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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 13:20:09 GMT -5
Leafpool went out with Crowfeather, breaking two codes. She didn't listen to her mentor's warnings about her feelings, and ran away. But she came back, and gave birth to the Three. She took advantage of Squirrelflight, but only because TC needed a medicine cat. Cinderpelt was gone, and I feel she did the right thing, even if she did hurt cats. She messed up, but she faced the consequences. Her kits were furious with her for years, and she dropped her rank as a medicine cat, which was a waste of her training if this was permanent. But she took the blame when everyone was angry with Squirrelflight, and since then she's been helping SkyClan & ShadowClan, even standing up to those who make foolish choices. Imo, Leafpool truly learned from her mistakes, and I think it's unfair that fans are still angry with her. She has been loyal since, putting her Clan above herself. Imo, she deserves forgiveness, and it seems like she's truly moved on from Crowfeather, too.
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Post by Viperstrike on Feb 14, 2019 14:20:05 GMT -5
yes. i dont understand why people continue to hate leafpool for something that happened almost ten years ago. it happened and there's nothing that can be changed now. her clan forgave her and she's done nothing but work hard since. there's no point in hanging onto the past in a case like this imo
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
สแดษชษดสแดแดา ๐
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by สแดษชษดสแดแดา ๐ on Feb 14, 2019 14:21:47 GMT -5
ย ย ย ย No. She didn't earn any of it.
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Post by scint on Feb 14, 2019 14:27:34 GMT -5
Honestly, if she was given an actual punishment then yes she would. But in my personal opinion, no.
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Post by Fireleap on Feb 14, 2019 14:48:57 GMT -5
She got her role back, Lionblaze and Jayfeather tolerate her (I forgot if they actually forgave her), and Hollyleaf forgave her before she died. She faced the scorn of her clan and the others, but she completely deserved it. What she doesnโt deserve (and by extension Squirrelflight) is her kits forgiveness, considering both of them lied to the Three, Crowfeather and Bramblestar, and ThunderClan. Leafpool is awful and should have been exiled.
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Post by Cheetahstar on Feb 14, 2019 15:18:10 GMT -5
Leafpool is the worsssttt
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#add8e6
Name Colour
*Ravenpaw*
Warrior Fanatic
*reads books in a corner*
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Post by *Ravenpaw* on Feb 14, 2019 16:27:43 GMT -5
She should have been actually punished. Taking away a role and still in the clan? That's no punishment. I mostly hate the fact she got away with breaking two codes and ruining her sister's life.
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Post by Viperstrike on Feb 14, 2019 17:02:51 GMT -5
No offense, but I don't understand this fandom's obsession with punishment. It's one thing when a character does something that effects another person's safety and well being, but many people seem to call for punishment over the slightest mistakes. Yes, Leafpool broke the warrior code but she didn't do anything morally wrong. There's nothing immoral about falling in love with a cat from another Clan, and if she wants to leave she should have the right. She didn't know that badgers were going to attack ThunderClan, and that Cinderpelt was going to die. The moment she learned that though, she decided to return home because she realized they needed her. She felt bad for leaving, and made sure to make up for her actions.
As for Squirrelflight, she knew what she was doing by agreeing to take Leafpool's kits and lying to Bramblestar. I'm not trying to blame Squirrelflight here, but some people act like Squirrelflight was forced into it against her will and had no other options whatsoever. If anyone is to blame in this situation, it is Yellowfang as she's the one who cohersed Squirrelflight by lying to her, saying it would be the only way she would ever have a family.
As for punishment, what other punishment is there than what she got? She lost the job that she loved, and the trust of her Clanmates and children. She had to deal with the death of her daughter twice, once belivering her daughter died hating her, and then had to go on being hated by her remaining children. And on top of that, cats from other Clans who she had never even done anything to hated her. Over time, they were eventually able to look past this and forgive her, allowing her her job and reputation back. I don't understand what more people want from her. Exile, as if Firestar would even allow for such a thing? That's his daughter, and even if she wasn't he isn't that type of guy. Firestar is extremely forgiving, and would only call for exile at the last resort. Besides, exile isn't even a punishment for this sort of thing. The only cat who was ever exiled for being in a forbidden relationship is Mapleshade, and I would say it was more so because her mate was Appledusk than anything else. Even then most people seem to have a lot of problems with how Mapleshade was treated so I think it's weird people want Leafpool to be treated the same way. No one else has ever really been punished for this sort of thing. If anything, many of the cats went on to live successful lives.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 17:38:13 GMT -5
I mean itโs not my place to say. Itโs up to the clan. And they did so, end of story in my opinion.
I feel the same with Breezepelt- some of the clan did and some of the clan still donโt. And thatโs that. End of story.
If weโre talking about in a writing stance- as in โshould have the authors caused her to be forgiven?โ Well, I mean, sure, if it makes sense- Firestar forgived her- makes sense. Squirrelflight forgived her- makes sense. The rest of the clan forgived her- I mean they forgave Bluestar and Graystripe, whatโs different with Leafpool? Theyโre a forgiving clan. Makes sense.
To claim that she shouldnโt have been forgiven will also assume ThunderClanโs character would be dramatically different. Which itโs not. What happened maked sense and as much as people might hate her we canโt twist reality to fit their hatred.
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Post by Haze on Feb 14, 2019 18:30:01 GMT -5
The worst crime was that of all cats that she could had chosen to be in a forbidden relationship it needed to be Crowfeather... I guess that was punishment enough.
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 14, 2019 18:53:38 GMT -5
I don't get the fandom's obsession with still wanting her to suffer. Like, it has been years since she committed her crime in universe. Her kids were brought up by her sister, with her supporting them from afar, and her trying to do what's best. She also never screwed up her duties after having kits
People forget that she never intended on going back to Thunderclan, so they were going to be rogues. Thunderclan would have been worse off if she didn't come back and they were left without a medicine cat than her birthing three competent kits.
I think she faced punishment in her own way.
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Post by Sundance on Feb 14, 2019 21:30:38 GMT -5
-cracks knuckles-
Yes, absolutely!
I am fully in support of every action Leafpool has made in her life.
She fell in love, that's no crime. The tyrannical society she lives in might turn their noses up at anyone who wants to breed with filthy outsiders (alternate - incest, yuck!), but that's daft of them if you ask me.
Leafpool left with Crowfeather, to live happily together, because she knew Cinderpelt, a fully-functioning medicine cat who could take on another apprentice, would remain in ThunderClan. Given that, I don't understand how people think her actions were selfish. Should she -- or anyone, really -- be forced to stay in a place that makes them miserable and where they're not necessarily needed?
It's an unfortunate coincidence that Cinderpelt died when Leafpool was planning to leave -- but also one that couldn't have been foreseen. Except by Cinderpelt, who purposefully didn't tell Leafpool that her death was imminent. As far as Leafpool knew, there would be no repercussions to her leaving, and when she found out there would be? She came back. She gave up the love of her life to continue serving ThunderClan.
And when it comes to Leafpool giving up her kits, and then lying to them about their parentage ...
What other choice did she have? StarClan -- specifically, Feathertail and Yellowfang -- cats with seemingly infinite wisdom, said they needed to stay in the Clan, and have Squirrelflight raise them. Leafpool and the kits could be exiled from the Clan for her breaking the code if she told the truth about them.
I also want to add that many people blame Leafpool for "ruining Squirrelflight's life" when this ... really was not the case. Yellowfang and Feathertail implored Squirrelflight to raise the kits. Leafpool didn't even help convince her sister. I can't find a single line of text that suggests Leafpool told Squirrelflight not to let Brambleclaw know about the situation either. And when heat came on Squirrelflight, Leafpool defended her & tried to take the blame.
Regardless, I understand why the Three would be angry with her, and they have a right to not forgive her. But I think it would be silly for them (and the Clan) to do that. I also think Leafpool has certainly suffered enough. She lost Crowfeather, faced her children's hatred and her clanmates' disapproval, and resigned as medicine cat, the job she loved, for many moons. Consider that time served, punishment done. She deserves all the forgiveness in the world in my opinion.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
สแดษชษดสแดแดา ๐
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by สแดษชษดสแดแดา ๐ on Feb 14, 2019 21:44:05 GMT -5
Her actions did indirectly danger people and anytime you get into a forbidden romance, it can possibly lead to a fate like death due to battles and so on. Leafpool was so distracted by Crowfeather she messed up herbs, not to mention her actions and lack of defense for her sister against StarClan did lead to deaths and harm. She harmed a lot of people. People can try to blame Squirrelflight all they want, but in the end, it comes down to Leafpool accepting things over and over. It may take two to tango, but she never told Crowfeather the truth and just ugh.. She should have forever remained a warrior. She didn't earn anything back.
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Post by Brindlefern on Feb 14, 2019 21:46:42 GMT -5
Her actions did indirectly danger people and anytime you get into a forbidden romance, it can possibly lead to a fate like death due to battles and so on. Leafpool was so distracted by Crowfeather she messed up herbs, not to mention her actions and lack of defense for her sister against StarClan did lead to deaths and harm. She harmed a lot of people. People can try to blame Squirrelflight all they want, but in the end, it comes down to Leafpool accepting things over and over. It may take two to tango, but she never told Crowfeather the truth and just ugh.. She should have forever remained a warrior. She didn't earn anything back. Nobody here is blaming Squirrelflight at all??? But go off ig.
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Post by UnsightlyHeretic831 on Feb 14, 2019 21:50:04 GMT -5
Like I've said to various other characters, my fist to her face. She doesn't deserve her forgiveness. She ruined her sister's love relationship with Brambleclaw at the time when he found out, and Squirrelflight got in trouble. Why, Leafpool? Just... Why?
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 14, 2019 22:08:06 GMT -5
Like I've said to various other characters, my fist to her face. She doesn't deserve her forgiveness. She ruined her sister's love relationship with Brambleclaw at the time when he found out, and Squirrelflight got in trouble. Why, Leafpool? Just... Why? Things were ruined temporarily due to Bramblestar's hypocrisy (like he wasn't involved in a situation that made her dad lose one of her lives, but she HASN'T told her about). In the end, Squirrelflight is back with Bramblestar, a deputy, and a mother of her own kits. No one's life was completely ruined. Squirrelflight was not forced to take the kits, and knew what she was doing. Even without pressuring, I feel like she would have taken them because her bond with Leafpool was strong (and Leafpool tried to take the blame off her sister, taking the full blame). Once again, she planned to leave the clan for good with Crowfeather. It's not like she planned for it to be a forbidden relationship, especially since she shouldn't be forced to stay somewhere when she'd be happy elsewhere. She only came back because she knew Thunderclan would need her
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
สแดษชษดสแดแดา ๐
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by สแดษชษดสแดแดา ๐ on Feb 14, 2019 22:10:05 GMT -5
Her actions did indirectly danger people and anytime you get into a forbidden romance, it can possibly lead to a fate like death due to battles and so on. Leafpool was so distracted by Crowfeather she messed up herbs, not to mention her actions and lack of defense for her sister against StarClan did lead to deaths and harm. She harmed a lot of people. People can try to blame Squirrelflight all they want, but in the end, it comes down to Leafpool accepting things over and over. It may take two to tango, but she never told Crowfeather the truth and just ugh.. She should have forever remained a warrior. She didn't earn anything back. Nobody here is blaming Squirrelflight at all??? But go off ig. Who said I was going off? Like you're getting upset for no reason.
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Post by Brindlefern on Feb 14, 2019 22:11:29 GMT -5
Nobody here is blaming Squirrelflight at all??? But go off ig. Who said I was going off? Like you're getting upset for no reason. I wasn't even upset when I replied to you. :/
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Post by *Ottersplash* on Feb 14, 2019 22:13:18 GMT -5
I also want to point out I still don't understand why it had to be a secret? Like, WindClan and ThunderClan shouldn't have been that surprised. It's not like it was a secret that Leafpool and Crowfeather were mates and ran off together.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Feb 14, 2019 22:14:01 GMT -5
I think she does.
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Bisexual
#ffc5c5
Official Queen of Fan Clans
Name Colour
สแดษชษดสแดแดา ๐
Official ThunderClan & ElmClan Leader
Easing back in
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Post by สแดษชษดสแดแดา ๐ on Feb 14, 2019 22:14:31 GMT -5
Who said I was going off? Like you're getting upset for no reason. I wasn't even upset when I replied to you. :/ Punctuation and "go off ig" indicate you were. It was like really unnecessary to kinda point me out like that.
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Post by Brindlefern on Feb 14, 2019 22:18:07 GMT -5
I wasn't even upset when I replied to you. :/ Punctuation and "go off ig" indicate you were. It was like really unnecessary to kinda point me out like that. Well, I wasn't. It was more like I was baffled. But okay.
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Feb 14, 2019 22:33:38 GMT -5
I also want to point out I still don't understand why it had to be a secret? Like, WindClan and ThunderClan shouldn't have been that surprised. It's not like it was a secret that Leafpool and Crowfeather were mates and ran off together. Vicky had said that Firestar might've banished her and this is kind of implied in LW. And given the circumstances at the time, I think keeping it a secret was Leafpool's best option besides just leaving altogether (Leafpool even considers this after Squirrelflight hesitates to help). ThunderClan had been having tensions with WindClan and many cats feared that ThunderClan was becoming too mixed to the point where Mousefur called a Clan meeting. Cinderpelt and Sootfur had also recently died from a recent badger attack. Cats were also angry that Brambleclaw had been chosen for deputy despite him not having an apprentice and only accepted it because it came from StarClan. Had Leafpool revealed that she was not only pregnant, but pregnant with a WindClan cat's kits, there would've at least been tension and her validity as a medicine cat (and perhaps even Brambleclaw's deputyship) would've probably been put into question. After Firestar picks Brambleclaw to be his deputy, Mousefur says to him, "do you think you can do whatever you want?" I doubt Firestar would willingly punish his own daughter, but who's to say he would've even had much of a choice had Leafpool just told the truth sooner under such a difficult time in ThunderClan's history? Cats might've even questioned his authority and then it'd be the first arc all over again. When the truth finally came out, the kits were already fully grown and Leafpool had stepped down on her own, so this might be why there wasn't much backlash when Hollyleaf revealed the secret (well, that and she had done it publicly, thereby humiliating both ThunderClan and WindClan). I don't think what Leafpool did was right, but I do understand why. And now I kind of wish the series had gone down this route, just to see how it would've played out.
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Post by kinkajou on Feb 14, 2019 23:11:34 GMT -5
I also want to point out I still don't understand why it had to be a secret? Like, WindClan and ThunderClan shouldn't have been that surprised. It's not like it was a secret that Leafpool and Crowfeather were mates and ran off together. Vicky had said that Firestar might've banished her and this is kind of implied in LW. And given the circumstances at the time, I think keeping it a secret was Leafpool's best option besides just leaving altogether (Leafpool even considers this after Squirrelflight hesitates to help). ThunderClan had been having tensions with WindClan and many cats feared that ThunderClan was becoming too mixed to the point where Mousefur called a Clan meeting. Cinderpelt and Sootfur had also recently died from a recent badger attack. Cats were also angry that Brambleclaw had been chosen for deputy despite him not having an apprentice and only accepted it because it came from StarClan. Had Leafpool revealed that she was not only pregnant, but pregnant with a WindClan cat's kits, there would've at least been tension and her validity as a medicine cat (and perhaps even Brambleclaw's deputyship) would've probably been put into question. After Firestar picks Brambleclaw to be his deputy, Mousefur says to him, "do you think you can do whatever you want?" I doubt Firestar would willingly punish his own daughter, but who's to say he would've even had much of a choice had Leafpool just told the truth sooner under such a difficult time in ThunderClan's history? Cats might've even questioned his authority and then it'd be the first arc all over again. When the truth finally came out, the kits were already fully grown and Leafpool had stepped down on her own, so this might be why there wasn't much backlash when Hollyleaf revealed the secret (well, that and she had done it publicly, thereby humiliating both ThunderClan and WindClan). I don't think what Leafpool did was right, but I do understand why. And now I kind of wish the series had gone down this route, just to see how it would've played out. The thing is Leafpool and Crowfeather were mates, this was common knowledge. And pretty much all cats have kits with their mates. Why would Leafpool running off with Crowfeather not warrant exile, but being caught having kits would? It's like...the same thing. Shouldn't she have the same punishment weather she had kits or not? Like ok she wanted her kits to not be distrusted for being half-clan but I don't think exile is a realistic possibility, regardless of what Vicky said
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Post by ๐ฃ๐ฒ๐ท๐พ๐ฟ๐ฒ๐ฎ๐ต on Feb 14, 2019 23:27:51 GMT -5
Vicky had said that Firestar might've banished her and this is kind of implied in LW. And given the circumstances at the time, I think keeping it a secret was Leafpool's best option besides just leaving altogether (Leafpool even considers this after Squirrelflight hesitates to help). ThunderClan had been having tensions with WindClan and many cats feared that ThunderClan was becoming too mixed to the point where Mousefur called a Clan meeting. Cinderpelt and Sootfur had also recently died from a recent badger attack. Cats were also angry that Brambleclaw had been chosen for deputy despite him not having an apprentice and only accepted it because it came from StarClan. Had Leafpool revealed that she was not only pregnant, but pregnant with a WindClan cat's kits, there would've at least been tension and her validity as a medicine cat (and perhaps even Brambleclaw's deputyship) would've probably been put into question. After Firestar picks Brambleclaw to be his deputy, Mousefur says to him, "do you think you can do whatever you want?" I doubt Firestar would willingly punish his own daughter, but who's to say he would've even had much of a choice had Leafpool just told the truth sooner under such a difficult time in ThunderClan's history? Cats might've even questioned his authority and then it'd be the first arc all over again. When the truth finally came out, the kits were already fully grown and Leafpool had stepped down on her own, so this might be why there wasn't much backlash when Hollyleaf revealed the secret (well, that and she had done it publicly, thereby humiliating both ThunderClan and WindClan). I don't think what Leafpool did was right, but I do understand why. And now I kind of wish the series had gone down this route, just to see how it would've played out. The thing is Leafpool and Crowfeather were mates, this was common knowledge. And pretty much all cats have kits with their mates. Why would Leafpool running off with Crowfeather not warrant exile, but being caught having kits would? It's like...the same thing. Shouldn't she have the same punishment weather she had kits or not? Like ok she wanted her kits to not be distrusted for being half-clan but I don't think exile is a realistic possibility, regardless of what Vicky said Leafpool was a medicine cat and I think that's why no one thought better. Medicine cats aren't supposed to have kits, so they probably thought Leafpool hadn't actually mated with Crowfeather or maybe were even in extreme denial. If the latter, it would explain why everyone bought into the lie so easily. Perhaps they also thought that she couldn't even have kits. And notice how no one wanted to even talk about what had happened, especially not when Leafpool was ThunderClan's only medicine cat at the time. With everything that was going on, they probably just wanted to leave the past behind and then it all just came back at a certain Gathering. This just wasn't something they could've afforded to think about at the time, if we're to look at things from a certain perspective. Had Cinderpelt lived, things probably would've played out differently. At least when the truth actually came out, the Clan still had Jayfeather to be their medicine cat.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 8:32:04 GMT -5
ย ย ย ย Punctuation and "go off ig" indicate you were. It was like really unnecessary to kinda point me out like that. Well, I wasn't. It was more like I was baffled. But okay. Not to side with Rainleaf, but you have been a little snappy with your tone lately. I think that's what she meant. You were a little snappy with me as well on my Bumble x Rose topic, like saying I compared Bumblestripe to Finleap and Ashfur when I didn't. It just feels like you've been annoyed with people lately, and it kind of upsets/confuses them a little. What you said to Rainleaf wasn't really polite either, whether you meant it or not. You need to work on your tone because it can come off as rude to some people. Keep in mind that people deal with things in real life, and they don't want someone online acting rude to someone like that by telling them to "go off" over a topic of fictional book cats. It's uncalled for and disrespectful.
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Post by Brindlefern on Feb 15, 2019 11:14:08 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't. It was more like I was baffled. But okay. Not to side with Rainleaf, but you have been a little snappy with your tone lately. I think that's what she meant. You were a little snappy with me as well on my Bumble x Rose topic, like saying I compared Bumblestripe to Finleap and Ashfur when I didn't. It just feels like you've been annoyed with people lately, and it kind of upsets/confuses them a little. What you said to Rainleaf wasn't really polite either, whether you meant it or not. You need to work on your tone because it can come off as rude to some people. Keep in mind that people deal with things in real life, and they don't want someone online acting rude to someone like that by telling them to "go off" over a topic of fictional book cats. It's uncalled for and disrespectful. I think you're taking moments where I'm more passionate about a certain topic and misreading them as more angry than they actually are. I wasn't snappy in the Bumble x Rose topic at all. I wasn't even angry when I was replying in your thread. I apologize if it's just a misunderstanding but... if I was upset it'd be easy to tell once you figure out how I type. And I'm pretty fricking vocal about when I'm angry about something. But I wasn't snapping at anyone. That's just how I type. Me using "Go off ig" doesn't automatically mean I'm upset and I'd appreciate if folks didn't use that as a means that I am. I'm not upset with anyone nor do I have any reason to be ( Yet, but I try to keep that to myself). Also I never said you compared Bumblestripe to Assfur/Finleap, I was using an example.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 11:22:34 GMT -5
Not to side with Rainleaf, but you have been a little snappy with your tone lately. I think that's what she meant. You were a little snappy with me as well on my Bumble x Rose topic, like saying I compared Bumblestripe to Finleap and Ashfur when I didn't. It just feels like you've been annoyed with people lately, and it kind of upsets/confuses them a little. What you said to Rainleaf wasn't really polite either, whether you meant it or not. You need to work on your tone because it can come off as rude to some people. Keep in mind that people deal with things in real life, and they don't want someone online acting rude to someone like that by telling them to "go off" over a topic of fictional book cats. It's uncalled for and disrespectful. I think you're taking moments where I'm more passionate about a certain topic and misreading them as more angry than they actually are. I wasn't snappy in the Bumble x Rose topic at all. I wasn't even angry when I was replying in your thread. I apologize if it's just a misunderstanding but... if I was upset it'd be easy to tell once you figure out how I type. And I'm pretty fricking vocal about when I'm angry about something. But I wasn't snapping at anyone. That's just how I type. Me using "Go off ig" doesn't automatically mean I'm upset and I'd appreciate if folks didn't use that as a means that I am. I'm not upset with anyone nor do I have any reason to be ( Yet, but I try to keep that to myself). Also I never said you compared Bumblestripe to Assfur/Finleap, I was using an example.Like I said, it's your tone that makes it seem like you're annoyed with ppl. If it's just a misunderstanding then it's okay, but try to be careful with your words because I understand why Rainleaf was upset with your comment.
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Post by Brindlefern on Feb 15, 2019 11:30:28 GMT -5
I think you're taking moments where I'm more passionate about a certain topic and misreading them as more angry than they actually are. I wasn't snappy in the Bumble x Rose topic at all. I wasn't even angry when I was replying in your thread. I apologize if it's just a misunderstanding but... if I was upset it'd be easy to tell once you figure out how I type. And I'm pretty fricking vocal about when I'm angry about something. But I wasn't snapping at anyone. That's just how I type. Me using "Go off ig" doesn't automatically mean I'm upset and I'd appreciate if folks didn't use that as a means that I am. I'm not upset with anyone nor do I have any reason to be ( Yet, but I try to keep that to myself). Also I never said you compared Bumblestripe to Assfur/Finleap, I was using an example.Like I said, it's your tone that makes it seem like you're annoyed with ppl. If it's just a misunderstanding then it's okay, but try to be careful with your words because I understand why Rainleaf was upset with your comment. I don't like feeling like I have to hold my tongue just for folks to not misinterpret my tone wrong in text so I might fail on that note. >.>
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