent, not a bunch of inexperienced restless teens. Who could easily neglect to look after her. Even the closest one to her, Needlepaw, its manipulative and sees Violetkit more like a trophy. Violetkit being a random, strange kit is important because she's a paltry consolation prize compared to fighting the apprentices. As outnumbered as they may have been, the seed of rebellion had already been planted and nothing short of killing them or imprisoning them would have worked. If Rowanstar had indeed fought and bled for her, it'd have either resulted in keeping around the apprentices to continue spreading their mutiny throughout the camp or it would have ended with the apprentices leaving anyway and him getting the question "How can you save an outsider kit and not our own apprentices?" The difference between Oakstar and Rowanstar is that Rowanstar actually led an attack immediately thereafter to attempt to recover the cats he had lost.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 16:28:59 GMT -5
It seriously wouldn't of been that hard to allow Violetkit within Shadowclan. The apprentices are largely outnumbered and too young to fight the Warriors of Shadowclan. Rowanstar could of easily ordered Violetkit to be herded back into the Nursery. Violetkit already had a Shadowclan adoptive mother and siblings. Instead, he essentially banishes Violetkit with a group of apprentices - Who themselves are too young to have any parenting experience. Violetkit could very easily be killed out in the unknown wilderness, with no camp or warriors to protect her. Why is Violetkit being a "random, strange" kit got to do with anything? She can't control anything about her birth - There's more Non-Clan borns then ever. A recent deputy was even a former kittypet. Even Shadowclan would probably consider it more honourable to fight for a kit's safety, then to obey the demands of an apprentice, and basically an innocent kit. That's Oakstar levels of bad - No actually worse. Because Oakstar at least sent them with a caring parent, not a bunch of inexperienced restless teens. Who could easily neglect to look after her. Even the closest one to her, Needlepaw, its manipulative and sees Violetkit more like a trophy. Violetkit being a random, strange kit is important because she's a paltry consolation prize compared to fighting the apprentices. As outnumbered as they may have been, the seed of rebellion had already been planted and nothing short of killing them or imprisoning them would have worked. If Rowanstar had indeed fought and bled for her, it'd have either resulted in keeping around the apprentices to continue spreading their mutiny throughout the camp or it would have ended with the apprentices leaving anyway and him getting the question "How can you save an outsider kit and not our own apprentices?" The difference between Oakstar and Rowanstar is that Rowanstar actually led an attack immediately thereafter to attempt to recover the cats he had lost. Why would he possibly need to go to such extreme measures? Rowanstar isn't required to start a fall out bloodshed to get 1 kit back. It's simple. Literally, all he needs to do is order a warrior to grab Violetkit away from Needlepaw and put her back into the Nursery. Considering Needlepaw was already physically hauling Violetkit away, some force is justified. The apprentices have already made the choice to leave, Shadowclan preventing them from taking a kit wouldn't change much. They're outnumbered and I'm sure they're smart enough to know they can't fight the Whole of Shadowclan. Ones like Sleekpaw wouldn't be willing to fight for Violetkit anyway. Probably the only possible one being Needlepaw. And even if she's stupid enough to use violence - She's already decided to leave. Shadowclan doesn't need to imprison or kill them. If the apprentices' decision to use violence, Shadowclan will just chase them out. This can quite easily done without killing anyone. Rowanstar could of used that moment to somewhat redeem himself after he separated Violetkit from Thunderclan/Twigkit- To stop treating Violetkit like a prize. Yet he coutuins his garage treatment of this innocent kit and lets her be taken away a 2nd time, basically exiling and endangering her - By letting apprentices, who are too young to be parents to raise her and take her into dangerous territory. They could very easily neglect her and allow her die. Violetkit has a adoptive mother and siblings in Shadowclan, for goodness sake. Does Rowanstar not even consider that? No, he doesn't. He doesn't even consider them at all.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 10, 2019 16:36:23 GMT -5
Violetkit being a random, strange kit is important because she's a paltry consolation prize compared to fighting the apprentices. As outnumbered as they may have been, the seed of rebellion had already been planted and nothing short of killing them or imprisoning them would have worked. If Rowanstar had indeed fought and bled for her, it'd have either resulted in keeping around the apprentices to continue spreading their mutiny throughout the camp or it would have ended with the apprentices leaving anyway and him getting the question "How can you save an outsider kit and not our own apprentices?" The difference between Oakstar and Rowanstar is that Rowanstar actually led an attack immediately thereafter to attempt to recover the cats he had lost. Why would he possibly need to go to such extreme measures? Rowanstar isn't required to start a fall out bloodshed to get 1 kit back. It's simple. Literally, all he needs to do is order a warrior to grab Violetkit away from Needlepaw and put her back into the Nursery. Considering Needlepaw was already physically hauling Violetkit away, some force is justified. The apprentices have already made the choice to leave, Shadowclan preventing them from taking a kit wouldn't change much. They're outnumbered and I'm sure they're smart enough to know they can't fight the Whole of Shadowclan. Ones like Sleekpaw wouldn't be willing to fight for Violetkit anyway. Probably the only possible one being Needlepaw. And even if she's stupid enough to use violence - She's already decided to leave. Shadowclan doesn't need to imprison or kill them. If the apprentices' decision to use violence, Shadowclan will just chase them out. This can quite easily done without killing anyone. I’d be inclined to agree with you, but by that point it seemed even the warriors wouldn’t have listened to Rowanstar if he did order for Violetkit to be taken back. That, and Needlepaw was the one to find Violetkit. Perhaps the warriors would have preferred Violetkit stay with Needlepaw if they didn’t find her all that important or wanted. The books go far to make every action Rowanstar does be disliked and judged harshly by his clan, whether it was right or wrong.
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Post by vectoring34 on Mar 10, 2019 16:39:21 GMT -5
Violetkit being a random, strange kit is important because she's a paltry consolation prize compared to fighting the apprentices. As outnumbered as they may have been, the seed of rebellion had already been planted and nothing short of killing them or imprisoning them would have worked. If Rowanstar had indeed fought and bled for her, it'd have either resulted in keeping around the apprentices to continue spreading their mutiny throughout the camp or it would have ended with the apprentices leaving anyway and him getting the question "How can you save an outsider kit and not our own apprentices?" The difference between Oakstar and Rowanstar is that Rowanstar actually led an attack immediately thereafter to attempt to recover the cats he had lost. Why would he possibly need to go to such extreme measures? Rowanstar isn't required to start a fall out bloodshed to get 1 kit back. It's simple. Literally, all he needs to do is order a warrior to grab Violetkit away from Needlepaw and put her back into the Nursery. Considering Needlepaw was already physically hauling Violetkit away, some force is justified. The apprentices have already made the choice to leave, Shadowclan preventing them from taking a kit wouldn't change much. They're outnumbered and I'm sure they're smart enough to know they can't fight the Whole of Shadowclan. Ones like Sleekpaw wouldn't be willing to fight for Violetkit anyway. Probably the only possible one being Needlepaw. And even if she's stupid enough to use violence - She's already decided to leave. Shadowclan doesn't need to imprison or kill them. If the apprentices' decision to use violence, Shadowclan will just chase them out. This can quite easily done without killing anyone. The apprentices were smart enough to know that no one would prevent them from leaving because there's not enough resolve for it. The moment things turn to violence, the apprentices win regardless. They CAN fight the whole of Shadowclan because the whole of Shadowclan doesn't want to hurt them; they have no such compunctions, however. Even if Rowanstar did chase them out, the immediate question would still be why he was only able to save Violetkit instead of saving them all when he fights.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 16:46:42 GMT -5
Why would he possibly need to go to such extreme measures? Rowanstar isn't required to start a fall out bloodshed to get 1 kit back. It's simple. Literally, all he needs to do is order a warrior to grab Violetkit away from Needlepaw and put her back into the Nursery. Considering Needlepaw was already physically hauling Violetkit away, some force is justified. The apprentices have already made the choice to leave, Shadowclan preventing them from taking a kit wouldn't change much. They're outnumbered and I'm sure they're smart enough to know they can't fight the Whole of Shadowclan. Ones like Sleekpaw wouldn't be willing to fight for Violetkit anyway. Probably the only possible one being Needlepaw. And even if she's stupid enough to use violence - She's already decided to leave. Shadowclan doesn't need to imprison or kill them. If the apprentices' decision to use violence, Shadowclan will just chase them out. This can quite easily done without killing anyone. I’d be inclined to agree with you, but by that point it seemed even the warriors wouldn’t have listened to Rowanstar if he did order for Violetkit to be taken back. That, and Needlepaw was the one to find Violetkit. Perhaps the warriors would have preferred Violetkit stay with Needlepaw if they didn’t find her all that important or wanted. The books go far to make every action Rowanstar does be disliked and judged harshly by his clan, whether it was right or wrong. Needlepaw "merely finding" Violetkit doesn't give ownership of her - She's an apprentice, not old enough to be a mother. Violetkit already in the care/custody of Pinenose, an actual Queen - She's the one allowing Violetkit to sleep in her nest, living with her in the Nursery,caring for her 24/7, etc. Pinenose is putting in the hard work, so she's Violetkit's guardian/Adoptive mother. Needlepaw occasionally having conversations and being a manipulative friend, isn't "rasing" Violetkit. Just because an apprentice acts as a kit's friend, doesn't mean they have any rights when it comes to major decisions like forcing Violetkit into exile with her. She's only putting Violetkit's every life in danger, considering she's not even an adult herself and placing her in dangerous/unknown territories, far less safe then Shadowclan camp.
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 10, 2019 16:50:33 GMT -5
I’d be inclined to agree with you, but by that point it seemed even the warriors wouldn’t have listened to Rowanstar if he did order for Violetkit to be taken back. That, and Needlepaw was the one to find Violetkit. Perhaps the warriors would have preferred Violetkit stay with Needlepaw if they didn’t find her all that important or wanted. The books go far to make every action Rowanstar does be disliked and judged harshly by his clan, whether it was right or wrong. Needlepaw "merely finding" Violetkit doesn't give ownership of her - She's an apprentice, not old enough to be a mother. Violetkit already in the care/custody of Pinenose, an actual Queen - She's the one allowing Violetkit to sleep in her nest, living with her in the Nursery,caring for her 24/7, etc. Pinenose is putting in the hard work, so she's Violetkit's guardian/Adoptive mother. Needlepaw occasionally having conversations and being a manipulative friend, isn't "rasing" Violetkit. Just because an apprentice acts as a kit's friend, doesn't mean they have any rights when it comes to major decisions like forcing Violetkit into exile with her. She's only putting Violetkit's every life in danger, considering she's not even an adult herself and placing her in dangerous/unknown territories, far less safe then Shadowclan camp. What I’m saying is that I doubt the warriors of Shadowclan see it that way. Pinenose, at least in Violetshine’s eyes, never seemed to love her like her other kits. I doubt Pinenose would raise a ruckus if Needlepaw wanted to take her, sadly. Even if Rowanstar wanted to fight for Violetkit, I highly doubt he would have gotten support. This is a clan who watched a kit writhe in a fox trap without batting an eye simply because he was not clanborne. I doubt they’d show much more care for another non-clan borne kit, especially when most of the clan called for more brutality and never supported Rowanstar no matter how strong or right his decisions were.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 16:52:49 GMT -5
Why would he possibly need to go to such extreme measures? Rowanstar isn't required to start a fall out bloodshed to get 1 kit back. It's simple. Literally, all he needs to do is order a warrior to grab Violetkit away from Needlepaw and put her back into the Nursery. Considering Needlepaw was already physically hauling Violetkit away, some force is justified. The apprentices have already made the choice to leave, Shadowclan preventing them from taking a kit wouldn't change much. They're outnumbered and I'm sure they're smart enough to know they can't fight the Whole of Shadowclan. Ones like Sleekpaw wouldn't be willing to fight for Violetkit anyway. Probably the only possible one being Needlepaw. And even if she's stupid enough to use violence - She's already decided to leave. Shadowclan doesn't need to imprison or kill them. If the apprentices' decision to use violence, Shadowclan will just chase them out. This can quite easily done without killing anyone. The apprentices were smart enough to know that no one would prevent them from leaving because there's not enough resolve for it. The moment things turn to violence, the apprentices win regardless. They CAN fight the whole of Shadowclan because the whole of Shadowclan doesn't want to hurt them; they have no such compunctions, however. Even if Rowanstar did chase them out, the immediate question would still be why he was only able to save Violetkit instead of saving them all when he fights. This isn't about Rowanstar unable to prevent the apprentices willingly leave - It's about him exiling an innocent kit. What he actually did in canon, is even worse. Instead of saving a kit like he should have, he didn't save anyone. Also, the apprentices were called "traitors" and capable of making their own chooses. Serval Clanmates would be understanding of Rowanstar's order to prevent a kit being stolen, physically if the apprentice forces them to. It's the apprentice' choose if they want to react violently to their attempted crime of stealing a kit. If Rowanstar ordered Shadowclan to prevent a kit being stolen and endangered, I doubt anyone would consider that "wrong".
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 10, 2019 17:01:33 GMT -5
The apprentices were smart enough to know that no one would prevent them from leaving because there's not enough resolve for it. The moment things turn to violence, the apprentices win regardless. They CAN fight the whole of Shadowclan because the whole of Shadowclan doesn't want to hurt them; they have no such compunctions, however. Even if Rowanstar did chase them out, the immediate question would still be why he was only able to save Violetkit instead of saving them all when he fights. This isn't about Rowanstar unable to prevent the apprentices willingly leave - It's about him exiling an innocent kit. What he actually did in canon, is even worse. Instead of saving a kit like he should have, he didn't save anyone. Also, the apprentices were called "traitors" and capable of making their own chooses. Serval Clanmates would be understanding of Rowanstar's order to prevent a kit being stolen, physically if the apprentice forces them to. It's the apprentice' choose if they want to react violently to their attempted crime of stealing a kit. If Rowanstar ordered Shadowclan to prevent a kit being stolen and endangered, I doubt anyone would consider that "wrong". Again, I wish I could agree with you because that’s how it should be, but again this is a clan of cats who cared nothing of watching an outside blooded cat get hurt and mauled in a trap. These are warriors who wanted to revive Shadowclan’s darkest days of fear and battle. These are cats who would have found fault with any action Rowanstar took. These are cats I could easily see choosing to give up on Violetkit if it meant not harming or fighting their flesh and blood borne apprentices. Even if Rowanstar did order for Violetkit to be taken back, I just highly doubt the warriors would put her wellbeing over attacking their full blooded clanmates.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 17:20:24 GMT -5
This isn't about Rowanstar unable to prevent the apprentices willingly leave - It's about him exiling an innocent kit. What he actually did in canon, is even worse. Instead of saving a kit like he should have, he didn't save anyone. Also, the apprentices were called "traitors" and capable of making their own chooses. Serval Clanmates would be understanding of Rowanstar's order to prevent a kit being stolen, physically if the apprentice forces them to. It's the apprentice' choose if they want to react violently to their attempted crime of stealing a kit. If Rowanstar ordered Shadowclan to prevent a kit being stolen and endangered, I doubt anyone would consider that "wrong". Again, I wish I could agree with you because that’s how it should be, but again this is a clan of cats who cared nothing of watching an outside blooded cat get hurt and mauled in a trap. These are warriors who wanted to revive Shadowclan’s darkest days of fear and battle. These are cats who would have found fault with any action Rowanstar took. These are cats I could easily see choosing to give up on Violetkit if it meant not harming or fighting their flesh and blood borne apprentices. Even if Rowanstar did order for Violetkit to be taken back, I just highly doubt the warriors would put her wellbeing over attacking their full blooded clanmates. Shadowclan didn't want to go back their "darkest days" with the likes of Brokenstar and Tigerstar. If they did, once they discovered Darktail was similar to them, every Shadowclan cat would relish it. Instead, the vast majority instantly regretted, desperately trying to gets away, some even being executed for their escape attempts. When they mean glory days, I think it's more accurate to the likes of Blackstar, Nightstar, Cedarstar etc. Cats who weren't tyrants, but still ain't scared of battle. I'd argue there's a lot to be criticised in the Post-Firestar era of the Clans - Thunderclan basically runs all four Clans. It's even pointed out during Vison of Shadows, characters accusing Thunderclan going into other's business. Also, constantly ignoring borders to send "message patrols", even it's not necessary their problem. Like when Firestar thought he could casually go to Windclan camp and "ask about Ashfur's death" - That's never been a thing before. In earlier series, if cats mysteriously died, Leaders wouldn't risk entire wars just to "seek justice for 1 death".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 17:33:10 GMT -5
Even if we don't physically see much of Rowanstar's weak leadership - I'm still inclined to believe it. I'm not just going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume Rowanstar is actually a good leader and everyone else is being "stupid". Almost Every character from: The dumbest to smartest, youngest to oldest, peaceful to aggressive, etc. unanimously agree that Rowanstar is cowardly. Even the likes of Firestar and Blackstar in Starclan doubted him and there's a reason for that. Such strong Reputations don't manifest out of nothing like that. There's are many time gaps where Rowanstar's weak leadership could of taken place, which did happen at some point since the book themselves stated it.
Since the Erins are constantly drilling in that Rowanstar a weak leader - then that's what he's intended to be in the story. Even if they forget to "show don't tell" due to poor writing, that doesn't change what Rowanstar's character meant to be. The fan interpretation of Rowanstar being a "misunderstood", "Scapegoat", "Wrongly Criticised" etc. isn't supported in any canon. If this were true, it would be mentioned somewhere Rowanstar was being unfairly treated and it would be apart of his arc. Yet it isn't. It keeps on enforcing: He's a weak leader, he's a weak leader- By the authors themselves. And I'm going to believe them. Especially since this is the main series, generally agreed by the fandom to the highest form of canon.
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Post by mymerlincat on Mar 10, 2019 17:34:17 GMT -5
Even if we don't physically see much of Rowanstar's weak leadership - I'm still inclined to believe it. I'm not just going to assume Rowanstar is actually a good leader and everyone else is being "stupid". Almost Every character from: The dumbest to smartest, youngest to oldest, peaceful to aggressive, etc. unanimously agree that Rowanstar cowardly. Even the likes of Firestar and Blackstar in Starclan doubted in and There's a reason for that. Such strong Reputations don't manifest out of anything like that. There's are many time gaps where Rowanstar's weak leadership could of taken place like it's stated to be in the books themselves. Since the Erins are constantly drilling in that Rowanstar a weak leader - then that's what he's intended to be in the story. Even if they forget to "show don't tell" due to poor writing, that doesn't change what Rowanstar meat to be. The fan interpretation of Rowanstar being a "misunderstood", "Scapegoat", "Wrongly Criticised" etc. isn't supported in any canon. If this were true, it would be mentioned somewhere Rowanstar was being unfairly treated and it would be apart of his arc. Get it isn't. It keeps on being enforce: He's a weak leader, he's a weak leader- By the authors themselves. And I'm going to believe them. I agree, I find it pretty evident that Rowanstar was a weak leader, the debate for me is whether he deserved what happened to him.
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Post by Papillon on Mar 10, 2019 17:54:47 GMT -5
Just because you're honorable and a good cat doesn't mean you're suitable to be a leader. I don't hate Rowanstar, far from it, but he has never been a good leader. He's average at best. He would've been better just staying as a senior warrior like Thornclaw or Brackenfur are, still being respected and looked up to by your other clanmates but not exactly being a leader. Heck I would've even preferred he died when he was deputy because at least then his character wouldn't have been destroyed
Blackstar held together a clan after what Tigerclaw did, still had a clan together after he resigned his name to Blackfoot when Sol came, still had his clan and authority even when he himself stopped believing in StarClan. And he still was a more respected leader despite his vicious past with Brokenstar and Tigerstar. There's no excuse for Rowanstar not being able to take authority back especially over an apprentice of all things
Even before ShadowClan splits up and Rowanstar dies, his clanmates were already looking to Tigerheart for support and as a steady presence. In the wiki it even says "He feels torn between supporting Rowanstar, and trying to lead his Clanmates, as they had only seemed to take orders from him." And only after Tigerheart left did Rowanstar disband ShadowClan because he admits he can't lead without his son.
The really isn't a way imo to claim that Rowanstar was a good leader or better than Tigerheart has been especially since Rowanclaw says he'd do the same thing Tigerheart is doing in the beginning of TRS. The fact StarClan took away his lives is saying something. If they thought he could have led and saved them at all, they would have advised him instead (even in a vague af way as they do) and not taken them away. I know Rowanstar is a good character and didn't deserve what happened at all. He's very kind, he's a good warrior, he's sensible, but that doesn't mean you just automatically possess leadership skills which he clearly doesn't. The biggest thing being that he does not have confidence in himself. He didn't give up his clan because it was the right choice. He gave it up because he couldn't lead
Even if all of this is authors being biased and trying to make Tigerheart look a special and perfect (which it could be, idc), it doesn't change the fact that Rowanstar just isn't good at leading an entire clan. He's a weak leader, that doesn't mean he's a weak cat
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Post by Moonblazer on Mar 10, 2019 18:14:11 GMT -5
Just because you're honorable and a good cat doesn't mean you're suitable to be a leader. I don't hate Rowanstar, far from it, but he has never been a good leader. He's average at best. He would've been better just staying as a senior warrior like Thornclaw or Brackenfur are, still being respected and looked up to by your other clanmates but not exactly being a leader. Heck I would've even preferred he died when he was deputy because at least then his character wouldn't have been destroyed Blackstar held together a clan after what Tigerclaw did, still had a clan together after he resigned his name to Blackfoot when Sol came, still had his clan and authority even when he himself stopped believing in StarClan. And he still was a more respected leader despite his vicious past with Brokenstar and Tigerstar. There's no excuse for Rowanstar not being able to take authority back especially over an apprentice of all things Even before ShadowClan splits up and Rowanstar dies, his clanmates were already looking to Tigerheart for support and as a steady presence. In the wiki it even says "He feels torn between supporting Rowanstar, and trying to lead his Clanmates, as they had only seemed to take orders from him." And only after Tigerheart left did Rowanstar disband ShadowClan because he admits he can't lead without his son. The really isn't a way imo to claim that Rowanstar was a good leader or better than Tigerheart has been especially since Rowanclaw says he'd do the same thing Tigerheart is doing in the beginning of TRS. The fact StarClan took away his lives is saying something. If they thought he could have led and saved them at all, they would have advised him instead (even in a vague af way as they do) and not taken them away. I know Rowanstar is a good character and didn't deserve what happened at all. He's very kind, he's a good warrior, he's sensible, but that doesn't mean you just automatically possess leadership skills which he clearly doesn't. The biggest thing being that he does not have confidence in himself. He didn't give up his clan because it was the right choice. He gave it up because he couldn't lead Even if all of this is authors being biased and trying to make Tigerheart look a special and perfect (which it could be, idc), it doesn't change the fact that Rowanstar just isn't good at leading an entire clan. He's a weak leader, that doesn't mean he's a weak cat If this is the case, then I truly wished they could have depicted Rowanstar developing to become a stronger leader. That would have been a far more interesting and heartfelt arc than what we got with Tigerheart. My biggest issue is that as deputy he showed 0 signs of lacking leadership abilities. In Bramblestar's Storm, he wasn't doing bad. He was no different than leaders who many deem to be pretty great leaders. There were no instances that showed him developing into some cowardly and weak leader. It was just out of nowhere, that the warriors could never be satisfied with his orders. If they had showed me moments of Rowanstar genuinely making idiotic, savage and code-breaking choices, I would agree with him being a bad leader. But he promoted talking over pointless bloodshed, he demanded Tigerheart be prepared for leadership and gave him good advice. He has the same traits of leaders like Firestar and Bluestar, who preferred fairness and honor over battle and bloodshed. Above all, ShadowClan needed something like that. After constant thirst for battle and hardships, it was so refeshing to see a leader like Rowanstar for ShadowClan. And they just completely destroyed him. I respect your opinions, and Mellow's as well that you do not believe he was a good or strong leader, but I personally see the opposite. I think he would have made a fantastic leader and that he was not given the chance he deserved. He was ready, and always had strength as a deputy and warrior. There is no reason to change that as a leader.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Mar 10, 2019 19:12:28 GMT -5
I think it was part of being viewed as weak since Needletail essentially put him on the spot. A Leader should be able to stand their ground against an apprentice. It wasn't just her thought. His whole clan probably would have thought him weak if he didn't do it. Shadowclan just has a lot of issues they need to figure out. I think we can at least all agree on that, considering time and time again they choose bullies over honor
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Post by copperfur on Mar 10, 2019 19:32:52 GMT -5
I'm sorry for sparking a debate. I haven't gotten too far into AVOS; only finished the second book last night. So I was just curious more than anything.
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